>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight, david mccullough. his new bo is called "the greater journey: americans in paris." >> tell the story of what we are, what we've been through, what we've accplished and what we've failed to acmplish, what we've learned about pele who were here before we were, to whom we owe far more than we generally appreciate. i hope that i make up for failure that many people had when going to school in understanding the joy of history the pleasure of history. yes, we should know history

because it makes us better citizens. yes, we should know history because it will help in roles of leadership and responsibility. but we should also know our history because it's part of the experience of being alive. why seal yourself off from that other time? it would be as if you said there's going to be no more music in my life, there's going to be no more art or theater in my life or poetry or dance. >> rose: david mccullough for the hour, next. who beats the odds and comes out on top. but this isn't just a hollywood storyline. it's happening every day, all across america. every time a storefront opens. or the midnight oil is burned. or when someone chases a dream, not just a dollar. they are small business owners. so if you wanna root for a real hero, support small business. shop small.

captioning sponsored by rose communicaons from our studi in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: david mccullough is here. he has been called a master of the art of narrative history. he's twice won both the pulitzer prize and national book award. in 2006 he received the presidential medal of freedom, the nation's highest civilian award. his new book tells a sry of a group of adventurous americans who set off for paris in the 19th century. as he says, not all pioneers

went west. it's called "the greater journey: americans in paris." i'm very pleased tohave david mccullough back in this table. welcome. >> thank you, charlie, i'm very glad to be back. i feel most at home. >> rose: this table welcomes you at any time. so here's what happened,/assume mccullough wanted to spend time in paris so he sd "where's a sty?" nothing else. (laughs) >> well, no, charlie, it didn't rk tt way. as much as i would love to be able to say it was that simple. i have beeinterested inaris since i was probably 15 when my older brother came back and sat at the dinner table in pittsburgh, p.a., talking about his experiences in paris. and i then went over with m wife ralie in 1961.

>> rose: who this book is dedicated to. >> indeed. and i was with the u.s. information agency and we were on our way to morocco. i was specializing in the middle east and we had never been out of the country before. it was before jet travel. and we landed in paris after dark on a very cold february night raining like crazy. we checked into our hotel over in the left bank and went out and started walking in the rain at night in february. miserable, miserable night and we could not happier. and i've gone backsince several times because of work on my truman book, because of truman's experiences in world war i in france because of my work on the panama canal book because so much of that story so french. and a lot of the research for that subject was there in paris.

and then i went back again for adams because he and abigail were there for a long time and he played a crucial part during the revolutionary war. but what i really wanted to do was to take a look at a period which ry little hadeen done about. the adams/franklin/jefferson time had been worked over pretty well. including by me. >> rose: and hemingway. >> hemingway's been done up and down. and here was this 70-year gap as it were in which some of the most interesting and influential americans ever were there and were greatly affected by the experience. and that drew me. i also feel strongly and i felt it increasingly as i've thought re and more about the american

story that our history isn't ju abo generals and politicians. and that if we leave out the art, the music, the medicine, the realm of ideas, if we leave out educators and sculptors and architects we' leaving out much not only of the subje matter of our story, but the soul. >> rose: and the permanence of a civilization. >> exactly. and there's a wonderful quote from john kennedy which i can't say... that our power should not beust... our strength should not be just in our wealth or military. our strength should be in what we contribute to civilization. and i felt that i had the chance with this setting and this group of people that i could tell at

story i think a way that had never been done before. and people say well, that is very brave departure for you. well, it wasn't brave at all. i really was eager to do it. >> rose: okay, but what... >> and i've never had a betr time writing a book. >> rose: why? well, paris first of all. >> well, for one thing i could cast it as i wished. >> rose: yeah. >> with regular biography and history, prey much decided for you. it an obligatory line you have to follow you can't just side track some character because you think he bores you. with this will i could pick the people that i wanted to write about and i could have my own criteria for who ma the cut and who didn't. in this case it was did they go there specifically to lrn and to improve themselves in order to excel in their chosenld?

did they keep a diary or write letters? where they changed by the experience more an just improvement in their skills as painters or pianists or whatever? and what did they bring back? figuratively or literally. and did what they brought back matter? now, there are a lot of people that would qualify for that criteria. but you can't include them all otherwise it becomes a catalog. so i picked those people whose story seemed to me the most compelling and whose... and whose fulfillment of the dream truly mattered to our country. >> rose: you have said before that americans do t appreciate how ch their culture comes from france. >> we do not.

here we are a country where our capital city was designed by a frenchman, pierre l'enfant whose revolutionary war was won largely because of french financial backing and because of the presence of the french army. no people have no idea, for example, that the army under roe sham bow at the surrender of cornllis at yorktown was bigger than the army under washington we have a country that was doubled in size because of the louisiana purcse fromnapoleon we have a country where the welcoming symbol of wt we're about stands at the harbor of our greatest port and a gift from france. and all you have to do is look at a map of the country at all of the rivers and towns and cities and colleges and universities with fren names. now, we may not pronounce them exactly way the french do, but there they are.

i'm not a franco file and i'm not bilingual by any means. in fact, i don't speak french very well at all. i can read it a little bit. but that's not the point. was interested in those americans. and i'm very interested in paris. i've been going over...t took four years to dothis book and i've been going over regularly every year. rosa lee and i will go for a couple weeks. >> rose: always stay at the same hotel? >> not always but most often we stay in the hotel delouvre because that's where mark twain stayed, it's where hawthorne stayed, united states samuel b. moore stayed and it's flight the heart of... as you know, rht beside the louvre on one side an the palace royal on the over side. and we look out our window right up the avenue of the opera to the opera houses. it's exactly the view thas in

the end sheets at the back of the book. >> rose: oh, ye, there you go. >> and that image is taken from a postcard that my mother brought back from paris when she was seven years old in 1907. it was in our attic. >> reporter: let me touch several bases you have talked out. number one, when you decide this when you say "i found my subject what's the next step for you? >> the form. what's the form of the book. and once i have the form and i'm ready to go... >> rose: what's formmean? >> structurethe architecture. where does it begin? how does it end? where does it end? what are you going to leave out? every work of art, painting, nothing is in it by accident and at best nothing is in the book by accident. but al what's not in it is also not not in it by accident.

>> rose: that was choice. a choice. and once i had the form i thought i was off and running. when i first began writing books i had been an english major in college and i didn't know how you did this. that i should do all the research and then ite the ok. but i found that e best way for me, at lst, is to do the research up to a point. maybe enougho get me going. and then do the research and the writing when the book progresses. because when you start writing you realize what you don't know. >> rose: exactly. >> and therefore you can target your investigation, your research more efficiently. >> rose: it ner starts for me until i began to start th the writing whatever it is, you have to sit down and start the process before you can get any form. and then it sort of falls into place in an interesng w. >> right there. 's an old expression that you know very well "working your thoughts out on paper." >> rose: exactly. >> and that's what you're doing.

i've never undertaken a subject about which i knew a lot. i've never undertaken a subject wherein i feel that i'm an expert. if i were an expert wouldn't want to write the book. >> rose: so you... the book is a point of discovery for you, too. >> that's right. >> rose: you share as you try to... >> it's as if i'm going to another place, having an adventure for the first time and when i begin... you asked about how i feel. boy am i going to learn a lot. and th was cerinly case here. there was some characters that i never heard of. >> rose: so you got to know a whole range of personality? >> indeed, i did. >> rose: when you eage in this what bring use the most sasfaction? >> it's like being on a detective case, you get going. you get on a track and you want to know. curiosity is accelerateive, somebody said, by gravity. and you want to know more. and the thrill of getting closer to those people, i think that's

what i peels to me the most. that these were people who were as alive as we are. and who were as limited in their perspective as to what was going to come next as we are. no such thing as the foreseeable future. and i want to bring them back to life. and i want to bring them back to life so that they get the credit they're long overdue. >> rose: if a grandchild came to you and said "papa, i have no idea what i want to study in college." >> yes >> rose: would you say study literature or history or languages? >> yes. >> rose: all of the above? >> oh, yes. liberal arts education. it's the best thing you can have. if somebody wanted to become a journalist i woulday don't study journalism, studyarabic,

or study philosophy. study... i don't think tre's a subject of more importance to anne w assumes aol of leadership than history. >> ros history. >> it's essential. i think that all of our political... ambitious political people ought to be required to take a basic history course. a test the way you would to get into the ste department. >> rose: and you want it to be not just american history but the history around the world. >> world history. >> rose: you want to have a real sense of... >> cause and effect. >> rose: cause and effect. >> about responsibility. it's about... >> rose: action and reaction. >> exactly. but mostly it's aut human beings, human nature. george marshall was asked after he became... was secretary of state after truman appointed him secretary of state... >> rose: having been in charge of the army during world war ii. >> yes. and he was asked if he'd had a good education at the virginia military institute. he said "no, i didn't." they said "why not, sir?"

he said "we hadno history. and his point was that leaders have to understand history. and it's not coincidental, i don't think, that our exceptional presidents have all had a very strong sense of histy. they've all been readers and kept on reading. >> rose: so you look at the exceptional presidents clearly it's washington and lincoln and clearly it's f.d.r. there are three at the top. right? >> yup. >> rose:ho else is on your list? >> >> well i wld certainly include john adams, though he's not an exceptional president by the usual standards. he was an exception american, exceptional human being. >> rose: exactly. >> i'd include harry truman. >> rose: and an exceptional patriot. harry truman who you've written about. >> i've written about him. i'm not much at rating... >> rose: i'm just asking who's in your pantheon of deserving mentions. >> well, washington and lincoln, f.d.r., theodore roosevelt, truman. >> rose: here's what john adams

said once, that his generation-- his generation-- should study war and politics so that their grandchildren could pursue fine arts. >> that' exactly what this book is about. this is pursuing the dream that adam's had for the fute generation. i'm going in saying what did they do? how have they done? and of crse one ofis descendents is in the book, henry adams, who may have been our greatest historian. >> rose: tell me the people you mealong this journey. who is it that you most want to tell us we would be part in if we had been in paris at this time. >> rose: oliver wendellwendall holmes senior. who's one of the most engaging fellows i ever sat in a cafe with. holmes was aoet and essayist. a very small man physically. he said 5'4 in a pair of heavy boots. he was a poet, a published poet

already and he was a medical student. and he saw no incongress grewty in devoting his life to medical science and writing poetry and essays and founding the "atlantic" monthly magazine. holmes was one of those who caught on to french and the whole way of life there immediately. keep in mind, charlie, they did not speak any french, none of these people. because french wasn't taught yet. modern european languages weren't taught in college. >> rose: so they had to learn the language when they arrived. >> yes, imagine you're plunged into medic school with thousands of students going to lectures, attending demonstrations of surgical processes and the like and everything is in french, none of the other students speak english and you've got to catch . with a rigorouschedule that would be enough to exhaust anyone and not one of them to my knowledge ever quit. none of them said, "boy, this is not what i expected, i'm going

home." >> rose: oliver wendell holmes, sr., was the father of the great oliver wendell holmes, jr., who was the jurist on the supreme court? >> yup and he was an amazing man who spen35ears teaching anatomy at the harvard medical school. charles summer in, one of t most imptant then american history. important becae he became th most powerful voice for abolition in the united states senate. to the point where it nearly cost him his life when preston brooks from south carolina attacked him on the senate floor with a heavy walking stick and very nearly beat him to death. summer in had the revelation... sumner had the revelation about the evil of slavery in paris. he was... he went over to study at ther is bone, he felt he didn't know enough. sorbonne. he had been to harvard. harvard law school, was a practicing lawyer but he didn't know enough.

and he attend all conceivable subject matter sorbonne lectures and watching the other students he noticed the black students had just the same kinds of ambitions as he had. they were... they acted just the same as everybody else. they were treated just the same as everyone else. and he sai in his journal at the time "wonder if how we treat black people back in my country has more to do with what we were taught than the natural order of things." and this was an epiphany for him. cameome, got involved th politics, got into the senate and became this voice second only to lincoln. and it happened in paris. that's what he brought home from paris. another major character in my view is augustus st. godin, the great sculptor.

it's a great american story. here's an immigrant shoe makers kid, grew up on the streets of new york, gang fights and all that, put to work when he was 13 years old who decides he wants to be a sculptor and knows there are no adequate schools for sculpting in the united states. knows that he has to go to euro. he has to go to paris. goes over in sterj wh money he's saved from working from the time he was 13. and makes it happen. and does some of his greest works here. i justent today again to look at the farragut statue in madison square downwn,one of his signal most accomplished pieces and the great sherman statue which is up at the corner of 59th and 5th avenue at the entrance to central park. >> rose: right. >> sherman being led by the

goddess of victory which i think s the greatest equestrian statue in america. >> rose: i go by it every morning when i'm walking my dog. every morning. >> both of those were made in paris. both. if you cld turn that statue upsi dow most american subject matter, "made in paris." >> rose: some of these people knew each other. like jamesfen mortar cooper knew samuel morris. >> very well. they had met at the white house at a reception for lafayette in 1828. but they knew each other pretty well here in new york. then they go to paris and as often happens when you go abroad when you're in another country, when you're traveling, you often make frenz in a way that is differenfrom other friends. they became friends in paris. cooper was there as a painter. cooper was there as an author writing and morris was there as a painter. and morris undertook this most ambitious of any painting he ever attempted. one of the most ambitious

paintings ever attempted by any american. a 6 x 9 view of e interior of the louvre hung with the masterpieces of the louvre which he chose himself. and he had to build a contraption of a scaffold in order to get up very high because many of these paintings he was copying were up extremel high. and he would move this from place to place inside the louvre. you can imagine what a spectacle that was. and people would come and watch d itas an attraction in itself. rris went every... cooper went everyday, every afternoon to sit with morris while he worked, kid him, talk to him, encourage him. but particularly when there was a horrific cholera outbreak. where people we dying the thousands in the streets of paris all through the spring and summer,8,000 people died before it was over in paris alone and morris thought as he

wrote in letters to his brother, he thought he was going to die at any point. everybody who could get out of the city left. morris wouldn't leave because he was determined to finish the painting and he was running out of money and he knew he had no money to come back. cooper didn't leave because his wife was too ill to move. and both of these men knew they could die at any point but yet that friendship that duty-bound feeling that cooper had to be with morris went the whole way through. >> john singer sargent was tre right? >> yes, indeed. >> rose: did they know each other? >> not very well and they lived in separate worlds even tugh theyere very similar in that casst was with her parents and she felt she had to look after them, she led a very insulated life as her painngs reflected. mary csatt was a very bra

woman. she wasn' just a very gifted painter. she decided that she by god was not going to be a woman who paints. she was going to be a painter. >> rose: who happened to be a woman. >> who happened to be a woman. and, of course, she becomes the only person who is accepted by the impressionists as one of them and taken in wi them. and she brought her friend mrs. havermeyer into the world of the impressionist and and mrs. havermeyer because of her husband's wealth and sugar empire began buying impressiont paintings when they were very inexpensive. she bought monet, manet, all of them, which now constitute the great collection at the metropolitan museum. >> rose: there's a great manet exhibition. >> so she brought back her treasures from paris. elizabeth blackwell, the first woman to become an american physician, again, one of the

bravest people i've ever had t good fortune to write about. andhen there were people like louis gchuck, the first american ever to perform on stage solo in paris ever. and he did it at age 15. >> rose: paris was what it was as a city of life and romance, but also france was a place that appreciated art morethan most. >> yes, and appreciated the theater more than most and appreciated the opera more than most. and several of these young americans right away saw that. they... that the performances that were happening on stage were so much better than what they saw back home. not just because the actors were more talented but because the audience expected more in the way of performance and the actors ft they had to come up to what the audience... to the audience' expectation. and to be sure, i must y, as cooper remarked in something he said. for all the work that they were

doin... he said there was always the expectation of a little pleasure at the bottom of the cup. >> rose: (laughs) yes, i know. >> and when they fnd, for ample, that wine was cheaper than milk that the food was out of this world, that lifefter dark got mighty lively and engaging they had a time like they never had before >> rose: so did they mostly stay for five years or ten years ... >> the medical students on average stayed two to three years during which they could learn more... because france was a medical... paris was the medical capital of the world and they could learn more in two years than they could in ten years in practice as holmes said. and there were two big rsons for that. onwas in the united states, we were very far behind medically. most american doctors never went to medical school and trained under doctors who'd never been to medical school. but there were social stigmas

thatere the jut most barrier. one was that most american women would have preferred to die than to have a man, a doctor, examine their body. and as a consequence many, many american women died. the second thing was that cadavers were either hard to get or frowned upon in use for deyou can see iting, frowned upon by society and as a consequence they were expensive. you got them on the black market. so most medical students never got a chance to dissect aead body, to takepart an arm or a leg. and in par there was no problem about that. so they've dissected... dissecting bodies was a huge part of their medical educatio in paris and they made the rounds with doctors examining female patients no less than male patients. >> rose: i've always been fascinated by the idea of first adams, jefferson and franklin of

those three is it automatic that jefferson loved paris more than the other two or is it hard to tell. >> i don't thinke necessarily did love paris... >> rose: jefferson? >> jefferson. adams spoke french better than he did, read it more ready than he did. franklin, of course, took to the way of life immediately. >> rose: yes, (laughs) >> jefferson was there longer. he was there five years. and i think in many ways they were as happy as any years in his life because he was away from slavery. >> rose: right. although wasn't... didn't he have slaves with him? >> yes, but they were free by there. >> rose: you think secretary of defense troubled by slavery he like being away? >> yes, i think he knew it was wrong... >> rose: then why didn't he give it up? >> that's a very good question. we'll never kn the ansr. i have a feeling it had to do

with finances. he was always in debt and his greatest wealth was in his slaves. which was true of many southern planters. >> rose: he died very poor, didn't he? jefferson? >> he died broke. >> rose: broke. >> deeply. >> rose: with fine wine in his cellar. >> yes. and he never stopped spending. >> rose: yes, exactly. he st he been a smooth talkerhen he wento the bank because how he could get away with it. all his life. he was never not dead. but i think that jefferson wanted to ing somethi home fr paris. he brought home paintings. herought home some 80 crates and books to raise the cultural level of the countr. and i think that was a genuine mission, i know it was. and that's exactly what people thought. these americans were not disenchanted with their country. they weren't like so-called lost generation. >> rose: they went to learn something and bring something back. >> yes, they weren't alienated from america.

d again and again they would talk about this is going to make me a better american, or i feel i'm a better american. >> rose: the people at the time of jefferson or... >> the time in the 1830s, 1900s. >> rose: right. >> and they're not going to bring home 08 crates full of stuff, but they're going to bring home themselves as a better sculptor, better painter, better physician, better politician. >> rose: exce my curiosity out is because i've asked you about this before. when... the famous story that jefferson and adams died o the same day. >> yes. >> rose: who was it that reached out to whom? because someone told me... or you told me that it wasn't either of them. that the person... i first heard that it was adams' wife abigail who was responsible. then i heard no, that she actually... >> it was benjamin rush in philadelphia, the physician, steineof t decration of independce. >> rose: felt like what? >> he felt that those two should have a reconciliation. >> rose: before they died? >> bore they dd and adams

agreed and wrote jefferson. >> rose: so adams wrote to jefferson and abiil had nothing to do with it? >> abigail was more angry. >> rose: that's what i thought. that's what someone told me that abigail didn't like jefferson, was angry at jefferson. >> yes. she felt that he had betrayed her husband because he's the one that put the reporter after adams during the campaign when they were running against each other. >> rose: on his orders? on jefferson's orders? >> yes. and the irony was that he was the same one who turned around and revealed the sally hemmings relationship on jefferson because jefferson, he fe, ha't rewarded him sufficiently for the job he'd done attacking adams ring the campaign. but they were really... ey were true friends. they were as diffent as night and day. and they died on the same day

and they didn't die just onany day, they died on the 4th of july, tir day. and adams truly did say jefferson survives. >> rose: survives? still lives? survives. >> survives. >> ros andefferson was dead? >> jefferson had died that morng. >> rose: wow. ju 4. >> yup. rose: samuel morse and the telegraph. >> indeed. >> rose: the idea came from an experience in paris. >> while he was in france. he saw the system where they signald from towers by visual means and he thought why can't we havsomething that uses electricity that does the same thing? he came home with the idea, he perfected it, it, of course, was a sensational event. sensational change in history, the advent of the telegraph. and the morse code because he

couldn't... work the system unless you had a code. he went back to paris to get a french patent for the telegraph and while he was there he met de guerre, who invented photography the daguerreotype and de guerre told him it would be all right if he, morris, brought that back to the united states. so he brought back photography. now imine you come home not only with a masterpiece that you've painted in a gallery in the louvre which is going to b on display at our national gallery this summer... >> rose: when i was in college i bought the posr of that painting a have had it since then. >> you're kidding. >> rose: i loved it because of all the paintings. >> charlie, you're amman ahead ofour time. >> rose:laug) it's true! >> so thene brings back the idea of the telegraph and photography. one man, one life. >> rose: take a look at these and we'll come back to the story. this is paris guide. >> english language. >> rose: everybody had to have

this. >> yes and galignani's bookstore is still in business on the rue deive arely. >> rose: one of my favorite streets. this is rue derivoli with the louv on the left. and next is school mistress emma willard champion of higher education. >> she was the first to champion higherducation for women in america and sh came over in paris in order to improve herself as a teacher. so she came to learn go back to teach so she brought back and improved... and she brought back a french teacher for her school, the emma willard school in troy, new york, which is still there. the teacher is not still there but the schools. >> rose: next is p.t. barnum and tom thumb. >> well, theyook paris by storm. >> rose: i'll bet they did. >> rose: and tom pousche, as he was known in paris, and performed in front of the king, louis filipe and was a big...

there we several american sensations at the time. one was louis gotchuck which i just mentioned, e penis. and the other was george catland, the great painter of the plains indians who arrived in paris with 50 iowa indians and 500 of his paintings. and that took paris by storm. no american artist ever arrived in paris with such a sensation. >> rose: that was what year? >> in the 1850s. and, of course, the french were very much taken up with the whole idea of russo, which is the natural man, the real man and people le de la croix going off to paint arab chiefs and lions in northfrica. so they had never seen the real indians before and they performed a... their war dances for the king in the palace that

was moment to remember. >> rose: this is auguus.. augustus st. go din when he was a student. he went or at 19 years old and he lived there three different times. and was working very hard each time and two of the later times when he wasn't a student is a riod when he did the farragut statue and the sherman statue. >> rose: now, at this time when they all came did they find themselves eventually or soon... finding themselves involved with paris as well as parisians? >> yes. and they were involved with each other. >> rose: and with each other. >> so many of these people knew each other. knew each other in paris, knew each other back here. >> rose: and shared friends and the rest. >> yes, indeed. and those that spoke french fluently naturally were more at ease wit their fellow french students or fellow french artists. >> rose: and this is leal hue

washburn. >> that's leal hue washburn whose story is one i hope people are take to. he is an amazing american hero. >> rose: because? >> he was sent to paris by grant as ourminister to paris. ere s a huge... well, we call it ambassador today. there was a huge hew and cry that he was perfectly ill-suited for it. he had had no foreign experience he spoke fraefrj little bit but he'd shown no sign or gift for diplomacy. he arved on the eve of the franco-prussian war and when the germans advanced rapidly on paris and everybody s getting out as ft as possible if they could includinghe diplomats of every major power in the world he said "i'moing stay because it's my duty. asong as the are americans here i should be here.

so he was therethrough the entire siege of paris when the germans were starving the city into surrendering. took almost five months. an awful, awful time. and then he stayed on again for the same reason because there were american there is during the incredibly horrible unbelievably horrible commune civil war that broke out, inch from killing french in paris. and through all of it he kept a diary. >> rose: the last oneere is the sherman statue which i look down on my apartment everyday and take my dog barkley out running everymorning and we pass it every single day of my life i'm living in new york. >> he had trouble with the left hind leg which is up. and he kept telling the peopl in the studio, the big workshop, that is required for building a

piece that high on that scale e leg was too long and they assured him it was n too long so he measured it and lo a behold it was three inches too long. he had an eye and he was a seens you. but i think what's so important to know abt that statue is that the goddess of victory who's leaving it the model who posed far figure was an african american. her name was heady anderson and she was from the carolinas and whether st. godin was doing that to make a point i don't know. i can't say. my guess is he didn't. he knew she was african american but he didn't want to do it for that reason. and her look... if you look at the faces of those two figures sherman's face is pitted,

scowling, scary. it's the face of a madman, truly sand sherman was the won who said "war is hell. war is all moonshine." and st. gaudin is not letting us forget that. and she is is goddess of victory. it's aren't i wonderfulnd isn't it glorious we've won, hip hip, hooray, it's almost as if she's in a daz that she can't quite believe that it's over and the north has been victorious. newspaper the nex book is going to be about 1913 or not? >> no, i happened to mention e of my 27 thoughts about the next book to somebody and they... and by no means do i have any idea what my next book is going to be. i'm thinking about a number of possibilities. >> rose: that one of them? >> it's one of the 27.

>> rose: is it going to be more biography? >> i don't kw, charlie, i don't know. >> and once you make the choice you pretty much stick to it? >> yes, >> i was riding dn nnsylvania avenue in a car, early morning rush hour and i was driving alone and i got to sheraton circle right pass embassy row. >> rose:ell me this story, this is wonderful. >> and everythg stalled at the circle and i was looking over there thinking i wonder how many people have any idea who that was. and what a shame. they go around this circle everyday, thousands of people twice a day. and tn gershwin's "rhapsody in blue" began playing on the car radio and i thought oh! i adore gershwin and it was releasing me fm the

frustration, the annoyance traffic jam and changing my thoughts... up to a point. and i thought here's gershwi just as alive for me now and just as powerful, justs transporting with his gift and for everybody else who's tuned in as if he were still alive. he is still alive in his music. >> rose: the power of culture. >> who's more important? general fill sheraton or george gershwin? >> rose: george gershwin? >> they're both important. but you can't leave gershwin out. and i think that's when i decided to go to paris. >> rose: these are the things we read about you. you're going to take off a year to paint? >> well, i'm not going to take off a year, i might paint for a year. i love to paint. >> rose: you paint now. >> i paint all theime when i can. >> rose: are you good?

>> i'm getting better. since i was 12. all my life. i thoughi wanted to be a portrait painter. >> i thought i wanted to be an actor. >> rose: why do you think it turnedut the way did? >> i thought i'm going go to new york and something will happen. just the same... >> rose: really? >> i never thought, just the way they went paris. find out if i'm any good. >> rose: what is your proudest achievement? >> my family. >> rose: and you they book is about the bonds of friendship and family? >> yes, it is. >> rose: you also said you had more fun with this book? i never had a better time. >> rose: why? >> i've enjoyed every book. i don't want to i never think

about it as working. i just do what i do. >> rose: how many years have you been doing this? >> about 45. and one of the main reasons it's a good way of the people i've met, the people i worked with, one of the lessons of history, one of the most obvious lessons of history is that almost nothing is accomplished alone. >> rose: tell m this, this is asked often. do you think america is a special country in that america is an exceptional place? >> yes. of course. >> rose: why do you think that? >> opportunity andelief we must be a government of men of laws, not of men and women. we must be a government of laws, not of men and women, because we have freedom of speech, because we have all of those things that those people in tumult in the near east are clamoring for. >> rose: the people in the ar

spring? >> they want what we have and we must never ever take it for granted. >> and we must remember the basis who have we are and why we improve in the course of time, in our lifetime is education. education, education, education. jefferson said any nation that expects to be ignorant and free expects what never was and never will be. we must keep our education up to the highest standards. we're not doing as good a job as we should be and we can't leave it just up to the teachers. we have to take part ourselves as paren, as grandparents. i think our teachers are the most important people in our society. i thinkthey're dog the work that matters most and will count most the long run. and, yes, they should be paid more and, yes, they should be given more respect and more of

our appreciation showing appreciation for what they do and helping them as much as we can. not criticizing them all the time. rose: sum up what it is you do. >> i tell the story of who we are, what we've been through, what we've accomplished, and what we've fled to accomplish. is what we've learned about people who were here before we were to whom we owe more, far more, than we generally appreciate. i hope that i make up for the failure that many people had had when going to school in understanding the joy of history

yes we should know history because it makes us better citizens, yes because it makes us better in les of leadership and responsibility. but we will also know history because it's part of the experience of being alive. why seal yoself off from that other time. it would b as if you said there's going be no more music or theater or poetry oar dance. no, that wouldn't be... you wouldn't be human, you wouldn't be alive. it's part of the enjoyment of being human. >> rose: so your epitav should say "here lies david mccullough, american, historian, the master

of the american narrative." >> charlie, if you were to write the epith, that would be fine with me. >> rose: what would you add to it? >> >> i hope i will be remembered as being a good husband and father and brother and grandfather. >> rose: it always comes to that doesn't it? >> yes. your family, your friends and the more you're looking back from a distance i am now the more you realize that. you've been told that all your life but you have no idea. >> rose: the closer y get to the end no matter how f it is you feel the relevance. >> rose: the oer night i ran into a man namederm coalmeyer.

and he and i used to off to vassar college schrasing the gis. he had the car. i hadn't seen him in 57 years and the fact that i could ride withim to see the gir of my dreams dwhois my wife-- is one of the reasons i think i wound up being the husband of rose lee barns. he was a terrific guy in clege and i saw him just yesterday here in new york a he is still a terrific guy. >> rose: and it was just like yesterday. >> and it was one of the thrills of my life to see him again and to tell him how much what... the part he played at that time. is we weren't aware of all these things then. but you see in the perspective. to tell him how much that all meant me. just as it's been to see a teacher that changed my life after 57 years or more. still teaching out in

california. john hubbard. john bbard e day came into e classroom. he was annstructor, graduate student, he said "i'm not going to hold you accountable for any dates. don't spend my time memorizing dates. don't spend time memozing quotations. that's what books are for. the point ishat you understand what happened, why, and to whom. he said you can jump up othis window sill and yo can fly. change my life. py met him again in california and i realized... he pointed that he was that graduate student he washe president of u.s.c., he was our ambassador to india. i knew none of that. but i had the chance, charlie, to thank him. to thank him from the bottom of my heart.

you changed my life. i have a son who's a teacher. teaches edge lish in high school and i'm so proud that that's what he's doing. so proud that he is having that kind of effect on the students. and having... making his mark as a citizen, as a human being that way. >> rose: any regrets? >> me? >> ros yes. >> no. >> rose: none? >> oh, some, of course. >> rose: but there was no great obsession? there was no great goal? no great mountain that you didn't climb. >>he best decision i ever made was to go to washington. to throw a job i had here in new york-- good job-- to the winds and go to washington to serve in the new kennedy administration. when he said "ask not what your country can do for you but you can do toyour country" i took that to heart.

and i knew no on inhe kennedy admistration and i went down and got a job at the u.s.i.a. when edward r. morrow was there and it changed my life in that it opened up the possibilities beyond journalism at that point for me. that's when i found the photographs taken after the johnstown flood. >> rose: your first book. >> and i wanted to read more about it. i took books out and they weren't very good. so i decided why don't you write the book youould like to read. and i first heard the idea from thornton wilder when i was in college. somebody asked him "how do you get the ideas for your plays or novels?" he said i imagine a storyand if i find it's never been performed on stage or nobody's written in the a book i write it so i can see it performed or i can read inhe a book. that's exactly the spirit in which i entered in writing my first ok. >> rose: the johnstown flood was the first book. the great bridge, the path

between the seas, mornings on hoe back, brave companions truman, john adams, 17, and now the greer journey, americans in paris. it continues to be a remarkable life and a remarkable opportunity you have had to share with us our our story and other stories. people who have touchedur lives or people that he done historic things that simply the doing of them made them important. you have served us well, my friend. >> rose: thank you, charlie, that means a lot to me. thank you very much. >> rose: david mccullough, the greater journey, americans in paris. thank you for joining us for this hour. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications

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