>> charlieie: welcome to our bromine. we begin this evening with president obama press conference earlier today. >> there are a number of steps that my administration is taking but there are also a number of steps that congress could be taking right now on items that historically have had bipartisan support and would help put more americs back to work. many of these ideas have been tied up in congress for some time. but as i said, all of them enjoy bipartisan support and all of them could help the economy. so i urge could not to act on these ideas now. >> charlie: arminio fraga, former banker and brazilian investor. >> many people believe markets are a great failure. they forget that markets operate in an environment where there

are regations, there are laws, there are rules and one could argue pretty powerful fashion i think that markets are far from perfect, b a lot of the regulatory aspects that were behind tse marketsere pretty bad as well. i see how the pendulum's swinging, let's call it to the left. charlie: that'the regulation. >> not too much but perhaps the wrong kind and many of the problems not being addressed many i'm not a believer in the minimalist state or any of that. >> charlie: we conclude with sugar ray leonard,he great boxing championship in a memoir called "the big fight. myife in and out of the ring ." >> your arms are worn out a there are three more rounds to go and the last three rounds i decide the factors. at that time that you call upon a resource to go out there and

throw combinations, not just one punch, throw combinations and out huse the other guy. that's the hidden resource. >> charlie: the president's press conference, arminio fraga and sugar ray leonard, when we continue. if you've had a coke in the last 20 years, ( screams ) you've had a hand in giving college scholarships... and support to thousands of our nation's... most promising students. ♪ ( co-cola 5-note mnemonic ) every story needs a hero we can all root for. who beats the odds and comes out on top. but this isn't just a hollywood storyline. it's happening every day, all across america. every time a storefront opens. or the midnight oil is bned. or when someonchases a dream, notust a dollar.

they are small business owners. so if you wanna root for a real hero, support small business. shop small. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: we begin is eveng with president obama's press conference held at the white house earlier today. it was his first since march of this year. he defended his leadership on deficit duction and he called on congress to play a larger role. >> i'm very amused wn i start hearing comments well the

proceed needs to show more leadership on this. let me tell you something, right after we finished dealing with the government shut down, averting a government shut down, i called the leaders here together. i said we've got to get th done. i put vicepresident biden in charge of a process that by the way has made real progress, but these guys have me worked through all the issues. i met with every sile caucus. the for an hour to an hour and-a-half each. repuican senators, democratic senators, republan house, democratic house. i metwith the leaders multiple times. at a certain point, they need to do their job. and so this thing which is just not the level where we have meetings and discussions and we are working through the process and when they decide th're not happy at the fact at some point

you got to make a choice they all sit back and say well you know the president needs to get this done. they need to do thr job. >> charlie: the president asked republicans to agree to end tax breaks for the wealthy. >> charlie: if everybody else is willing to take on their sacred cows and doive things in order to achieve the goals of relevant deficit reduction, then i think it would be hard for the republicans to stand there and stay that the tax break forecorporate jets is sufficiently important that we're not willing to com to the table and get a deal done. you can't reduce the deficit to the level that needs to be reduced without having some revenue in the mix. the revenue we're talking about isn't coming out of the pockets of middle class families that are struggling, it's coming out of folks w are doing extraordinarily well and are

enjoying the lowestax rates since before i was born. >> charlie: he also addressed criticism of u.s. involvement in libya. >> we have engaged in a limited operation to help a lot of people against one of the wst tyrants in the world that nobody wants to defend. we should b sending out a unified message to this guy that he should step down and give people a fair chance to live their lives without fear. this suddenly becomes the cause celeb for some folks i congress. come on. >> charlie: talking about the future of same sex marriage throughout the united states. >> i think what you're seeing is a profound recognition on the part of the american people, the gays and lesbians and transgender, ourroths r sisters, our children, our

cousins, our friends, our co-workers. and that they've got to be treated like evy other american. and i think that principle will wiout. it's not going to be perfectly smth and it turnsut that the president, i discovered since i've been in this office can't dictate precisely how this process moves. but i think we're moving in a direction of greater equality and i think that's a good thing. >> charlie: this press conference today followed a series of meetings between the president and senate leaders on the debt limit. the parties remain divided over taxes and vitalment and there is discsion about whether it will be reached by the august 2nd deadline. arminio fraga is here with a

multibillion dollar asset company. he was the banker in brazil. he's widel credite with save saving his country from economic turmoil that afflicted others in the the region such as argentina and mexico. today brazil is the seventh largest economy in the world. it is the leader among emerging markets and is poised to continue growing. i am pleased to he arminio fraga at this table forthe fit time. welcome. it's a pleasure to ve you here. what is it about brazil and what is it about emerging countries that have given them the economic fro file they have? >> they're all so different. i think it's probably the feeling that they are really emerging in the end, above all. we used to say emeing and submerging because they go up and down. and there's a feeling from lessons may have been learned

and that maybe this motion that the standards of living in these very large and heavily populated areas are converging, they're moving towards the higher standards in the world. it's very exciting, it's really a historical event. >> charlie: and you believe it's sustainable. >> for the most part. i think there are a lot of challenges. each country dealing with its own. some have polical challenges, some have vironmental challenges. just like you imagine china and india growing into those water or air situations. >> charlie: the more manufacturing there is, the more pollution there is and damaging there. >> yes. so these are not smooth rides. but i think this is happening. >> charlie: do you agree with jim o'neill when he said 50% of the gdp in the world will be

ming from emerging nations at some point soon. >> those are extrapolations but this subject ofrequent revision t the path is looks good. >> charlie: ell me more about the population as a factor. it gives you domestic demand. >> right now i think the fashion is to say tt the good demographics are the ones why the populaon is growing. and you know, for the life of me, i can't see why having more people in india is having good thing. but that asiding some population growth can be helpful in some situations. having a large population th can be educated, it can save and work hard. is possib plus but it's also a real managerial challenge. so i would like to see the world

converging to population that fits in the end. i'm not too excited about that myself because of that. >> charlie: what will be the impact of the transition in vernment in brazil? >> we're seeing some challenges. it's early but six months have gone by. some of the changes are refreshing, such as those taking place in foreign policy. more to be seen, more is needed. then we have a president that brings a different styleo the office. the she sees herself as more as a manager. she's certainly not a lula charismatic. we need that, quite frankly. i'm not say religious about how big a government has to be to do well. their history is full of examples of small, mid size,

even large governments that have done well such as those in scandinavia. but one thing we know for sure is there's no country history of successful development without good government and broadly understood. the government that is fair, open, reasonably efficient. the and so that's a huge chalnge r us. >> charlie: to make sure you have good government. >> make sure we have good government. >> charlie: it's interesting to me but in a number of countries, you can look at their rise at the emerging power, emerging economic power. and before the political reality happened, there was a finances minier who was turning things around, and you're given some credit for making those kinds of, having that kind of impact. >> it'snteresting how each country clicks. >> charlie: right. >> i don't think we know exactly

how to build a theory around that but you do need that. you do need the, there needs to be a window of opportunity at a certain point in time where things go. >> charlie: you have to have somebody articulating. >> exactly. i think for us it was president cardoza who managed to get rid of hyper inflation. it's like we lived in a fog all of a sudden. we could see things and look beyond the next few weeks. that has made allhe difference and we've been fighting to keep it that way, and then, you know, to do more. >> charlie: so when you look at the united states and its onomic reality, what do you think? you asked what questions do you ask yourself? >> okay. the u.s. is carly the most amazing economic machine ever put together as an amazing model. the and it may have as a rult got slightly complacent over the years because it's so good.

the u.s. needs to blend the sort of fire fighting that's been taking place, zero interest rates, very expansionary fiscal policy with longer term policies, longer term reforms. including the long term budgetary situation that cannot go on like this forever. and then more strucral things, job creation, business confidence, education, infrastructure, all of that. these a big agenda. i'm not a specialist, i just feel having spent my life looking at countries that went into a crises situation and then emerged in pretty good shape. in every single case, there was this mix of short term emergency measures and long term sort of building t future type moves. >> charlie: okay. that's the dilemma. >> yes. >> charlie: is it not. >> the shouldn't be a dilemma,

it's just, it seems difficult to do this -- >> charlie: well but here's the dilemma. people in the political environment in the united states, there's a demanded to something about the death immediately. the death. on the other hand, there is the encouragement to do something to promote growth. in the short term doing something about the debt immediately some say doesn't promote growth so you delay about doing something about the long term issues until you can get the growth back on track. >> there's a bit of confusion there. to grow you need demand. >> charlie: right. >> so the deficit is a way to generate some demand. >> charlie: okay. >> however, you also need supply. you need to invest more. you need to educate your people better. and they need to come hand in happened. i think there's now a gap on the supply side that has to do with some of the things i just mentioned. so i feel right now the time has

come to address though things. i also think that there are too many parts, too many countries in this world that are kind of living beyond their means that are not, they have social security systems that don't balance, theyave healthcare costs that look be growing, you know, forwards the sky. i just don't see this stays out on the agenda for the political leaders. >> charlie: you same to be scribing the united states for that. >> that'she supply to you're even to brazil, the social security system is quite extravagant. we're okay for now. then 20 years even. but beyd the horizon, these are very unpleasant about the discussions, the political leaders in fact tend not to

ave. they're supposed to be leaving, they seem to follow to read the polls to do well for the nt couple years and they do tt unfortunately. >> charlie: do you worry the political system will not have the political courage to do what's right? >> i think the u.s. will do what's right in the end. in the end. it won't take as long as the churchill -- i don't buy that. >> charlie: in the end we do everything right to try everything wrong. >> i see the discussion there. i feel this will be a little more of a rush to get this done. >> charlie: wait say that clearly. you tnk that the politicians who had fix -- >> get it over with. go for it. >> charlie: it's always been among politicians a reluctance

to inflict pain. >> true. >> charlie: that's what you see in greece. >> they're in pain now. they clearly have more debt than they can handle by a factor of three. and so that's going to have to co into the pictu. believe the european leadership decided to buy time so they uld get the other parts in better shape before this happened or explain what it is that's gone on there. this has been a tough decade. even if you exclude that from the government. some things have to be fixed. there will be some pain but there's no way you can live without the business cycle.

you can't abolish the business cycle, this notion you can only keep the up swing and get rid of the down swing. it's an illusion and you end up paying a price. >> charlie: what are the other illusions about global economic. that idea to me is probly, this is the number one in my view is that you can just have good times and never have bad times. that creates a lot of patterns of this behavior. >> charlie: that's what happened in housing. >> for sure. there are other things related tohat in the sense that longer term issues cannot be postponed forever and they need to be addressed. i find in some parts of the world there is a lack of balance. it's interesng if you contrast china in brazil.

brazil is going through a phase of huge emphasis on consumption and i believe it's being overdone. it's a little bit the american way and you have to watch it. of course you need consomion. no country can grow without it. >> charlie: you worry about it. about it getting over done, people borrowing too much and five, ten years down the road, you go through what we just went through here. china's the other extreme. china has too little consumption and way too much investment. it's almost like you could, if you could blend the two, merge the two, you might end up with something better. >> charlie: but asou well know, the chinese are trying to change their economic model from an expert model to a domestic demand model. >> and rightly so. >> charlie: will they be able to do it? >> i think so. there might be as usual. >> charlie: where is the risk

of inflation, global inflation. >> well most countries right now seem to be happy to let their currencies. they are trying to infte collectively. whate know from history and from central banking in particular is that central ban try hard enough to inflate, they usually succeed. i ink the danger is that the world may collectively be pumping too much. >> charlie: too much money into the system. >> into the system. and you end up because you want to avoid the pain and you end up with inflation sooner than you think. >> charlie: is that a problem for the u.s. this. >> not right now but it could become. >> charlie: it could be bigger stronger economically productive than india? >> that seems to be the way they

are now. india has, income per capita in india is about a thousand dollars. >> charlie: china is about four. >> it was more. >> charlie: was it really? >> yes. >> charlie you think of commodity and cost ofood and all this kind ofhing. what are the big change elements in the global economic picture today. >> the commodity prize over the last four year is an important ingredient. there is something muc more powerful happeni that's loer in nature. you have a few billion people working hard, investing, saving,

getting an education and as a result you're getting growth. that's the primary element and it's the number one element. >> charlie: that's a very good thing. in other words if you had billions of people in the middle class wanting to buy things, that will help the trade and whole range of issues. it's not a zero sum game, is it. >> absolutely not. >> charlie: some people like to say the tide raises all boats. what you're saying in china, more peopl came out of poverty in the last whatever decade than er in the history of the world. >> yes, it's phenomenal. this is a big thing. we're going through, this is history here. >> charlie: and how much obal cooperation is this? >> i'm skeptical. you see finance ministers, leaders,atting themselves on the back saying see how we dealt

with the crises. they were all doing the same thing. they were all trying to avoid a depression. there was no need to cooperate. where cooperation was needed say on trade hasn't happened. on the envonment, it hast happened. on financial regulation, hasn't yet happened. it was something in the pipeline there. so it been difficult to find true cooperation meaning situations where countries have to give and take. i'skeptical there. >> charlie: you're skeptical there will be international regulatory structure, a deal on climate change. >> yes. >> charlie: copenhagen and cancun have not done what we think they would do. >> it's been tough. >> charlie: what are your fears for t globa economy? >> current fears are there these a relapse. just like with the flu, if there's a relapse -- it's not y

scenario calling but there is some chance. because we've now seen this masse response to the crises and in many ways, a lot of ammunition has been used. we don't have a lot left. zero budget going sky high. how do weo from here. >> chaie: that' not politically feasible in the country to have stimulus there. the they don't like using the word stimulus. >> people see this thing is unsustainable so there's a feeling that one must kind of get things back in shape before you can do that again. >> charlie: my friend wrote a book about state capitalism. is it possible that what will come out of all this is a new economic model that will be

transcended? >> i don't buy that. [laughter] i think the model is there and lessons that we -- >> charlie: but is the mol sort of the wtern u.s. model. >> again, take the case of government-owned banks as an example. we've had them in the world for decades, probably for centuries, for centuries. and they have a pattern. they do pretty well and they get excite they lend too much, they lend poorly because of politics and they blow up. there's a cycle. and net, i'm not sure what we achieve. here in this country we have fannie mae, freddie mac. it's such an unamerican thing, if you look at it from the outside. the banks in china has gone bust more than once, the so there's this excitement now largely because many people believe that

markets were complete failure and they forget that markets operated in an environment where there's regulation, there are laws, there are rules. and one could argue in pretty powerful fashion is that markets are far from perfect a lot of markets that were behind these markets were pretty bad as well. i see now the pendulum swinging, let's call it to the left. and sure -- >> charlie: too much regulation you think? >> not too much but perhaps the wrong kind. many of the problems not being addressed. i'm not a believer in the minimalist state or any of at myself. >> charlie: so you believe in regulation. if it's the wrong kind of regulation, what is right and what is wrong? >> well if you have a system

such that losers don't say that's a bad thing not just for economic reasons. i surely can argue that's inefficient. i also think it's terribly unfair and i think society doesn't put up with that for very long so it's a bad system. >> charlie: these were the losers who didn't pay. >> who were the losers that bond for instance, bond holders of banks. all the banksot bailed o. shareholders lost a lot of moy t bond holrs didn' lose. >> charlie: the bond holders weren't protect and that shouldn't have happened for making wrong investments. go ahead. >> creditors of some of the peripheral european countries looks like they're getting bailed out again, you know. >> charlie: most people give credit to paulson, and bernanke and geithner in the previous administration as well as this administration. do you have some reservations about how much credit they should be given? >> they did well considering the

cards they were dealt and the circumstances. i don't want to second guess what they were doing but they were clearly dealing with a sist -- system tt was poorly designed. and i don't yet see nerve of a change. >> charlie: i want to make sure to take advantage of this opportunity. what change is that? >> this discussion about for instance why there's so much leverage and why do you have so much short term borrowing, i think is yet to be solved. the whole issue of too big to fail, too interconnected to fail is up in the air. the what do you do with this global kind of network of financial relationships. >> charlie: -- still with us. >> it still is with us. >> charlie: should it be?

>> no. that has to be address. it's amazing we have a system that works a little better going forward where on the one side you have businesses and families and so on, and they borrow and there's this very complex world of derivatives, special kinds of financial intermediaries and vehicles and so on. but in the end, once you cut through al of this very complicated thing, in the end what we have is a hugely short funding situation where what you need, if you have long term investment needs you need lon term funding. so there are issues like that, somewhatechnal. but in the end it's -- >> charlie: it always is. fundamentals is about supply and demand, it's about basic issues of common sense as you s. >> yes. >> charlie: good and bad

supply and demand. when you look at derivatives in terms of the u., should they ve gone lower? are we still susceptible to different kinds of financial securities. >> a late is being done, the implementation is still unfinished. there are thousands of pages and i think we must wait to see. >> charlie: all the regulations are. >> where the thing ends up. >> charlie: right. >> yet, i'm not convinced that we've done everything, maybe that's impossible in any case. but we still have work to do. >> charlie: what's wrong with american housing? >> it's a tough one because there's always been this you here and i think it spread from the u.s. to other countries that

homeownership is a very important cultural ingredient that you want that, it tie people to the groun three that good feeling of roots going deep. that makes sense. however if that comes at a cost gigtic lerage of households, then one has to ask the question, is that the right thing. >> charlie: they are so indebted at some point if things go wrong, the house is worth less than the mortgage. >> quest and then -- yes and then it spirals. it's a bit much in the end. >> charlie: i think you're

probably right. i'm not sure it's one they want to talk about. taxes is a scary word in america. they want to talk about the deficit, they don't want to talk about taxes. i mean, the idea of cutting spending has so much more power than the idea of raising taxes. and even the idea of a balance ich was recommended by bo simpson did not get the president's support. what does that say about ality? >> t many heads are struck in the sand. step o, remove head from sand, face reality. >> charlie: let me go back to brazil for a second. you said you wrote this in the financial times. you id brazil needs to be

tally american. not as an insult or compliment. what d you mean. >> i probably meant it as an insult. just trying to be polite. >> charlie ther you go. [laughter] so what's wrong with being totally american consumer. >> it's short term, you know. it's a short termentality. i sometimes think the world doesn't add up when you look at these budgets and these social security systems and so on. and good old-fashioned kind of okay thanks for the long term, save a little bit for a rainy day. a little balance. i wrote that because i zebra sill early in this sort of process phase. that can be aressed. it can be fixed. it won't be easiest.

we brazillances are very many american in many ways more tha pele of brazil want to admit. >> charlie there's an american cultural influence having too with the idea of america havi to do with fashion, ving to do with design, all of that. pleasure. >> yes, exactly all of that. and there are other things. there's nothing wrong with that, but in the right dosage, not too little and not too much. you don't want to be like china where consumption is suppressed. >> charlie: they do want to move away from that, the china. >> they are doing fine. the chinese have a ge plan. they're about executing it and this risks but i'm very impressed with the vision they have. >> charlie: what does that say to you about democracyhen you're impressed by a vision and execution by a government that

doesn't know democracy. >> i'm still very convinced that their day's going to come and that's the weakness that they have. i don't buy the view that countrie can only develop if they are lucky t have a smart dictator at the helm. i don't buy that at all. former blaming minister in brazil. roberto campos, they are notio degradable. >> charlie: you're stuck with them. >> they're stuck with them and i think chinaas to face the that at se int. >> charlie: there's not a system. >> yes, so you can't change. and i find however that, i mean i think what's implied in your question is a legitimate question and we talked about it here. and that is how can democracies

take a lone view and longer term issues. this is a question that requires an answer. i find what the uk is doing is refreshing. >> charlie: i do too. i was thinking of that when you were saying the that. it's a great debate. i constantly ask myself the big questions. the question is what you just said. >> yes. it's a bate, it's a good debate. i'm not, i don't think -- you asked me about the leaders here during the crises, the financial leaders. d you know, that was not easy. but at some point, the long term will be presented and my view is the sooner you start dealing with it, managing it. you want to manage it. that's the keything the to me. you know there's a problem there. why wait, why sit here and wait

foa miracle. i think you need to go after these things. in many ways it was a shame. president obama had a lot of political capital. he came into a real mess, no estion. it was tou. but he might have been able to do more than he's been able to do so far. and we can't go back. >> charlie: that's true. and the question also is did he choose the right places for his primary focus. he believed he had to go after healthcare, a because he promised it and b, because he believed that it was the last chance for an administration, the clinton administration that failed and others that failed and here was an opportunity he thought to get it done. so put all his political capital there. >> i have a lot of sympathy for universal healthcare. but while that was being discussed, why not also address the long term issue of healthcare costs.

>> charlie: we would have all been better off if we talked abou the long term impacts, had the political urage to tk about the long term. if he satt the table and said i want this and this and this he probably would have gotten it at that point. now it's very complicated. >> charlie: people tend to be not more bold but less bold in a political election. >> yes. >> charlie: are you in the end optimistic. >> i am. i do think things in general are meant to work out. that doesn't mean thatyou alon the way won't face huge issues d problems, i do think are 're facing quite a few right now and i expect we'll face more in the future. >> charlie: to understand what you said is to focus on the long term, make sure at the that we do not. >> while we're doing the, all this needed short term tngs whether they be driven by politics or whatever, let's keep also doing the right thing, you

know. it's pretty much the old fashion way but i look it. >> charlie: i do too. but some people will ask what is the right thing. there's anpini on what is the right thing. >> that's true. i don't think there's one single way but we can point out som thin that don't belong in that solution. >> charlie: and we have. >> and so at least we should avoid those. >> charlie: thank you for coming. it's great to see you again. >> my pleasure, great to be here. thank you. >> charlie: sugar ray leonard is here. he captured the world attention at the 1976 olympics in montreal when he won a gold medal. the rest the history. he was voted the fighter of the decade ithe 80's by the boxing writ's association of america. during that period he beat roberto do ran and others.

he wrote about this, my life in and out of the ring. i'm please to do have at this table sugar ray leonard for the first time. we were in washington together if you remember. i said to you once, why do yo continue to do this. you he all the money in the world because you've done it world. you had an enormous record and you just said this is what i know. i want to do what i know. >> it's quite simple, it is, it's who i am, it' what i know. looking ba, it reminds me of when i retired thattists never happy charlie until i got back tutoring. >> charlie: because it's a goal. it's who you are and what you know and also you need purpose. >> purpose and structure. i need structure. i need to know that t fight is ree months away. i want to train here, i will run

there and my le just took a lot of turns. it w boxing day that saved me from day one. charlie: what makes the change. >> fighters are born, the true fighters are really born, it's predestined. of all the people that you would think would be a fighter maybe is because of my personality. i'm a very quiet reserved, introverted to a degree. the but the ring, the boxing world brought me in, into it and i felt safe there. because i could defeat one rson that's directly in front of me. i didn't on to deal with everything else if that makes senses to you.

101, i take control. because i train hard, i was dedicated, i sacrificed, i was disciplined. i had all the factors toe successful. you have to wanted it and have it inside of you. >> in those big fights you challenge. boxing, you don't play boxing. the you play basketball, football. you didn't play boxing. boxing is you give it the full attention. and you work hard and train hard. you run hard. and it all comes to light. you either have it or you don't. >> charlie: let's talk about thethree fights i mentioned roberto doran tried to intimidate you like nobody tried to intimidate something. >> he did. not cessarily intimidate. i don't think intimidation is the key, is a word. he knew, he got under my skin. he said things to me, he gave me gestures, fingers, he gave my

wife the finger. he cursed me, he pushed me. he did everything -- >> charlie: to do what, to achieve what this. >> to get into my head. to make me crack. because i was taught, just now in front of the cameras. when i smiled he pushed me and shoved me. he didn't retaliate like on the streets. the code is n't fight back. i didn't challenge him. to the degree he made me fight his fight because i wanted to beat him so bad. he insulted me so bad that i wanted to beat him at his own game fighting him toe to toe which was not sma. looking back on it, it was not smart. but for me -- >> charlie: you did it out of anger. >> i did it out of anger. anger never wins. charlie: you've said also that great boxers possess an inner resource, a hidden thing that makes us do incredible things. it's how we activate it.

what's that about. >> it's when you're at your peak, you're exhausted, a lot of the burning, your legs are tied up, arms are just worn out. and there is three more rounds to go. and the laughs three rous i decided the factors. it's that time that you cal upon a resource to get off that student, to go out there and throw combinations. not one punch but throw combinations and and out-- hus- the brain was not to be traumaized. >> charlie: did you think about that. >> we don't go in the ring thinking we are a statistic and

having dimension. i got in the ring and never not about that. >> charlie: when were you fearful. >> i knew theressing room that i was going to lose. charlie, i knew in dreing room when i was hitting the pads. it wasn't my brother or my trainer. getting ready, trying to get that, trying to recover, make that presence available and never came. it's like biorhythms is what we call it. i didn't want to fight that night and i knew it would be a long night. those moments are scary. >> charlie: which one was that. >> it was the first duran fight. >> charlie: he got in your head. >> it was the second harris

fight. it was camacho, ter norris. >> charlie: did you retire after camacho owe. >> yes, it was my last fight, 1997. i ally can't, well i did it. i can'believe i went back at the age of 4 >> charlie: why did you do that. >> because there was a void in my life, there was a void in my stomach in my hrt. there was something inside of me charlie that i was trying toet out. couldn't explain it, i couldn't articulate it because i didn't know at it was. i didn't know what it was. it was something that was boating me. because i was never truly happy. there are moments i was happy but i was never that truly fulfilled. there was always this, this weight, this pressure on my

heart and on my shoulders. >> charlie: how ar you today? >> well, i'm five years sober. i don't, i don't ... i feel better about myself. i feel i'm a better father, friend, husband. >> i remember when you came back from the olympics and there was a group of businessmen who set up a thing for you. did that make a big difference for you? did it give you financial independce that many others, either had and lost or never had to the same degree. >> i owe a great deal to my trainer and friendho put together and orchestrated my entire career. it was mike that got these this, 25 people together which gave me $1,000 and i paid them off, my

first professional fight and became incorporated. and from then on i was a free agent. i did my own thing. >> charlie: so money's never been an issue for you. >> money was an issue to turn pro, to have my dad. but from then on out, i was protected. protected. >> charlie: what's the state of boxing today? >> the state of boxing is -- >> charlie: what's the name in the philipnes. >> manipecia. >> charlie: is the pound for pound. why wouldn't they fight? what's the problem. who esn't want -- does one want to last it out until the other gets old. >> i think they both want it. it's an enormous payday. the i think that both are trying to gain a psychological edge. there's toouch on the table

there's too much at stake for them to fight each other because it's also their legacy. if you want to be the half pound you're the best fighter at half pound. >> charlie: who would you favor in that fight. >> at one time i leaned forwards fair weatheand one times i leaned towards -- i never seen them ht and then i saw each one hurt in a previous fight. they both resolved and they both was poised, came back and very impressive. >> charlie: in your judent the greatest fight u ever you fought. >> the greatest fight would have to be tommy hns in 1991. because tommy was such a freaking nature, he was a big guy, walter weight, 1 47. he just annihilated everybody.

he was tall and fast. he brought out the best in me and brought out the best in tommy. i figure if i could beat tommy i could beat anyone. that night i could have beaten anyone. >> charlie: i did my best. >> we werewhat, 30. that's not old -- tommy herns is really at the top of theot. >> swhat is it you ink yo had beyond heart. >> you got to be poised, you got to be balanced and you got to be fast. you got to have that radar heart. intestinal fortitude, eights it's all those things charlie. it's the package. >> tell us what it is. what does it feel like wn you're red and you take a

punch? >> you have two oions. you go to your corner. quit or continue. quit or put out more, take more risk. that's the problem. boxing, boxing. there must be a -- as we get older we make those come backs we're not committed. we're not totally committed because we don't want to get hit back and y're young and fresh and prompt you're committed because. as you get older, all that changes. >> charlie: i remember having you once at an earlier time and you were in great shape, you were in fabulous shape. i wanted to be in fabulous shape so i said to you what is the regimen and you said it was the back where all the strengths came from. >> it wasn't the weights. it was hit the bag andunning

five miles a day. just everything. sit-s, watching films, all that. did yo try it. >> charlie: yes, indeed i did. of course. sugar ray leonard, the big fight, my life in and out of the ring. lots of new revelations but also a revisit ofsome ofhe great monts in his life of which there have beenany. thank for coming. >> thank you char legal always a pleasure. >> charlie: on t next charlie se of the review of the events of historian timothy gargedashe. >> there are no signs that the member states in the union want to do what's necessary which is to go another step forward, make a fiscal union which in effect means making more of a political union. and that's the important fact. >> charlie: they need to go forward to make more of a political union. that's the important fact.

>> listen, there was no effective monetary unions in history which has lasted a long time without a supporting fiscal union and transunion as in the united states. so that's the only way to secure this thing really for good for a long time. >> that's what the people who created the monetary union thought was going to happen. but in the meantime, it's not what the other europeans a in particular, t what thegermans want to do. so that's where we are and that's why it's a crises, not just for greece and portuga but fothe ole. >> charlie: and for the united states. >> and for everybody in the world economy, because if the zero zone goes belly up, that's to say greece and maybe one or two others go down the tubes, what that means is that the

europeananks, and i mean german banks, french banks, british banks have a huge problem on their hands. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org