from washington "the mclaughlin group," the american original. for over two decades, the sharpest minds,

issue one, clash of the titans! >> what is required here in washington is that politicians understand now is not the time to play games. now is not the time to posture. now is the time to do what is right by the country. >> there is no reason for this debate and this discussion to go past august 2nd. all it takes is a little courage to actually cut spending and t america on a path of fiscal sanity.

>> friendly titans clashing! the president of the united states and the speaker of the russia house of representatives. at issue, the legal limit on the amount of money the u.s. federal government can borrow at this point in time. in other words, the debt ceiling. the ceiling or limit is now $14.29 trillion. the white house and congress have until august 2 to raise the debt ceiling. two weeks from this coming monday, midnight is the deadline. without upping the ceiling, the u.s. will be unable to borrow the money it needs to pay its obligations. then this catastrophe. >> fairly soon after that date, they wou there, would have to be significant cuts in social security, medicare, military pay or some combination of those. >> mr. obama and mr. boehner had been working on an agreement, but that deal ran into one key obstacle, taxes. the president wants to hike

taxes on wealthy americans. >> the best place to get those revenues are from folks like me who have been extraordinarily fortunate and millions and billionaires can afford to pay a little more. >> speaker boehner says tax hikes will hurt the economy by draining business capital dedicated to hiring new workers. tax here, he says, are a nonstarter. >> the american people understand that tax hikes destroy increases ever on the table. >> question, if there is a gap between hitting the ceiling and raising it, will that cause a double dip recession? pat buchanan? >> i don't know it would cause a double dip recession, john. it would hit the markets hard. but it's not going to happen. they're going to pass the debt ceiling, i believe. the president is not going to get any new taxes. the republicans can't give them to him and survive, quite frankly. so i think what you'll get is

an increase in the debt ceiling and maybe some small budget cuts. but this has been an historic opportunity the republican had to use this debt ceiling to place cuts and send them down to the white house again and again and again, give the president the cuts, and frankly they could have rolled back the federal government and they have failed to do it. and they have lost the opportunity because they're too deeply divided. i'm not even sure, john, a debt ceiling can get through the house. >> the treasury will likely collect and tax receipts in august approximately $172 billion. that will leave a shortfall of expenditure over revenue of about $130 billion. what is going to happen? >> it would be catastrophic if they did not raise the debt ceiling. but i agree with pat, they're going to do it. and they're going to behave the way washington typically behaves in these situations. they will do the very least that they have to do, and then they will use the famous phrase, kick the can down the

road. i agree this was an historic opportunity. it may not be entirely lost. there's still a couple weeks left. and the republicans just didn't know when to say yes. all they had to give was not raising the upper tax rate, all they had to do was close some of those tax loopholes. you can't have a negotiation where one side does all the compromise and the other side gets their own way. if and i think politically the president has driven that point home and i think he wins this political skirmish. i think the republicans will regret the fact that they overreached this time. >> what about the impact on world markets? >> well, i don't think -- if you nip the deadline you would not have default. you would have to cut government expenditure by $40% and that's just not plausible. the problem here, republicans don't have an alternative. that's why they're losing. pat is right, they can't get votes for anything at moment out of the house. if they had voted 3 trillion of

cuts with a $3 trillion increase in the debt limit and they have lots of cuts to play with bus they already vote with 6 trillion with the ryan budget, they would be in a much stronger position. instead, obama has been beating the hell out of them. >> is a good idea to raise tax now. >> doctor yes, for political reasons. it's an outrage for this country not to be able to deal with this issue even the way they've dealt that if they get up to the point the last minute where they have something to do with the raising the debt ceiling -- this country has acted like a banana republic. all. these people, the old line if there's a light at the end of the tunnel, politician will be able to buy more tunnel? they just go on and on. and it's a disgrace what did going on in this country. >> you've read an what is the content of the article? >> the content of the article is basically saying that we -- you cannot deal with the problem of the fiscal curve in in country, which is terrible,

by raising taxes. you've got to have substantial cuts both short-term and long- term. and if we don't do it, we're going to be faced with a huge economic crisis, and a crisis of confidence in the effect of our government. so we're not -- we're simply not doing that. >> would it extend the recession? >> yes, if we don't to 2 you mean? >> yes. >> absolutely. if even if with dough it will will have some effect on the economy and it won't be positive. >> okay. president obama says republicans have not produced a real debt reduction plan. >> i have not seen a credible plan having gone through the numbers that would allow you to get to $2.4 trillion without really --

>> but republican chairman of the house budget committee, paul ryan, says there is a plan that has been house endorsed ry >> i already passed the plan. we proposed over $6 trillion in spending cuts over the next 10 years. we proposed a plan -- >> question, does this cut the ground from underneath president obama's position? >> it does. john, this is what i can't understand. the republicans have passed the ryan plan, which cuts what, 4 trillion, all they have to is take one trillion of it or something like that, put it on to the debt ceiling. the cuts that even democrats would take. and send it over to the senate. and i don't know -- senate to obama if somebody shuts down the government, he'll have to do it by vetoing it. >> i'd like to point out the ryan plan did not reduce the

deficit. the numbers soared over time. >> are we sure of that? >> also -- >> down the deficit over time. it doesn't balance it immediately by any means. >> no -- >> but this -- [everyone talking at once] >> hold on! >> transforms medicare into -- >> look -- hold on. >> excuse me! >> go ahead. >> shifting the cost from the government to individual seniors. every republican ran -- >> okay, okay. let's listen to what they say on this. >> the medicare reforms are outside of the 10-year window so you can put those aside. in. first 10 years, there's 6 trillion of cuts, about 2 trillion domestic couples republicans -- pat is right, they had huge pool of cuts to play with to pair with the debt limit increase. they cannot do it because they're 50 guys who will not vote for a debt limit increase in any form. that means john boehner has zero leverage. if he's going to get something through the house, he needs democrats that gives the game

to president barack obama. so it's a really tough situation for the house leadership. >> you think barack obama has another motive for keeping this dispute going? that he wants to keep something else out of the news? >> no. >> what is that? first of all, you've got nato complaining we're not doing our fair share. >> not a joke! there are things he wants to keep. >> one issue that could dominate the politics of the day, if it weren't for this, it's the terrible unemployment numbers, which is really -- >> that's what he is trying to keep off the page. >> john, i think he's acting -- >> the presses is all over this! >> nobody cares about that. >> the press works -- you know that! they're following his lead! why is he introducing it? >> i think the president is acting in good faith. i think he wants a big deal. i think he will take cuts that contracts won't want and take taxes. because his presidency and the future of the country -- he believes -- [everyone talking at once]

>> socialistic. that what you're saying. >> vaguely socialistic, yes. >> when they came out with the report he said -- >> what is that report? >> that's a report that deals with the long-term deficit problems of this country. >> they recommend taxation, do they not. >> they had a whole series of recommendations, and the president said i will stand by what they did, except they're still waiting for him to stand by them. >> he's never taken it seriously, in not in his budget, not in his budget state, know when bowl simpson came city. not when they wanted a clean debt limit increase. so that he is winning a debate over the fiscal future of the country is astonishing! and. >> but he's keeping something else off page one! what is it? >> this is a genuine. >> the unemployment problem? it doesn't even figure in this. >> could not keep unemployment off the front page. it doesn't have to be on the front page. people are living it in this country every day this. ongoing impasse does not help barack obama in terms of how

people feel about the economy. he's got to get past it. he wants a buying deal. it would be good for his re- election. i believe john boehner wants to dot right thing but he can't -- >> i don't see how he changed from a deal that -- >> john, let me ask rich a question. >> what is that? >> i want to ask rich a question. if boehner had gone with the revenue increases of 400 billion, do you not agree that obama would have come forward with his big deal and gone ahead with it? i think he would have! >> i do not believe the cuts would have been real. i think tim geithner wants real cuts. i think obama politically wants fake cuts. i think you get the tax increase, and then all the cuts would evaporate at the end of the day. >> how serious is that dispute? is geithner on his way out? >> i don't know about that. >> he said he will leave and he would not say he would stay until. end of the term, just for the foreseeable future. so i believe he's definitely going to leave. >> so he was told by the white

house chief of staff it's time for are for you to move on? >> no, no. they can't get him a replacement. talk [everyone talking at once] >> he's been told his time is up. >> you couldn't get a new secretary of the treasury through! >> what about the former governor of new jersey? >> you mean former governor of jersey the -- >> come on! >> jon corzine! >> gold is goldman sachs! is this legislation or reasonable facsimile gets passed by both houses of congress, will it be an historic event, pat. >> i think if they got the obama big deal be historic. i don't think they'll get a small deal. i think they're going to get some baby cuts and increase in the debt ceiling. >> eleanor? >> if they increase the debt ceiling, okay, disaster averted. but it's hardly historic. >> you'll get a fizzle and it will happen probably august 1. >> if they got a 4 billion-

dollar or 4 trillion cut in expense to go with me, it would run! >> do you walk this fast all the time? >> only when i'm running away from you guys. >> media tycoon rupert murdoch didn't only deliver the news this week. murdoch was the news and continues to be the news. the owner of the news corp, a $32 billion media con gone rat, is in the eye of a whirl storm. the rap is hacking. murdoch's journalists have been hacking into the cell phones apparently of the owners and users of those phones. police reports say there could be as many as 4,000 victims. murdoch's journalists also invaded confidential medical records, one of those victims is the former prime minister of the united kingdom gordon brown. two of his newspapers reveal private medical records of the son of gordon brown and the

young boy's history of cystic fibrosis, which his mother and father were treating as a family matter. >> i can't think of any way that medical condition of a child could be put into the public arena legitimately. >> the international uproar over murdoch's newspaper hacking killed a pending murdoch broadcasting deal, namely, to purchase british sky broadcasting a deal valued at $12 billion. the sitting uk prime minister and the british public sidelined the planned merger. >> what has happened to this company is kisses graceful, it's got to be addressed at every level and they should stop thinking about mergers when they've got to sort out the mess they've created. >> on this side of the atlantic, lawmakers in the u.s. congress call for a hearing. house homeland security committee chairman peter king and the senate intelligence committee member jay rockefeller. >> you know the department of justice and all kinds of other federal agencies will be going

after this very hard, and we will too. >> question, democratic senator robert menendez has called for the justice department to probe allegations that a murdoch newspaper propose hacking the cell phones of 9/11 victims' families. how incendiary is that allegation? >> well, if it's true, it certainly incendiary and the hacking has actually delegitimized his company. he was forced to -- in a very gutsy move to shut down the major newspaper, news of the world, and he's now being investigated by as many parliamentary committees as possible. they've stopped a major transaction he's been working on to take a hundred percent chrome of bskyb, which is a major cable company in england some it's amazing to me how fast this has happened for a man who is really the premiere media baron in the world, who has run into an overwhelming

number of attacks on his company and on the failure of the company to shall we say conform by the honorable rules of journalism in. >> the hacking is bad business, nasty business no doubt about it. and they're going to prosecute people over there in england for it and if they're doing it here, he's got a real problem. but people have seized upon this and seen rupert murdoch. people are who don't care about hacking but who hate fax news, who hate the wall street and the other publication he's got. and they're going to go after him the way in the watergate days they came after richard nixon. they're after other game than the hacking. >> you have a motion picture empire too. >> they want to take him down. >> i'm glad you raised watergate before i did. because it does remind me of the drip, drip, drip. and they're asking the questions when did he know it and could he go to jail over this? there's a man who has been feared certainly in the u.k. and revered to some extent in this country for what he has

accomplished, but also feared. suddenly the fear factor is gone and it's open season on rupert murdoch some he's got -- the wall street journal is a jewel in the american newspaper world, and he's done fine. >> two things, improve the quality of that? >> his involvement in politics in this country is disturbing to people on the progressive side. >> there's no evidence woodward and bernstein hacked, right? am i right on that? >> they did try to break into the -- >> talking about the [everyone talking at once] >> they did try to penetrate the grand jury. >> what is that? >> bernstein and woodward tried to pen detroit the grand jury and williams got him off. >> talk action about the hacking? >> no, talking about getting to the grand jurors. >> that's more -- unlawful? >> it's equally. >> however many years later now turning the blame on woodward

and burnstein. >> i'm sayings they're really after the destruction of rupert murdoch now. and by a lot of people who really don't care. >> you know, there is -- [everyone talking at once] >> hold on! >> what did you say. >> the people who don't like rupert murdoch don't like hacking into private phones, from a media baron anymore than from the -- >> that's not -- >> also the horror of a murder of a 13-year-old young girl. >> right. >> and the family was trying to reach her by her cell did hack into the phone, she was already dead but they eliminated some of the telephone messages kept on the phone. it was all horrible, 13-year-ol of the things that just -- erupted in that country and caused -- everybody could identify with that. so there were -- the dominant m figure in england, which a lot

of people didn't like. the culture was rough and brutal and it changed the whole nature of politics in that country. >> exit question, is this the beginning of the end for the murdoch dynasty, or will rupert bounce back? >> the murdoch empire i think, john, has reached after gee clearly, its peak level and it's coming down. i don't know how far this is going to play out but i think it will take a long, long time and there are a lot of people in this country who are out to get him. >> eleanor. >> he is moving already out of the newspaper world, and he wanted to get bigger in television. and it stopped that growth. so i think he has hit a wall. there's an internal investigation at news corp, run by joel klein as a very respected person. so let's see what they find out. but there's more trouble ahead for the murdoch family, and so the dynasty that he hopes to put in place. >> you live in new york, did

you know that frank lautenberg called for an investigation about the hacking of a 9/11 victim's family? >> yes, the reason is that in under american law, you can't hold a license to a television station if you have a criminal conviction. so if there's a criminal conviction in england, it might affect his ability to own and run television stations here. this is a man who started fox cable, which is now -- dominant cable news some he's got issue three, american classic. >> there are women all over country like me, and if i don't make this public, then their lives will be gone. they're in jeopardy. >> former first lady elizabeth ford passed away a week ago. betty ford died peacefully in her home in palm desert, california, at the age of 93. her husband geralds ford, served as the 38th president for two and a half years, filling out the remainder of

president nixon's second term in 1974. president ford died five years ago. as first lady, betty ford advocated for many social causes, sump as early detection for breast cancer and other women's rights generally. perhaps her most memorable public service was that of di stigmatizing alcohol i've. treating it as a physical chemical addiction. not a moral weakness. a character flaw. a year after her husband left office, defeated by jimmy carter in the '76 election, betty ford announced she had suffered from alcoholism for many years. if 1978, at the age of 60, she checked herself into california's long beach naval hospital. her treatment was successful. she became more of a crusader. in 1982, she brought no

chieftains a alcohol and drug clinic. alcoholics and other drug add 46 almost everywhere have or have been treated at the betty ford center including elizabeth taylor, johnny cash, kelsey grammar, marlene matalin, chevy chase, ozzy osbourne and stevie nicks. more than 90,000 people have sought treatment for alcoholism and other drug addictions at the betty ford center. question, did betty fords utilize her position as first lady to advocate for more women in politics in addition to what she has done in the appeals? >> she was only in the white house a short time because her husband was defeated by jimmy carter. but she testified on capitol hill in favor of the equal rights amendment, and she was just an inspiration for women in both political parties. and it's hard to remember in the 70s, a woman who had breast

cancer wanted to hide. and fact she went public with her mastectomy because huge in those days. at her funeral service this past week, she had rosslyn carter speak. the wife of the man who defeated her husband, and cokie roberts, whose father served in the house when gerry ford was the republican leader and cokie's father was the democratic leader. just to remind us there was a time when people from the two parties not only got along, they did business together and they were friends. it's important message for today, and she planned her funeral five years ago. >> i think -- >> she saved a lot of lives with mastectomy because millions of women's now get breast exams. >> well, lots of people rushed to get ma'am grams right after that became public. >> she is very interesting figure. on one hand very progressive, other hand very retro. the progressive part very forward-looking change views about alcoholism and breast cancer, extremely important in wonderful work.

on the other hand, she was the first lady from the rockefeller wing, the established wing of the republican party, that was slowly going extinct is now a -- >> in the point -- [everyone talking at once] >> you know, to rich's point, i think she and gerry are two be loved fix. i was at the '80 convention and the era had become controversial. she marked on the streets of detroit prediction, pat. >> defaults before the end of the year. >> president obama 86 million- dollar campaign fund-raising paul should put to rest of the notion that -- abandoned. >> if rick perry stays out, and i think there's a chance he does, michele bachmann will be leading or tied in national polls by the end of the summer. >> who is she competing with? >> mitt romney. but if perry gets in, it's a big block.

>> the next president of egypt will be the former foreign men stay had hostile to america, and very hostile to israel. >> former new jersey democratic senator and goldman sachs ceo jon corzine will be considered to replace tim geithner as treasury secretary. bye-bye! >> what kind of prediction is that? >> will be considered? my, that's a strong prediction!