>> charlie: welcome to our program. we begin the new season with a conversation with leon panetta, the secretary of defense for the united states, about america and its role in e world. >> we will go after al-qaeda so that they never have the opportunity to attack this country again. >> charlie: when you say that do you mean by misles or more. >> i'm notoing to get into particularof the operations but it's pretty clear that we have very successful operations going after al-qaeda and after

their leadership in the fat. i have to tell you the pakistanis have given us some cooperation in that evident. they've given us the opportunity to be able to conduct these operations, they've given us the opportunity and work with us to go after targets to go. they just as a matter of fact within the last this hours caught an individual who is someone that we've been after for a long time. >> charlie: leon panetta for the hour, next. >> every story needs a hero we can root for that comes out on top.

this isn't just a hollywood story line, it's happening every day all across americament every time a storefront opens or the midnight oil is burned or someone chases a dream, not just a dollar. they are small business owners. so if y want to root for a real hero, support small business. shop small. captioning sponsored by rose communication from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: we begin our new fall season with leon panetta.

he was former director of the intelligence agency appoint by president obama when he came to office. he served for 16 years in the united states congress. he is director of the office of management a budget and he was also chief of staff of president clinton. we want to talk about defen policy and also look back at some of the things that happened during his tenure as director o the c.i.a. i'm very please to do have leon panetta at this table for the beginning of a new season. hodo y assess the chlenge to our security over the next ten years? >> i think the fundamental mix is one of protecting the country. and obviously in the intelligence arena, you know it was about gathering intelligence to provide to the president and leaders so that they could make the right decisions about what needed to be done. in the job of secretary of

defense, it's about actually doing the operations. it's about being in charge of thservices on men and women in uniform who have to actually go out there and duty mission. and that mains that what you have to do is make sure that there is a defined mission. that they clearly are doing whatever's necessary to try to achieve that mission and that in the end, the goal isby achiing that mission, that you're making this country safer. we're facing a myriad of threats these days. threats not only from terrorism, continuing threat from terrorism. we're involved in two wars. we've en involved in a nato mission in libya. we continue to face threats from iran and north korea. we're living in a world where

spiker security is now something to be concerned about in terms of cyber attacks. we also are ling in a world in which there are risingpowers, countries like china and brazil and india, not to mention obviously russia and others, that provide a challenge us, not only in trying to cooperate with them but making sure that ey don't undermine the stability the world. these are a mard of challenges that confront the united states of america today. and our responsibility at the defense department as it is at the state department is to do everything we can to make sure that as we engage in those various threats and crises, that we are trying our utst to protect the american people. >> charlie: you are looking for the shrinking defense department budget. how does that paying your job. >> it becomes another part of

the challenge. how do you face your responsibility to provide for national security of this country and at the same time try to mt the fiscal requirements that the country is facing. i don't think you have to choose. i've said this a number of times. i don't think you have to choose between our fiscal security and our national security. clearly we are facing a crises because of the huge deficits that the country was facing. and clearly defense is going to have to play a role in trying to achieve whatever savings w can achieve without undermining our national defense and our national strength. that's going to be the challenge. how do i achieve savings. how do i t to implement efficiencies and at the same time make sure that we protect the strongest and finest military force in the world. i think there are ways to doing.

obviously the congress and the president signed off on an initial set of savings we're going to have to implement. >> charlie: a hundred billion dollars -- >> something like that, over 12 years. i'm working with the service chiefs, i'm working with all of our staffs within the pentagon to say okay, how can we do this in a y that obviously implements sufficiencies, implements reforms but creates a national defense that not only protects us today but will protect us in five to ten years down the road. i think we have to establish a vision where we want our national defense to be and to be able to get there. it's going to have to be more agile and flexible. we need the kind of weaponry. we need better efficiencies and

procurement as well as i other management areas. and at the same time we're going to have to protect our commitment to the troops and theifamilies because at the heart of our national defse system, is a voluntary force. soe've goto be able to do all of this without breaking faith with those that put their lives on the line ultimately an really are the ones who are the key to whether or not our defense system works or not. >> charlie: when you say you draw the the line for retirement benefits for members of the armed services. >> having been an o.m.b. director and chairman of the budget committee and the congress, i have always approached these issues by saying we've got to put everything on the table. you've got to look at everything. i think that's the way to do it. >> charlie: having mind

resistent vehicles especially something servicemen have been talking about for years. >> you got to look at everything you've got to be able to talk it through, look at those systems. you've got to decide what's important, what's not important, what reforms can be made. when you're facing $400 combin reduction over 12 years if you're going to do it right you have to look at every aa. now does that mean we have to hollow out the force? no. does it mean we have to break faith with troopsnd their families? no. i think there are ways to implement these reforms in the future that don't break faith with people that have been deployed a number of times and that have depended on the benefits tha we provided to them. that's important. i think we've got -- in the precurement area alone the amount of money spent in that area requires that we implement the best efficiencies that we implement competition. >> charlie: you have been to afghanistan, you've been to iraq, you have traveled with

foreign ministers and foreign secretaries of defense and more than ministers of defense. what are they saying to you that they want from the united states? >> i think the most important thing they stress is that they have to be able to trust the united states. wh we give our work. when we say we're going to do something, when we say we're going to help them, when we say we're going to be there, that they have to trust that that's going to happen. that's very important. >> charlie: we will not awe band. >> we will not turn our back and walk away from them. the element of trust is very important. the element of reliability is very important. the fact that we have to be a dependable alliance partner is very important is very important that they can depend oust. when it comes to our troops, the most important issue for our

troops is in many ways the same thing, trust. that we are going to be there, that when we say we're going to provide certain benefits, we'll stick to it. when we say we'll not break faith with our troops and their families that we'll stick to that. we'll care for them if they're wounded. that we will be there for them because of what they're doing to try to protect this cntry. i would say the most common defense whether i'm talking to a trooper or not is trust. >> charlie: what about the war in iraq. >> we are in the process of drawing down our combat forces and i think the president has made clear that we will draw down our combat forces, all of our combat forces by the end of the year. the real question now is going to be what kind of presence are we going to continue to have

there. are or are we going to ctinue to have a presence there. they have indicated, the iraqis have indicated, presidt maliki has indicated he does want to have some kind of training assistance. and so the issue of what that will look like, how many will be ere is something that has to be negotiated with the iraqis. >> what's the influence of iran today in iraq. >> i think iran continues to try to exert a very very large influence with regards to what's happening in iraqi. >> in what way? >> they clearly continue to provide weaponry to shiite extremist groups. they clearly try to exterritory pressure on the government of iraq. they continue to try to make

clear they want to have a large influence over the direction of what happens in iraq as opposed to the united states or anybody else. and the end result is that we remain very concerned. that iran continues to undermine and tries to undermine the stability of iraq. >> charlie: what do iraqi officials say about ts? >> the iraqis shared the concern. i mean president maliki, i've talked to him directly about this issue and said look we can't tolerate this. we cannot tolerate having a radiance, provide weapons to extremists to kill americans. that is not terated. and he agrees. he agrees. see that cannot be tolerated. and to his credit, he's actually taken steps to try to make clear to the iranians that this cannot haen. and beyond that, they've actually condued operations against some of these groups to

try to reduce their ability to conduct those kinds of attacks. so i really can't complain about the cooperation we've gotten from the iraqis in assisting this to try to go after these groups that are attacking our forces. >> charlie: what's the timetable for afghanistan? >> on afghanistan, the timetable right now pursuant to what the president has directed is that we will begin the process of drawing down the surge group. >> charlie: 23,000. >> we'll start with 10,000 by the end of this year and the remainder will be done by the end of the summer of 20 126789 en the planning will begin for the larger draw down through 2014. hour goal right now is to by 2014 again be able to draw down most of our combat forces.

>> charlie: what is your assessment of how that battle is going between the taliban and the afghan forces and the american forces and the anyway toe forces? >> i think right now, i really feel good progress has been made. first of all we've got a very good team there with general john allen and with ambassador crocker. they are working very effectively with president karzai, they're working very effectively with the afghans in trying to make sure that we put the best policies in place. secondly, we have in fact seriously weakened the taliban. we expected a greater offense than what took place. and think in large measure, the reason it didn't take place is because of our operations, because of the increased security. we have reduced the influence of the taliban, and as a result have given afghanistan back to the afghanistans to be able to

control their own fate. thirdly, we have increased the number in the army and in the police significantly. we're on target. and they are doing the job. more importantly, they're doing the job. they're going out with our troops, they're putting themselves on the line. they're in battle. and they're doing a good job. so i'm feeling much better about the situation in terms of as we transition being able to turn more of this over to them. the fourth part is the ability to transition togoverning, and that's a larger question mark, the ability of the afghans to be able to exert the kind of governing that they have to do in order to provide stability for the futur >> charlie: are we making any progress on that? are we confident that karzai is trying. >> i think he is trying and i think we've made kind of the first transition. we've transitioned a number of areas now over to the afghans.

that's the first of areas that we said you're now in control and it's working very well. we've got a number of other tranches to go through. but their ability to transition and the ability to provide security, provide the governing is going to be very important. and i think while the touest area still remained to be done, that i'm at least encouraged that these first steps in the transition are working and working well. and we're learnin lessons, we'r implementing those lessons and i think i gives me some hope that by 2014 we will be well on the path towards making the kindof transition to an afghan that can secure itself and govern itself for the future. >> charlie: 2014 is when karzai's term ends. >> that's correct. >> charlie: his brother was assassinated by a member of the security team and the taliban

took credit. they have begun a campaign of those kinds of fascination. do you viewhat as a sign of strength or weakness. >> i think it's a sign of weakness. they have not been conducting the large attacks that they have in the past. they've been unable to do that and i think they're resorting to these kind of pinpoint assassinations as a way to make a point they're still around and they still can cause trouble in afghanistan. but i read it as a sign of weakness not a sign of strength. >> charlie: are you negotiating with that taliban. >> i think if you're going to engage in reconciliation, you've got to reach out to those that are intereed in seeing whether they meet our conditions or not. i mean the y there is meeting the condition that the united states that the afghans set down. those are pretty clear. they've got to be able to stop the violence, to give up their arms. to become a part of the government there. >> charlie: to give up their

arms? >> to give up their arm to become a part of their government, and to renounce al-qaeda. i mean those are kind of the basic conditions that we've always said are important in terms of reconciliation. so those discussions continue. i think they havto be part of the political process that ultimately comes together in afghanistan if it's going to be successful. >> charlie: who is handling those negotiations. this is the u.s. military? is it the afghan government or is it both. >> yes. it's got to be both. the afghans have to i think as the president's made clear the afghans have to lead this effort and they are. obviously we have to be part of that process. frankly pakistan wants to be part of that process as well. because if you're going to really have successful reconciliation, all of those elements have to be part of the solution. >> charlie: you had a meeting with the hd of ifi after osama bin laden was killed.

questions arose, are they on whose side. this is not a new question for you. >> no, it's not. >> charlie: okay. what's the awer? i mean, do you believe at this government, the united states government that you represent hasull cooperation with the i.s.i. in terms of t battle with afghanistan? >> as i've often said it's a very complicated relationship with the pakistanis. >> charlie: you met with the head of i.s.i. >> i met with general pasha a number of times and also wi general kaini a numbe of times. and have made very clear to them that they can't pick and chose among terrorists. that terrorism is a threat to their country and a threat to our country. >> charlie: they can't have a relationship with the kaini group. >> if you're against terrorism, you have to be against all forms

of terrorism. you can't just pick and chose among them. secondly, that the united states has the responsibility to protect our country. and we are going to protect our country from those that plan to attack the united states. al-qaeda would you tell question had a large presence in fatah, the tribal areas of pakistan. they were planning, continuing to plan to attack our country from their. and i made very clear that the pakistanis of the united states is going to defend ourselves and that means going after them in the fatah, we will. >> charlie: he'll invade their sovereignty. >> we'll go after allege -- amn the fatah so they don't have the opportunity to attack this country again. >> chaie: by that do you mean by drone missiles or more. >> i'm not going to get into particulars of the operation but it's pretty clear we have successful operations going after al-qaeda and after their

leadership in the fatah. and i have to tell you that the pakistanis have given us some cooperation. they've given us the opportunity to work with us to go after targets gether. they just as a matter of fact within the last this hours called an individual called moretainy. >> charlie: the pakistanis caught him. >> the pakistanis caught him working with us. they've worked with us to go after those kinds of targets and they've indicated a willingness to do that. at the same time i think we have to recognize that pakistan is a critical country in that region of the world. not only in terms of trying to give us some cooperation in the war we are conducting here but also because they are a nuclear

power. also because they themselves are in the effort to try to confront terrorism there. but also because they can be extremely important to us in the effort to provide stability in afghanistan and other areas. they have to be, they have to play a role in that. so for that reason, while we don't agree on evething we do obviously while we have controversies and differences in a number of areas we have to do everything possible to work with them. >> charlie: the shock wave of the killing of osama bin laden for them in a place that people said hiding in plain sight. have they gotten over that mission? >> it's taken a while. they obviously, they obviously were shocked by what took place. and i think it, you know, in a

country where you don't have kind of strong political leadership. everybody kind of reliedn strong military leadership. and suddenly there were questions raised about how strong was the military leadership there if in fact bin laden could establish a presence not too far fromhe military academy. >> charlie: what do you now believe about at they knew and who knew that he was there. >> you know, everyone has had their suspicions because here's abadbad. i have to tell you i never see direct evidence that they themselves were directly involved. >> charlie: the i.s.i.nd the military. >> that's correct. >> charlie: he clearly hado have a support group. >> again it's a personal

suspicion. he must have. the interesting thing, charlie was this. that you would assume that bin laden, who is in this large compound. i mean our suspicions were always well they've got to have a tunnel for an escape. they've got to have a hole in the wall they can hide in. they've got to have a way to get out the back door if there's any kind of raid. surely they've planned for all of that. i can't tell you how long we discussed the possibilities of what will happen onc we raid and he's gone or how was he gone. and yet when he was trapped on the third floor of that compound, what it told me is that he was hoping to get some kind of warning if something like that were to happen. >> charlie: suggesting that he thought there wassome source

in the pakistani government saying you got time to get out because i know the americans are comingecause theytold us. >> i can't tell you that it was a pakistani individual or i.s.i. or anybody else that would provide that warning. i am convinced that somebody was targetedo provide that warning in the event that something like that would has not. but i can't tell you who that wa >> charlie: and it didn't happen. >> and it didn't happen. >> chaie: tell me about the mission. i was going to talk about it later but you have had i would assume two defining moments as the director, your previous job. one was the loss of those brave seven patriots in a remote out post in afghanistan. we'll talk about that in a minute. that was an awful awful moment for the united states, for the c.i.a. for the director of the c.i.a. and for everyone. secondly it was the capture and killing of osama bin laden. tell me about this mission.

>> as the president made clear that session in the oval office, he said your first priority is to go after bin laden. and it was my priority. i mean, i can't tell you how many people basically would say why haven't you found bin laden. >> charlie: that's even from foreign governments. >> absolutely, absolutely. as director of the.i.a. i was asking what's going o there was a task force working on this issue following every lead, running into dead ends, not being able to find any kind of break in terms of the information for a long time. but nevertheless, they continued to pursue every possible lead. >> charlie: even if it turned out to be a dry hole, you followed it. >> eveif it was a dry hole you continued to go after it. what you required was that the

provide me weekly summaries of what was going o whether it was good or bad or if they found anything or not, i want a continuous update as to what was going on. i think sometime last summer that for the first time we had a real break that they were able to go after these couriers that had worked for bin laden, was able to identify them and was able to follow them to this compound. when we obviously looked at that compound and the nature of it, here's this large compound with 18-foot walls around that compound. and on the third floor which was interesting for me, on the third floor they had an eight foot wall around the third floor. normally if you have a third floor you like the view. not here. >> charlie: you don't want a view. >> it's pretty clear that something was unusual. >> charlie: there was no photograph, there was no evidence he was there.

>> that's correct. >> charlie: you could not say to the president, we have a picture, we have testimony that he's there. >> that's correct. that's correct. i mean look, we knew these couriers had worked for him. we knew this was an unusu compound. charlie: what would ty do, go bring messages in and out. we assume, that's what we were able to observe is them doing that kind of thing. and we tracked it for a long time trying to determine whether or not we could find bin laden there. and what ultimately happened, because of the tremendous expertise in the intelligence community, they were actually able ultimately to identify the number of people in the families that were there. and that the families that were there resembled very much the family bin laden had. combining all of those factors -- >> charlie: did anybody tell you he was there? >> no. >> charlie: okay. >> nobody told us.

we had no direct evidence that bin laden was there. he was a all circumstantial. >> charlie: right. combining all the factors you started to say. >> combining all the factors from all of our intelligence we v the signal intelligence as well as the observation as well as human intelligence, the bottom line was that while we could not say definitively that bin laden was there, it was the best case we had as to his location. >> charlie: had anybody seen him between tora bora that you knew. >> no. >> charlie: you were looking and trying and talking with everybody and no one could say i know he was in there because they thought at one point he was in a cavein pakistan. that was the convention wisdom that he was somelace, either in a cave or elsewhere. >> charlie: you must have had some people say to you that doesn't make sense he's not in a

cave somewhere he's in pakistan because we've found lot of other people in pakistan. >> there are all kinds of theories obviously you're dealing with as to where he was, where he could possibly be living, was his family near him. and all of those questions had been looked at time and time and time again. t asi said for the first time with the abadabad compound, we wereble to awe symbol enough information that gave us some sense of cfidence that this was something worth pursuing. >> charlie: why did this story develop at the beginning instantly that somehow he had resisted or something like that. >> you know, it was obvious that th were caught by surprise. there was resistance, there was a fight that took place by the brothers. once a fire fht begins andou go after bin laden, you have to

assume the worse. >> charlie: as soon as they saw him, they would shoot him. >> they knew tt in the end, they were dealing with the worst criminal in the world for what he had done on 9/11. >> charlie: what did you know as you watched this? as you and the president watchd this unfold. >> there was a lot of questions about the operation and the risks involved. you have to assume you're going 150 miles into another country with the very best in the military conducting that evident. but nevertheless, they're going a long way in, that they could be found out, that once they got there, bin laden might not be there. that they cod be, they could be in a fire fight with

pakistanis at that point. how do we get him out. there were a number of ris involved here. i have to say all of those were discussed thoroughly by the n.f.c. and with the president. and to the president's credit, i think he probably made one of the toughest decisio that a president can make which is that the decision to go ahead with that mission, knowing all of the risks that were involved. when we actually conducted the mission, because it was a so-called title 50 operation, i was basically operating out of the c.i.a. and working with our military liaison that we're actually conducting the operation. i was there following it, trying to see what happened. at the whitehouse obviously they were assembled and following te same thing. >> charlie: you could see and

hear real time. >> we knew what was taking place. when the helicopter went down, the first helicopter went down, obviously a lot of nervousness about what that would mean to the mission. >> charlie: thinking the helicopter's in the desert. >> you sa that the faces of the people at the whitehouse as well. one of the things thatgave me confidence was the quality experience of the military special forces that went in. i mn, they were incredible. they do these operations all the time. but theiability to go in, if something happens, they continue the mission. they went in and did what they hato do and they got out of there. it was incredible and it just restored my since of confidence that these are the very best we have. >> charlie: what we have learned from the treasure trove of information on the hard drive of a computer? >> i think we did get a lot of intelligence.

that's another great thing. theseguysre going in. they know they have to go after bin laden. they're in fire fight, they've got to get out of there and yet they gather all of the intelligence they can gather. that was remarkable that they were able to get as much intelligence as they did. as a result of that obviously we got tremendous insights into the bin laden operation. >> charlie: we learned he w short of cash. >> well , they were hurting in terms of their finances. we actually knew this from intelligence even before the raid, th were having a much harder time developing the financial support they had in the past. i think a large part of that was frankly the efforts to go after their leadership or undermine their leadership and command and control. when you have people on the run it's very tough to raise money and stay on the run at the same time. >> charlie: this raid and the

drones has made a really change. >> i think we have learned a great deal about the capabilities that we do have to be able to conduct very sophisticateand targeted operations. these are probably the most precise weapons in the history of warfare, and they are used very effectively to go after a very precise target. >> charlie: and still there are civilian casualties, sometimes unavoidable. >> there are, but i have to tell you as director of the c.i.a., that's been true not only for me but those that have followed me that if there are any civilians in the shot, they'll take it. >> charlie: in libya now they've captured the compound of qaddafi, there are stories about the caption between the byan security apparatus and the

c.i.a. and the british intelligence. can you tell us about that? >> i can't obviously go into the details of that kind of operation. i mean i think it suffices to say that there was clear a state department presence and intelligence presence there to gather intelligence as to what was happening there, what was going on with the t.m.c., what was going on with the opposition and try to learn as much as possible about their abilities, capabilities, weaknesses, strengths, in order to try to do what we can to assist. >> charlie: also might have been some rendition. >> there was again, i'm not going to talk about the specific details. >> charlie: arab spring. how does it change america's, how does it change the battle against terrorism first of all. how does it change the reality in terms of the u.s. presence in that part of the world?

>> i really do view the arab spring as a monumental moment in terms of the politics of the mitle east and the futur of the middle east. i think the reality is that the changes that are taking place, people coming together to try to seek the same kind of rights and opportunities and freedoms that others enjoy in this world. and to eliminate dictatships that hadrevailed there. all of this i think is a good sign for the future. i mean, it doesn't mean there aren't risks. of course there are risks involved as this happens. but the fact that it's happened in tunisia, in egypt, in libya,

in syr, these changes i tnk a, send a clear signal to ira that they're not winning in that part of the world. they send a clear signal to al-qaeda, that the jihadist ideology is not winning in that part of the world. >> charlie: this is in terms of democracy and having a role in your own future. >> it doesn't mean it's going to challenge the united states and other countries to try to really exercise the right kind of leadership reader laddership takes place. it's very important as leadership takes police that we allow people in those countries to taker the lead and do this the way they feel is important to achieve. but that we provide whatever support we can, the united states, nato, our allies, the

arab league,ll workin together to try to provide a support system as these chiedgesz take place. >> charlie: does that offer theossibility of a participation by outside forces. >> charlie, as you deal with each of these changes that are taki place in that parof the world, i don't think you n kind of take a cookie cutter approach and say what worked here is going to work here and going to work here. we've got to take these case by case. charlie: and it depends on the institution like the army on one hand. >> you had theilitary in egypt play a large role. you had a much more organized opposition in libya. in syria that is very much a people movement that's taking place. i think the approach there has been to try to put as much international pressure,

sanctions on saassas to try to get him to step down. when you start shooting people in the treats you lose legit me of power. >> charlie: >> charlie:en the leader has said we can't do this. >> you cannot do that and expect to be legitimate in the eyes of the people of that couny. and i think assad sts just like qaddafi. >> charlie: where is qaddafi? >> we would all love to know the answer to that one. we'll find him. >> charlie: do you think he's likely in libya? >> don't know. i think he's been taking a lot of teps to make sure that in the end he couldry to get out if he had to. but as to where, when and how that will take place we don't

know. >> charlie: he had to have thought about this. >> he had. >> charlie: washington post is doing a series and you know what the subject is. since september 11, c.i.a. focus has taken a lethal turn. so it's a different c.i.a. now. and people worry that it's not just intelligence gathering, 's the militarization of the c.i.a. >> well, i think we do have to be cautious how we engage with operations. but part of the mission here, part of the goal as i said is to protect the united states of america. and at the c.i.a. you do that obviously by gathering the very best intelligence you can and maki sure that it's accurate,

making sure that it provides information you can give the leaders of our country so they can make the correct decisions. that's the importantole for the c.i.a. a one that continues. but secondly there are operations thathave to be conducted. sometimes it's for the purpose of gathering human intelligence. sometimes it's for the purpose of going after an enemy where the operations that they can conduct the cia can conduct are the most effective way to be able to go after an enemy. i think the president of the united states need to have that kind of flexibility. >> charlie: if you need the c.i.a. to do the j then they're prepared to do the job. >> exactly. >> charlie: if it includes a para military kind of action they're prepared to do the job. >> in the end the president of the united states. th is t the c.i.a. working on its own. it's operating pursuant to the directions of the president of the united states. if the president of the united

states believes that's the best way to try to protect this country, the president ought to have the flexibility to do that. >> charlie: are we changing the distinctions between what groups do what in military warfare in the 21st century in 2011. >> i don't think there's any question if you're going toave an effective defense system for the united states of america, it has to adapt to the threats that are out there. you can't justsay here's a particular teat that's coming in the united states so we're going to invade and we're going to put 200,000 groups there and attack. you got to look at each threat, you got to look at each crises and determine what's the st effective way to be able to respond. as i said at the beginning, we're dealing with a myriad of threats. these aren't just coming in one fashion. they're coming in a number of directions. we are fighting some wars. we've got troops on the ground

that are fighting wars in a very conventional way in terms of both iraq and afghanistan. but at the same time, we are deploying forces that are going after targets. the special forces operations have become much more effective at being able to target those who would plan to attack us. and that has become an effective operation asell. you mentioned the c.i.a.'s operations. when it cos to iran and north korea, how do we con confront te real peace in the world. how do we deal with that nd of threat. you have to approach that from a different angle as well. cyber attacks. we get literally hundreds of thousands of awe -- attacks now through cyber. how can we defend against it and

be aggressive to after when we know these attacks e coming. also force projectio the unitedtates in many ways, particularly wi regards to asia, the best way we check power in that part of the world is through force projection. >> so you say to everybody in the preaj, especially the chinese we are a specific power and we intend tostay a specific power. >> exactly. you've got to make that point. when you look at the myriad of threats, the united states defense system cannot be locked into one kind o s.o.p. or standard approach. we've got to be flexible and agile and be ableo respond to each threat. >> charlie: when do we go in because of extreme human rights violation. we went to libya because ben

gauzy was about to be overrun. >> we are protecng the national security in this country and whether we consider something to be a threat to our security. that ought to be the first premise. >> charlie: that's the first question but that answer that might not necessarily determine whether you proceed further. >> exactly. because the second part of this is that we also have to be part of an international effort to try to make certain that we are fulfilling our responsibilities as partners in the world to dl with the challens that may come up, the threats that may come up. in this situation when the united nations need the determination that hum tainer lives were at stake, passed a resolution that we ought to try to protect those lives. and the arab league said we ought to take steps here to try to protect them as well.

when all of that came together it seems to me that the united states as a world leader and a world partner has a responsibility to say we're going to be there when you need us to be able to ensure that we are accomplishing the mission that you and others say we nee to accomplish. >> charlie: the question often -- >> it's that element of trust. >> charlie: back to trust. it is also a question that comes up in iran at the time of the protest against the election. what do you do, how much support, even verbal support do you show because sometimes the people in the street don't want it to look like they somehow are a tool of americans or somehow the americans are at all involved in this. so you have to measure constantly what you can do or say. >> charlie t way to approach these things, you have to

recognize our ability to deal with all these crises i talked about it's not just a military responsibility it's also a diplomatic responsibility. if you're talking about national security in this country, it isn't something that is just a tank and a gun and an airplane. it's got to be de -- diplomacys well. it's that diplomatic strength that gives us the ability to try to provide direction to the world and try to assist it so it heads in the right way. i think with regards to iran, obviously you've got to be, when people take to the streets, you know, you should try to take every step to try to support their evident. effort. but we have to analyze to make sure we do nothing that creates a backlash or undermines those efforts. that's not always an easy call but it's the kind of call we're going to have to make in the future as well a the past. >> charlie: what do we say to the reform movement in the iran.

>> i think the reform movement in iran is learning a hell of a lot from what's happened in tunisia and egypt and libya and syria. >> charlie: even though iran is not an arab country, the arab spring could spread. >> absolutely. >> charlie: yousee evidence of that? >> i think we saw some evidence of that in the last election with iran. there was a movement within iran that raised those very same concerns that we're seeing elsewhere. and i think in many ways it's a matter of time before that kind of change reform and revolution occurs in iran as well. >> charlie: it always requires brave people willing to risk their life for their country to get it started, to strike the match like it happened in tunisia. >> one of the issues we were looking at when tunisia and egypt happened is what sparked this. at made this all happen.

mean, why is it taking place now? and there were a number of factors that were involved. part of it w the economic condition, part of it was a youthful population in those countries that didn't have a lot of hope and a lot of sense they were going to be able to get ahead. part of it was social media and the tremendous impact that social media has in these areas. part of it was just the fact that they had had enough. that they knew their lives could be better. and that they didn't have to tolerate the kind of lives that they were leading. all of those factorsame together to produce the changes that we've seen. and i think in many ways, you know, the spark that brings people together to have the bravery and the courage to take

the military, to takon a tyrant. the fact is when people decide that that moment has come, that's a moment when tremendous change is with to happen. and i think it's true not only in the middle east, it's going to be true in iran as well. >> charlie: it reminds me of human rights cases. people suffering human rights abuses in whatever part of the world. they say theost important thing for me to know was if somebody knew i was there and somebody cared. >> that's right. >> charlie: somebody lieved or understood what i was fighting for and the value i believed in and the reason i was there and they were not going to let me be lost. >> i think that sense that there's someone standing beside you who share the same

concerns, the same feelings and is prepared to make that kind of sacrifice if necessary. it's when those ingredients come together when these changes occur. >> charlie: you're the son of italian immigrants. >> yes, i am. >> charlie: worked in your father's restaurant. >> yes. >> charlie: went on to become chairman of the house budget committee, served in congress for 16 years. chief of staff to the president of the united states. director of the central intelligence agency and now secretary of defense. this is an american story, it really is. >> it is. i've often said, i use to ask my father as immigrants, why did you travel all that distance to come to this country. and i knew, they came from a poor area in italy, but they had the comfort of family. why would you suddenly pick up

and travel all that distance. no skills, no language ability, no sense of where they were going. why would you do that. my father said the reason we did it is because we really believed we could give our children a better life. and i think that's the american dream. and in many ways i've lived that american dream. i can't tell you, even having been elected to congress, walking over to the capitol and seeing the capitol lift up at night. the impact that had on me knowing i was there and in many ways i was fulfilling that dream was just an uncredible sense of with a america is all about. the same thing was true in the whitehouse. you suddenly walk in the oval office, the center of power in the world and you're there. you have to always remind yourself that this is part. i mean the real story of america is the kind of opportunities that we provide people to be

able to do what i do. >> charlie: that would be the essential american's dream. >> exactly. >> charlie: the system, the values, the democracy. >> that's right. >> charlie: did they live to see you what? >> my mother died, i was actually in the army at the time. >> charlie intelligence officer. >> that's right, intelligence officer in the army. and mother died and then my father, thank god, saw me elected to congress and he saw me as a member of congress. and i think it was a tremendous reward for him to be able to see that happen. >> charlie: thank you for coming. >> my pleasure.