>> charlie: welcome to our program. tonight tom friedman of the new york times and michael mandelbaum of johns hopkins university talk about an america and its future. their book is called "that used to be us: how america fell behind in the world it in vented and how we can come ba." >> forge go ahead while we're falling behind in the minds of americans and our nervousness about china is really of a

reflection of our discontent with urselves. china is a vastly important factor in the world of 21st century but we don't need to imitate china. what we need to do in order to thrive in the 21st century is back it our traditions. >> our traditions have to change. the world is going through a fundamental transformation for another 100 years and china and europe's going through the same thing so we're at an unstable time and why doubly so we're seeing the people where you need a strong america. >> charlie: we conclude wit images of 9/11 by david friend of vanity fair with a book "watching the world change." >> i still go through the sies of emotions a think a lot of new yorkers do and americans do. rage then sorw and think we

still go through that. time does heal and it's one of the things in photography we look in the photographs we see and it helps us commemorate and helps us move on. >> charlie: friedmanfriedman, m lm and friend.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: the first decade of the 21st centu has been one of change and seen the rise of new world powers. it has led to questions about

america's role in the world and ho to remain competitive. tom friedman and johns hopkins professor michael mandelbaum have a new ok and i'm pleased to have them here at this table. welcome. here's the first question tugh why are you quoted michael mandelbaum so often in the column. i now know, you talk to him all the time. >> the book outed our relationship. michael and i have been interl c intellectual friends and neighbors and we talk every day and noticed, charlie over the last couple years we talk about foreign policy and always end up talking about america and we nally realized that america's future, vigor, vality is the

biggest foreign policy issue in the world and couldn't continue talking about foreign policy until we wrestle with that and that's what prompted the book. >> charlie: what's the book about, mike? >> about the four major challenges the united states faces. the challenges of globalization, the information technology revolution, our deficits in debt not just at the federal but state and local levels and the challenges posed our pattern of energy consumption and the impact on the climate. those four challenges and how we meet them and whether we meet them will determine america's economic growth in the future and that will determine the kind of society we have. the american dream, the ability to pass on a better life to the next generation is at stake in how we cope with these four challenges which form the spine of the book as is, as tom said, the american role in the world. and unfortunately we're not

doing well. we're failing. we explain in the book what the challenges are, why we've been ignoring them and what we need to do to bring america back to what it has been and should be. >> charlie: >> we started the book and michael came over we sat in my office and as always the book starts on the back of an envelope and but i think the best part of writing it i think weoth say is what you discover along e way and in one of the big things that i think we discovered which i think is -- makes the book, charlie, in some ways certain for us a how-to book in the sense it's a survival guide for parents, for ucators for business people and government. how to navige the world now because what we tried do is start the conversation where we think the country should be started the conversation now what world are we living in? and what we realized as we got into the book is we're not just living in a connected world but a hypercohyperconnected world a

something's happened over the last few years in particular that has taken the connectivity story who a new world. the way i describe it is when we sat down to work on this one day i called michael and i said i looked up i got the first edition of the wld is flat and i worked on that in 2004 and started and it looked under f and facebook wasn't in it and as i've been telling people twitters with a sound, the cloud was in the sky, g was a parking place and linked in was a prin and for most people skype was a typo and all that changed charlie in just the last six years. >> charlie: and the impact of it changing? >> the impactof it changing is the most important impact for moms and dad and kids and employers is the global curve

has risen in terms of what you need it do to have a good job. look around the studio. there isn't a camera person here. they're all robotic. first time on the show i think there were probably seven or eight camera people here. that's true across every industry and every occupation so there's -- >> charlie: connectivity has led to a change in the work force. >> employers have so much more access to automation and robots and not just cheap labor but chp genius anywhere around the world and we have a chapter in the book called average is over. woody allen's saying is 80% of life is showing up. if you just show up now you're not going get the returns you might hope for. >> charlie: you also say the book begins with china too in part because -- >> because china is in the view of many americans forge go ahead while we're falling behind.

what we say is that our nervousness about china is really a reflection of our discontent with ourselves. china is a vastly important factor in the world of the 21st century but we don't needo imitate china. what we need to do in order to thrive in the 21st century is to get back to our own best traditns, our own best practices. >> charlie: like we used to be. >> like we used to be and that's why a book about the american future and how to navigate it has a backward looking title, that used to be us. if we look it our history and what we call our formula for a public-private partnership for success which has five parts and goes back all the way to the beginning of the remember to alexander hamilton. if we look to basic american values we've drifted away from and the essence of amera we will find we have what it takes to master the challenges as long

as we can get our act together. one message of the book is we can do it. the other message is here's what we have to do that we're not doing in order to thri in the future. >> chaie: and what do we hav to do at we're not doing? >> well, there's a huge education challenge. in fact almost a quarter of the book is taken up with education. globalization in the i.t. revolution put enormous pressure on every job. there are two billion more people in the global work force than there were 20 years ago. that creates enormous opportunities for the united states. it's a win-win situation but there's much more competition for every job and that means that everybody has to be better at his or her job and it means that in order to solve our jobs crisis we have to invent more jobs and the burden ultimately rests on the education system. we need more education and better education and we explain in the book what both involve in our view.

>> charlie: and you say we have to be creative or creative surfers aning -- >> this is a concept that i read in the wall street journal basically there are creators and surfers. he goes into more detail. creators are people who invent and adapt and re-engineer and the others are butcher, baker and candle stick maker to put it crudely. and that's changed. in the old days you'd say i'm a lawyer. i'm a creator. now you have to be a creative lawyer, okay. the old days you might say i'm a baker. now you have to be a creative baker. it's not enough to say i'm a butcher, baker, candle stick maker or my job is safe, i'm a lawyer. we have a chapter in the book called help wanted. we try to do this and walked

around to four generic employers. national law firm and lowend white collar where i started world is flat and green collar the u.s. army and what we found from all four is they're all looking for the same employee and wh are they looking for? people what can do critical think and reasoning, dot, dot, dot to get an interview. no they want to know can you invent, re-invent and re-engineer the job. you have to be a creative creator or creative surfer. >> charlie: and that message is getting across you think? >> everybody who runs a busine s businesses this and the evidence is that our education system is not producing the people with the skills we need.

we have a lot to say about education. we have a section on education. first we have two education problems, first, we have to lift up the people at the bottom of the scale because if they don't do better they're not going to be employable under any circumstances and we also have to get the average hire because we're competing with people all over the world so that's one point. the secondoint just as war is too important to be left to the generals, so teaching is to important to be left to the teachers. it doesn't mean teaching isn't important and we have a lot to say about teaching but it's a national problem. we can't just outsource this responsibility to teachers. the whole cntry has to make a commitment to better education and in fact we say in the book this is our number one national security challenge going forward. the third lesson we dw is some how we have to try to teach people to be creative.

to be creative servers or creators and we have awhole chapter on different people trying to do that. we don't know quite how to do that but that's an enormous responsibility of our education system going forward to prepare people for the 21st century. >> charlie: and another is immigration and the work force. >> yeah, we really argu we had the formula for success in this count ary an country and it goes bac t to educate the population whether it's the cotto cotton gin or su computer and the second is immiation. attract the world's best talent and start 30% and 40% of the companies and trd is have the best infrastructure and have the best rules for capital and risk

taking and preventing recklessness and research to push the boundaries of knowledge so entrepreneurs can pluck the best flowers and turn them into company. that formula starts with hamilton and lin lincoln and the all falling off the table. >> charlie: here's what's interesting too as you point out, after the cold war ended with the fall of the berlin war and the soviet union became russia, all of a sudden the united states stood there number one and what we didn't realize is there were two billion new people looking for all the things that america had and somebody was gonna take note of that and build on it. it wasn't necessarily us. what hapned? >> we did something as we say in the book, that can be fatal, we failed to understand our

environment. we took the end of the cold war as a giant victory and it was a giant victory but it also presented us precisely as you say because it brought two billion new people in the global work force and presented a huge challenge and we didn't recognize it and we threw a party and then came september 11 and we responded as we had to respond t we also over responded. we went around chasing the losers from globalization and forgot about the winners in east asia and forgot about dealing with our domestic challenges which are ultimately crucial for dealing with the world so we've had two decades of drift and we got to get back on track. we've got to back to our five-part formula tom note and that's the responsibility of the political system and also the responsibility of all of us.

this is written for political leaders and for citizens because in the end the responsibility for getting the country to focus on the things that really matter are rest with us. >> charlie: our politics have failed us. >> i think one of my favorite quotes if the book is from mike murphy. he worked a long time political campaign consultant and mccain and mike tells this story. he had a friend in the advertising business and came to him one day and i'm paraphrasin and said why did mcdonald's never attack burger king or burger king never attack mcdonald and he said never kim the category. why didn't they say the mcdonald's burgers have maggots and we killed the cagory of politics right when we need it most. basically with money, gehrmoney

gerrymanderring and we're having a financial crisis and our politicians have having an election and it's like the two circlesearly overlap. >> charlie: why don't they overlap on the eve of the president making a big speech trying to say the understands the economic collapse and will try to setforth a plan and try to garner support in the political arena to enact a plan. >> i think he's been trying to make it relevant but i don't know if the system has made it relevant. misc

misc michelle bachmann said she's bringing back two dollar a gallon gasoline and we argue in the chapter on politics you need a third party and the reason is you have to change the incentives. we're believers in incentives. move the cheese, move the mouse. don't move t cheese and the mouse doesn't move. we have to move the cheese for the politicians. >> charlie: how do we do that? >> we have to add to that -- [laughter] >> the political system and this is something that political science has been saying it's become more polarizednd the se of the party is far out from where the country is and that's because of a series of social pitical and economic trends over the last 40 years which go beyondkn+ any administration, policy and candidate and because that's

true we believe the political system i now unable to give this policy we need and needs a shot from the out side. if president obama or governor perry or romney embas embrace t policies we need that's great. but what happened to the political system trapped the politicians. we need a serious deficit reduction package and that means we have to cut entitlements. >> charlie: he said he was prepared but i haven't seen it. >> we haven't heard from him and in order to do that you have to lead the country and get out front and say it and that's taboo among republicans. >> charlie: that's also leadership. >> you also have to raise revenues and that's taboo among republicans and we have to spend

more money on the formula and infrastructure according to one study we cite and more on research and develment. we have to cut, we have to increase revenue and spend more all athe same time and our observation is the incentives of the political system is such is that no political leader even if he or she is able to say that and become politic viable. >> charlie: and the best chance of a third party was michael bloomberg and was willing to spend a lot to pursue it said it's not viable. have circutances changed so you think michael bloomberg is wrong? >> here's what we argue. an independent candidate cannot be elected president. if you run as an independent candidate you won't be president. what you can do is change the

agen of the country because if you get enough votes on a radical centerist platform the voters will be shown to be people dissatisfied by both parties and accessible to each and they'll have an incentive to co-op the third agenda and the most important thing to us is not the candidate but the agenda. this is e agenda we need to sustain american greatness and if we don't have the political system embracing it and we're not saying republican and democrats have to join hands and say kumbaya there will always be disagreements, there should be disagreements because that's what democracy is about but in order for the country to progress we have to have disagreements about the relevant issues and that's not happening now. >> charlie: another point about this around theorner is you went to china in 2010 to one of these world economic form conferences in china and you're

in this magnificent place and you think, god, they've got all this stuff and thenou had what thought? >> then i come home and michael and i live in bethesda, maryland and we take the subway to work both of us often and go to the subway and the escalators there had been broken or in repair for six months each one with 21 stairs and ias struck that it was struck too but china built this convention center in 8.5 months and they were taking six months to prepare 21 stairs in the escalator and again as michael said, this is not one of these oh, if we're only china, no. china figures into this book in two pages i think. what we're trying to say is the feeling that's incoenincoent ou the country is i was on a trip with some high school students

and a said i had an interesting conversation with junior high school students and one said when i said china to you what does it evoke and one young woman said it feels like they have more will than we do. and so what we argue in the book is the obsession with china and governor ed rendel criticizing the nfl for cancelling the eagles viking football game in december and saide're wusses if we were china they'd walk in the snow and do mathmatical calculations along the way. it's what we once had. the ability to act collectively and the things we talked band the things we need do what we alhave i common is they all require collective will and action. we can't do this with one tied behind our back.

>> charlie: but what's happening and the comparison with escalators in bethesda, maryland is you saw somebody to say this is the way it is. have you to worry about a sense of saying well, that's the way things are and you thefore have to accept a new norm which is -- >> charlie -- we do not think we have to or should accept a new norm. we don't have to define america do. it's going get us and take us some time to dig out of this holeut we can do it and we say it in the book we're optimist though frustrated optimist and people say how can you be of the mysticnd one is our past and challenges. we've met challenges bigger than this one and one reason is they're incremental and in visible and one reason for wrighting the book is to alert people we have the challenges

and in the past we've had the parts of formula for success which upgraded has served us well. >> charlie: is that another word for american acceptionism. >> we say america has been exceptional and can be again but it's not entitlement. it has to be earned and we can earn it. we say that if you want to be optimistic stand on your head because when you look at the country away from washington it's remarkable. we are in many ways the people we were before, full of energy and ideas and full of creativity and full initiative and we give examples of those people but the energy is there and it just has to b harness and that's among other things a political problem. >> charlie: why isn't the president successful in create

being the narrative, the pep talk and having it resonate in a way people will ree realize the have to back to where they were to get back to what they re. >> obama was for grand bargaining we never quite got e details. failure of leadership. >> exactly. >> in his heart he knows what needs to be done and in his head but there's way too much poll reading as far as i'm concerned. >> charlie: you're one of columnists he reads and seeks your opinion. what happens in these convertions? >> in my column and in the few opportunities i've had to talk and convey these things personally i think what you what i take away from things the president said in plic is that he feels we don't appreciate the opposition he's had. i've giving his point of view that he's had a foe that's been

basically out to obstruct everything he's done. >> charlie: that's not new in american politics. >> i would say the same. look, i was talking to our friend doug simon and the president giving a speech and he made a good point he said for this speech to be successful he sa obama needs to get out there and make it clear to people, i'm offering you, i'm asking of you something so big i can't finish the job. not in two years, not in six years. that's how big this is that i'm calling. and that's what we're calling for in the book and what i've been calling for in the country. something so big because folks, if we just stay here with this incremental approach we'll keep slip sliding -- >> charlie: this is a wake-up call. >> and pep talk. >> charlie: what should the president say in the sech he'll ke? >> i hope he says we have to begin with the question what world are we living in?

we're living in a world with four major challenges and have been drifting for 20 years. in ord to meet these challenges we'll have to sacrifice and it's going to take some time. the president and his republican opponents have to summon the better angels of our nature and the american record of rising to challenges. i do want to add one other thing, charlie, this is not a partisan book. we're tough on both democrats and republicans and one points we make. >> charlie: democrats were prepared to give everything away with pensions and -- >> it goes far beyond one budget deal. if there was arand bargain for $4 trillion we'll have to cut much more of that because of the cost of the babyboomer entitlement bill. if we wait around for one speech or one individual or one charasmatic pol politician we'le waiting for someone who doesn't show up and one reason

republicans and democrats behave the way they do and acting the way they do is because what has happened to the political system that gives them the incentives to avoid the which wil challeng. >> charlie: steve jobs had to resign from the job as ceo and all the comment that came in about him it was he did not rd polls. he did not do market testing. what he said is i'll make a better mouse trap and i know they'll like it. so i can't do a market test was they haven't seen what i'm going create. >> that's the perfect analogy, charlie and the kind of leadership we'ring fo we're hon looking for and i believe there's a market for that. >> charlie: but the other thing

though is have to have boldss ineadership and nd to have demand and -- >> you're right and the purpose of t book is to help generate the demand and hope people will take that from the book. >> charlie: and incorrective action and will there is power. >> there's enormous power. we've done this before. the book ends by us saying the history we need to read is our own and the country we need to rediscover is america. we've done this before and the reason we're optimist is because we call the chapter this, the country is still full of people who just didn't get thword. they didn't get the word they're down and out and go out and

invent stuff and start stuff and my favorite quote is from a marine who we interviewed about the surge in iraq and he said we were too dumb to quit but they're not being enabled, encouraged and inspired by the political system and we think we're at a critical time. if let this go and get in the hole and can't get out, you're kids won't just grow up in a different america but different world. i n't want to be thought of as having been on duty when the amican dream went dark. >> charlie: we left the country worse than it was when we came into it. >> exactly. what we argue i the four problems we talk about, deficit, energy and globalization are all unfolding incrementally just slowly enough. i was watching tv this morning

while the worse wild fires in texas. tragic ever on record. don't you think it has to do with global warming rick perry? it ds. but then the wild fires will go away and the energy prices go up and down and what's so dangero is it's not like world war ii or pearl harbor but all slow enough that people are deluding themselves and it gets to leadership. that the job of the leader to tell us where we e. when's the last time you heard a serious politician leader in country tell the truth so raw, so raw you want to get up out of your seat and say wow. when was the last time?

i can't remember. i have to really think. >> charlie: do you think there's a political leader of achieving this kind of resol whether it's a governor or state legislature that has the voice but not in politics >> no one comes immediately to mind but michael bloomberg's been one of the closest as mayor here. michael referred to shock therap it will come from the market or mother nature or the middle of america but we're going to get a shock because it keeps drifting. >> charlie: what will a shock look like? >> europe breaking up and pulling us down. >> charlie: so europe breaks up, arab the world breaks up. china is going through a transition and we're going through a transition.

all four pillers are going through it at the same time and more interconnected than ever and that's what's scary is china's leadership bargain is changes and the transformation will be with us another hundred years and china and europe's going througthe same thing so we're at a really unstable time and why doubly so we're saying to people this is when you need a strong america. we're unabashed patriots. we come from a school that says a strong america is good for the world. not that we don't make mistakes or perfect, we're so far from perfect but we're a hell of a lot better that be anybody else and i would prefer a world order boyd an imperfect america than another options on the table. >> charlie: i'm trying to remember, what was it you said, i'd like to be president of china for an hour. >> even a minute. >>harlie: because you can

order things and be done. >> you can get things done but i don't want to be president of china for a day. i don't want it be that. i want america to work with stick-to-itiveness that china does ordering autocraticly from the top down. we think with have the superior political system but we're getting 90% of our interior system and we're getting 10% of our superior system. everything out of washington is sub optimal. all our political system can produce is sub optimal solution. it has to add up. >> charlie: is there an obama foreign policy. >> he teaches foreign policy but is there one and can there be?

are all the problems so ad hoc and each one one off and our resources increasingly limited that it's hard to speak about some containment that is so clearly defined reign policy. i think all in all i would give obama a fairly good grade. a high grade for foreign policy for managing the draw back in iraq and in afghanistan i don't agree with. >> charlie: but what he's laid out. >> how he dealt with libya and how he's dealt in getting bin laden and pursuing terrorism nat way that's sustainable. i don't think the country's been ill served by his leadership on foreign follo policy. >> charlie: and with russia. >> as long as they have a lot of oil putin will be extremely

puculant and we managed it with ina and russia. right now you don't sit here and say there's some burning obama foreign policy failure out there at all. >> charlie: finally this, let the tee this up right here. [laughter] >> charlie: does the book have is a happy ending. >> when itas a happy ending depends on us. it can have a happy ending if we recover and renew our formula for success. if we go back to the values that made us great. if we act together to meet the challenges of the day as we have so often in the past. if we learn from our history than we can master the challenges and can continue to be exceptional. if we remember what it wasike to be us, if we remember what

used to be us than we can be us again. >> charlie: is there something that happened that things come from the bottom up and the american revolution came from the bottom up. >> i think you'll see it, charlie. i've written about americanelect the third party movement starting and there's a level of hierarchy except one, american politics and the think the country's in a revolutionary mood and i hope he's honest th more raw he is about where we ar i think the more people will respond but the more he dances between the rain drops i think the more he's going to suffer and think the country's going suffer. >> charlie: mike friedman and

michael mandelbaum. great to see you. september 11, 2001 is perhaps the most doc documted day inhum history aon that day photographers recorded the events surrounding the events around the world trade centers they unfolded. david friend has collected stories in his book "watching the world change." it's been upded with a new preface and i'm pleased to have him back the our table. welcome. >> thank you so much. >> charlie: so what happened. tell me how you look back and see the last ten years from that day. >> i look at it as from a phographic perspective because so much of my history has been in photography and urnalism. so what hapned in those ten

years? on 9/11 we did not have twitter. we did not have facebook we didn't have youtube. we didn't have cell phonesith cames in them. >> charlie: smart phones. >> about what would that have been. we're now a social media world where things can be seen immediately and what happened on 9/11 was the result of three things that happened the ten years before. 24-7 çnv news gathering and the new thing called the internet and you had digital photography which came into its own. so by the time 9/11 happened we could all be watching the same thing as the same time. in the ten years since, we're expecting to see these images constantly and it's turned on its head. >> you said the ten years have brought clarit clarity hyperbol.

>> we all said the world's changed. the world's changed but now we really see beyond photography, beyond the loss of life, beyond what people were saying was a clash of civilizations. is this the end? people would weigh in o either side, what we have really is a change in the way america is perceived. i think both john kerry and barack obama ran on the platform they were going bring america back and it's prestige and the world back by how it was lost in the aftermath of 9/11. >> charlie: in terms of the iraq war. >> yes. >> charlie: not reacted but -- >> so i think a lot of our reaction to islam and civil liberties have changed aer

9/11 but as americans have come back and you see the building going down and people with this respect especially with the arab spring over the last year you've seen the respect people have towards this new social media that was created that allowed and the new sense of democracy you would have never of thought from tripoli to tunisia. >> charlie: there is memory and grief that remains. it doesn't go away and it seems to be as strong as it was from the moment it happened. >> i can't pass looking at the lower skyline and not feel anger i still go through the range of emotions. i thina lot of new yorkers do and americans do and then range and sorrow and i think we still through that. time heals. ti does heal and that's one of

the things in photography we look at pictured and in the photographs we see and it helps us commemorate and helps us move on and that's one of the healing powers. >> charlie: historians also write about missed opportunities. it was a moment in which leaders had an opportunity to say this for all of the pain and suffering and tragedyas brought us together. we can build on that togetherness. the french and others said, limon had a line saying we're all americans. we squandered it. >> the three months afterwards people were -- all of humanity seemed to be about new york and everyone in new york was opening doors for everyone else and caring for eachother . wh why? we were all attacked.

we cared for one another and just a sense of thatooperation had to be able to continue you ill feel it' bit in the city but the way it was then it was a missed opportunity and a squandered one. >> charlie: you have a new preface called watching the world change the stories behind the images of 9/11. we'll show you some of the images you'll see and just talk a moment abo a number of them. one the american flight approaching the north tower. >> this is a little known picture by sequence by wolfgang staal living in america who set up a camera in brooklyn and dog an art project every four seconds was an automatic picture taken transmitted over the internet to a mural and he didn't realize it was set up

september 9th. everything was real time is what he was trying to record when in fact this is like when it was overtaken by history and he plane comes in and one of three people i know who took pictures of the very first plane going in. >> charlie: and in the images you see the twin towers standing and then you see the first tower in flames. the next one is wre a photographer leaned out the window. >> this is rob howard. he was taking pictures with a 6 by 7 camera sort of a commercial shoot and saw itut the window d leaned out d as he did the second plane came in. you look at it and you get a sense of everything from fritzlein to like an artitectural shoot unfortunately

and so much death and destruction. >> charlie: anthe other is citizens plea for their lives as the tow falls and fills the streets with dust. >> this is one of those moments everyone would see and the fact there are many photographers i interviewed where at the moment the towers fell took four frames and themselves turned around and ran because they too were overcome by the debris. >> charlie: this is the first responders of who carried the body of the fire department's chaplain. >> he was the first identified deceased and you look at this and there's two firemen and a police officer and the other fellas from port authority. you have this sort of sense of an urban pieta. >> the next one is sherman

stapleton. >> charlie: isabella dosier. >> she is an architect but amateur pilot and asked a friend after the first towers were hit, will you take a picture of me and she's eight months pregnant. you can see in her expression, she doesn't know what's going on. she thought maybe a small plane was hit and named the child amelia after amelia earhart. you talked about pictures in memory and so much com commemoration. >> this is where george bush was

informed the second tower was hit and said mr.president, we're under attack and you see the presidency change in one imagine. >> charlie: america changed. the next one is this is the president. >> president with bob beckwith. he was a retired fir department chief. >> charlie: and i think there's a picture in one of today's papers. >> think time magazine did a follow-up where the two are together and this is one of those moments i think was a misused moment. moment that brought us all togeth what a felt was then suddenly four years later at the convention this picture was used quite often sort of fund-raising and to gather around when presidenbush was running and somewhat i felt

misused. >> charlie: the next is -- >> there is a picture richard drew did. it looks like did he leap? was he pushed by the fire or the force of the fire and this is a piece -- this is a picture that really shows how a still imagine can stop us and have us look and ask questions where as it's unbearable to look at it there way but imagine seeing it in video. >> charlie: but the next is taking the picture in 9/11 decided not to plish this. >> this was first published in the united states in this book in 2006 and since then has been caed one of key agines of the 9/11. thomas hopker took it and then there was a column five years go saying here people look relaxed. ey're not.

on of the peoe in there's grandmother actually was one of the designers of the world trade towers and they were talking seriously about it and they took offense and there was back and forth on the internet what was happening and we bring our own associations to photographs. like music. we can attach whatever we want and that's one of the great powers of photography we can connect with this and it looks so modern and the colors and the style and yet this horrific thing in the distance. that's what i think caused the controversy and tomas decided not to public it for years. >> charlie: and the front page of the new york times the next day. >> i talked to john loengard andon said it speaks well of the po

picture you see it standing pretty much untouched as much of e city was physically but here's the towers from today th were touched and you get the nse of death in this picture and yet you sense that new york will move on and that's what happened. >> charlie: and the fbi released the head shots of the 19 suspected. >> so much of what we in the aftermath was relat to photographer. we tracked people down throu interpol and used the imagines to understand who was attacking us literally and how they connected with al-qaida. we used pictures to then go into afghanistan and target people and still using imagines on drones. photography was a seatbed of how we understand the vessel for caring that day. >> charlie: the next is fire still burn in the recesses of the ruins.

>> this is a horrific sense of the aftermath almost looks like a scene from a film. this is one of the few pictures that day, perhaps the only picture that showed a sense of hope, a sense of resilience, a sense that america was because of the echos to the joe rose rosethal's picture gave us a sense going forward. >> charlie: they speak to what power of phography? >> we are able to transmit for ten generations we'll be able to have people understand a certain baseline of fact though we're in the age of photo sp and in the age where we doubt what we s, the's some kernel of truth in

photography and you have so many people saying what really happened on 9/11. was there a conspiracy. we have ten of thousands of pictures and hours of film. we were attacked that day by these people and we'll have historical record because so many people were out with cameras and ten years later with social media. >> charlie: the book is called watching the world change: the stories behind the images of 9/11 and leave you tonight with a few more images. thank you for joining us. see you tomorrow night.

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