>> rose: welcome to our program. tonight a conversation with governor mitt romney about running for president. do you ask yourself are we missing something or we haven't been able to break through that point? >> let's look at tha last campaign. did anyone break above 25%? no, john mccain was at that level, fred thompson, rudy giuliani and myself were all battling; there was no one that got up to 40% or 50%. we have right now seven or eight very qualified people who are running for president, any one of which would do better than president obama. that notion tt some people are doing too well is not a notion that is an american notion. america has always welcomed and heralded success. did thomas edison make too much? did henry ford make too much? did steve jobs make too much? does bill gates make too much? no, these people who did not make the nation poorer by them ving done well. they made the nation richer.

they made the middle-class better off. the course... if your course in life is to say "how do i keep those top people are from doing so well?" you'll find a nation that's poor. the right course is to say "how can i get more people to do well? how can i encourage more risk takers?" that's the answer. >> rose: we end th appreciation of vaclav havel, former president of check reap, dissident playwright who died yesterday at his vacation home in the north of the czech republic. >> ( translated ): the world of today is a multipolar and multicultural world. and it's necessary to respect different identities. to have understanding and be tolerant. but at the same time, one should

know precisely the specifics and (inaudible) and it seems to me that the united states cannot lie its way out of its obligations to be a certain barrier to evil. >> rose: governor and the late vaclav havel when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> rose: governor mitt romney is here. he is a leading contender for the 2012 republican presidential nomination. in a race characterized by the unexpected, his candidacy has remained stea, but the former massachusetts governor faces a stiff challenge from the rise of newt gingrich, the former speake primary voting begins in 15 days with the iowa caucus. the candidates are making their closing arguments about why they deserve to face president obama next november. i'm pleased to have governor mitt romney at this table. welcome. >> thank you, charlie, good to be with you. >> rose: i want to sort of begin by saying that i know that the issues are important and policies important and experience is important but i also know that we can read about those things and you have been been at all these debates talking about pocy a lot and a good political reporter said to me that he rarely asks questions of candidates like you in which you had aeady answered them or in fact, expected to be asked of them. now, we'll do a little bit of that with north korea at the back end of this because it's on

the cutting edge of the news story day. but i know he also said to me that he came to the back of the plane and a lot of reporters felt like they'd seen some sense of the humanity of the person. tell me how you see this ia of having america and reporters understand who you are as part of this process of wanting to be the president? >> you know, i think without question the reporters that not low my a campaign get to see who you are and should. i think the american people with time get to see who you are in the early stages it's very hard to know what a candate's personal beliefs and personal life has been about. in part because they see us only in these 60-second answers being provided in debates. but as time goes on and you do town meetingsand meet with everyd people on everyday issues, you begin to flesh out more about who the person is and that's something which ihink is a posite part of the process. some in the media abuse that

insight. so far not with me. but i know there's some people who are frightened of that kind of openness with the media for fear it will be storted in some way. but you know, i think you've got no choice but to open yourself up and take a good look. >> rose: do you think there are misconceptionsbout you? >> sure. there have to be at this early stage as the campaign goes on, particularly if i were to become the nominee. i'll be examined one way and the other and the result of that is people will have a good idea of who i am. >> rose: you come from a family where your father was a governor and your father wanted to be president. how long have you wanted to be president? >> it's been a very short period of time, actually. i never imagined i was going to get involved in politics. i my dad had advice that i happened to agree with. he said "don't get involved in politics if you have to win elections to pay your mortgage." and number two, "don't get involved in politics if your kids are still young." he felt that kids would have their heads turned by a political career. he didn't run for office until

he was 54 years old, the first time. i never imagined i would be independently able financially to get involved in politics. i started off at the bottom of a consulting firm. but by virtue of a number of things that developed in a very positive way i found myself able to follow his rules and try and make a difference. >> rose: so as soon as you were financially able you began to think "politics is a place where i can..." do what? >> well, i was very concerned about my own state. i took a foray in 1994 by running against ted ken day. i happen to think that the policies ted kennedy and liberal democrats had pursued had created permanent poverty underclass in america. i thought the welfare mentality of the 1960s had been terribly destructive to america and i wanted to run. in this that case i was pretty sure i wouldn't be able to win. i knew i'd give him a run for his money. i hoped i might be able to win. there were a couple weeks when it looked like i might get there. he ended up winning.

and by the way he had to take a mortgage out on his house to keep my fr winning. >> rose: he needed the money at the end. you were up by ten points at some point. >> i don't think i was that high. i may have led by one or two at some point or maybe a little more. but when he very aggressively came on he was able to hold on to that seat. >> rose: but tell me more about your dad. it's clear, you see these pictures of the two of you together and they suggest this is a special father/son relationship with huge impact on you. >> no question. my parents had an enormous impact on my life. i presume that's so with many, many people. i respected both of them a great deal. both ran for political office. my mom for u.s. senate, my dad for governor, and then president. my dad was unusual in that efs born poor, didn't get a college degreend yet believed in america to such an extent that he didn't think that those starting disadvantages would keep him from accompliin his

dreams. he loved america, was concerned th america was taking a pathway that would make us less able to defend our freedom and i share his views. and in many respects-- not all the issues-- but my fundamental philosophy, which is a deep and abiding faith in the goodness of america and the need to keep america strong from a values standpoint, from an economic standpoint and from a military standpoint is consistent with his views. >> rose: you mentioned the poverty underclass in the first race with senator kennedy. where do you think america is with respect to these basic economic queions of the division between rich and poor and a shrinking middle-class? >> oh, i think this is a time to be bold and the boldness is not trying to change america into some new economic model never before tested or into a model that's been tested and proven false and ineffective. the old socialist model obviously hasn't worked anywhere in the world. the european model isn't working in europe. the only model that's ever

worked is the american model of free enterprise where we open for people the ability to achieve whatever they might hope to accomplish in their life and by virtue of this idea of free enterprise and opportunity, a merritt-bad society, we find dividuals who invent and who create and help lift the entire economy and lift all people. but the idea this president has of saying government should step in and take from some to give to the others and thereby create economic justice, that will kill this country. that will kill our economy. that will make us prone to poverty. >> rose:ut we've had a progressive income tax for a while here and that is taking from some and giving to oers as you know. >> there is a progressivety and a recognition that those at the high end of the income scale will owe more than those at the very bottom, of course. and we will have a safety net in this country. i'm not suggesting we... that the very wealthy get special breaks and get a better deal than anybody else. but i do believe that when you have a government begin to tell companies these are the ones we

want to succeed, we're going to give money to these companies and you can't go here unless you're a union company. >> rose: this would be the boeing ce. >> the boeing case. you're watching the president bow to the financial interests in his party-- whether it's the extreme environmentalists or the union movement or whether it's the public sector unions-- the president has taken a course of suggesting that he and washington know better than free people choosing their ow paths in life. and that happens to have failed everywhere it's been tried. >> rose: yet in 2008 he overwhelmingly got the support of the american people to be president. what do youhink happened? >> one, he had no experience in leadership and he has failed as a leader. but number two he didn't understand how the economy works and didn't recognize that what he was doing th his crafting of a stimulus plan and his regulatory regime that he was killing the economy and finally he spoke of hope and change and i think we've projected on his

word change that he was going to bring america together. he spoke about that. working on a bipartisan basis. unifying the country. he's been the most divisive president i've ever seen. >> rose: the most divisive president you've ever seen? >> he has attacked one american after another. one group after another. he creates these straw men and says that republicans believe this terrible thing and aren't they awful. he went after insurance compa executives, wall street. all these bad people he finds out there. look, americans are not going to be apowerful and vibrant economic engine with a powerful middle-class if we attack one another. his oginal words of creating hope and oortunity and bringing us together, that's the right approach. he just hasn't followed it. >> rose: which brings us to washington today and one issue which is the deadlock between the house and the senate. and ere is in many people's judgment a paralysis and a dysfunctionality that has prevented the country to do the kinds of things that have made

it wha it is and has made it not only a competitive country but a leade in the world today. and that we may be losing that. anhow are you going toe different if y have the same intentions that he had to be able to bring people together? >> well, it requires leadership. in order for a body of 535 men and women to work in a way that's collaborative and achieves certain goals there has to be a leader that describes those goals, communicatess them to the american people, looks for, if you will, coalitions of people who share values and share common ground. that's what a leader does. instead of turning to the opposition party and attacking the party on... >> rose: what would you do if you were in the white house today? would you keep them there throughout the holidays and say "unless you can come to an agreement nobody's going me"? that's adership. >> well, leadership... iedhat good occasion, as you know, and in some respects a difficult one

in being elect governor in a state with a legislature that was 85% democrat. and over the months and years of our work together i found a way to build personal respect and rapport with the democratic leaders and hopefully they with mend so when we face crises we were able to have enough respect for one another tovercome them together. what's happened with this administration is that washington's become so divided and so bitter and, in my view, in large measure because the president dismissed the republicans in the first two years thinking he didn't need any republican votes-- d he didn't-- so he got his own way. knew that way has failed, he comes back and tries to blame the republicans and that has led to a setting where... >> rose: but now the republicans are saying even though there was overwhelming vote in the senate in which senator mcconnell was with the majority, coming to the house and the house saying "no, we're not going to do that because even if it means there is no vote on this." >> well, again, if a leader has established personal

relationships and rapport with people in both sides of the aisle, he brings them together in a quiet room without the media there and says "all right, look, what do you need? what are your concerns? what are your principles? is there some common ground here? can we achieve common ground here?" and that has not happened. look, i recognize washington is a tough place to get things done. but it requires an experienced leader who's willing not just to cast blame and point at the other pty but actually to have numerous meetings in other people's offices and to look for ways to find common ground. >> re: would you bthere keeping them there until they did something? >> any time there was a matter of great significance to the nation... >> rose: is this of great significance to the nation? >> you're referring to the payroll tax extension? >> rose:ure. the payroll tax extension i something i support. i don't want to raise taxes on anyone. but it's not something that's going to change the nature of america's econom it's a band-aid. it's an important band-aid for those who need extra funds right now. theiddle-class is really

suffering. bua fundamental restructuring of this economy to encourage job creation again is not going t occur by virtue of the payroll tax extension. >> rose: when you look at this great division that people talked about, whether it's 99% and 1%, i income equality, whether it's defined as n some sense as an a economy that's become unfair, what priority does that for you? how would you address that? >> my priority is not to say how can we take from some to give to others so we're more equal. that's what happens in entitlement societies. >> rose: but isn't that a simplistic understanding of saying "they want to take from some and give to the others"? >> i'm saying that's not the course i would take. and what i would say is that the right cose for america is to allow our entrepreneurs and innovators and businesses lge and small to say let's invest in america again. and if they invest in america and america grows, that's good for the middle-class. my objective... the rich are doing just fine.

i'm not out to try and say how do we help the rich. the poor have a safety net and we need to make sure the safety net is strong and has no holes in it. the real objective of anyone running for president in this cle has to be to help the middle-class. >> rose: but many in the middle-class don't feel this society is fair. the president addressed that in kansas city. >> oh, look, he... and fair by saying some people are making too much. that notion that some people are doing too well is not a notion that is an american tion. america has always welcomed and heralded success. did thomas edison make too much? did henry ford make too much? did steve jobs make too much? does bill gates make too much? no, these are people who did not make the nation poorer by them having done well. they made the nation richer. they made the middle-class better off. the course... if your course in life is to say "how do i keep those top people from doing so well?" you'll find a nation that's poor. if the right course is to say how can i get more people do well, how can i encourage more

risk takers? that's the answer. >> rose: how do you come to this... square this idea that we have to create jobs and we have to invest in the future and we have to invest in research, we have to invest in education all of which is anotr definition of spding wisely. and >> and the best place to spend wisely is not to have the government do e spending but to have people and their enterprises do the spending. when j.f.k. was president, the government in total-- federal, state, and local-- consumed 27% of the total economy. 27% of the g.d.p. now they're upto 37% of the g.d.p. and the democrat response is "give us more. let us tax more." look, at 37%, we're inches away from no longer bei a free economy. the right course is not for the federal government to decide we're going to invest in various car companies. i'm talking about the electric car companies or solar energy like solyndra, the right course

is to say let the private sector do that. the american model of free enterprise and free individuals, risk takers, that's the model-- the only model that's worked in the world to free people from poverty. the idea of saying no, instead we're going to try to regulate, overregular, overtax and take from... overregulate and tax and take from some to lift up the middle, there's just not... an old great line by margaret thatcher. the problem with socialism is sooner or later you run out of people's money. >> rose: is that what you think is going on in senator john rry socialism? >> i think there is in america an intent on the part of the president and his colleagues to make us more like europe. to... >> rose: more of a social democracy. >> well, yes, with a very dramatic expansion of the reach and the scale of government. and that is not working in europe. it will certainly not work here. >> rose: let me talk about influences on you. we know about your father. but your mother. what influence did chef and would yo... what did your church have to do with being a

missionary? >> my mom d a big influence in my life. i got the chance to work on her campaign for senate. she was running against an american institution, phillip hart, a wonderful man. she was unsuccessful in her bid but i learned from that exrience, watched her campaign hard. and knew that she was a person who, like my dad, has deep and abiding affection for this country and its principles. that's what i learned from my parents was how committed they were to the vision of the founding fathers of this country. providing for us not just political freedom but personal freedom. the right to choose our course in life. the right to achieve whatever our dreams might lead us to regaless of the circumstances of our birth. now you mentioned my faith and my church experience. i was asked to go off and search my church as a missionary. i spent two and a halfears in france. that was a very revealing experience. charles de gaulle kicked the united states out, kicked our

bases out of france. >> rose: left nato. >> left nato. there was a... knock on doors, people would say "e you america?" i'd say "yes." they'd say "get out of vietnam." it was a humbling and reorienting for someone like me who lived pretty darn well in america and from my experience the first two years i was out in a lower middle-class... >> rose: would it be better if there was a stronger connection between young people who are going to serve eir country or their church before they go to college? >> i think it's a maelous thing for young people to have anpportunity to serve and to step outside of the circle that they kw well. whether that by serving in the peace corps or americorps or in the military. nothing compares to the military from that standpoint. the military is... really is a mortar vesselous experience for young people. and there are a number of ways people can serve. they can serve voluntarily in their communities.

some offer experiences unlike anything else. >> rose: but don't you think the military has borne an extraordinary burden over the last several years because of iraq and because of afghanistan and because of the number of tours they've had to serve. >> oh, yeah. that's one of the reason why i'd like to add about 100,000 active duty personnel to our military. i think the burden borne by our national guard and active duty personnel is way out of line with what ople had expected when they signed up for that duty. but look how remarkably they've served and with so few complaints. it's just... it's an amazing thing. >> rose: tell me about heroes. either in e church or in public life or business. who are those people that you have read about or known that have made the a difference in your life? >> well, m parents are probably the most significant heroes because of the proximity to their life and my ow but alsomy dad was a... just a remarkable personal history. i mean, he was born in mexico at age five or six came back to the u.s., his parents were u.s.

citizens, came back to the u.s., his dad went broke more than once. my dad never graduated fm college. i mean... and then he became head of a car company. >> rose: american motors. >> made ramblers. ultimately became a governor of a state. and so, you know, i watched him it was just a tom non. the real deal. >> rose: was there something about wanting to pick up the standard that he had establishd? saying that following his advice you know, don't ever have... if you're going to pay a mortgage, don't depend on politics to pay it. but having made money to follow up and pick up the standard that your dad has left. the anything to that connection? i mean, you are who you are. >> yeah, i don't think i felt a ne to pick up his standard so much as a recognition of a sense of appreciation and duty to our country. and so when i found myself in a position where i was able to serve it was a sense of obligation to that motivated me

to get involved. had i not seen my dad run for political office it would have never crossed my mind. most people look at me and say "are you out of your mind? you have aize in business, why would you go off and run the olympics?" that was the first step... >> rose: and did you find more satisfaction there than you did in the private sector where you could make a difference d where there was an expectation of serving a lot of people? >> they are both places where you make a difference. i think there's a sense that somehow if you're in business you're just in it for yourself. being in business is good for america. successful business people building enterprises is what will help the middle-class have a better future. >> rose: you don't think the president understands that. but he clearly does, doesn't he? >> there's some comments made by him and his administration that suggest that they think there's a difference this contribution. if youe in public service or what they call helping professions. look, people are in business and

are wking hard to build an enterprise may be the by-product. they probably get in the enterprise for themselves and for the returns they think they'll generate for themselves. but the of peopleoing that-- as adam smith pointed out-- is liftineverybody. so for me my political rvice came as a result of... or at least my eyes were open the that by virtue of watching my parents take that path later in their life. >> rose: but you sometimes destroyed jobs. >> i'm sure the administration will use every weapon they can think of, some will be accurate, somenaccurate. if they attack the free enterprise system and citalist system they'll fd themselves on the short end of that argument. i'm proud of the fact that when i was with bane capital every investment we made was designed to grow the interprize and make it more successful. in some cases businesses were in such trouble... i remember one business. i think it lost $72 million

before we made the acquisition. you have to pear it back in order to save it and rebuild it. but in every case that i was involved in and we invested in some hundred different businesses we tried to make them grow and become more become more successful. >> rose: i want to talk about north korea for a second and bring it back to something you have spoken to before. give us the sense of what you think is required of presidential leadership at this moment with respect to the death of the north korean leader. >> well, we should be on the phone with, if you will, our trading partners in china and make sure they understand what our mutual interests ar >> rose: because they have the closest relationship to north korea and a long border. >> that's right. and two-thirds of north korea's trade goes between china and north korea. so china needs to communicate to north korea the new leader, kim jo-un, hi son, this is what

is important to us in china we can obviously communicate that as well and show that we are filled with resolve. that we will encourage a movement towards more... towards dernity, toward openness and they are that we are committed to keeping nuclear technology from being sent by north korea around the world. >> rose: but at the same time, you have said your first day in office you will accuse the chinese of currency manipulation that may lead to some kind of trade war and may have a negative impact on relations. but this is a perfect example where the united states and china ought to be on the same page. >> rose: well, let's say you found over the years your bank had been charging you an extra, i don't know, $10 a month in fees that weren't applicable. and they kept doing it and doing it and doing it and you can say well, look, i need my banking relationship, i'm goi to need them to keep doing this. >> rose: you would go to tm and try to solve it. but solving it is not to go in

and say "unless you change than i'm going to another bank and we'll have no relationship" if you need that bank at another final time. >> exactly. so the relationship with china has been such that over the years they have without question manipulated their currency to hold dn the prices of their goods. they have stolen intellectual property massively. they have hacked into our computers and stolen designs and technology and that can't be allowed to continue. i happen to believe that we establish a better relationship with china if they see as us people who are intelligent, who stands up for our rights. >> rose: don't they see us that way already? >> i think they haveo be chuckling and looking at us saying "can you believe these silly americans allowing china to get away with it?" there's no question that they have wiped out industries in this country by virtue of that practice. we have to say th can't continue. at the same time china needs access to america's market. we're enormous trading partners, we want access to their market.

they sell us this much stuff, we sell them that much stuff. they don't want that to go away. >> rose: this relationship is a very important relationship. >> critical. >> rose: the most important bilateral relationship we've probably had. >> a massively important bilateral lationship. >> rose: what the exception of israel. >> it's massively important and it's one that we'll maintain. but i'm not going to say gosh because it's so important i'll let them do whatever they want. no, we'll stand up for the things we believe in and where we have common interestss w do... we hopefully with do with regards to north korea. we don't want north korea selling nuclear technology around the world. we don'twant north korean's people suffering from starvation and other deprivation. china doesn't want the people from north korea rushing into china as refugees. there are a number of things that. where we can find common ground. >> rose: when you see the "time" magazine cover having to do with change in policy orhy don't they like him. what is it you think is at issue there? is it cause, as david brooks

said, they're looking for brave heart and you're giving them organization man? >> well, i can only tell you what i believe and the nice thing i was afforded after my loss in the last election was a chance to write a book. >> rose: i have it right here. >> and i wrote the book. i... >> rose: "no apology, belie in america." >> and that gave me a chance to lay out what i believe. i actually think america is at a very critical point. i think if we stay on the path we're on there's a very high risk we become greece or italy sometime in the next president's term. >> rose: that has to do with our relationship of death to g.d.p.. >> and the inability of this president to deal with the massive overhang of our entitlements and the massive deficits being built. i think that's an extraordinary risk. number two, we're on a path where america's ability to compe and create jobs is declining. i think this president has put us on a road to decline and i'm

very concerned about the future of america. i'm convinced, however, that the future is bright. i believe we are the shining city on a hill. but the light is dimming. my vision is straightforward. i will keep america strong in our values, in our economy, and in our military. and some people find that not as complete or not as inspiring as they'd like but, look, i believe in america. are right for us and other people around the world. >> rose: why do you think, though, that you have not been able to-- this has to do with polls-- rise above a certain level. >> i understand the narrative that goes on but being at the top of the pack, either number one or two for entire year, i'm the only guy that's been able to do that, a lot of people have come and gone from up and down, up and down. the fact that i've had real strong support, either number one or two all year long. >> rose: but you've been at a ceiling you have not been able to break through and do you ask

yourself-- because you've asked yourself important questions between last race and this race that helped you run a better campaign-- do you ask yourself are we missing manager that we haven't been able to break through that point? >> let's look at the last campaign. did anyone break above 25% until the caucuses and primaries? no. john mccain was right at that level. fred thompson, giuliani myself were all battling. no one got up to 40%, 50%. we have seven or eight very qualified people who are running for president and any one of which would do better than president obama. >> rose: and any one of which you could support. >> any one i could support. >> rose: you could suppo speaker gingrich. >> each would do better thanhe current president. so... and each of them gets a certain share of people who thinks they're the best person. what will happen? we'll narrow down to two and three and then we'll get behind one and that person will end up with the support of the republican party. just like in prior years. i don't recall a setting where one person is at 50% or 60%. that doesn't happen...

>> rose: so you don't think you have anything to prove to the primary voters about your ae then thysty or your ability to connect. >> my great experience is having been a governor people can take a look at what i've done as governor, having writt a book they can see what i believe in my heart and then i ran before. my... the policies that i describe when i ran before are the policies that i'm running in the day. >> rose: what did you learn then about the race last time and wh has changed about the way you run this time? >> i think one of the keys is that i found myself having to discuss a whole wide range of issues and i buried myself in all those different issues but never broke out with a very clear and compellingmesse and in this race it's incumbent upon me to make sure people understand that i believe in america. i believe in the american principles that made us what we are. i will get good jobs for americans. this is the message i have to hone in and deliver day in and day out or i w't be known for

something. >> rose: okay. but you obviously have thought about this. this notion of flip-flop and authenticity which goes to the heart off understanding the character and values of somebody. does it not? >> of course it does. and i understand... >> rose: and that's the argument they make. >> i have a friend who said to me every candidate has a "bu" i said what do you mean? "well, so and so's great but." >> rose: so what's the romney "but"? >> well, that's what they do. >> rose: he's not authentic on a human level, he's not real. >> so you try those things and they're real until you win and then they say "he was brilliant, he did this correctly." and if you attend, for instance, the town meetings or go to the restaurants where i go in and do events and shake hands with people, i'd be interested in seeing wheer you've... you find people say that guy connects pretty darn well or does not. but my experience is they'd say "hey, th guy connects pretty darn well with people." >> rose: a political reporter told me on the plane this past weekend that you came back and

it was a more human person than they had seen. does that register with you? >> this is the first time we chartered an airplane together. this is the first time we were together with the media on the airplane so of course on the very first visit i went back and chatted with the media. >> rose: but they said it was very personal, it was about your father. >> yeah, sure. >> rose: it was aboutriends and family. >> that's as i go to my town meetings we've had a lot of these across the country, mostly iowa, new hampshire, the people who come away from those things say the same thing. but i understand in the political process there's a narrative that gets spun and that narrative tends to be in place until people say wow. it's not accurate. and connecting with people is something which i think is a part of me in this narrative. >> rose: some say a required quality of leadership today is to be able to speak to the people in a way that you are believable and real. >> and the evidence i can point to about my ability to be a leader is that i've been a leader. unlike our current president who'd never been a leader until

he became president. i helped turn around a very substantial consulting firm as a leader. i started a business as its leader. i went to the olympics and helped lead an organization there and helped bring a community around to support the olpics. i helped lead a state. in those settings to be an effective leader i had to have been able to engender the trust and support of the people i was working with. and incidentally, the great many of people who i was worng with continued to say good things about my leadership. that is a... that is an indication that e quality you describe is a quality that hopefully i have and that i will improve upon with time. >> rose: how many old friends are part of this campaign? >> lots and lots. (laughs) the people of... >> rose: all you can round up. >> all i can round up. there's folks who have been with mend we've been friends and colleagues for years and years. this team that i work with are people that i've known. i'm proud of the fact that en

though i have had todo tough things to get organizations back on track that people... even those in some cases who i had to part ways with, they respect me as a leader and in many cases support me. >> rose: the one issue that some people that i know who know you believe that you have made a decision which is they think a politically expedient one rather than one they expected from you is obviously on immigration. they look at that and they say "the mitt romney i know is not prepared to send people back. that's not who he is. and the man who attacked governor perry from the get-go is not the mitt romney i know. he must have done that for political reasons." and "he must have done it with some full understanding that he might put at risk hispanic voters, too." >> well, they don't know me very well, then, becae nibble following the law and supporting the law. i'm also compassionate. but the idea... and this is the

same position i had, by the way, four years ago. my posture on illegal migration is almost to the word... i try and me it to the word exactly what i said four years ago and what i said was that those who've come here illegally should not be given a special pathway, a favored pathway to become permanent residents merely by virtue of having come here illegally. that they should b in line with... they should be given the opportunity to get in line with everybody else but they go to the back of the line and those waiting in line... >> rose: to go to the back of the line mns what for them? >> well, it means that they apply for a green card just like the other people who've applied for a green card. >> rose: and stay here while the application... >> and they... >> rose: and stay here while the application... >> i would have a temporary period where people are able to arrange their affairs but ultimately they will need to get in line by going home. >> rose: okay, so you are sending them back. saying "you'veot to go back, there is no amnesty." obviously in the republican

party that doesn't put you at one with the majority of voters according to polls. "but there's no amnesty, you have to go back." as you know, there's a very different view from the speaker who said "? f somebody's been here 25 years, we don't want to send them back, they have families, they have been in school." pele say "i can't believe that's the romney i know." >> i will give people a transition period of time for them to make preparations if someone's been here 25 years, obviously, that transition period of time is far more substantial than someone who's been here six months. and so people have a transition time. t i have to turn this around and ask the question in this ways which how about all the people who have waited in their home countries legally to come here? family members wanting them to come here? i want those people to come. i'd like to make the immigration process more transparent and easier for those that want to come here legally. and for that to happen we have to say we're not going to do anything that encourages people to come here illegally.

if we start talking about amnesty and saying to certain people who have been here a long time "if you can hide long enough you can get a green card" you just create another, if you will, magnet for illegal immigration. that's have an immigration system that work that brings people in that we desperately want and need legally. that's what america wants to see and those that are here illegally, they should be given the same privilege as those waiting in line, by getting back in line. >> rose: there is a remarkable grow... it's also true in turkey and brazil, this is called brick countries. you seem to argue thathe united stes under your leadership, even though our growth rate is at 2% to 3%, will not... it would be unacceptable for you for it not to maintain its leadership. >> rose: that's answer... >> that's absolutely right. >> rose: how do we do that if we're growing at 2% and countries like china are going to pass us inerms of their

economic growth in 10 to 15 years >> as you know, economic growth from a very low base. >> rose: the per capita... >> shows a higher growth rate. >> rose: but it's the new reality. and you can't deny that new reality. >> i don't deny that new reality. the world will have stronger economies around the world. that presents an enormous opportunity for a nation that leads the world in innovation. and a nation that believes in free trade and opening up marketfor american goods. trade is a good thing for a nation which is a high productivity and high innovation and so i look at this america has to be prepared-- like germany-- to say "we're going to lead the world, we're going to be the best in the world in the areas which we currently excel or new areas." but we have to be the place that says not how do we start leveling the playing field and having the government run things which is just a death nell to our capacity to lead the world

but how do we get america to be more american, if you will. more innovative. more pioneering. when the president says, for instance, i'moing to put a half billion dollar into my favorite solar energy company, solyndra, let's pretend it didn't go bankpt. let's pretend it was successful. here's what he doesn't understa. there are well over 10 different businesses i'll bet in this country trying to develop new solar technology. when he picks one that the government gets behind with $500 million the investments in all e others disappear because no one wants to compete with the government. he kills solar energy byaving the government play the role of venture capitalist. you either believe in free enterprise and freedom and the american system or believe in the european government dominated system and that system is a failed system. >> rose: with respect to creating jobs. everybody agree-- including you-- that a stimulus program that has created jobs would have been a good thing because of where we were. do you not? >> tla's the government helping to create jobs.

that's what the stimulus program was about and you have spoken to the idea of the need for infrastructure change. >> there's no question that government plays a role. you can't have a free economy without rules and regulations and when the economy is in trouble say we're going to give it a stimulus. i think every republican voted for a stimulus plan of some kind at the very beginning of the recession. but the stimulus wasto encourage the private sector to make investment and hire people. what the president did was w his stimulus was to protect the government. we haded 135,000 government jobs even as we were shedding millions of private sector jobs. so his stimuluswas protect government and government isn't what needed to grow. what we needed to do was to encourage the private sector in a time of uncertainty that it was a good time to invest in america. and what the president did was the one thing the private sector can't deal with. it can deal with bad news. it can't deal with uncertainty.

and the combination of dodd-frank and obamacare... >> rose: so you'd do away with dodd-frank immediately. >> there are parts... look, our financial services... >> rose: we need some regulations >> of course and some. >> rose: but you want to get on the plane knowing someby... >> of course. and financial services. there are things that have to be done. you have to tell some of these lending institution what is the capital requirements are for various classes of assets. >> rose: and they're rise rising the capital requirements and that's okay with you? >> category by category. >> rose: so that's a regulation that you're saying... >> of course you have to have regulation in a free society. but you need it modernized, updated, not burdensome and its objective is not only to protect us from the bad guys and the bad actors-- important as that is-- it's also to encourage the success of the good guys. you want them to be... you want them to be productive. you want our industries to lead the world. and unfortunately with a dodd-frank over 2,000 page bill new regulations and hundreds of thousands of pages to be written, it just

kills the economy. >> rose: i had a very ce interview yesterday with chris wallace. you talked emotionally a eloquently about your wife and illnesses that she'd had and how is was a family eort. your family had said "we don't want you to run." woulyou havesaid okay? >> absolutely. absolutely. the person who pushed me to run in this election was my wife. >> rose: why did she want you to run? >> she and i see the world in the same way. she loves this country as i do. she happens to have more faith in me and this perhaps i have in myself. she happens to think by virtue of my private sector experience, my work at the olympics, my governor experience that i have the skills that the country needs to turn away from the course president obama's put us on and to return us to the principles that make america such a powerful nation. and... at the begning she thought this guy might be okay and then we watched him and

became more and more concerned. he was making america a very different country. he said he was going to fundamentally transform america. that's what he's doing. i don't like it looks like and her view is "mitt, you've got to get in there, we've got to take america back." >> rose: and she's on the trail now. >> she se is. >> rose: you have been generous with your time and i thank you very much, governor romney, for sitting at this table to have a conversation about you and america so i thank you very much. >> rose: thank you, charlie. famous table. >> rose: vaclav havel, the czech dissident and playwright died yesterday. at age 75 it is said that his courage and also his words have brought down communism in europe. here's what the "new york times" said about anymore its obituary. "his moral authority and his moving use of the czech language cast him as a dominant figure during prague street demonstrations in 1989. as the chief behind-the-scenes negotiator who brought about the end of more than 40 years of communist rule and the peaceful

transfer of power known as the velvet revolution. a revolt so smooth it took weeks to complete without a single shot fired. they described him as a shy yet resilient, unfailingly polite but dogged man who articulate it had power of the powerless. mr. havel spent five yrs in and out of communist prisons, lived for two decades under close secret police surveillance and endured the suppression of his plays and essays. he served 14 years as president, wrote 19 plays, inspired a film and a rap song and remained one of his generation's most seductively non-conformist writers. vaclav hav was on this program twice and here is excerpts from those appearances. you saidn your address "i'm deeply convinced that the primeval foundations of the broad spectrum of cultures, spears of civilizatio and worlds of religi which we represent here contain certain base basic moral principles which are idtical to them all and which offer a key to human

co-existence on this earth of ours." what are those moral princles? >> ( translated ): indeed, sir, i find that when we both examine the deepest (inaudible) their moral codes and fundamental principles we find that a number of similarities among the different cultures and the world of religion. this includes, for example, respect for the family, respect for one's fellow humans respect for nature. (inaudible) a kind reception for a guest who comes with good intentions.

>> rose: is play writin a good training for politics? >> in a way it is because drama is based on a sense of conversational entitlement it's on a continuity of time and space and so play righting cultivating it and the i could see for myself how important this conversation (inaudible) can be so in this respect play righting might be preparation. >> rose: first, assess where you think the czech republic is and where you want it to be .

>> ( translated ): (inaudible) in a space of major transformation. a transformation that is entily new in history. (inaudible) never before in history had (inaudible) and then communism. it's a rather interesting condition (inaudible) boring (inaudible) it's with unprecedented change in the area of ownership (inaudible) down to

the smallest and that is the condition to privatize everything and this boss, a great lesson for many people (inaudible) where we have to (inaudible) >> rose: the united states, has it exercised its responsibility, power, opportunity well since the end of the cold war?

do you have suggestions as to how we may better carry out this unique responsibility because of our economic and political power >> ( translated ): i believe that it's entirely correct that america should feel it's the responsibility for the state of the world (inaudible) of much higher to build human lives (inaudible) also, the

(inaudible) that does not mean arrogance. the world of today is a multipolar and multicultural world, a pluralisti world and it's necessary to respect different predictions, different identities to have understanding and be tolerant back at the same time one should know precisely the cultural specifics and where evil and violence begin and it

seems to me that the ited stat cannot lie its way out of its obligations to be a certain barrier to evil. >> rose: even if it means invading the sovereignty of other nation's? >> ( translated ): because what is the highest value? a human being or a fake? a human being. a state is a human creation it's something that should serve for humanity and if the state does not (inaudible) humanity and

human dignity. it's necessary to counter that and in extreme cases even to intervene with that you believe not to allow a situation in which you use a force that will be necessary. >> rose: vaclav havel dead at age 75. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org