>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight a remembrance of those we lost in 2011. who have appeared on this program of the last 20 years. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following:

>> additional funding provided by these funders: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: tonight we close the year by remembering some of the people we lost in 2011. these men and women led lives of purpose and consequence. some enrichard our culture through their inventions,

art and enterprise. others inspired us with the power of their words and ideas. all of them left an impact on the world that we live in. many appeared on this program over the last two decades and here's a look back at the conversations. >> tell me why you think experimental theatre is so crucial. >> well, it's not that i think experimental these certificate so crucial, i think that the human being is crucial. and i really had no interest in theatre. but i've always had an interest in people. and the fact that we are doing theatre is because the persons we're interested in wanted to do theatre. and so that became my push cart. >> bringing people together in confrontation is a natural. and people are absolutely-- and it's more truthful.

i mean you can create a starlet with-- you can't great a great ballplayer. >> is television changing sports in terms of the writing about sports. >> it's created a lot more readers which is why there are so many sports books now. you couldn't tl a orts book a few years ago. and the things that's never mentioned about it is it has been improving. they now have almost enough cameras to do justice to baseball and there aren't enough cameras in the world for that but still the difference is enormous. >> rose: you will only regret not what you have done but what you didn't do. >> well, another way of saying that, exactly. so i think i've gone for the people i loved. i've spent a little bit of money i've had. i haven't worried abou about-- economies. i did it then even there in oxford where i had 0 money, dad had died 1 months ago

there was no money in the price family. mother this had to go to work at a boy's clothing store immediately. but i went there and took ses il rhodes's illgotten gains and spent it on myself as lavishly as possible. >> the next year i won the william faulkner award for the novel. and i had never met the m. though i had stood next to him at the-- american academy and had never had the guts to walk over and introduce myself because i heard he had been rude to so many people. but then i got all these young southern writer, mr. price heir to faulkner, oh, god, i'm not an heir to anything. i'm a young american writer. >> rose: it was almost like if you googled today no matter how far back they go, if you googles reynolds price and william faulkner you would hear what you just said repeated over and over and over again >> as the years have gone on,

the decades have gone on and i have now published 38 books, i hear it less, this reynolds price southern writer -- >> but also because you have ranged far. >> yeah, and people can now, now be sort of praiseful about it. distinguished about it, well, all right. if y insist. but i still very much prefer to be just thought of as a good or bad writer and an american writer. >> what made the dodgers sort of a different and a special team? most of you lived in brooklyn, didn't you. >> well we did during the season. most of us went to our homes wherever it might be during the winter. but we had a real talking about, getting back to our discussion, we had a rule in our ball club if somebody threw out one of our hitters, two of their hitters went down. and-- . >> rose: that would send a message.

>> pretty soon when we played the giants and willo and charlie were managing against each other, a 1-0 game it might take three and a half hours because there would be lights and everything. and i never charged them out. i remember marv was pitching against us one night and he had a 95 mile an hour fast ball and a real good screwball that would change up type screwball that really brobling down away from me. and he rew that screwball and i was looking for it. i reached out and one-handed it into the right field seats for a home one. as i rounded first base marv is standing there just like this as a round first base and he says we'll see how you hit off your number next time. >> when we began this process, the picture that i had in my head of lobbying was of the guys in the guchi loafers standing outside ot committee rooms as they come

in and give them the thumbs up, thumbs down on whatever amendments is being voted on. and ofcourse those same people are same time writing check force their political action committees for those members. that is stone age lobbying. >> it's much more sophisticated. >> and it's much more outside of washington and much less adviceable to the press or ot public. the organizations that we were writing about that were in the heart of this health care fight on both sides, i should say, operate now almost like little political parties, charlie. what i mean by that is they have gone into the marketplace. they've paid top dollar to hire the best pollsters, the best media advisors, the best field organizers. and they use all of the of the modern electronic communications equipment to gin up their supporters, the people that they have enlisted in the cli sid side-- countryside and flood these congressional ofces with what looks like

authentic grass roots opinion. but is, of course, unlike, u know, the b political parties which represent a broad spectrum of voters with a whole broad set of interests, these volks ve a very defined agenda. and for the most part their agenda is to protect what they already have in the statusco. so this kind of interest is perfectly letimate, nothing undemocratic orim legal about it. but they have become so powerful now that they have beco really barriers to making any major change that affects their status. >> i think our standing around the world is lower than any time in my memory, substantially lower than any time in our memory. 80% of the american people think we are on the wrong track. so we have to return to a situation where america's

reputation can be restored, and doing so, i think we have to begin to solve problems not through armed forces but through the soft power that has been so effective around the world this won't happen overnight it will take a lot of work over at least a decade but america has enormous inner strength and i've got great confidence in the future if we simply will get back on the track of wanting to be friely power for the rest of the world despite our enormous per. >> you get a chance to serve the most important cabinet position in our government. what was your-- evaluate those four years for us. >> you know, i think i would have to leavether people to evaluate it from an outside standpoint, from my standpoint it was the greatest four years of my life. the best appointed job. d i think we succeeded in doing some positive things.

i think perhaps we left the country a little better than we found it. certainly the economy was better. e leadership and the economic, he really brought an economic dimension to foreign policy in the way nobody else has. we stopped the war in the balkans, bought peace to the balkans. a number of other positive things. of course there are things that that might have been better. i think might have been better off. it was a marvelous four years to me and i will always be grateful to president clinton for letting him try to do that job. >> rose: dow find common themes in most of the characters you have created. because people who write about you look for this noti of the lost soul seeking -- >> and trying to find a family and all that. i didn't know it but peoe have told me. i don't see it. and but people have told me. >> rose: and you're not driven by that idea. >> i'm not driven by it at

all. >> rose: it is not something you have at all. >> i get into the play and say oh my god there it is again. and i didn't even knowt was there. >> re: now that you know about it. >> looking for a family. >> rose: where do you think it comes from. >> probably being -- probably being abandoned when i was five years old and my mother remarrying something, we didn't get along and i went back to california to be with my real father. weidn't get along. so probably trying to find a family. i found a lot of really nice surrogate families in friends and groups and in theatre groups. that's my family. >> rose: they became family for you. >> yeah, that's pie family. >> rose: is it an effective substitute for you? i mean -- >> i thought so but maybe since i'm writing about it so much it's not. >> rose: talk to dr. rose. when you write, how does it-- how do you start it? >> well, i usually, usually after going around for a long while and saying i'm not thinking of anything, i never goan idea, i never

should have stted this, now people expect me to do it, ifinally have some characr so it starts with a character who has some kind of beef. and he's backing about something. and will talk for a long while and then someone will finally say oh shut up. and then you've got two points of view. and then you begin to have-- then you're off and running. you have a conflict and you have to decide where they are because of the atmosphere. d most of the time is what you e on t stage the images that were in your mind? >> they used to be. but i've worked so long with marshal mason, my director-- . >> rose: and co-founder of circle referb along with rob and tanya,. >> i've worked so lo with him that now i see sometimes i see the characters in close up. sometimes i say excuse me, one moment, but there are times when just dialogue. i just know what they are saying. i have no idea where they are, on stage, what it looks

like or anything. it's just, i'm just working out the conflict and let him worry about that he does better anyway. >> you can't run the city just with a very small group of people. this is a great town. and it's lots of talent. and if people fl part of the attempt at solution, you know, they will be patient. if they are excluded, they are not going to be. >> you said great town with a lot of talent is that talent ready to go to work in government to try to make it work? >> well, it depends. giuliani said this morning he will reach out for that talent virtually across the line, everythnic line. but let me just say to you that, you know, reaching out and becoming a public official is not easy today. >> rose: you ought to know. >> well, appointment is easy, easier than running for election. but dow subject yourself to a lot of abuse. i mean he wasn even getting paid for s job,he

did an astounding job and yet has suffered a lot of criticism om a lot of people over the years. >> well, i think adam and eve is a very good way of telling a very complex story. >> rose: okay but let me understand, it's telling a story. >> yes. >> rose: so it's what. >> it's imagery. >> it's metaphor. >> rose: it didn't happen that way but it's a nice metaphor. >> i don't think it happened that way. i think it's much too complicated to suggest it happened that way. >> rose: it happened like darwin said. >> i think it's probably closer to darwin than anything else. >> rose: so why do you believe when you can't prove. >> well, i believe lots of things i can't prove. if i had to depend on the things in that i could prove-- i would stay in a box, or a bottle somewhere. >> rose: what else do yo believe in like that? like faith. >> friendship, the per of friendship. >> i believe in love, in odness, i beeve in all those things that can't be dem straited or squared at any significant way. and i actually believe that my scientific friends

believe far more than they can prove. >> rose: sometimes they say that faith begins where sciee cannot prove. >> well, i'm not sure that's necessarily true because that's sort of the god of the gaps. once you begin to explain something then that's one less bit of god around. no, i don't believe that. i believe that faith is a critical ingredient in science. i mean tt scientist operate on the hypothesis that there is such a thing as truth there is such a thing as verify ability, that there is such a thing as the result of a particular kind of process. and that is-- i know devout scientists say i don't believe in god, i do believe scientific meth, scientific meth may very well have a hat on and cape just like the "wizard of oz". without knows. so i don't see any natural competition between the two ways of thinking about the

world. >> i thought i only had a few feet and i would be standing on beach under the water. >> rose: you were standing in water. >> i didn't even stand in water. i went over my head because an aerial bomb from the air force had landed, unknown to me, when, i don know. but i couldn't see that it was a bomb crater underwater so i went underwater. so i fight my way up. i don't want t lose my gather and stuff want to need. and when i bopped up, my guys grabbed me and pulled me up and then we hit the beach. th wound, it burned a little but it didn't hit anything vital and we just hurredly ran to the bottom of the cliffs and grabbed the first ropes we saw and up the cliffs we went. remembering there's 100 feet straight hand overhand and you're loaded with a lot of stuff that and the germans

are trying to cut your rope and shoot you off the rope. we couldn't fly back because we're climbing. so it was hectic, to say the least. >> rose: what is it you want us to remember about d-day? and those who were with you and those who didn't make it, and those who did? >> that's what i would want you to remember. those who didn't make it. the rest of us that did make it and came back, we have been successful and lived a wonderful life. but those that didn't make it, and there were many, like we had 70% casualties on d-day. they're still in my heart, still in my mind and in my mind, the minds of my men. we get together frequently. we have a reunion coming up at fort bening in october of those that have survived. and we're very close and

have been for these 65 years. with our families. we'retill meeting between reunions and get at least three phone calls or letters a week and i have for 65 years from my guys. so what do i want to remember, i want to remember those that didn't make it. because those that did make it like myself, we have-- we're all successful and doing well. but we can't and have never forgotten those who died in world war ii. they made a great sacrifice. >> african-americans have always been the symbolic litmus test about the viability of american democracy, of we symbolically represent the distance between what america says about itself versus what it actually is.

who say citizen and who is not. who rides in the jim crow car and whooes not. who lives in the ghetto and who does not. that truth, that underlines the foundation of american history still underlined the 1990s for the reality of race and class in the united states. >> the title of the book the great wealth of democracy comes from dr. martin luther king, jr.'s letter from birminghamail as well as from his last public address, the mountaintops speech in memphis that he delivered a day before he died. and it evokes a recognition that there have been two narratives or two stories that we americans tell about the meaning of democracy. one-story everybody knows. life, liberty and happiss-- es consed in the declaraon of independence, and the bill of rights and the constitution. but unfortunately the other story, the african-american story is that we know that those ideals have not generally been applied to us as well as other raisized

minorities. and so the search is to create a new dialogue to enhance civil society, to find a way to bridge the racial divide. many white americans have to learn our story, our narrative about the meaning of race in american life. >> what do you propose we do? >> i think that part of telling that story is to construct a narrative about structural racism. before there was an american constitution there was structural racism, before there was a declaration of independence there was structural racism. and by structural racism, i mean that the institutions whether it's the economy, the state, political institutions, social institutions were framed and structured around the dynamic of what i call the three ps, prejudice, power and privilege. >> right. >> prejudice, the stereotyng, the stig matization of people because of their pheno type or skin

color, power the use of institutional resources to carry o the prejudice and privilege, the structure of benefits simply by being white in a racist society, not unlike the preferences of the legacies that president george w. bush has benefitted from. >> rose: wre does a movie start for you? >> it starts when i either have read a script that's been sent to me and what happens, charlie, is i just react completely instinctively. i'm not analyzing it. i have no theme. i have no idea of the kind of picture i want to do. i'm open. and a very good audience. and what to me is interesting is thatlmost every time i've accepted a scriptt's been on the first reading. if i have had to read it more than once chances a i said no. and-- . >> rose: if it doesn't grab you at first reading then you pass. >> well, you know, there are

obviously deficiencies, i have done some bad movies but also some very good ones. >> rose: you also say some of the movies you did because a you needed to work. >> absolutely. >> rose: you got tired of waiting for the right film so you just made one. or because you needed the money. in some cases those films have turned out better than the movies you made because it seemed like theest ing in the world for you. >> absolutely. you know what happens, i don't thi anyone, anybody good reallynows when the work is going to turn out good. i'm not being falsely modestly here. i think there is a reason i have gotten good results and other directors will never get good results. but it is a question of preparing the ground in such a way that the lucky accident can happen. and i know this is true of musicians, i know many writers feel that way. when when you just prepare the ground so that the piece can take on a life of its own and run away with it. >> rose: what dow look for. >> talent, start with that. >> rose: is that hard to find? >> not as hard as you think.

we are blessed in this country. >> rose: i would think so. >> almost all of our stars are magnificent actors. and there are a lot of them. much higher percent than any other country. then dharlee, you get into that search for every star certainly, is some kind of combination. it seems to be three things. their talent, start with that. good actors. when i talk about actors i'm talking about actor actors-- then-- that seems to coincide, and also since really good acting is always self-revelation, something about the truth of that person is going to come out if i have done my job and they are doing their job right. so that what they are as a-- just as a human being, those three things are something that matter a great deal to me when i'm casting. >> technology t is said, and

i'm sure you understand this, that the creative side of the brain is different, that would create music and conduct music, is different from the other side of the brain which would be involved in running a business in management and in understanding technology. >> that's a big question. >> you can switch off. >> yes, so when i come to the podium, then switch to the musician. >> is that so. >> when you go the next morning to sony headquarters,. >> off the switch. >> it's that easy. >> yes. >> rose: are you a better businessman because you have a life in music? does it, does it just feed your soul or does it also make you somehow -- >> ts is-- i cannot say yet, i have such sweet, sometimes i am so-- when that switch to the-- then i

am very businessman. >> re: will it be a happy moment forou when you walk up to that podium and rise -- >> when i amo switch to the music, then there i am very happy to conduct orchestra. and next morning when i switch to businessman, then i must be with the businessman. >> tell mehat goes into a cartoon before we look at them. what is it you do? do you get inspired? do you think about a story you want to tell, what dow do? >> well, all those things. but you think about the the hoy you are going to depict him, who he is. you are not only looking at his face. you are studying him, a cartoon that you see, and a writer sees more than the average person.

it just happens to be that way because you're always studying. i, for instance looked at casey and i see him with his hands behind his-- in his back pocket, bow legged and hunched over and there's character in his stance. you put all of that in it. and then of course there's a story, you're going to tell a story and the story behind that, whatever it is. you throw it all in. >> another one is leon spinings. >> he just wore a crown that was too big for his head. >> go ahead. >> a lot of critics call this your very best cartoon. do you think so? >> no, i don't think so. but i appreciate. >> re: you know why they say it, you know they say it. >> yes, i heard them say it, yeah. well, it's because no words, simple,nd-- .

>> rose: the crown is too big for the head. >> it tells the whole story. he won against muhammed ali. >> rose: a fluke. >> it wasn't a fluke but it wasn't the muhammed ali that he was supposed to be. >> we've got to be tied in this country and with our allies. where are the important areas that we must use our pressure, our weight. we've got to begin to think together about what this new world ought to look like in the next century. and to argue then that we have lost our way, that we arbts as strong as we were, we aren't as compeed to act as we were is in part true. but remember something, the last 50 years, all of us had an enemy. we knew who he was. we made our foreign policy decisions fundamentally against a context of how does it affect the cold war, the balance between the soviet union and the unite states. and without admitting that i

lived through that, it was a lot easier to make those decisions then than it is now. because we don't have that any more. and what is it we want the world to look like in the 21st century, deserves some hard thought. and in that sense bosnia has come along at a terrible time. because we haven't thought through what it is we want the world to look like or what our role in it ought to be and what our collective role ought to be. and i can't answer it except in that sense. i'm personally optimistic, i think the american people and the american congressional though right now they scare me to death, will come back to a conclusion that this is a great country and that the world can't be peaceful and stable without it. and without our participation. but we must be careful when we participate because everything doesn't relate to the cold war. and some things awful as they are, simply are not sufficiently important, a internal way to say it. they may be teibly

important and horrible and bos that is one of them but if we pro live rates our a tements to bring stability, we may in fact make some things much, much worse. should we go into chechnya and tell the russians to stop murder there. ould we have gone into rwanda and burundi and stopped the murder there. why didn't we do sething about cambodia when ty killed 2 million people. and none of those are a defense for not doing anything in bosnia. they are, hever, an tempt to describe to you the kind of problems we're going to have to face. and so we're going to have to say we can do something about. and some we're going to say awful but we can't do anything about it and i will now shut up. i have lectured far too long, i'm sorry. >> rose: what bring you the greatest satisfaction? >> i think that i will tell you what i have-- still within participation. and that's going-- when you

go. >> watching your rformance. >> from the day before, you go in and you see i hope it is as good as i thought 2 was when we did it or i hope i overreacted and it wasn't as bad as i thought it was when we did it you go in, and you can't wait to se it and yo go out and are he late order you could be depressed. >> when you went to college, did you want to be an acker then? you did a little bit of acting in college. >> uh-huh, yeah, i acted where ever i went but no, i didn't want to be an acker in college. i did want to be an actor, but i wouldn't tell anybody else. and i certainly i would never admit to melf. >> rose: how about to your parents. >> oh, no, when i decided to be an actor, i was about 25, 26 years old and i told my father. my father said you're going paint your face and make a

ass of yourself for the rest of your life? >> he loved the body. he loves painting the body t is a challenge for him. he likes painting what he sees, he paints everything as he sees it. and the body is one of the most interesting things to paint. >> i love this over here. >> you like that or is tha shl it --. >> that's a great painting. that's called the artist surprise by -- >> it was painted in the mirror. >> it is a mirror image. you want realize that. >> when he got his fan letter she wanted to sit for him so he got her written and thought-- tried to think of a new pose which no artist has ever done before. and then put a between around hess leg. and it has quite a story. >> no, i love it. >> what do we say about the fact that he is sigmund

froid's grandson. >> he's notted from psychology. he's not interested in his-- he liked his grand. >> rose: spent time with him. >> but he takes absolutely no-- lack of interest in psychology. but he admires his grandfather enormously for being a zoologist. because freud started off as a zoologist a he is very proud of the fact that he apparently was the first person to discover how you can tell the sex of eels. >> rose: how does he think of himself? >> he thinks of himself as a very dedicated artist. and one that you know is passionate about his work, is very truthful about his work. and i don't know what else i can add to that. it his whole life, it revolves around his work. he works from 9 in the morning til about 3 in the

afternoon then he takes a rest and then he works it from about 7 until about 11 or 11:30 at night and does that seven days a week. >> rose: were tear gassed. you were whipped, imprisoned. you tell the story of being in the cell and you bring -- >> yeah, i think what the government was really trying to do was intimidate me because as the leader of t movement,hey believed that if they can intimidate me then i wl abandon it and thatill be the end othe movement. >> rose: they didn't know you, did they. no, thedidn't quite know me, because the more they tried to intimidate me the more i was committed and -- >> so where did this come from within you. >> well, i think -- >> what gave you the strength. >> i think part of it is actually the experience-- i went to school, when girls

were not going to school which was of itself a wonderful opportunity. and then i spent a lot of time with the nuns and at the end, the beginning of the '60s i find myself benefitting from program that was introduced by president kennedy who wanted to bring he and politicians at that time wanted to bring african students to america to study in america. he wanted to open up america to africans and vice versa. >> rose: then he created the peace corps. >> he created the peace korpts later on, actually. sow was actually a very visionary president. and for that reason i found myself in new york and then later on in kansas in a small college called mount-- and it was during the '60s, during the civil rights

movement in this country. and i know for sure that that created a-- in me that value system in me that made me who i was when i went back t kenya. >> you can browse the web with it. it is the best browsing experience you have ever had. it's phenomenal to see a wol web page right in front of you and you can manipulate with your fingers. it's unbelievably great. way better than a laptop. way better than a smart phone. and you can turn ipad anyway you want, up, down, side waste, it automatically adjusts however you want to use it. and again, to see the whole web page is phenomenal. right there, holding the internet in your hands. it's an incredible experience. >> how do you think of yourself? >> i mean after apple, after nex, how do you think of yourlf. >> the things i have done in

my life, the things we do at pixar, these are team sports. they're not something that one person does. we've got-- you have to have an extraornary team because these are, you're trying to climb a mountain with a whole party of people. a lot of stuff to bring up the mountain so one peon can't do it. and i first got involved in this when i heard about this incredible group of computer graphic specialists that george lucas had assembled at lucasfilm that heanted to sell. and so i went up there and saw what they were doing and i met the leader of this group, group, and ed told me about his dream which was to make the firstomputer animated feature film some day. and showed me what this team was working on. and i was blown away. i spent a lot of time in computer graphics with the macintosh and laser writer buthis was way beyond anything i've seen. and so i bought into that dream both spiritually if you will and financially.

and we bought the computer division from george. and incorporated it as pixar. john was there from the very start. was there and we were joined by other people along the way. and it took us ten years to do it. >> what was so hard? >> oh, there were-- good question, huh. >> yeah, it is a good question. it took us a long time to build the technical foundation to dohis stuff. we were pioneering every step of the way, pixar invented all of this stuff, but as john says we don't view our ef i as a technology company, our product is content, all of it is just in the service of the storytelling, of the eative people. and computer animation is a misnoer. the computers don't dot animation, they do the drawing. and they crank on ese drawing arings for like three hours but one of the fastest computers which is item drawings are three dimensional. but the animators act, you know, i've watched john and his team work. they are the heart and soul of the characters, they do

all the acting, not the computers. >> but to make re i understand what you are sayi, i would think that people, when i was telling you about my interest in what in the world is going on and where the future is headed and you said that's not where we are about. the point you want to make is that we are about entertainment and the service of the entertainment that we eate. >> we're about telling, we're about putting stories into the culture, that's-- we are about telling stories. >> rose: and you've got a different paintbrush and you've got a different canvas than everybody else does or it's more advanced, better, more -- >> but you know i will let john speak to this i know a lot of people at pixar. our heroes are disney. look at what they have done. we've all got young children. and our kids watch these disney films and they learn a lot from these disney films abougood and evil and right and wrong and they are entertained. >> rose: a great storytelling. >> it's incredible. >> what did-- say, that kid

need neither segregated schools or intrated schos. what they need is good schools. and i think that is the thing, goo jobs. good opportunities to be representative of your people, in elections, and all the rest. and i think maybe we would be better off if we got past those terms. got past the term racism for that matter because it now means very different things to different people. >> then how do you-- go ahead. so that i think that what we need a decision on racial that clinton talked about. the problem is our discussions on race so focus on are blacks ready s affirmative action good, are they going too far t fast. how about this. there's not enough discussion on race and whites and on the property rights in being white that every white person whether they want it or not, what that means, how it

advantages, how it influences decisions. that's where we need the education. >> rose: as the shaping influence in your lif, covering world war ii, tell me what it's done for you and what the experience was for you. >> well, i think it's loaded my stock of things to write about. i mean i am chock full of things have have never put down and many of them kate out of the war. i am constantly reminded of things coy start all over and not reat anything in there. so that i think a writer does need to have sort of a fullback. >> when you went back to rit this, did you go back and read all the things that you had written. >> i didn't read all of them but i went through a lot of the stories i had written, hundreds of them and made notes. and i not only, not only

reminded me of that specific story but then it reminded me of things i never wrote about that story. >> you were, when you think of the event that you covered, you just happen to reflect on some of them, d-day, you were at normandy. >> i was not there d-day. >> but you came on a couple days later. you got there fast enough to see the body stacked up on the beach. >> yes. >> it was-- d-day as i said was a y unlike any oth. it was even four days later, to walk along that beach and see the american boys covered with blankets, it was horrible vision in my brain that will never go away. >> i think that if you are lucky enough to have been given certain talents and results in life, and you have ideas because i'm a big

believer in president power of ideas, that you ought to try to, try to promulgate those ideas for the good of everyone. and i, you know, i would, sounds like a big deal but you can do it in tiny ways. i would like-- i try to spend as much time as i can in as many ways as i can trying to make the world a little bit better for as many people as i can. bothn the world of ideas and in the world of actually trying to help people. >> touching one life at a time. >> yeah. >> tell me about the children why children. >> well, i don't know. i mean i had a kind of a, you know, childhood which where i was kind of not that happy and confused and all the rest. and i think i have a feeling for kids that-- that are in

need need for one reason or another because i think they're particularly vulnerable and particularly kind of defenseless. and you can take any condition you want to whether it's an aids by or, whatever you want to give me, and they are particularly defenseless. and have not started to lead a life, and to try to do their own thing. and i think they're just, i don't know but that's what gets me the most. >> and do you have personal involvement with them? some of them? >> oh, yeah. >> what do they give you. >> oh, gosh, i mean, first of all the kids themselves whher they're, and i do this kind of all over the worl whether it's, you know, in a bosnia or in a wounded child who didn't do anything except, you know, chase a butterfly and step on a landmine, or a little

kid in south africa of whom there are over 3 million street children under the age of ten in south africa. and that's all a direct result of apartheid. i mean it's just follows as day follows the night so you see a six-year-old kid slping on a street, you know, you can't have that. that's just not-- or any of these things. the kids are unbelievable. they don't know how to complain. i've never met a kid in any of these situations, anyplace in the world that complained to me about anythi thawas goingn with him, never. >> the charitable part of what we did is now pretty close to having sent 100,000 kids to the school of their choice. so that's pretty good. i mean you know, it was-- it's

pretty good. >> yeah. >> and the kid gses to school wherever they want. >> wherever they want. >> and the children's skip fund pays for most of it. in terms of how it's changed the debate, people telmo that it's changed the debate pretty fundamentally. i mean people like the chancellor in new york and -- >> george klein. >> and the mayor and others say you know, you really did have an impact. you changed kind of the terms of the debate. i noticed in the mayor's letter to where his article and "newsweek", his little paragraph on education. >> right. >> kind of is an oshoot of what we re -- >> it isn't exactly the same thing but it's an offshoot. competition is no now not a dirty ward, charter schools anthey mean different things to different people, not a dirty word. you know, it's made some progress at the time, i remember being introduced to milton freedman who was very,

very-- and he said to me, what you've done is, you kn, he was very pleased, what you have done is really great. iam, however hd he was, i think it was 90 something, said don't be impatient. this is a big thing. and it's going to take a lo time. >> the people without guided the civil rights movement in the '60s both the political figures in the government and those who were leading the public movement, they believed and i've heard many people say t i heard at least three presidents say it, if we can just guarantee political rights to the black community, the right to vote, the right to hold public office o if we guarantee that, then everything else will follow because there will be citizens who can vote and they will take care o it for themselve. i don't think, i don't think anything could have been more wrong as we look back on it. because in america political power flows from economic

power, and not the other way around. and we did not or those who were leading the movement in the 1960s did not really attack the question of economic power. they attacked the question of political power, wrong end o. and i think until the black community has a greater degree of economic power, it's not going to have the necessary political power to improve os own standing. >> are youest friends. >> my best friend, my only friend. >> yeah. >> you want to be friends? >> rose: no i'm fascinate bid this, define it for me. >> why is it -- >> someone who i really love and would consider laying down my life for doesn't come along very often. someone who knows everything about you, understands

everything you say. you're asking because we had a quarrel over stalin. >> no i'm really interest asking because i like him a lot. were you classmates? >> knock, we weren't. we didn't meet until we were in london in the early '70s with. i met him briefly but he was a year behind me. >> you have lived a certain kind of life. >> yes. >> engaged by alcohol, cigarette, sex, politics, ideas, books. >> yes, i think i have been very lucky in that way. and i think, i'm sure it is-- you have to choose, you can be happy in one or the other, there is a way of connecting because if your work really is your life and thin like friendship and language and travel are also the work then you really are lucky. >> if you had known that there was a possibility of

getting cancer you would never have smoked a cigarette, would you have never drank or consumed the amount of liquor you consumed? >> no i think all the time i felt that life is a wager. and that i probably was getting more out of leading a bohemian interest as a writer than i would have if i didn't. so writing is what's important to me. and anything that helps me do that ornhances and prolonged and deepens and sometimes intensifies arguments in conversation is worth it to me, sure. so i was knowingly taking a risk. i wouldn't recommend it to others. >> . >> is a multipolar and multicultural world. >> a plurallistic quality.

and different identities for understanding and tolerant but at the same time one should know precisely the cultural specifics and where evil and violence begins. and it seems tome that the unittates cannot lie its way out of its obligations to be a barrier to evil. >> was it fix in the your mind then that you wanted to be a painter. >> pretty much, yes i thought about it and worked at it for years but by the

time i hit new york in 1949 and 50 that's all i wanted to be. >> and when you saw and met jackson pollock and dick kuhning and many others, what was their impact. what was the nature. >> oh, trem bus-- tremendous. >> of their influence on you. >> tremendous. i mean they were my new york mentors. >> early '50s, right? >> yes. and i had come from high schools and college at were preparion. but that shock, that recognition of what was going on in the art world in new york in those early '50s was tremendous for me and my family-- in my painting. we were then certainly probly still are the

capital of what's going on. >> when did you first put canvas on the floor? and stand there and say i'm going to create something different. >> well, i was heading towards it. but i think once i literally saw jackson and i used to go out and visit in spring, working on the floor and saw his methods and materials, i thought would like to try that too. i brought another message to it. >> i know did you, that is what i am getting at. >> but the approach took painting literally off the ease il-- ease el so that instead of dealing hedon with four sides and four corners, y felt the boundaries of the canvas, the scale of it were endless,

that-- as compared to risk alone. and zeroing in, and telescoping was nothing compared to this sweep of handling the meth and material in a different way. you still wanted the same result, which was a beautiful picture that worked. whether it was on the wall or anyplace, or in the end paintings are seen on walls, not on floors. >> and you know when you read a lot about you as i have, a lot is always said about beautiful and beautiful what dow say to that, when people take note and say what she does is beautiful, and some say, and you say because you have read all that i'm sure too. >> oh, yes, i'm hung on it. i think today beautiful which is always a tricky word, but now it's become an

incendiary word because in many ways today beauty is obsolete and not the main concern of art. and you can't prove beauty. it's there as a fact and you know it and you feel it. and it's real. but you can't say to somebody this hast. i mit be able to say it. and others my recognize it but it gives no specific message other than itself which in turn should be able to move you in to some sort of truth and insight and something beyond art. i mean initially it's pleasure that grows but it isn't just the shock of a message which you can have and dismiss.

once you'vead it, it's over captioning sponsoredy rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org