>> rose: welcome to our program. tonight, a conversation about global, economic, and political issues with george osborne, the chancellor of the exchequer from the great britain. >> i think in a lot better shape than we were before christmas. before christmas there was a real fear the your own zone bank would fail, we'd have a sovereign debt problem in one of the larger european economies. that has dissipated, thanks largely to the action of the european central bank and the better numbers out of the united states, give a sense, as we come into the spring, that sentiment might have improved, confidence is coming back. i'd say it's still frag skill i'd look at, for example, the oil prices as something we should be concerned about. if you'd asked me back in december would i like to be here in march, i would have said yes. >> rose: also, lin and cynthia

nixon from "wit" on broadway. >> i think when you read this play it's deceptive. it seems to be about cancer but it's really not about cancer. it's about transformation and the things that great plays are about, which is how someone does overcome obstacles and does prevail and finds redemption. i mean these are very basic things and have some laughs along the way. >> it is a kind of, as lynne was saying, a classic story like "scrooge." it's a person who thinks they have life figured out. thinks they're better than everybody and can order everyone around and everyone else is kind of an idiot, at their beck and call, and they are brought low, and they are amailsed to find that when they are brought low, as king lear rediscovering his love for his daughter, vivian bering discovers friendship and warmth and it just the-- the joy of having a friend. >> rose: a program note.

george cleany and john pretender ghast were scheduled for this evening's program. they're in washington to testify before the senate foreign relations committee. they'll be on this program tomorrow night. tonight, george osborne, cynthia nixon, lynne meadow, when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: george osborne is here. he is president's chancellor of the exchequer, accompanying david cameron on his visit to the united states.

president obama and david cameron devoted the press conference to iran and the economy was the focus. >> the united states and great britain with two ditch economies in two different positions. their banking sector was much larger than ourselves. their capacity to sustain debt was different than ours. and so as a consequence, each of us are going to be taking different strategies. >> it would be wrong to think britain is just taking measures to reduce its deficit. we're also taking a series of measures to help promote growth. just before coming here we took a series of steps to unblock and get moving our housing market. we cut corporation tax in our country to show it's a great destination for investment. we're investing in apprenticeships. a series of steps are being taken. there are differences, as barack has said, the state of the two

economies and circumstances we face but we're both trying to head in the same direction of growth and low deficits. >> rose: i am pleased to have george osborne here to talk about how he sees the global economy, european debt, and the austerity program and the upcoming budget he is fashioning as we speak. so welcome. god to see you again. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: let's focus first to the global economy. why wheredo you believe it is, stretching from europe to the united states to latin america, to asia? >> well, i think we're in a lot better shape than we were just before christmas. i think before christmas, there was a real fear that a euro zone bank might fail, that we'd have a sovereign debt problem in one of the larger european economies. that's dissipated, thanks largely to the action of the european central bank, and the better numbers out of the united states give a sense are as we come into the spring, that

sentiment might have improved. confidence is coming back. i'd say it's still frag and i will i'd look at, for example, the oil prices as something we should be concerned about. but if you had asked me back in december if i'd like to be here in march, i would have said yes. >> rose: so the idea is the biggest threat today may be the possibility of some dramatic shift because of political circumstances in the price of oil. >> well, i'd say there are probably two threats i would alert people to. one is the euro crisis nears up again. i don't think that's necessarily going to happen but it's something we have to be alert to in the story of this problem over the last two years that it's gone in waves. there are times when we think the problem has been dealt with and it hasn't. the other thing is the oil price, which obviously is high, very high. speaking in u.k. sterling terms, it's at a record high. and that is something all economies will be concerned about, and we saw a year ago what happeneds when you get a

sustained high oil price. i think it's slightly different now. it doesn't quite have the same spike feeling that it did a year ago. it seems more like a sustained increase, partly driven by demand but nevertheless, something we should be concerned about. >> rose: when you look at greece and sovereign debt, you believe it's under control? >> we have a greek program now that other members of the euro zone are contributing to. the i.m.f. is about to contribute to. i think the difference is that even if the program does not work out exactly as planned, i think the rest of the euro are in better shape than they were to deal with that. so the european central bank is being much more active than it was, say, last fall. and we've also got plans afoot to try and correct this firewall, this large bailout fund. we'll see if the euro zone will deliver on that. i think if you look at countries

like spain and italy, which were giving us cause causefor concern last alsoum, still a lot of difficult decisions they have to take. but we are not as nervous as we all were last autumn. >> rose: what are the conditions that have to be met before britain will make a-- the contribution that they wanted to make? >> to the i.m.f.? >> rose: yes. >> i think for the i.m.fernando the excellent managing director of the i.m.f., she has said she doesn't feel the i.m.f. has enough resources to deal with whatever the world might throw at us. there is a discussion about whether countries should be make additional contribution. britain is part of those discussions. everybody has said, whether you're talking to the british finance minnistic the japanese finance minister, we need to see more of a contribution from euro zone countries to their their own bailout funds before we can

have the conversation about whether other countries in the world need to enhance the fund of the i.m.f.. >> rose: this is an amount over $1 trillion. >> half has to come from the euro zone in their own assessment, and half they want to seek from the rest of the world. isome when we all come back here in washington in april for the spring meeting, that will be the main topic of discussion. >> rose: when you look at your own economy, and your own awe starity program, you have therú, questioning partly political action, and i assume that reflects on your government's decisions on austerity, to deal with the deficit, and, therefore, questioning whether you deserve a aaa rating. >> well, the question that moody's put to us, to the british government, i guess to the british public is this-- you have a plan to deal with your very high deficit. we have one of the highest

deficits from the world a situation the new government was left with but we're dealing with it. do you have the political will to see it through or are you going to chicken out? are you going to back off your austerity plan. they're entitled to ask that question. what i would say is we are demonstrating and we will demonstrate again when i produce the british budget next week that absolutely will stick to our deficit reduction plan. we have to get that deficit noun down. we know that. and we're prepared to take big substantive decisions on entitlementes, on welfare budget and the like to get that down. >> rose: and taxes? >> well, ivincreased consumption tax. our v.a.t. rate has gone up to 20%. that was not an easy decision to take. but i didn't think it should all come from a reduction in spending. i felt there had to be some tax component to it. around a 20% or so of of the consolidation has come from

increased consumption tax and the like. the rest has come from substantive reductions in government spending, entitlements, departmental budgets and the like. i've stressed it's not the only thing we're doing. we're also take quite serious tax reform to get our corporation taxerate ratedown at the same time, make britain a very attractive place to come and invest and do business and employ people. but fing we didn't have that bedrock of stability that a credible deficit reduction plan has, not being a country that has the benefit of a reserve currency, like the united states, i think we would be very exposed, like our european neighbors have been the last year, to high market interest rates and a loss of credibility. >> rose: what's your unemployment rate? >> about 8.4%. >> rose: close sowhat it is here. >> yes. >> rose: the argument is made in the united states and certainly in britain by the labor party, as well as by others in terms of columnists and commentators from "the guardian" to the "new york times," that you need a growth

program and the austerity program you have proposed, and it make included in the next budget, does not have a growth element to it. >> you certainly need economic growth. first i take issue with those who say britain should spend and borrow more. we have-- by the way, they're exactly the same people in good times and bad times who always say britain should spend and borrow more and indeed we usually argue that government should spend and borrow more. >> rose: in difficult times you need to invest, you need a stimulus for the economy when times are bad. >> we have in britain automatic stabilizers. our welfare budgets go up when unemployment rises, for example. but if are you not dealing with an 11% budget deficit-- which is what i found the country with two years ago-- if you're not dealing with the budget deficit, if you're not dealing with those things, market interest rates will go up. your central bank-- in our case the bank of england-- will not

be able to take the monetary activist approach at the present times to take, and it will be entirely self-defeating. you might spend a bit more government money, which you have to go out and borrow, but you will actually undermine confidence in your economy. business and families will place higher interest rates. your bank of england, your central bank will not be able to run the loose monetary policy it's able to run. i think it will be entirely self-defeating. what's interesting is when you look at people looking at the british economy like the i.m.f., like the o.e.c.d., other ands, they actually have applauded our program. they have support outside program. and if you look at the confidence the markets have had in the u.k., that has been pretty unwavering. >> rose: market one thing. how about economic growth as another? when they look tat also they say it has not achieved some of the objective they hoped it it would have achieved by now. >> we have been hit, like every other economy, including the u.s. economy, by the sharp

increase in the oil price last year, which definitely knocked the stuffing out of the global economy, but by what is happening in the your own zone. you don't choose the times you live in when you're doing my job. you have to deal with those times. but it's a fact, 40% of our exports has been affected by the contraction of the euro zone. our exports to countries like spain and italy have been very badly hit. now, we are building new markets. our exports to china are up 20% in britain, and our economy i think is becoming more competitive. in these lead tables of who's got the most competitive economy in the world, we have re-entered the top 10 corporate tax rate i was just talking about is one of the most attractanist world. i think are you seeing an improvement in sentiment and confidence in the british economy, given want fact that like the united states, we had a very tough with the banking crisis. >> rose: when you look-- what is your judgment for the appropriate percentage that debt should be of g.d.p.? >> well, we are at the moment

just trying to stop debt rising as a percentage of g.d.p. that is our objective -- >> it is what, 70-something now? >> yes, it's just approaching that. and we wanted to peek and then start-- peak and then start to fall -- >> peak at 79 or something? >> the reason i'm being a little bit cagey is in a week's time i'm going to produce the latest u.k. economic forecast of our debt, so as much as-- i think i would be breaching a number of protocols. we have set out a very clear ambition to get debt falling as a percentage of g.d.p. by 2015. so we have to get the deficit down. it's adding each year to our debt and turn the corner and people can see we'll be heading in the right direction. absolutely i want that debt-to-g.d.p. ratio falling. >> rose: in that period, until you get it to start to fall, do you believe you can have growth, or are you simply looking at markets as an indication of your success? >> we absolutely want growth.

we want -- >> i know you want it but do you believe you can achieve it? >> if you go on the last set of forecasts i published, the end of the november, so take into account i have to produce forecasts in a week's time, but if you look at the last set of forecasts, they did forecast growth in each year. they forecast that britain would avoid a recession. that has been our forecast. and they also forecast in the years ahead falling unemployment. so what i would say is of course we want economic growth. and there are things you can do to make britain more entrepreneurial, things you can do to support the private sector, things we're doing to invest in new road and rail infrastructure. we're doing all those things. and it's got -- >> at the same time you are reducing deficit and engaging in austerity programs having to do maybe with the social welfare programs. >> i've made some tough choices. i've prioritizeed science spend, education spend, but i have

reduced entitlementes, increased pension ages. i've made some active choices. it's not cuts across the board. we have chosen to prioritize spending in those areas ching a knowledge economy like the u.k., or dare i say the u.s., should be investing. >> rose: the arguments are being made to president obama, as well, as you know, in order to create a competitive economy in a very competitive times and in changing times, you have to have an investment in education, you have to have an investment in science. you have to do those kinds of things, which means spending. >> well, of course there is an important component of government spending, and as i say, we're getting into the detailed british domestic policy, but i have protected our schools' budgets. i have invested in our science budget. we have building high-speed rail lines up and down the country, across london, and so on. so we are doing those investments. what i would say is, it can't just be government alone.

government spending alone. yes, you need education spending. we also need education reform, and we're -- >> some of that volunteerism? >> it's about-- what we're doing in britain is akin to the charter school movement in the united states. we are setting-- we're undertaking major reforms to free our schools from state education bureaucracy. if you look at investment in infrastructure, we are trying to get pension funds investing in private pension funds investing in british infrastructure. we've got chinese sovereign wealth funds looking at investment in british infrastructure now, and i think britain being an open economy that welcomes investment from everywhere. i would say, yes, you need smart government, but you also need the private sector to grow as well. in the end britain eye would say this is true of many countries -- can't rely on government spending when running large budget deficits. >> rose: some have said the president in cutting

entitlements has not been willing to go that far because he thought it would have a negative impact. >> well, first of all, i'm here in washington -- >> political life. >> what i would say about the president, first of all, this administration has taken some very important decisions, for example on recapitalizing the banks early, essential to not just the u.s. recovery but the whole western recovery. second, on the deficit reduction, the united states has more freedom of maneuver as a reserve currency. that is undoubtedly the case. but if you look at the profile of deficit reduction over the medium term, it is actually pretty similar in the united states to the united kingdom. we both understand, and the president was talking about this, this morning on the lawn at the white house-- he understands, as we do, that you can't run these large deficits forever. you've got to have a plan to reduce them. >> rose: and you have to do it simultaneously, create growth and reduce the deficit. that's the believe of magic everybody is looking for, or the

balance. >> those who think growth only comes from government spending would find that difficult to believe. i am someone who believes the-- the enterprise of the private sector, the innovation of business, the desire of people to better their lives lives is t drives sustainable economic growth. >> rose: in terms of financial regulations regulations that have been proposed in america are it, dodd-frank, as well as the volker rule, do you believe that is this is an effective and necessary response to the financial collapse we have? >> i think it's inevitable after what happened. financial centers like the united states, like the u.k. look at how to better regulate their banks. they are not too big to fail, and in the united states you've had dodd-frank. in united kingdom we are undertaking what are called the vickers reforms. we have all had a similar desire to regulate our banks. people who believe in free

markets and in enterprise, and, you know, the greatest proponents of those can be found on wall street or the city of london. we've got to get away from the situation where the u.s. treasury secretary or the british chancellor has no other option on the night but to bail out a financial institution. we should create mechanisms that allow the people doing our jobs to let those institutions fail. >> rose: would you have bailed out general motors and chrysler here in the united states? >> the question is, is it a sustainable business that has been hit by a-- an unpredicted financial event? and with a-- with a bit of government support could it get through that? or is it fundamentally an uncompetitive -- >> let's assume it's a, the former. it turns out to be the reality, does it not? >> of course there's a role for government -- >> in coming to the rescue of important industries that are, for whatever reason, likely to

fail? >> let's take-- a small business in britain that has a real problem with its tax bill. un, our revenue service might give it in sometime -- >> stretch out payment. >> that's a form of government intervention, making a decision that the business has a future. it has a real cash flow problem because of, for example, a catastrophic -- >> if it fails will not contribute to tax revenue or provide jobs. >> but there comes a point where you say unfortunately this business hasn't got a future. >> rose: who makes that decision? >> in the end these are matters of discretion, and matteres of judgment. in the end, as an economy, you've got to be a competitive, sustainable place to do business. and you cannot rely on government being the answer to all your problems. and in the united kingdom, we have gotten to a place where 40% our entire national income was being consumed by the state. that is totally unsustainable in a world where we've got a very

competitive set of global players out there who are out there seeking to improve their economies, move up the knowledge chain and the like. britain and other western countries have to get into the game of being competitive entrepreneurial place centers and and the world should wish china success because if they provide the market-- and you're saying 20% of your export goes there-- that's a win-win for everybody. if. >> in my lifetime, the greatest force for the allevation of poverty has been globalization. it has taken hundreds of millions, literally hundreds of millions of exceptionally poor chinese and indians out of grinding poverty and given them opportunities in life. that is the power of the free markets when harnessed for goods. and i would say it must be a good thing that china becomes a more develop economy, that people have more ambition and aspiration there, that you have this growth middle class. ultimately what they want to do

is not just make things for u.s. or u.k. consumers and we're in this odd situation where we are borrowing money from the chinese in order to pay them for the goods they manufacture. >> rose: that's our situation, too. >> but actually, we want to be in a situation where we are selling them new pharmaceutical products that their family has never had in their history. when they travel for the first time on our planes, they are traveling on airbus with rolls royce engines. >> rose: boeing and g.e. >> when they come as tourists as the japanese did 20 or 30 years another first start coming, they come to cities like london and enjoy our olympic games this year and jubilee-- there are many things britain is good at. government at financial services, good at pharmaceuticales, good at aerospace. those are the kinds of things chinese consumers wants and britain has to have the

self-confidence to go out there and sell that to the world. >> rose: the united states wants to increase-- the president says this every other stop-- increase its manufacturing base. it wants wants to make clear the united states has the opportunity to develop the kind of manufacturing industry that will have the ability to serve markets around the world and create jobs here, certain kinds of jobs. >> but it has to be-- in the end, a work on a production line in ohio is not going to be able to compete simply on wages with a work or the production line outside shanghai. it has to be the quality of the work and the -- >> and the kind of product you're produce ago. >> the value of the product. and i think we can do that. i think the british economy can do, that the u.s. economy. manufacturing is incredibly important. >> rose: taking iran, first of all, economic sanctions. do you believe they are work? >> yes, they are. >> rose: okay. >> there is no doubt there is now the toughest set of sanctions in place and it is having an impact on the iranian

regime -- >> and they acknowledged it most recently. >> that is true. second question, is that enough? i think we have to make sure as a world it is enough. for us, whether in the united states or the u.k., it is overwhelming in our center interest that we resolve this through a-- with a peaceful outcome. >> rose: not military. >> if we can use sanctions to force the regime to come to a rational decision its future and the future of the-- of its people, then all well and good. whether we will get there, we will see. but i am-- i am confident that the sanctions action is showing iran that we are deadly serious -- >> the question you have is whether iran will make a rational decisions too that the pain it is enduring for its economy and for its people, in whatever dislocation it causes there, is sufficient incentive. you don't know whether that is in fact true or not. >> i guess none of us know. >> rose: no.

but you believe it. >> but i'm absolutely clear that we've got to try every single peaceful route. we don't take anything off the table. both the u.s. administration and u.k. government have made that clear. we have to try the peaceful route because let's be clear, the alternative will have very serious consequences for the world. none of us wants to see iran get a nuclear weapon. but let's try the peaceful route to achieve that. >> rose: there is a time limit on that, though, because, a, if they're moving fast to parts of or b., making decision on its own track, there's a certain time limit in which you make a decision that sanctions have achieved a result or not. you can't continue with sanctions forever. >> iran wants to reengage in talks. we should regard that as a positive thing. second, as the president made clear, the united states is saying to israel, just like the u.k. is, we, too, have made it clear we don't want iran to develop a nuclear weapon.

that's an objective of british and american foreign policy. but there are routes you can try and the sanctions route and deputy diplomatic routes are the ones we are trying. if you had said there would be an oil embargo, and freezing the assets of the-- a lot of european countries were relying on iran fair lot of their oil would ever be able to sign up for that. they have. and i think iran has been caught by surprise by the unity of the international community and the unity of its response. >> rose: do you believe chineica come around on these issues? >> well, i think i think china-- it's also in china's interest that iran not have a nuclear weapon. i think we're engaged in a discussion with the chinese. they have taken part in the u.n. resolutions that have covered some action against iran earlier. but, clearly, we would like like china to do even more. >> rose: syria. the prime minister said today i

think-- and the president, both-- indicated there were no plans and did not think it visible to support a military action in syria against the government. >> obviously, what's happening in syria is horrific, and i hope those responsible will be held to account and the reach of the international law is long and we should be documenting what's going on. the question is what can we do to stop it? again, as with iran, there is the isolation of the regime, the diplomatic isolation of sanctions. people will look to see if there are military options. i will say this-- there are differences. we live in the real world and just because you can't interfere and intervene everywhere doesn't mean you can't intervene somewhere. we chose in libya to do that. in syria, we have these problems. there is not united international opinion. we do not have united nations cover for any action. russia is holding out against that. that's-- you know, we might as

well acknowledge that. that's a real problem. second, the nature of the syrian opposition is more disparate than it was in libya. libya the opposition came together in a unified way. it was very easy to deal with. it's much more complicated, the situation in syria. what we don't want to do is fuel a civil war which would make the whole situation much worse. and finally, syria is a much tougher military nut to crack, frankly, than libya was. again, we might wish it were otherwise but that is a fact as well. not having the legal cover. the military options being much more difficult. the actual rebellion itself being more complicated in the sense than it was in libya-- these are all, unfortunately, factors we have to deal with. but we should be absolutely clear that our objective is to get a transition away from-- the president and the prime minister were saying today is that rather than fueling civil war and rebellion, revolution what, we really want to do now is achieve that transition to a post-assad

regime and appeal -- >> through the united nations? >> i think the with united nations and the arab league with-- they appointed kofi annan to do this work. we have seen some signs of the people in the syrian region as well saying hang on. what are we doing here? where is assad leading us? and are we going to be-to-held responsible for the crimes of the government? >> rose: it seems that the united states and great britain are on the same page in terms of the withdrawal leading to a 2014 point in which the future of afghanistan will be dependent on the afghan government with some kind of support. >> well, both american and british soldiers have made extraordinary sacrifices in afghanistan for many, many years. and what is our objective? why are we there in afghanistan?

we're there because of what happened on 9/11. how afghanistan was a haven for terrorists. if we can get to a place where the afghans can look out for their insecurity, the job will be -- >> any evidence we can get there? >> i think there is some evidence that the afghan security forces are much greater number than they were. they're much more capable in number than they were. the incidents are actually much it's incidences of violence are greatly down from where they were two or three years popping the u.s. and u.k. are absolutely the two biggest military components of the operation there in afghanistan. at one in saying, that we want to transition to afghan control, by the end of 2014, the u.k. will not have troops in a combat role. we will not be there in the numbers that we're in today. but we will have left behind stronger afghan national forces, whether the army or the police. and we will have left behind an enduring relationship with the afghan people in terms of aid

and training and support which frankly was very different from what happened in the 1980s, where after it fueling the mujahideen defeated the sovietes, the west left. weep mustn't leave afghanistan, and those diplomatic and training relationships must remain. >> rose: not troops. >> but the any troops i'm afraid, there comes a point when afghanistan much of the take responsibility for their own security. afghanistan is doing that, and i think we will reach the point by the end of the 2014 we will not number that combat role. >> rose: i want to you sum up the special relationship-- clearly it's a special relationship and it goes back to it churchill and roosevelt. do we have any major differences? >> i don't think we do. i've just been at a lunch that hillary clinton was hosting at the state department after the events at the white house this morning. and she made an interesting

observation that when you sit around the cabinet room in the white house as we were doing this morning with the british delegation, it's almost like sitting around the cabinet table with the american cabinet. >> rose: you see the world the same. >> we see the world in a very similar way and we don't have disagreementes, major disagreements -- there are issues that come up, but the big issues facing the world, we see very, very similarly on those things. it's an essential-- i think the word "essential" is a good one. it's an essential relationship. it's a very powerful economic relationship which we don't often talk about but actually we are the largest investors in each other's countries and we sustain millions of jobs on either side of the atlantic through that relationship. but it's also foreign policy and security relationship. it is born out of a shared sense of our history and the ideas that helped create the united states of america. but it is also through-- investment of our countries'

investment in the future. what is triking when you see the president and prime minister talking together, that the as strong as their relationship is between david cameron and barack obama, if we were all here in 50 years' time, 100 years' time, we would again be talking about the strong relationship between an american president and british prime minister. the personalities are strong and relationships are strong but it's not just about personalities. it's about enduring interests -- >> and values. >> and values. the values that shaped the american republic, born out of a revolution and a rebellion against the british are actually also the values that have shaped britain. thank you for coming. >> thank you. >> rose: "wit," the pulitzer prize-winning play by margaret edson had its debut in 1998. if kathleen charles font starred in the play. it was turned to a television movie starring emma thompson. now for the first time "wit" is

on broadway ben brantley of the "new york times" calls the production inescapably moving. joining me is lin, the director of the "wit," and cynthia nixon, the star of the play. i am pleased to have them here at this table for the first time. welcome, welcome, welcome. it really is an honor for me to have you here. >> thank you. >> rose: and thank god it's coming. tell me who vivian is as you saw her? >> she is a titan walking among mortals. or at least that's what she thinks. she is a very accomplished, very celebrated scholar of john dunn, 17th century poetry, and she-- we don't find out almost anything about her personal life, although it seems fairly solitary, and we encounter her in the throes of stage four metastatic ovarian cancer diagnosis. and she feels like any challenge she's ever had in her life before, she has risen to it and

risen above it. and this is -- >> she can do this, too. >> and this is going to be no different. and the hardest stuff you've got to throw at her, go ahead and throw at her. she'll catch it and throw it right back. >> rose: what is the challenge you have to direct this, once you have a great actress? >> the truth is, there is no challenge. the combination of a great play and a great actress is one of those gifts that directors long for. and there's a challenge, certainly, in countering a great play, and it's an exciting challenge. but i think in terms -- >> broadway in the movies. there were other kinds of adaptations. >> i wondered about that part because the play had been done, and it had been performed and there is that sense of, well, we're going to do it now for the first time on broadway. but i think once cynthia said yes, i had a deep sense of relaxation in my soul that we would find a way to create this and to work on this modern masterpiece, really, in a deep

and important way and a funny way. >> rose: how do you tell it's a masterpiece? >> i think you read this play and it's very deceptive because it seems to be about cancer but it's really not about cancer. it's about transformation, and it's about its things that great plays are about, which is how someone does overcome obstacles and does prevail and finds redemption. these are very basic things. and has some laughs along the way. >> rose: and discovers truth. >> absolutely. >> rose: how would you define what it's about? >> i think-- well, if you look at what is spoken about most in the play, cancer and cancer treatment is spoken about a lot, and very highfalutin english literature is spoken about a lot. but it's not really about either of these things. it's really-- it's really-- it's a kind of, as lynnes saying, a classic story like "scrooge" or "king lear." it's a person who thinks they have life figured out.

thinks they're better than everybody and can order everyone around and everyone else is an idiot at their beck and call, and they are brought low and they are amazed to find when they are brought low, you know, as king lear rediscovering his love for his daughter, vivian discovers friendship and warming and the just the joy of having a friend. >> rose: you buy this notion that you come into life naked and you leave life naked. >> absolutely, absolutely. and i think that there are a lot of distributions along the way that we forget-- we forget where we've come from and we forget where we're going. >> rose: and we forget what in the end is most important. >> yes. particularly if our lives are going well, often, ironically. that's thing is vivian is a person who is lacking in empathy and lacking in kindness because she's so successful. >> rose: and so busy. >> and so busy and superior she doesn't feel like she has to be any of those things.

>> rose: it's always been to me interesting that it takes this kind of thing, for most people-- >> absolutely. we don't change until we have to. we don't want to change. >> it's almost like the idea of 9/11, isn't it the? that something happens and suddenly people got nicer. >> yes. >> you know. on my way here, i was thinking about the idea of greeks going to the theater and wanting to see plays about people who have hubris, some tragic flaw. that's what is in this play, the idea of this hubris, to think you are above other people and that it takes an event to happen to say, wait a minute. >> rose: this is also about it it being sick in the sense you understand what it's like to be in a hospital and you understand who genuinely gets your own loneliness and everything else, and who is insensitive to it. >> i think in the sense of the hospital, serves as a sense, in a warning of reducing our false

sense of power, that we have power and control in our lives, and when one is in a hospital, of course. >> rose: you surrender control. >> we are bound by the hierarchy in a hospital. >> but i think the thing also about a hospital sucan see know-- a woman i know who had-- went through some serious serious cancer, she talked about how she was the girl in the gown. no matter how sophisticated or witty or important she might have been in her real life, all of a sudden she was just a girl in a gown. and the thing is, when you're a patient, you just do foal a little bit bit like a number unless somebody handles you so well. and you see all these people rushing around-- doctors and nurses and technicians-- and they're still in that thing of life but you're not. and you're not one of them. and there is just safe dividing line even though you're right there in the same room together every day but there is a dividing line. they are still in the world and you are something else. >> rose: is the hospital

character here-- >> i think hospital cult sura character. >> rose: roll tape. this is a scene in which vivian, played by cynthia, talks about her cancer, how it affects one's sense of time. >> you cannot imagine how time can be so still. it hangs. it weighs. and yet there is so little ofit. it goes so slowly, and yet it is so scarce. if i were writing this scene, it would last a full 15 minutes. i would lie here, and you would sit there. not to worry.

brevity is the soul of wit. ( laughter ) >> rose: she's funny, too. >> she's very funny all the time. >> we talk so much about that keep. >> yeah, yeah. we've done it a lot of different ways, yeah. >> you got it. >> rose: the author of this margaret edson, she only wrote one play. you're just struck by that. >> yes, we are all struck by the fact that she only wrote one play, and i'm determined to get her to write another play. >> rose: i bet you're not the first. >> no, but i'm very determined. >> rose: does she talk to people about the play? >> yes. >> rose: she's a teacher in atlanta, right? >> she is. >> but she's taught kindergarten for the majority of her career. now she's teaching fifth grade? >> civics. >> civics, right. >> rose: she's capable of change. >> she is. i think she's very interested, as vivian is, in punctuation. she gives lectures on punctuation. she is a fascinate person in

that she has written such a tremendously powerful, completely original play, and you can tell how hard she's worked on it. i mean, i think she wrote it for years and got a lot of feedback, because every moment is just earned and perfect and-- >> sculpted. >> yeah. >> she was telling me the other day on the phone when she first wrote the play there's a moment in the play where cynthia as vivian says now is the time for kindness, and mage and i were talking about this. she said, "when i first wrote it i had the words 'kindness, support, love," there were about five things, and apparently when she was doing the first production, maybe it's time to get really simple and choose one thing. >> rose: when she wrote the play it was because of what? why was she driven to write the play? >> what she said to me is she was trying to work out something for herself. and once are you in inside the play and close to the player,

you see that, a person really trying to work out how to get through a place-- to a place in yourself of peace. and i think -- >> so this was her katharthsis as well as her journey? >> i think there's a lot of vivian in her. >> rose: how much vivian is in you? >> there's a lot of vivian in me. >> rose: what is it? >> i think somebody who feels like their strong suit is their mind. they lead with their mind. but i think-- you know, invest san is a very solperson. i'm a very married person with three children and lots of friends and people in my house all the time so that's very different. but i think vivian and i also share a kind of wasp, machismo, if you will. >> rose: a lot of your life has been public. >> yeah. >> rose: there's a sense of you are confident and you are

strong and, you know, you basically make your decisions and say this is what diand this is why i'm doing it and whether it's about sexuality or whether it's about why you choose what roles you do, whatever journey there is in your life. >> i think vivian in her smaller world thinks she is far, far more famous than i would ever think i am. you know what i mean. >> rose: she is a teacher, a scholar. >> she is a superstar in her world. and she's so lost in her world. her small world is so enormous to her that she at one point is talking to the audience about what she's going to do now that she has this cancer diagnosis so she's going to read up on cancer and she turns to the audience and says completely seriously, "is anyone doing research on cancer?" because english lit, she jut lives in the world of english lit, where she is the god. >> rose: show me a problem and i'll solve it. >> show me a conundrum and i will dangle it in front of you

and twirl it on its head and dazzle you null realize you don't know anything i know everything. >> rose: i'm going to skip one of the ordered scenes to a scene where she shares a laugh with her nurse, suzy. while they get that together tell me who suzy is. >> suzy is the anti-vivian and vivian is the anti-suzy. views sea person who is used to dealing with spain death and pod s and human stuff. right from the beginning she's warm and empathetic and treats her well because she's another human being not because she's important. and vivian bristles against what she sees as phony and overly warm-- she's not very smart. she's just friendly. in the end she becomes vivian's great friend and the triumph -- >> why does she become vivian's

best friend? >> because vivian identifies with her doctors and she feels she's part of her treatment, and what she comes to realize is her doctors have done the best they can for her, but at a certain point, she has become a guinea pig. and she should-- she should stop identifying with her captors, and she should instead listen to the very wise, experienced nurse who says, "when your heart stops, you might want to be do not resuscitate rather than coming and shocking you and putting you on a million machines and going-- and living but in a way that no one could call life. >> and she's also the good mother saying, "but it's your choice." >> it's your choice but i want to be honest with you and also your life has been all about striving and making the hard choice and the challenge, and maybe you've met the challenge, and maybe it's time to say, "i'm done." >> rose: another roll tape. here it is. >> i just-- this will have a

soporific effect. >> i don't know about that, but it sure does make you sleepy. ( laughter ) >> what's so funny? what? >> it's just-- it sufficientorific means sleepy. >> it does? well, that's pretty dumb. >> no, no, no! it was funny. >> year, i guess so. in a dumb sort of way. ( laughter ) i never would have gotten it. i'm glad you explained it. >> i'm a teacher. >> rose: there you go. the decision on the cap? >> the color or to wear the cap at all? >> rose: both. >> well, margaret states it very

clearly in her script -- >> so you're following the text. >> absolutely following the text. and it is a sort of funny thing. as a performer you shave your head and you only get to see that actually bald head for maybe two minutes at the end of the play, but it's worth it. and in some ways it's-- you know, builds dramatic suspense. what does it really look like under there. for warming and the for modesty or whatever you want to call it. >> quirkiness, too. >> yeah. and we tried different colors, but in the end, it seemed like the red really-- because i'm in sort of blue, and if it was a blue hat, too, washed out enough, a little red to send that face out there, i think. >> wine color. >> rose: you both lived with cancer? >> i'm a cancer survivor. >> rose: yeah. >> many years. >> yes, me, too, me, too. >> rose: does that inform this in any way? >> i don't think so, personally. i mean, i would say that-- i'll let lynne speak-- we obviously had different experience. we're different people --

>> both breast cancer. >> :oth breast cancer. >> rose: >> and this is ovarian clearance. >> this is ovarian cancer found at a very late stage. my cancer small, i had a lumpectly, and raid station i'm on tamoxifen, which i might be going off this year. but to me, chemois a great dividing line, and i did not go through any chemo. >> rose: why is it a dividing line? >> i think that-- look, my cancer wasn't fun. i'm not trying to say my cancer was fun, but my cancer was fairly minor. i think if you-- the people that i know that are going through and have gone through chemo, it can be really, really arduous, to say the least. so i would say, to me, i feel like i-- vivian's cancer, i had maybe a great, great, great, great grandson of the kind of cancer that vivian had. but people that i know who have died of cancer, or survived and gone through really arduous

cancer, i draw on them more than my own experience, and two very good friends of mine who died of aids, i saw that happen, and i draw on that a lot more than my own fairly minimal cancer experience. >> i think what drew me to the play was the character of vivian, more than the idea of cancer. given-- i certainly had my own experience with cancer that was very different from vivian's. just the fact that i'm here today means my experience was different. i also had an amazing relationship with the doctor named larry norton who was one of the great scientists -- >> i know who he is. >> and a great humanitarian. so my personal experience was different. bit i think to the extent that i believe that cancer can be an opportunity and a chance and even can be a gift to learn things about yourself and about

life, i think there's that sense for me of doing the play was a very powerful experience. >> rose: when do both of you think you knew the lessons that vivian learned at the end? do you think you knew that when you were-- >> i think there are lessons that you learn over and over and over. and just because you've learned them doesn't mean you're not going to have to learn them again in the first next-- next five minutes. >> right. >> i think, you know, feeling like you're busy and important and short with people or know-- or why-- "didn't you hear what i said!" you know, whether it's a stranger on the street or whether it's your spouse at home, i feel like that kind -- >> you relearn that all the time. >> you relearn-- >> if you're lucky. >> yeah. >> rose: i'm just trying to evening there is some way people could come to the conclusion, the realization that we all should know but don't. everybody says, "smell the roses." and we know we should smell the roses. >> isn't that called

enlightenment. >> it's interest aring that cynthia used the word wise. it's a play about wisdom and understanding that wisdom comes in lots of different forms and shapes and people and we tend to judge sometimes about wisdom can only come from this source or that source. >> and wisdom could be a lot simpler than you think it is. but just because it's simple it doesn't mean it's easy. >> rose: i want to show you an interview with margaret edson about the play and what she wanted to express. >> the fun thing about writing for me, when i felt i really had something to say, there was something i wanted to say with this play, and that's what made the writing of it fun. >> rose: what was that? >> i wanted to talk about a person's relationship with grace. >> rose: grace? >> uh-huh. >> rose: meaning? >> meaning the flow of harmony in and out of her life. her relationship with god. and her growing awareness of her

own self as a person way soul and a capacity for love. and the best way to talk about that was to show a person who had none of those attributes. and to show her gradually coming into them. some people it happens chronologically, as they get older, and in this person, it happened in the opposite way with this character, that as she went into decline as a person, as her powers were taken away from her, she began to understand grace more full le. >> rose: much success. so great to see you. "wit--" >> will be on million march 17. st. patrick's day. >> rose: thank you. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org