tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with the former u.s. army captain about his perilous experience on the pakistani border. it's gut-wrenching text is called "outlaw platoon." he is now pursuing a ph.d. in clinical psychology. we are glad you joined us on the "outlaw platoon." >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with

your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. sean parnell's output was known on the border. he received a purple heart and two bronze stars. his book is called "outlaw platoon," now a "the new york times" best seller.

first book, new york times best- seller. good >> i feel so blessed. tavis: before i go inside the book, let me start by asking, you seem to be very grateful by the fact that your platoon never kill a single civilian. you killed 350 others, but never killed a civilian. i want to juxtapose that with the news of this military service man who apparently lost it and went on a rampage, killing six teen afghanistanis and children. having endured what you went through, you see how that could happen. what would lead one to snap?

>> i could definitely see how it could happen. it does not excuse the horrific nature of it, but fighting a counter insurgency is really difficult and can be very frustrating. you do not know who your enemy is, but we did pride ourselves on never hurting or killing a civilian during our time there. every mission was our humanitarian mission. we care and tried desperately to show the afghan people we care about them. we brought food, water, medicine on every single patrol. it was not just about finding the enemy but about taking care of the people, so it is hard for me to see what is happening. tavis: i wonder if you or your friends are surprise that does not happen more often. >> it is surprising it does not happen more often, but i think

we do have the best army and the world and the best leaders to ensure things like this do not happen. this is an isolated incident. it is one person out of 100,000 people in afghanistan, and it is so unfortunate and sad. tavis: did you feel like the military did it good enough john -- a good enough job to give you the training to avoid feeling something that would push you in a direction you did not want to go? >> we trained for combat together collectively as a unit. we trained to kill as a collective whole, and we fought as a collective whole, and the problem for a lot of veterans is everybody goes separate so i am not sure the

military is where it needs to be for us returning home, and i think we can do better helping our soldiers reintegrate into society. as far as combat is concerned, i think we are where we need to be. >> you mentioned how you wanted the afghanistan the people to know you did respect them, that you were not there to harm them. i am trying to juxtapose that with what happened to you on your first stay in afghanistan, when an afghan they beat around -- now afghan baby girl dies in your arms. this is your first stay pure good >> -- your first day. >> my first day we flew into a zone but was under fire and led amongst a group of playing kids

in a playground just west of a forward operating base and killed and wounded several children, and so much for easing into what combat is like. i ran down to the gate. i was trying to help. i saw this argument between soldiers and the interpreter and parents on the afghan side of the gate, and they were yelling and screaming about st. the boy's first, and there were several girls in the back -- treat the boys first, and there were several girls in the back bleeding and dying, and i could not wrapped my mind around it, so we overrule their argument and grab several decades and started running, and i looked down and i was holding a little girl. i started feeling a witness, and i saw that her leg was missing -- feeling a wetness, and i saw

her leg was missing. she died, and it is something i will have to live with the rest of my life, and a part of me died the first stage their pure gut -- the first day there. tavis: you go on to tell the story but thought interpreter ended up being killed, and you came upon him in one day. good >> we do not talk enough about the sacrifice interpreters make to help us. often they are ostracized by their own tribes and communities for helping americans. they can never be completely trusted by local afgani, and they are never a fully trusted by of either, so they are a prisoner of this cultural divide. abdul was one of those people, and he ended up being assassinated for helping us, and i found his body on the side of the road.

tavis: i want to jump ahead to another story, where there is an interpreter who ends up being a mole, and because of his activity, one of the guys in your platoon and of getting killed -- ends up getting killed, and you come up to him and say, i could kill you. i raise about story, because it was fascinating to read. i was fascinated by how you alternated in your own spirit and your own soul, about your own humanity in relation to other people. at some point in the book, you are concerned about your own brethren and whether or not they have lost their humanity. at other points, you want to kill somebody out of your own pain and anguish and

frustration. you admitted his combat experience took some of your humanity almost every day. you can tell the story about the interpreter and your friend getting killed, but i want you to talk about your own back-and- forth struggle with your own humanity. >> you hit the nail on the head. that is what i dealt with and what every soldier and dealt with. how do you maintain humanity in an environment that is hostile and inhumane. it is something every soldier deals with, and with every engagement, more of your few manatee burns away and dies. gardner and -- more of your humanity burns away and dies. part of trying to survive is asking yourself can shawn the human a coexist with not a

warrior region w-- with the warrior. tavis: what is your process? >> i do a lot of reflection, and i have two kids and an amazing wife who saved me from a lot of difficulty. i was in a dark place when i got home, but i know those aspects will never be back. they are gone forever, but when i looked in the eyes of my children, i see the same aspect in them, the innocence that still exists, and that is how i unified whole. i reconcile about every day by looking in their eyes. tavis: and we hear a lot about ptsd, and they end up having flashbacks about when they were

in iraq or afghanistan. you tell a story about flashbacks while you were there. >> i wrote a book, and i tried to give the reader a sense of what was going through my mind at some of the most trying times of my life, and my mind would drift in these extraordinary, horrific combat situations to home, and i think that is how i anchored myself to reality. that is how i maintain my sanity by a during myself to what was ordinary, going to a baseball game or watching my cousin open christmas presents, or imagining whether this assisted would end up with me being killed and an army unit -- whether this would end up with me being killed. a whole book is laced with what

is happening now in combat and what i was thinking that led me to make decisions in specific instances, because i think that introspection helps americans understand what their lawyers go through for them, and for me i think there is a social component to posttraumatic stress. i think the war years joined up to serve their country, to protect -- warriors joined to serve their country and protect society, and when they come home, that mentality is the same, and when they are sitting around with their buddies drinking and i tell them about the little girl dying in my arms, it is of was killed, and the atmosphere dies down common -- it is a buzz kill, and the atmosphere dies down, so a soldier keeps it inside of him. in the interest of protecting everyone inside -- protecting

everyone outside of him, a warrior keeps its inside. it starts to keep him -- eat him. i think the way that happens is people just saying, i can never understand what you went through, but teach me what it was like. i can listen, and i think that is where we need to be. tavis: i like your suggestion that we can help by bearing witness. when you say bearing witness, that means and what? >> i think just being willing to hear about the difficult side of combat. again tavis: we do not want to hear that. this is a bush administration decision. we do not want to see bodies returned. and we live in a time when nobody wants to hear that.

nobody wants to wrestle with this reality, so i hear your point. we do not want to do that why do you think that is the case? >> americans like their isolated existence the book is not political. i think one of president bush's biggest mistakes was when this war started to say the american military has this. this will not affect your life. our military has this for you, and he gave the american people a reason to say this is not my fight, so what we have now -- i do not think that was intentional, but i think what we have now is a society where the american military is at war and the american populace is not, so to heal the rift it starts with american society asking what it

was like. we need to so moralistic value judgments and just listen, and you can never understand. just listen. that is where it starts. but is where we have to get to. we have hundreds of thousands of combat veterans in the united states that are suffering, and these wars are going to end, and we have to be ready to receive these people at home. we have to. tavis: you tell a story in the book of the number of people either lost or wounded in your platoon, so the number is 80%. 80% of your platoon either died or were wounded. how does that make you feel as a leader? that seems like a high number. maybe i did not know the numbers compared to other platoons, but you situate that for me. >> we lost a man, and that is

something -- that is something i will have to deal with for the rest of my life. it is a soldier i loved and cared about dearly. i loved and cared about all of my men, and i existed to serve them. any good leader does that, at least in military. a good leader serves the men, not the other way around, so i'll live with the decisions i made that led to my soldiers getting wounded every day. anybody that has been in combat or had to make a decision in that burden for the rest of their lives. this comes with the territory. this is interesting. i do not think the military does enough to communicate that point too young leaders in training. tavis: you were how don't?

>> 24. i was playing video games in college thing here before. guard -- in college the year before. i went from that to being in charge of 40 men, their families, and their lives. a lot of officers go to west point because they liked the idea of service for their country, or they go to rotc because it pays for their school, but i do not think the army does a good enough job of saying when you look in the eyes of your men, they are relying on you and their families are relying on you to bring them out alive, bring them out of a horrible situation alive, all the while understanding they might not come out alive, so there is that a dynamic, and it is something i do not think we do enough to communicate the gravity of the situation to our

young leaders. tavis: the book is not political. i want to ask you about it, because it is not a political book, but when you are in afghanistan, and you have time for this, or does this happen when you retire and come home -- of what point do start processing what happens? you are there to serve the american people. i get all about. the american chief says, you guys follow. you do what you are supposed to do, but when did you take time to process when you were told to do? >> it happens the entire time you are there. we are embedded in a situation in afghanistan and iraq where

technology brings information to us on the field, and sometimes it is frustrating, but when combat really started heating up, it becomes about the man next to you, and when that first bullet snap's by your head, it is about getting out alive. this is something soldiers deal with and talk to one another throughout combat deployment, but i think when you come home, that is renew really start processing -- that is when you really start processing and what did we accomplish. we fought in the south, and we lost men fighting for this small section of territory in afghanistan, and right after we left, that land was seated back to the taliban, so what did we

believe and die for that land for? that is what you think about as a warrior back in the states trying to reconcile what was happening on the ground with the political situation, and it is frustrating. it is something every four year deals with your good -- every warrior deals with. tavis: have your views about war changes? >> i hate war, and i never want to go back. i made sure it was clear that i was scared, and a lot of the warriors region one or two things happen. either they have to go back, and then there are guys like me who think, my nine lives are up, and i do not even like taking the bus, because it might wreck, and it is a risk.

that war crosses my mind every day, and what we are charging the sons and daughters of america with every day crosses my mind, and the horrific things they are entering, literally it is on my mind every day. i do not know how i will get rid of it. tavis: speaking of your mind, you came home because you had a brain injury. looking at you, i could not tell you had a brain injury. tell me about that. >> i have six closed head injuries over 45 days. i had three in one engagement within the course of an hour i had a spontaneous cerebrospinal column ileak. i deal with that every single day. sundays are better than other --

some days are better than others. sundays i cannot even get out of bed. -- some days i cannot even get off of head. i have been dealing with this for the past six years. it is interested when i talked to under a psychologist who said the same thing. i would -- when i talked to a who said thegist same thing. i would not have known. sometimes i will drive to the grocery store, and a bad day i will forget where i was going. i will call my wife and say, what was i doing? where was i going? i still deal with it every day. tavis: this cannot make studying for your ph.d. you easy.

how is that coming along? >> is coming. i just got my master's. i love the program. i was medically retired from the army. if you cannot serve the mission, get out of the way of the train. that is the army, so i was medically retired. i wanted to make sure i was doing my best to serve the american society and soldiers, so i thought the best way would be to get a ph.d. in psychology, and the second wave is coming, and it is going to be our soldiers coming home, and i want to be in the front for them just like there was in the front fighting against our enemies, ready to help them. that is why i got into it. i still have four years left with a third of the pay of a medical student.

tavis: what does all of this mean for you as a father and a host and, -- and husband? we are seeing people get reunited safely with their families. what does this mean for you? >> there is a line from we were soldiers that i really like. it is, hopefully being good at one makes me better at the other, and i have a lot of faults, and i suffer a lot. i suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, and i think it is important for leaders in the army to communicate that, so for me to admit i am suffering, it makes it ok for young privates to say, i am suffering, too, so i love my wife

and my kids, and i will live for them, and that is how i get by. called the book is "outlaw platoon." already on "the new york times" best seller list, and i cannot do justice to this book in a 25 or 30 minute conversation, so you might have to get this, and i cannot do justice to it. my apologies to you. it was an honor to have you here. that is it for our show. until next time, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley.

join me next time thiwith dr. mk hyman and macy gray. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. >> be more. pbs. pbs.