tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. the white house of balls around a fundamental debate about how to handle evolve -- evolves around a fundamental debate about how to handle the economy. democrats begin making their case about the economy's next week in charlotte. we are glad you joined us for the conversation with ben stein. but dr. king said there is always the right time to do the right thing. right thing. by doing the right thing. to completely eliminating hunger and we have work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out.

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: always pleased to welcome then signed, the noted economist and author out in -- to welcome ben stein, the noted economist and author. his new book is called "how to really ruin your financial life and portfolio." how are you? >> busy. always better to be busy van unemployed. >> every study i have seen

suggests while mr. romney has been hammering the issue of how much better he will be on the economy than is mr. obama, it has not pulled him close enough in the battleground states. >> he is not close enough at all. >> the economy as the most important issue. it seems counter intuitive to me. it was the most important issue, but it is not throwing them any closer. they have still got plenty of time to turn himself around into a winning candidate, but at this point he is a losing candidate. the economy is a giant issue. there are too many unemployed, to many fear being unemployed. too many are losing their

houses. too many are terrified about unemployment, but mr. romney does not have a plan to turn things around. all the is saying is mr. obama said he had unplanned and he did not. mr. obama said he was going -- said he had a plan, and he did not. does mr. romney have a better plan? if he does, we have not seen heit. >> they have said governor romney will have his own economic plan. when might they put that out? >> they better put it out soon. i think mr. romney is a hard- working guy, a solid citizen, but he has thought into what i think is a bit of nonsense about supply side economics. he has bought into the idea that by cutting taxes used for the

economy. that would be wonderful if true, but there is no doubt it is trooprue. what seems to happen is you might have some sort of the economy, but the deficit keeps getting bigger. we have an economic plan that was suggested by rahm eighth and not yet put in concrete that is based on a premise that is unproven. it is a delightful premise. supply side is delightful. it would be a wonderful thing if it is true, but there is no doubt it is true. >> where is the plan? didn't we try supply side in the reagan years? >> supply side and trickle-down are not the same. supply side says if you cut taxes on everyone, which reagan did, people will work much

harder. there will be productivity, and the economy will grow. revenues fell dramatically in the first year, so every year after the reagan raised taxes. this is something the republicans and i -- i have never voted for a democrat and i do not plan to. they have forgotten the dragon, who is the guiding light, raise -- forgotten reagan, the guiding light, raise taxes. i am not sure of this idea, but certainly supply side is the way to spur the economy so much of revenue has not worked. will it spur the economy? we have low income tax rates. it does not seem to be working.

we have high income rates in the 1960's. we have breathtakingly high end of world war ii years when we prosperity. tavis: you said a few minutes ago mitt romney is running a losing campaign. >> so far. tavis: ben you said you will never vote for a democrat. you have not heard what mr. obama said. >> i will tell you why i have never voted for a democrat. to me the number one issue is right to life, and i do not think the democrats are good on that issue. if they would change even to a position like mr. clinton in that abortion should be safe and very rare, i would give it more thought, but people think of

abortion as a reasonable method of birth control are never going to get my vote. another position is the fence, and mr. romney says he is for a much bigger net -- another positioned is defense, and mr. romney says he is for a much bigger defense budget. >> you want to increase the defense budget? it is outsized already. >> it is outside compared to what other countries then. we were barely able to fight two small wars in iraq and afghanistan. what would we do if we had to fight a big war? iran has of the army. -- a big army. what if they invaded saudi arabia? we seem to have and a good military, but a large number goes to pensions and as jobs. the actual cutting edge of our military is not that large.

it is very large compared to western europe or japan but not compared to the army of china or iran or no.. . if iran and north korea, by some horrible scenario got together and went to war at the same time, and one against saudi arabia and the other against saudi arabia and -- against south korean, i do not know what we would do. tavis: there is one big hole to your theory. one of those wars between iraq and afghanistan was unnecessary. it was fraudulent and should not have been done in the first place. it was not that the budget was too small. somebody lied to the american people in the first place. they spend one trillion dollars they should not have spent in the first place. >> the iraq war was a mistake, but that is done. we are out of there now, so the

question is what will we do now if we had two wars break out at the same time? the north korean are armed to the teeth, and so are the iranians. what if they launched attacks on our allies at the same time? we would have on hard time stopping them without using nuclear weapons, and i do not think we want to use nuclear weapons. i do not think there is such a thing as being too prepared to defend the interests of the united states. tavis: i think there is a notion of being too prepared. how many new see you need? how many times over the do -- how many nukes do you need? how many times over the you need to blow up the world? >> during the 1950's, we spend roughly 10% of gdp on the fence. now we spend roughly 3%, so we could afford to spend more. i do not think there is a reason to take a chance on anything involving war.

the more reason, the safer we are. i think people in the military should be paid more. i think it is criminal how little people in the military are paid. these are people risking their lives, taking away from their family. >> the more we spend upbraided to the better we would see, we would not have been hit, and we were hit now in new york and the first place. it is not a matter of spending more money. >> it is not just a matter of that. part of its is a strong defense. the point is extremely well taken. we should not have been in iraq. it is questionable we should have been in afghanistan, but we have several adversaries, and we should be able to protect ourselves.

tavis: the only point is that we have more nuclear weapons than we need. we should be disarming the ones we do have. >> why should we be disarming the others and who? >> i believe it is the height of hypocrisy to tell people they cannot have them but we can. >> we are telling countries -- the only country we are telling not to have nuclear weapons is iran, and we know if they have one they will have all holocaust and wife israel off the map, so as of june and who reads it and white israel off the map, so as -- they will wipe israel off the that is ias a jew, important. they have already said, we will use nuclear weapons against

israel. absolutely we should stop them. tavis: my issue with your notion of a more financially emboldened military, so you are okay wheat selling iran what they should and should not do. >> absolutely. pakistan unbeknownst to them and took out osama bin laden. the point is what gives us the right to invade another country. another country came under cover of darkness, but it is ok to go to another country without permission. >> i think if we have a country when it had done a terrorist

mission and killed 3000 civilians, i do not think they would be surprised if the pakistanis send someone to kill them. >> i cannot imagine any circumstances under which they would allow any foreign government to invade our country to do anything. and whereas we presumably would not shelter that kind of person. this was the worst person in the world, and they were sheltering them. >> they denied that, but while they were doing that, we had normalized relationships with that country. that is another level of hypocrisy. we are going to come without your knowledge. >> if we warn them we would extradite him to the u.s., they would warn him, and he would be

hidden again. >> how has obama done in the middle east? >> he has not brought about a solution, which he said he was going to do. >> if that is your reason for not voting democrat, you cannot vote democrat or republican. >> israel is our strongest and most reliable ally in the middle east. we are their most reliable ally, too, but they humiliated netanyahu at the white house. that was outrageous, so i was not happy about that. >> netanyahu is the most aggressive, tenacious. you feel sorry for him? >> i think it is milanee -- humiliating for mr. obama to keep ahead of one of our closest allies waiting annan then tell him he is an -- and then tell him he is too busy. it is outrageous.

it is inexcusable. >> the reason i am pushing back is because the reason i am pushing back, i have seen you talk about poverty. you are going to spend more on defense while poverty is threatening our democracy. >> let me back up several steps. we have more than a enough to spend on defense if we would just have taxes at a proper level. i hate to say it. now i am going to be waylaid on the way home by my republican friends.

we tax too little. our taxes are just too low, so we do need to raise some money. i would like to see that money go to military pay but also to comprehensive training of the poor people so they can get out of poverty. i do not think we can pay people to get out of poverty. i think with enough education, before people can live themselves out. the biggest problem is we have an underclass of poor people who are living on a different planet from people like you and me. people go to the grocery store and then the checkout counter. for tens of millions of americans, they have to think carefully about every item they

buy. that is scary. we send them to private schools. they buy cars when they are 16. for many children in this country, they do not know who their parents are, and this is across the ethnic spectrum. there is a terrible poverty in the way poor people live in this country, and it seems to me that needs to be addressed. i do not see either candidate talking about it. there is a moral issue. are we going to allow our poor people to live in such terrible conditions? i do not think we can just write a check for all of them to live in beverly hills. i think we can make it possible to have education so they can change their lives. >> we are days away from where u.s. census bureau to release poverty numbers.

i suspect when they put these numbers out, which the associated press has already given us an idea that they are going to be the worst ever, romney is going to clobber president obama over the head with them. the president is going to say it could have been worse had he not been in office. four years ago when mccain and obama were running, poverty did not come up with one time. the moderator's did not ask about it. no question about what is going to happen to push poverty higher up on the agenda since neither of them is talking about if you're a good >> i do not think they are talking about it. the republicans know they will not get the votes of the non- white poor. \ the republicans know they will get the vote of the white for. the democrats will get a vote of the non-white poor.

what is the point of bringing it up? it is a moral issue, because there are so many children who do not know their fathers. now there are so many people in this country in prison. this country has more prisoners than the entire rest of the world. we have 2 million prisoners. now that is more than all the prisoners in the rest of the world. if we haves rowrong that many prisoners. another issue is the way people are treated in prison. it is a horrible issue in the united states, and i would like some effort made. a civilized society is based on how it treats its prisoners. i would like to see an issue made of that. i do not think it is going to happen. everyone is buying for the middle class and their votes and the upper middle-class and their

money, but i think it is a moral issue that we are going to have retirement crisis in which we are going to have millions of americans who are not going to be able to afford life. >> it is a moral disgrace. >> we see problems with class and race. >> america is a country that is divided along racial grounds. people will pretend it is not, but it is. america is a country divided on class lines. now people will present it is not, but if is. the republican party is the party of when a white middle class, some of our class people who -- is the party of white middle class, some upper middle

class. the democratic party who is off hold different america. you look at the democratic convention and then the republican convention. it is a different america. tavis: since you raised the issue of being jewish, we talk about israel earlier. the romney campaign is making a hard position for the jewish vote. mr. obama has not been universally embraced by the jewish community. without the jewish vote, what is going to happen? you know all the jews. i know all the blacks. you know all the jews. is it going to be contested? >> i think it will be contested,

but i think the majority will go with mr. obama. unless something dramatic is done on the republican side, unless they show criticism -- charisma, pretty much everything is going to go on the democratic side ta. tavis: did you say romney is going to lose? >> unless he pulls it together. tavis: on the long run, don't you feel like you are part of a losing party? what you said make so much sense. if they do not get it, they are done. who is going to be in your party with you? you and evangelicals? >> i think we are going to have to broaden the base with more non-whites. i think we are on the wrong side of history unless we can make changes in the party. >> it is about principle and where you stand on the issues that matter to the voters.

>> it is partly that. tavis: it is the majority. it is not about charisma. the reason you do not have a broader basis because the issues are not in line with their interests. that is not charisma. 5 i am not sure that is true. i think there is a lot of data that the likability of candidate is the key issue. there is an issue at the polls where they will ask about this issue or that issue. then when they do one-on-one polls, people vote for the same reason they vote for the student council in 12th grade. do they like him now? is he the coolest guy? in many ways this comes down to who is the cooler guy, obama or rahm they -- or romney. tavis: part of what leads to empathy is you think he gets you, based on where he stands on

the issues. you are making my point. >> maybe i am, maybe i am not. mr. obama got the overwhelming majority of the african american voters. what has he done for the african americans? >> not enough. >> not a thing. tavis: i would not say not a thing. >> he has moved a few >> to high positions. -- a few blacks to high positions. in terms of african-american teenage mothers who do not know what to do, and she is overwhelmed, what has he done? in terms of the black man in prison, there are so many black men in prison, it is a disgrace to humanity. what has he done for them? tavis: i do not disagree at all, but the ultimate question for black voters is how is romney

going to make life better? we are done. >> i do not think either of them cares. it reminds me of a long time ago when people ask what margaret thatcher was going to do about the poor in england, and he said, ignore them. tavis: the book is called "how to really ruin your financial life and portfolio." may be will come back. we talk about some real stuff. thanks for watching, and keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with actress kyra sedgwick of the conclusion of her hips serious is nextser hear " that time. we will see you then. >> there is a saying that dr. king had that said there is always the right time to do the right thing. i try to live my life every day by doing the right thing. we know that we are only halfway to completely eliminating hunger and we have work to do.

walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. >> be more. pbs. pbs.