this moment fragile. >> rose: because of its economy but because oif its inability to have -- >> because of poet. >> -- because of both. >> rose: talk about the politics first. >> you have this political aggregation that have an unexpected success because of the crises of the parties. and -- the five star movement exploited this. and now because there was a division among the existing party, we are the stalemate. but i am not desperate of that because it happen in many occasions, many european counties. i think you have to let the sand departed and to wait the water become clear.

and some temporary solution will be found. >> rose: like what? >> like some sort of as we call it, government of the president that say the government who have the majority evaluating case by case, or you know, with some temporary agreement. one of these solution will be found, another to let the situation calm down. >> rose: so here you have, look at this. you have, mr. berlusconi getting 25% of the vote. >> yes. >> rose: a comedy mr. grilo had 20 percent poster of the vote. mr. berlusconi is a comedian and the other person is a comedian. that's 50% of the vote. >> i'm the person that should not talk -- twice and he's

always lost in the elections. but you know, he made the campaign. it's the same man. not only telling you i shared the -- but i skhul give back the tax you have paid last year. it's unbelievable. but in the moment of economic crises quite a few -- but look, he lost a big percent of the vote -- because he had a very strong majority that passed. and then he lost a lot of votes but he was able to give the illusion that it could be the savior in such a difficulty economic condition. >> rose: who will, what's going to happen to mr. monti

with the vote. >> it's with -- but it still in politics. i don't know what he will choose. he will take time in order to reorganize the party. it will be almost impossible that he will be prime minister again unless he prolonged it for a limited time. >> rose: he does not have enough votes to make a it. >> but the two chambers had the same power. they're identical so you need the confidence vote in both of them. this is why you read some sort of compromise let's saying organize by the public. >> rose: what did you want.

>> i want personally? i was -- i a happy for the result of the elections but i am not active in the italian politics so i look -- hoping for a resolution very soon, you know. >> rose: you really believe there will be a solution soon? >> yes. it will be a temporary solution say not for five years but there will be a solution. >> rose: turning to the euro, what's going to happen to the euro zone. >> the euro zone it's at the end of july but when the two three counties -- italy is lucky we're still a strong industry and experts know that very well

consumptions are going down. this is not a certainty because we export well, competition is not bad but because of our -- the internal demand is collapsing. and this is absolutely out of any let's say -- >> rose: so how do you increase internal demand? >> well, one bit we can do because we are safe from the european regulation on deficit, you know. and so we can't give -- but even more i hope i do push that germany and other european countries they give -- it is difficult to understand foreign economies. the germans has a big sur plus in trade balance. enormous, not big.

they have zero growth. and they have no inflation. why don't they stimulate the economy. because of political problems. actually they hesitate but i think that in some way it's german interest and european interest and we need it -- even more -- >> rose: how do you see the u.s. economic recovery. >> better than i was afraid. the last two weeks it was good news. i do hope we go on because when they employ the statistics in the united states, i, you know, i tend to think that we've gone. >> rose: do you think, do europeans admire president obama? >> yes. >> rose: because? >> well, because it shows a

symbol of change and novelty. of course they love, they were more in love with the first election than with the second. but still because it's always happening politics. but still more of them another case, you know. there's some sort of familiarity, you know. despite we cannot say -- were the most let's say american president the most interested in europe because it was no, it was far away from europe you know. but he didn't studied in europe, he was not -- >> rose: he spent his time in asia. >> but he's left. >> rose: you're an economist and you come from that issue rather than foreign policy. but you were at the european commission. what does the world do about

syria and a war that seems to be becoming almost like lebanon. >> well, now there's agreement between russia and security council, chinese -- and so i don't think that -- can be made. i am testing this thinking that let us consider war now. we go on still for a while. >> rose: for a while. >> yes. i don't see a solution. this is what. even if some progress was done last week here in rome -- was working on trying to move the situation. there is not yet everything that is needed. >> rose: i assume you know john kerry. >> yes. i met the first time in europe

and i was happy. i was happy because he was flexible. and he you know generally cut through tapes only answer to questions, you know. he was asking, he was arguing, he was very open to the discussion. and intelligent, of course, yes. i would hope that with this human touch he will help the solution. >> rose: when you look at africa, the same economist magazine has a big story in here about africa, aspiring africa. >> yes. >> rose: you're the envoy. what is your goal? >> my goal is from say look sahel is a big area.

it's a strip 3,500 miles long from senegal to 700 miles large. but -- is very more genuous in terms of poverty, in term of drug area, in term of let's say all the malnutrition, in terms of child mortality. it's an area of africa that is not moving, you know. and so say let us type at a glance, not counted by counties in the area and link them in order to push the development. this is the long think are. of course when you have a case like mali, there is some obligation to try to help the process of let's say peace and new governments in order to have, in order to have --

>> rose: with respect to mali do you believe that the french intervention is achieving the success that it hoped to. >> to now, yes. and i honestly, i'm genuinely not -- to the war but i was in mali at that moment. and you know, the intervention was absolutely unavoidable. terrorists coming invited 2509 capitol. there was no choice. now the goals of the war -- in terms of occupying the north but the terrorists for the most part is them disappearing. and our fear is that will go to libya. >> rose: they're coming from libya too. >> well they're coming but

libya, you know. because it was always not evaluated enough -- because you have such a big area without borders and the terrorists have the best place to grow because you know there's a lot of illegal economy. because before the wars a lot of money coming from libya. then after the end of qaddafi, now you increase the trafficking, kidnapping and ransoms. other activity -- and so now you have all the society that must change in this poverty. and so the united nations job is to create some sort of

environment. and our idea is to involve local universities, local societies. and so we have the meeting in the first meeting in dakar for putting in order priorities. say agriculture, decentralizing electrical energy. that must have -- in africa the portable telephone is a big revolution because of the telephone. and then school, hospitals. but we have to start immediately there, you know. in order to bring sahel, link it to all africa. because remember that the new event in the world is that africa global speaking, not sahel is moving. if you think -- statistics of

china, but after that there's africa. >> rose: yes. low base. >> low base, of course. please don't misunderstand me. they are in terrible poverty. horrible. but when you ten years ago i should have told to you look i am desperate. now i am beginning to hope, let us say beginning to hope and so the aim of the secretary-general is to help sahel link it to other africa infrastructure and so on. on the other side we have to collect money to do it. and you have to remember this, that different from syria, afghanistan. here, you have all the security

council together because everybody is frightened by the new terrorists. so you have not let's say one day russia -- you have china, russia, united states going in the same direction. and i want to explore this is high goal and to connect then and adopt procedural very quick in order to make intervention as rapid as we can. >> rose: it's very good to see you in italy. thank you for letting me visit with you. it's very cold out here. this is beautiful. this is a tuesday and they are now in the sistine chapel and they're probably going to be voting this evening for the first time on this -- and we'll have a new pope this week. >> we'll have two weeks whether it will be black or white smoke. >> rose: there will be one vote this evening and then tomorrow they'll have more. >> more. >> rose: it's an exciting time to be in rome. i thank you for taking time.

>> thank you. and i hope you coming back. >> rose: i hope so too. romano prodi in italy. back in a moment. >> rose: jay bilas is here a college basketball alice for espn. during is 1980's he was a four year starter at duke university where he scored more than 1-points. he wrote a column that sought to define toughness in college basketball. that piece drew wide attention. it is now the basis for a book he calls toughness developing true strength on and off the court. i am pleased to have him here at this table for the first time. he's been on this program many times. welcome. why this book and what was it that resonated with people before we define toughness? >> well first my teammates will find it wildly ironic that i'm

writing about toughness. >> rose: why. >> they might not have associated that with me as a player. when i wrote that for espn.com, i heard commentators, many people like me pointing out somebody who i think maybe acted like a bully saying well that guy's a tough guy. i didn't think that's what it meant. when i wrote the article i couldn't believe the response i got. people literally from all over the world whether they were coaches, soldiers in some instances, edge indicators reached out. >> rose: because they know how tough it is. >> yes. and it length been defined before like that. at least in their judgment. and i started thinking about it that who taught you to be tough and to persevere and to be prepared and to be a great teammate. for me it was coach kay. i had examples from my life growing up but there wasn't anybody that said all right here's what toughness means. when i say we want you to be tougher and we want this team to be collectively tougher, here's what it means. >> rose: what did he say it

meant. >> coach kay? don't know if he really defined it. it became suggest learned by osmosis from being there when a ball was on the floor you didn't bend over at the waste to pick it up. you dove on it. i learned that the hard way. >> rose: my sense is more than most he understands how to get inside of you and find what will motivate you to be the best that you can possibly be. and find the toughness, find the motivation, find the drive, find you know find the spirit for victory. >> i think that's true. i think he's one of those coaches and there are others. he's not alone in that but i think he's at the top of the heap that are able to get you to do willingly what you might not want to do individually. skip rosser a former coach at lake force such a good friend of mine used to quote emerson is a friend is someone who will make you do what you can.

and i think -- >> rose: a friend is someone who will make you do what you can. >> make you do what you can. i may have paraphrased that a little bit but skip said that a lot. he said it to his team. i heard him say it a million times. coach kay is like that. he has, holds you in accountable. you're responsible to your job. you're accountable to the whole. you're accountable to the mission as the nasa engineer said in the book responsibility to the element accountable to the mission. that's the way coach kay was. you're responsible for your job but your mix was to keep the other team from scoring. for us to be in a position to win, that's your ultimate objective. >> rose: you've got ten chapters in this book to talk about particular chapters, we'll talk about those and move on to basketball. trust is number one. give me a quick definition. >> i think you have to be tough enough to hear tough things 23r your colleagues teammates and

coaches. that's your test of toughness playing for coach kay. you were held accountable for what you were supposed to do and then if you didn't do it,. >> rose: you knew. >> you knew right away. if you were corrected you were expected to act upon it in a positive way. grant hill was really influential on me in this book whenner talked about teammates have to be able to trust each other so that if the two of us are playing together and i make a mistake and you say come on jay, you've got to do what you're supposedded to do. how am i going to take that. am i going to take that that charlie's getting on me. well you do your job. are we going to get into an argument or am i saying all right, you're telling me the truth i need to get this done and we move on. >> rose: trust you'll do that. >> yes. it's also a competition thing we've gough to be able to trust each other. we'll compete going for the same job. we'll compete our tails off every day in practice. if you win the job and you're a starter am i going to sit on the bench and hope you screw up so you're going to win. that's not what tough competitors do. tough competitors won't win. we're on the same teach we're

going to fight every day and when it's time to play you go on the floor together we're going to unite and play our tails off together and i'm going to be rooting for you. i hope i go in too. i'll do my job when i get in there though i'm not going to root for you to fail so that i get a chance. that's not what competitors do. >> rose: grant hill you say is a model for overcoming adversity. >> i think so. >> rose: that's injury or what? >> everything. i mean grant's career has been remarkable in so many ways. he's an incredibly nice person. so nice and tough are not mutually exclusive but when he got the first six inquiries in the mba his numbers were such that only two other players could match them in the first six years across the board but only three bound assists alike. oscar robertson and lebron james. his first six years -- and larry bird. three players excuse me. >> rose: courage is another.

>> this kind of courage doesn't measure up to those who are in the military and face real threats, but when you step to the free-throw line and you have to hit a big free-throw. that takes some courage. and you have to be confident when you step up. how are you confident. you have to concentrate intensely and steve curt told me he. he concentrated on his routine. steve told me this story, he's a great shooter but a guy that wasn't always confident and failed at different times during his carrier. he shot a free-throw against the houston rockets one game and he thought it was perfect. form, follow through, the ball went right through the basket it was absolute perfect. and so from then on, in his routine, he had a routine that he stuck to because that was where his confidence came from before he would shoot the ball. he would say to himself houston to put himself in that situation. he had the courage to step up there and accept the consequences of the result, that i may miss, i'm going up there to make it but i may miss and i

don't care. i'll accept it because i've got the guts to go up there. i'm tough enough to go up there and accept the consequences for missing. >> rose: give me the ball. >> yes. listen, steve talked about guys like duane wade or lebron james. he seeing them struggle at times with their confidence. that's something you have to be tough enough to overcome. you can't do it by yourself. that's where your teammates and coaches come in that give you that help you with that confidence of belief. you earn the confidence so when you step to the line you know you've put the work in you've done it a million times. that's when your intense concentration and your routine allows you to be relaxed. >> rose: i'll read the rest of them. communication, persistence, next play, commitment accept shungs and self evaluation. all of things give you toughness. you said recently about ncaa basketball. it is in a crises state.

>> i believe that. i believe we're in a lot of trouble and i believe that for a period of years and i've said it before but now with what's going on in the game i think people can really see it even the most casual observers can see it. >> rose: what's going on. >> our product is not very good. the quality of play has deteriorated. there's nobody in charge. we don't have, if you have an idea for college basketball on whose door do you knock. there's nobody. there's nobody in charge. usa basketball is jerry delang low. he is in charge. decisions are made to keep up with the changing landscape of the game. usa basketball used to be run by committee like the ncaa is. now it's run by injury delang owe and look at the results. it's magnificent. >> rose: do they need a tzar in college basketball. >> i think they do, every different sport needs a commissioner and needs to be valid individually governed . we've got a game now where it's

a foul -- compose are teaching fouling because the referees can't call them on. there's no hammer over the officials to have the freedom of movement that they have, initially they've gone through at nba. they have the same problem and they fixed it. we need to fix ours. >> rose: is that through the referees. >> i think the referees do by and large a great job. they're terrific, great people and terrific professionals. but i think there's a feeling that they can't call all the fouls. charlie what's happening to basketball right now. the college basketball coaches are teaching their players to foul because they know that the referees can't call them on it. and now with everybody doing it, you're in a competitive disadvantage if you don't. and if you watch, what players are doing now and coaches are teaching is hands up, keep your hands up and attack them with your chest and your lower body. so guys going up for a shot near the basket and he's being ridden off of his ability to make that shot by being hit. >> rose: by hitting his chest. >> yes. they're bumping cutters so a guy

cuts through the lane and being wrapped up and timing is being taken out of the game. so we don't have freedom of movement. what the referees refer to is anything that, any illegal conduct, contact that impedes your rhythm speed balance and quickness is a foul. we've got a bunch of fouls that are going uncalled in these games and it's hurting the game. scoring is down to historic lows. scoring is down to areas well before the shot clock. shooting percentages are way down. there's a lot of contributing narcotics to that. players leaving early. it's part of it. the fact that the game is a little bit overcoached right now and guys are touching and holding on to balls too. the way i look at it, you can hold the ball. you can look at the clock but you can't hold your opponent that's foul. the referees are the last line of defenses. that's the thing we can fix. we can't stop players from going pro. we can't stop coaches from holding the ball and shortening games with fewer possessions. what we can do is call the fouls. if we call the fouls the players will stop fouling. if we don't call the fouls

they'll foul more. that's what's going on but who enforces that. all the officials are independent contractors. so if a supervisor or officials in one league says we're suspending you because you're not calling the foul they'll just go to another league. what do we do. >> rose: in the nba, you have -- >> they are employees. they are salaried benefit employees. so they can be suspended, they can be fined. they're going to foe the line and i think that helps the official. having a mandate protks them. in a coach gets on an official he can shrug his shoulders. i have to, i don't have a choice. you can argue all you want to but i'm accountable to my boss. right now, and this is not the official's fault. this is the administrator. this is our fault. this is sort of the guardians of the game. and we can fix it. now, it may entail all the big conferences having to pony up in a multibillion dollar business and we need to employ these officials. >> rose: bring me back to the

idea of a commission or tzar for college basketball. is anybody behind that idea. >> i think a lot of people are behind it. does it have legs is the issue. who do you go see about that. you can just say who do you go see we need a commissioner. we've got a president of the ncaa who was overseen by a group of presidents. listen we need to take basketball, basketball provides 95%, i think it might be more than 95% of all revenue through the ncaa basketball tournament. a 68 game tournament. it is gigantic property. for us not to manage it as the valuable business that it is, is almost criminal. it's just wrong. we could do so much more. >> rose: that sounds like a job for you. >> i don't think so. my views on amateurs would not be popular with the powers that be. >> rose: what are your views on amateurism. >> i look at sort of the amateur restrictions as the athlete is the only person in the universal

community that is restricting that we say you are allowed only a scholarship and that's it. no other person's told that. and i think if you put that kind of restriction on you got to have good reason. an at will you tell is not a better athlete, better student better person or teammate by his or her amateurism. i don't think the entire system peters on destruction fft at lots got more scholarship. the free market works pretty well for the rest of us and very orderly would work just fine for athletes too. if we want to restrict them we need a better reason than this is the way it's always been that's not good enough. >> rose: i've got a thousand questions. this book is called toughness developing constraint on and off the court. jay bilas espn basketball analyst, man who loves the game so much that he's criticizing where he thinks needs criticism. great to see you. >> as always. >> rose: back in a moment,

stay with us. >> rose: ma test is one of the most important described as a self assured artist who can help northern painting well than breathing. yet painting came easily for matisse. he reworked and repainted his canvas in an effort to as he said push further and deeper into true painting. a new exhibition at the metropolitan museum of art at new york explores matisse's new process it is called matisse in search of true painting and it is on view until march 17th. rebecca rabinow is curator of the museum department of modern and contemporary art and she's here to help us understand the exhibition and matisse. welcome. >> thank you for having me. >> rose: nice to see you again. so tell me about this idea that painting did not come easily. >> well, when you think about matisse is one of the most famous artists of our tomb. when i give a lecture and say raise your hand if you can picture in -- head a painting by

matisse almost everyone can and yet people think he painted spontaneously and in fact that's not true. this exhibition looks at one aspect of matisse's painting process his use of repeated image a where he would paint the same seen maybe two, three, four times and compare and contrast the facts. what worked, what didn't. was this a better way of adding light to a composition are these colors more successful and it's something that he used throughout his career. >> rose: did he finally get to a point where he said that's it, i've got it, it's that one. >> i think each time each moment he did but he always pushed himself. you never get a sense in his career that he said enough and i'm done. he was constantly trying out new things. >> rose: interesting thing about painters for me is painters who will work all day into the night, wake up the next morning and paint over everything they've done and they're done, gone forever, gone. >> matisse certainly did that. some of his paintings are like archaeological digs.

you can see the breast strokes under the breast strokes and he would scrape out paint and then repaint. but in the 1930's, he hired a photographer to document the conversation of certain paintings and certain charcoal drawings. and he would use these graphs as you weren't comparing them to the canvas, had he gotten closer to what he was aiming for, was he further away. in this exhibition they include some of these photographs because it's really an exhibition about process, about state of process. >> rose: that's the point here the exhibition. help you understand the process an artist uses to get. >> absolutely. >> rose: his own sense of truth. >> his own sense of truth and what's been so nice for me is the response we've gotten from artists from choreographers, from writers who really respond to the way in which they zimaities pushing himself knowing when to keep pushing himself and knowing when to stop which is i think even harder. >> rose: was he different than say picasso. >> well of course he was

different from picasso. they certainly got a lot out of each other. >> rose: no i mean in process. >> in process he was different. i think matisse is harder on himself than picasso said. matisse said when someone praised him he expected no less from himself but when someone criticized him it wounded him to the core. he always pushed him sf. he was never entirely convinced that he had found it. that's really what the show is about. >> rose: whenner said, the quote i think was push further and deeper as you said into true painting. what did he mean by true painting. >> so that is a quote from a letter he wrote to his wife. and i think it's about this process, at that moment he was searching for something in his painting and i think his definition of true instant aing evolved and changed throughout his career. what true painting meant to him in 1905 was not when it meant to him in 1948. so the exhibition is organized chronologically and people i try

to let the paintings speak to one another so that they can see. >> rose: 49 canvas. >> 49 canvas not so big. >> rose: no, not big at all. >> it's they manage knowledge. my thinking of this show grew out of an exhibition called the stein collect which is gertrude stein and her siblings, americans who went to paris during the first years of the 20th century. matisse and me cast owe before they were household names. sarah stein which was richard stein's sist in law owned a number so there's one painting in the show called young sailor which was owned by sarah stein. and we know that when matisse painted it he also painted another version of it. he brought them both back to paris and showed them to gertrude stein's slightly older brother and showed him. and they talked about it. so this idea of pairss one is

in -- owned by the statin museum. there are partners on this exhibition and that was really and that was really another genesis. it's not an exhibition about pairs though it's an exhibition about progression. he painted in pairs since the mission of world war i. it's less this idea of comparison but about process and repeated images. >> rose: what does this exhibition show about his evolution as a painter. >> it was clear from the first paintings 17899 the year he turned 30 and was considering quitting his career as an artist because he needed to support his family to the very last pictures that he was interested in color and light. and how do you combine those two things in a painting. >> rose: review in the "new york times" roberto smith

described ma feast in these words audaciously original. talk about the use of color. >> matisse was a great colorist. he used color in very interesting ways. he was aware how his contemporaries used color. in 1905 he and his peers exhibited works that used brilliant naturalistic colors a state might be green a tree pink and magenta. these were shocking to people he would use colors in such a radically different way. throughout his career he pushed the envelope on color after especially after world war ii when color became as he felt a fad. he said the world is obsessed with color. there were new color refrigerators for housewives. colors were everywhere. people had to be careful. i had taken him a lifetime to understand how to use color for

emotional needs. >> rose: he said another time he wanted to strip painting of all ine sells and capture the true magic of things. >> early in his career he became friendly with a group of philosophers and musicians who were interested in getting down to the essence of their subject. and this is also the same time that they're seeing african sculpt sculpture for the first time. it combined to the idea not representing an individual person and their personality but the essence. what does it mean to be an 18-year-old sailor, what does it mean to be a woman standing on the beach trying to get to that universality. >> rose: and he also as i remember was criticized because it said he was too influenced by other artists. >> early on, early on he was very influenced. he was accused of being a chameleon. would the true personal tear of mr. matisse please stand up. in 1905 that happened. in 1905 for the next five years

or so he was acknowledged as the leader of the musical painting until of course piccaso decided he would rather have that title himself. >> rose: as he was want to do. all right. let's take a look at some of these and begin with young sailor. >> in 1906, matisse went to collyer which is a tiny fishing villaraigosa through the south of france in the spanish border. there was a teenage boy who lived near him and asked the boy model for just one day and we know matisse took a pencil, literally scechtd figure on his can values and said that's the picture you see on the left. young sailor painted in what's known as his vogue style, very dark outline, very brushly painted brightly colored strokes. and then he painted another canvas. he took a canvas the same dimensions, the same subject but instead of using the teenage boy as his model his model was actually the first canvas. and it's painted in a very different way. here is a perfect example he's trying to capture the essence of his subject.

he brought both of these paintings back to paris with him when he returned in the fall and he showed them to leo stein. and leo remembers that matisse told everyone that the local mostman had painted the second version. he wasn't ready to own it. i think he wasn't so sure because you have to remember back then painting will work like young sailor one was really audacious. it was only the people who were interested in the motion avant-garde paintings, could appreciate something like that. so to do something so very different confused people. but it was a moment of transition for matisse. >> rose: did he exhibit them together. >> the pairs that we showed was never exhibited together. this was his own very private way of working and he did not intend for the public to see them in this way. >> rose: when did this sort of when did he stop doing this. >> matisse used engines throughout his career. there was no top. you saw him working this way in

medium sculpture paper. i wanted to show the paintings. >> who was the italian model he painted, law rent. >> he painted a woman named low rent. she was italian descent and she was the first professional model worked with him for a prolonged period of time. his sons were amaze by her. his youngest son remembered her taking her breaks standing buck naked in the window smoking her cigarettes knowing all the men at the police headquarters across the river were staring at her. his older son fell madly in love with her and they had to get him to live town. he created more than 50 paintings of her. in the show we have three. lorette in a green ground, a

moroccan gown. times he's panning in and zooms out. these are paintings during the war, it was a very cold winter and in the work in the collection in which you see her on a pink armchair in a black background she's seen showing her sheep skin slippers. >> rose: what's this. >> in the summer of 1907. this is leluex one and two. matisse returned to collyer and painted a very large painting of three women at the beach. the subject matter goes back to antiquity the idea of three graces. these an aimed exhibition. there are many possible sources. he painted the first version in oil, and then he made a second version in distemper which is a wire-based medium that is very quick drying and very matt surface like a fresco. if you look at them, you can see he made a number of changes from

one to another. he takes out -- if you look at the negative space between the legs of the woman with the bouquet he changes her position. he said that what he wanted to do in repeating an image was to preserve the essence and yet move further with it. and you can really see that in this pair of paintings. >> rose: the next is matisse with gold fish. >> matisse had his studio overlooking the sun. to the right he had a clear view of notre dame cathedral and to the left the them the police station. the work on the left you see matisse's eye. there was the moment of transition between interior and exterior space. if you follow the ridge the curve of the top of the letter, there are pauses and then it repeats itself and you're

already under the bridge. or if you look at the top rim of that jar for the gold fish, it's repeated, that curve is repeated by the plant just as they are to take in so what matisse has done so elegantly is moved your eye from the hushed interior to the twilight being outside. the image which is shown just to the right of it shows that same studio interior the same cable same geld fish jar. a few months have passed the plant has grown. this is a picture matisse began all about an interior space and a sketch he sent to a friend he included himself. so if you go to the show and you see this painting, it's going to impriest your friends and family by asking them where is matisse. if you look there's a parallelogram to the right. that's matisse's pallet and his thumb is sticking through it. those are his bent legs right underneath. in you stand slightly to the right of the painting, you can

actually see where he originally painted his face in the top right corner. >> rose: interior matisse. take a look at that. again a within dough. >> he went and checked into a modern hotel and a few days later he wrote his wife. he said it was a gorgeous kay and he was inspired to throw up the window and paint. he painted the mediterranean sea but the perspective all the way back into the hotel room right to where he's standing so you see this green chair and yellow base board. he was inspired to make other versions of the painting. one of them is what you see on the right a picture in the collection what you see in copenhagen. but he wasn't pleased with it. what he did when in doubt he would use black. he began to paint over in black. you can see the same olive green

chair. the white developy he starts to close the window he added the shutters that you see and he realized how important this painting was. he said with this painting, he happened come to realize that he could create light with black. >> rose: this is a photograph, documenting his process of painting the large blue dress. this is about 1937. what does this represent. >> so what you're seeing is on the far right a painting by the philadelphia museum of art called the large blue dress. it was during the 30's that maities hired a photographer to come and take pictures of his paintings and progress when he thought he had reached a stage he wanted preserved. so what you're seek on the far left it's a photograph of one of the earliest states of this canvas. these aren't studies for the painting, these are photographs of the canvas itself. so you can see initially he's showing his model lydia posing

in his studio. there's a mantle piece behind her. that state was in february. a month later in march you're seeing the picture in the middle. that's how the canvas had evolved. he's already taken out the mantle piece, he wanted to center her head in front those flowers but he wanted to keep her arm so he could double the size of her hand. and he took out the mantle piece and added this grid-like design in the background. >> rose: at some point in the 30's he hired a photographer. >> early 30's when he was working on the barns collection. a huge mural for dance and they kept moving them around but he wanted records of ideas he had. he used the photograph as he worked to compare them to the finished, to the actual in this case painting to see if he was moving closer or further away from wherever it was he was trying to go. and i think having this photograph also gave him the freedom to scrape down his paintings. because we know that lydia after

she would pose for him she would take benzene and she would literally scrape off the paint and say you really got a sense of his process by looking at these photographs. which he himself used. >> rose: but he said at one point he knew where he wanted to end up with a painting. >> he probably did sometimes i we can see for a fact that other times he may not have, he may have had a more abstract sense of where he wanted to end up. >> rose: there's also this question that he agreed to use and include photographs at the exhibition, at the gallery magee. >> ait in 1945. so after the war there was a large fall exhibition devoted to matisse as france tried to reestablish a cultural hedge moany and matisse was a great artist still there. a month after that exhibition closed six of those paintings that had just been on view were

moved to the gallery met. and he had written to matisse about this show and matisse said people know who i am. you don't need to tell them who i am. the only purpose of this exbasic is it's didactic quality that people see my process. and so we've recreated three from that exhibition. >> rose: when you look at all of this and did, what does it say to it, what does it say to you about his place in art? in the 20th century. >> well, i think matisse is one of the really great artists. >> rose: that's why i said one of the great. is he the greatest for you. >> i don't think there is a greatest. i think that that is a title that i would argue does not exist. for different people, different artists are important. i think he was incredibly influential, even during his lifetime. that was one of the reasons he

agreed to have his photographs go on view. he saw his young artists making matisse's and he wanted people to understand it had taken him a lifetime to achieve that. that he didn't paint spontaneously. >> rose: that's what you see is a central theme of the exhibition. that was not easy. he was not a -- painter. >> not at all. >> rose: there was a struggle to find true painting. >> you talked about greenberg in his quote that matisse could no more easily help painting than breathing actually that wasn't at all the case. he just made it look that way. >> rose: what influence did he have on picasso and what influence did picasso on him. >> there's a large matisse maa

caste -- try to take the leader -- he were to use a very current term i would say frenimies. they admired each other at times and competed at times but i think ultimately there was respect. >> rose: what was his influential period. >> matisse's? i think his very late period, 1948 these late late paintings has influenced a number of artists like aleck cats who came to view the showed. he talked to me about it -- i think he paint spontaneously. i wish i had known how much work went into it. it would have made me calmer about my own creation. like this pressure. you create something so fresh spontaneously, it's rarely like that. >> rose: that's a lesson for all of us. >> it's a lesson for all of us whether we're artists or doing anything else. >> rose: this is interior with an egyptian curtain.

in 1948 and an interior with a black fern. tell me about this. >> in the 40's as the allied trains to regain france from the nice. his brother lived in nice and lived in the house of dreams. there was a studio on the something floor overlooking the garden. he painted his last, he created his last painted series from that house and so what you're seeing on the screen are two of those paintings. on the left is the egyptian curtain which he painted in february of 1948. and we talked about color and light. >> rose: oh wow. >> to me that's what this picture's about. you get this amazing sense of light outside it's winter, it's coming in from the window, it's actually dematerializing. if you stand in front of the painting you can see the canvas is left bear in certain places and it casts that very black

shadow. it's an amazing picture. next year a painting same month you see the window with the palm tree now in the upper right but it's a completely different painting. still about color and light. i happen to know a lot about his biography. i know that his daughter marguerite was involved in the french distant. she had been captured and tortured by the gestapo. he found out after the war. after i see this painting i see emaciated face menace by this fern and yet i see the color and light and i see the fact i happen to know a friend bought him a leopard skin rug which he stretched to the scale wall to

wall compartment. >> rose: matisse in search of true painting, rebecca rabinow do you know either of modern and contemporary art. this is grouped in themes, the government of is an tro pay, the academic tradition revised the use of notre dame and using black to payment -- painted life. a remarkable collection. >> thank you very much. >> rose: thank you. thanks for joining and we'll see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> this is "nightly business report" with tyler math son and susan garrett. >> battle of the budgets. hoes first up, house republicans say their plan saves nearly $5 trillion. the white house says the math doesn't add up. >> another record bear le upon the dow inches high tore another all-time high and the s&p 500 snapped a seven-day winning streak. >> and the unfriendly skies. how frequent flier programs are changing. fasten your seat belts and make sure you're locked in and upright for this. ♪ >> good evening and welcome to our public television viewers. after days of having the focus wall street, today it shifts to washington. >> it sure did, tyler. there's an escalating budget battle waging in the capital after house republicans unveiled their latest federal budget proposal today with plans to slash the country's massive deficit and get government spending under control all

without raising taxes. as senate depp democrats prepare their own budget plan, can congress and the president reach a bipart san budget compromise any time soon in hampton pearson takes a look. >> house republicans unveiled the blueprint they say balances the federal budget with just spending cuts and no new tax hikes. at the top of the gop list of what's needed to achieve $4.6 trillion in spending cuts over the next decade is to repeal obama care, cut domestic programs from medicaid to college grants and require future medicare patients to bear more of the program's cost. gop budget pointman paul ryan once again throwing down the gauntlet to democrats. >> we don't think it's fair to let critical programs like medicare go bankrupt. we don't think it's fair to take more from hardworking family to spend more on washington. >> the obama white house wafrted little time in criticizing the budget, when it comes to reducing the deficit the math doesn't a