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from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> welcome to the program, i'm frank bruni filling in for charlie rose who is on assignment in rome. around the world, millions watched for a glimpse of white smoke from the chimney of the sistine chapel. just after 7:00 p.m., the signal came. cardinal jorge mario bergoglio, a jesuit from argentina, has been elected the 266th pope. in his brief address from the balcony of st. peter's basilica, the new pope asked for the crowd's blessing. many say this papacy heralds an era of change in the catholic church. cardinal bergoglio succeeds benedict xvith, who was the first pope to retire in 600 years. pope francis is the first to take the name francis and he's the first pope in the history of the church to be chosen from the global south. joining me now father joseph mcshane. he is the president of fordham university.

father walter modrys, he was pastor of st. ignatius loyola patience in new york city for 19 years. john degioia, he is the president of georgetown university and in nashville, jon meacham. he is the author of "thomas jefferson: the art of power. " i'm pleased to have them. father mcshane, were you watching to see who would come out and were you surprised at who stepped up? >> i was i was in my office with my staff, i was walking across campus a little while before. heard the church bells rings which had been silent since benedict stepped down. we all crowded in and watched and i was stunned. we didn't believe it was possible. first jesuit. >> bruni: you heard his name mentioned before though, right?

>> he was mentioned prominently in the last conclave but not all that prominently this time around. which was giving outlines and thumbnail stretchs for the last several weeks. so it was stunning. >> bruni: president degioia, as surprising to you as father mcshane? >> it was, this combination is truly extraordinary and poses a unique moment for the church >> bruni: had you hoped for him? was he on your mind at small >> no. like father mcshane this came as a surprise but we were all wondering whether this might be the moment where the conclave might turn to the south. look to where the church is right now in the americas, this is the largest part of the roman

catholic church and the church in the southened s growing and we thought this might be an opportunity to be inclusive in terms of the leadership. >> rose: father mad mad reese, you're a jesuit. was he on your radar and in your hopes before today? >> like so many other people i was confused by the number of candidates that the media was presenting. >> rose: (laughs) really? sy thought the conclave would go on for days and days but i happened to click on my computer and got one of the news weapon sites and it was announced that there was white smoke and then i turned on the t.v. to wait with everybody e.m.s. and so i was really shocked that a jesuit would be elected to be the pope. it was really surprising. >> bruni: jon meacham, what were

your first thoughts were the name were goal owe splashed across the t.v. screen? >> i liked the jesuitical conclave you have there. (laughter) i was totally flabbergasted. i appreciate being the diversity pick here. the lone pranlt. what i found so interesting it was church choice of the pontifical name. francis is a fascinating historical and theological figure someone who was, like augustin, a convert after a fairly spendthrift use by legend he was incredibly devoted to the poor, to the outcast and intensely spiritual. perhaps the first case of the stigmata was st. francis.

also interesting by omission why this is the first time a pope has turned to that example raises an interesting question. >> bruni: well, perhaps it has something to do with his background. as we're learning a little bit about him right now we're hearing a lot about his not only attitude toward the poor but his own economic and personal humility. are you struck by that? >> i am. we're told that he moved out of the archbishop palace in buenos aires, takes public transportation, cooks his own meals and makes a point of visiting the parishes in poor areas around buenos aires and has a reputation of being a very staunch advocate for the poorest of the poor and has taken on the economic powers that be in argentina saying that you can't forget the poor. why are we in that part of the world which is grange fastest and in which the gap between rich and poor is also growing fastest. >> bruni: how is that way of living or that kind of personal style, how is that relevant to

the role he's taking on now and does it tell you anything about how he may lead the church? >> well i think that it's an enormous lesson for the church to look at. a man of humility, a man whoa who's clearly chosen to be poor. as the archbishop of buenos aires he could have a fairly sumptuous life-style even. but he has chosen this way of living. this is a great challenge to the church. the church must not only talk about advocacy to the poor but must live with them, among them and serve them. so i think this is a turning point and it's an important threshold moment for us. >> if i could pick up one other thing both from what joe was saying and what john mentioned. there's another francis and i would love to know what was in the mind of the holy father now when he chose this name. because as jon said, there's

francis of assisi, but in the jesuit context, one of the co-founders with st. ignatius was francis xavier and he was the one that ignatius sent as the first missionary and this is -- there's a double meaning, i think, at stake here, somebody deeply committed to the poor and to social justice and at the same time to reaching out to the world. and i think there's -- there may be something more to this. >> bruni: we're obviously dealing with a lot of firsts today and one of the firsts mentioned is first jesuit. with what is the significant of that? what do we know to be true of jesuits that tells us something about this pope and how he may lead? >> i was watching some of the t.v. shows and people were grappling with this, somebody says the jesuits are the commandos, the marines of god. somebody else said jesuits are known for their discipline and somebody else had educators

which is probably fairly close to the truth. but the authentic jesuit tradition and values are going to i think be very clearly exercised in this papacy because of the holy father's background. he wasn't just a jesuit but he was also a man who was picked right after ordination when he was just 33 years old to become a teacher of new jesuits entering the society and after that he was made the provincial of the argentine province. so he was the leader among the jesuits then he was appointed rector of this theology school. to get those kinds of jobs in the jesuits means that this man really did understand and express much of the spirituality of st. ignatius and that's his

background and i think that's where his knew hew miltie comes from. and his love of the poor. i think one of the great gifts in the spirituality of ignatius is this thing about discernment and that means trying to tease out where god is authentically calling us. what are the forces that are pulling us away and what are the good forces that we should align ourselves with? and that's what, it seems to me, the next pope really needs: the ability to carry on that kind of level of what ignatius called discernment. so i think his jesuit background is going to be extremely important in interpreting what pope francis is really all about. >> rose:. >> bruni: this has come up in this conversation about jesuits. we've heard about jesuits as educators, they are known as intellectuals in the church. we've just come from a papacy and a pope who was known as very bookish, intellectual and who

was never quite comfortable as best we could tell with the ceremonial aspects of the role. was never comfortable with the public leadership part of it. do we know anything about what pope francis will be like in that regard? is that an important open question here? >> it is an enormous part and i think we're all living in thed that doe of john paul ii who mastered the means of public leadership, as you say. rather in the way franklin roosevelt ha mastered radio or john kennedy mastered television. john paul ii created an icon, a platonic ideal, really, of that. and i think one of the things that was striking about the moment, the announcement was he did seem slightly awkward, but it was an awkwardness that seemed to communicate an essence that needed communication.

>> bruni: it has to have a fetching humility to it consistent with his personal biography. >> it did. >> and an authenticity which, in this climate, is -- you sort of counterprogram. so there's an argument that if he's not particularly smooth that might actually be even more effective. >> it could be, sure. you mentioned pope john paul, which i'm glad you did. one of the distinguishing facets of his years was in the end we saw him whither and die on a public stage. we've now had a pope who's the first one to retire in many, many centuries because of physical frailty, he says. our new pope is 76 years old. do you think fit gave the cardinals voting on this pause? is that something that surprises you in terms of how vigorous he may be or how many years this papacy could last? father mcshane? >> i mean, that really invites speculation. we don't know what they were thinking, what they were saying in the conclave and i don't think we'll learn much about it for a long, long time.

the fact that they chose him is interesting because he is almost the same age that pope benedict was when he was elected. >> actually a little older. >> and so really it's -- that does give one pause. i think the fact that he was considered last time around, he was probably seen as a known quantity and as jack said before the choice of a latin american is -- some would say it's safe and extraordinary at the same time. it is the where over 40% of the church lives. the fact that he had curial -- not curial but congregational appointments, he's well known in roam, that would have made him a familiar figure. he's seen as wise as well as humble. he's seen as a worker as well as a precider. he did take on the bureaucracy in the church in argentina and streamline it. he opened new parishes, he was

engaged in new evangelization. i think -- if i can say this -- of course you can say this with almost infallible certainty because no one knows. >> bruni: infallible! (laughter) >> infallible certainty on that. >> bruni: strange that word coming out in a discussion about popes. >> i think his humility-- which i think was on display today-- to ask the people for a favor and then say "i want you to pray for me, in essence i want you bless me before i bless you" was extraordinary. i think it's the humility. the brightness, the spirituality the hard work, the directness. i think they looked past age and saw these things as many of the qualities that were talked about in the runup during the congregations and during the american press briefings. these were the things that were talked about. >> before we leave the age question, a lot of the question someone like me asks are predicated on political parallels. when we elect a president we expect a physician's roach that we look at and voters get the highlights of. do we even know president

degioia whether the cardinal electors know much about president health of the people they're voting on? whether this is something that gets discussed or whether there's information swapd? vfrjts we don't know what went into this decision. sometimes after the fact there will be some sharing of information and a sense of what people were thinking about. but i think as my colleagues have all pointed out here, we have a man who has been entrusted with leadership throughout his life at a very young age. he was placed in a position of real responsibility. and throughout his life has demonstrated a capacity to exercise that leadership. i think i can probably say something that both walter and joe would be too humble to say. his formation as a jesuit ensure that in that process by which we he develops that capacity for authentic discernment it's grounded in love and a respect for the poor and a way that i

think will provide an extraordinary prapl work of which he can provide this leadership for our church at this point in time. >> bruni: jon meacham, if i can go back to you, in the buildup to this election to this conclave, much was made about how the vatican administration itself needed reform. we had the leak scandal, all of that. here's a cardinal who's coming from -- now pope coming from outside the vatican, of course, pope benedict came from many years as the ultimate vatican insider. do you think that's the hopeful or troubling buildup to a job that is going to be in large measure about wrestling control of what we've learned is a sprawling and dysfunctional bureaucracy? >> well, as obviously not having any firsthand knowledge of it, my sense of -- to go to everything we've been saying is -- and given his life experience in buenos aires where he did not avail himself of the perks of office suggest to me that this is a potentially quite

revolutionary reformer. at least the clinical signs. the clinical clues would suggest that entrenchment privilege inertia, sclerosis would all be thingss that would be anathema to him given the way he lives and the way he's appeared in this very brief moment. so if i were a corrupt vatican bureaucrat i wouldn't be sleeping particularly easily tonight. just because -- i think being an outsider here and by underscoring such a -- as we were saying an evangelical mission driven ethos suggests to me that there could be a significant amount of reform. >> bruni: so first jesuit. we talked about first open from latin america. that's probably the bigger and even more relevant first.

what what kind of message do you think that sends to catholics worldwide father modrys. >> i think as time goes on it's going to be the personality of the pope that has comes to the fore. i mean, the fact that this man is from south america is certainly going to be very influential of course in shaping his personality but it's going to be important to watch the kinds of decisions he makes and most of all i think the paradigm of leadership that he adopts. you know, we in the united states are always drawing parallels between our own political leaders and the pope and the analogy really limps. but this is the ultimate sort of bully pulpit and there's a lot of room here for the pope in his position to determine the kind of leadership he's going to exercise. and it goes back to what john was saying before how do you

clean up the bureaucracy, how do you inspire people to renew their faith? how do you speak to the largely secular world? and what role do specific christian values play in that. for example, this humility can, in fact, a leader of the catholic church present himself as fundamentally a very humble person. now, as people of faith we would hope the answer to that is yes. because obviously that's -- that's the most christ-like virtue that we all respect. but it's different from what we need in a present, in a political leader. so it's going to be very interesting to see how this particular pope will take as i say all of his jesuit background his coming from south america and pull so much of that together and put his own

personal stamp on what it means to be the pope in the 21st century. >> and i think, too, there's an opportunity here for inclusiveness that the entire world may be able to connect with this man. >> rose: that's facilitated by the symbolism of the selection. >> yeah. and has already been stated, the hue mill they he demonstrated just as he came out today and asking the world to pray for him the life-long commitment he's had to social justice this can resonate both in the north and the south. people thought deceptively simple but he was not a simple man at all was john xx 3shgs 3shgs 3shgs. we saw a establishment of him today. someone that the world could almost fall in love with because

he was so authentic. and because of his devotion to the poor which grew out of love was simply captivating. that's the hope i have that he is someone who's in that mold and i think he has that about him from what we've seen. >> humble man but the challenges he's inheriting anything but humble. let's talk about those. president degioia. what do you think are the biggest and most immediate challenges facing him as pope now? >> well, we have a very fractured church in the north, europe and america. this has been we're flat in terms of the growth of -- in the south it's growing. africa biggest growth rate in the world. largest percentage of catholics are in latin america, big growth rates in asia. being able to pull together this global but very diverse community i think is going to be the most significant first challenge and, again, in the

north europe and america we have real challenges in being able to pull this -- these communities together. that's challenge number one. >> rose: what about some of the things that grab news headlines a little more and that i think the pope does have to reckon with. is the church through its child sexual abuse crisis? if not what can we expect from this pope on that front? father mcshane? hfrjts well, i don't think we're through it. i hope that -- i think that revelations will still come out. i think the developed west many of the churches addressed it, put policies in place. now we have to make sure they're followed. cardinal degioia was quite correct that one of the things the new pope will have to do is make it clear to zero tolerance throughout the church is zero tolerance throughout the church. that's an absolutely essential thing. and when that is stated i think what has to be stated even before we say the zero tolerance i think holy father has to say that the church stands first and

always with the victims. not with its own prestige, not with its own name and not protecting those who are dressed like walter and myself and that has to be the first step. i think the man sees god as the value and not the institution. and i think that's in the gospel. >> rose: >> we all bear a responsibility for not taking care of our children. we had systems in place that did not provide the adequate protection and we all bear some responsibility for that. in this period we need to come to terms with that, achieve some level of reconciliation and create a foundation of trust that moving forward we're going to protect our children. >> bruni: do you agree with the estimation of many catholics that this child sexual abuse crisis along with other things, the vatican leak scandal has

eroded the church's moral authority? >> there's no question that that is part of the rebuilding that has to happen in this new papacy. >> bruni: jon meacham, when we talk about those challenges people often point out the church is not a very transparent organization, a lot of that has been discussed in terms of the vatican bank and the need to reform. that we know not a lot about pope francis and how he will operate but do you think transparency is a big issue for him? a big thing he has to address and any reason to believe that could be something that changes? >> given that we're talking about this selection and that we don't know anything about it -- >> rose: the conclave isn't very transparent. >> exactly many of the issues that you it seems to me the new

pope is not doctrinally different if his predecessor orapred saysors. this is not about to become a significantly more-- to use an entire term-- a more liberal church. what i find striking and i would love to hear what you all think about this is one of the things that's happened in evangelical circles is a generational shift from issues of sexual morality about the poor, about h.i.v./aids, about the environment. one question is would a renewed emphasis on social justice perhaps open the culture of the church more even though there might not be movement about issues of sexual morality. >> certainly it will change the discussion on what we focus on. >> i agree and let's be honest we're rushing to find out as

much as we can about the new pope. it's clear he is a bishop, archbishop and cardinal chosen clearly by john paul ii therefore he will be doctrinally conservative as jon said but socially far more liberal than most people would believe or would understand. i think we see this very clearly in his very staunch and consistent-- this is a word that jack used and very important word to use-- his consistent championing, his advocacy for the poorest of the poor. not only in buenos aires but throughout argentina and latin america. this would indicate i think he's going to try and shift the church into a more obviously compassionate ministry to the poor at the same time that he is -- as jon said he's going to be conservative doctrinally but he'll be compassionately lib federal the way which he deals

with the poor. >> bruni: let's be clear about he's going to be conservative in terms of doctrine what we mean. what won't change father modrys? >> the celibacy of the clergy. >> anything. (laughter) women's ordination. the official position of the church on birth control. attitudes towards gay marriage. >> bruni: all off the table? >> i think continuity and consistency is going to be very apparent here. the important thing is tone, what will the pope use on all of these issues? one of the failures we've been guilty of is we should lead with a lot of compassion and sometimes the catholic church and the way catholic teaching is presented can appear to people

to be very stern. >> bruni: harsh. >> harsh. and i think without being critical of what went on in the past or what -- i think positive a tone that is welcoming that is caring. one of the traditional terms used for anybody in ministry in the christian church is the shepherd. and caring for the sheep. and there is so many of the gospel passages that we read on sunday about the compassion of jesus reaching out even towards sinners and people who are alienated and marginalized and so forth. that's very important in today's world. so that even if people feel critical about church teaching, whether they're catholics or from outside the church: if they feel they're being loved and understood and embraced by this that goes aa long way.

>> bruni: i don't want to get you in trouble with catholics, but should those issues be off the table? when we're talking about the celibacy requirement for priests the church's teaching on homosexuality, contraception, birth control. should that be off the table or would you have preferred to see a pope if there was anyone in that conclave take that position try to nudge the church in a different direction? >> speaking from the context of a university with respect no question is off the table and where we are prepared to follow the truth wherever it leads us and we're prepared to be as rigorous as possible in the analysis of any question i don't think that there's ever a moment where we should be willing to engage. what i'm so encouraged about this moment is anyone who has been formed for the spirituality of the jesuits brings a predisposition to love and a willingness to engage and to be open to the needs of others. i mean, one of the earliest jesuits with, jerome nadal, said the jesuits go where there are

people in need for whom no one else will care. that's the tradition out of which this new pope comes and i think what we have is an opportunity for invitation to enable people to come back in, to reconnect, to find a way to connect toe these deep resources that can give all of our lives meaning. and those resources can get lost when we get tripped up by these very difficult issues. so now i think we should be open but i also think he comes out of the tradition that may especially open us to different dimensions of the resources. >> bruni: let me ask you all one last question and i want you to engage in optimism as robust as you've ever engaged in. as has been said many times, we don't nope a lot about him. we don't know what his priorities are. if you could urge something on him, briefly, if you could indulge in a wish for something he'd do during his papacy or in

the next couple of weeks, what happened it be, father mcshane? >> in the spirit of what my colleagues have said, i would beg him to read and pray over the opening sections which talk about -- which begin by saying the joys and sorrows, the aspirations and sufferings of the human family are the joys and aspirations of the church. and coming out of that, that encourages us -- let us -- encourages us to enter into a minute stay is based on attentive and loving dialogue. attentive and loving dialogue. so that the joyce and sorrows of the world are heard with the heart, acted on front from the heart and problems are solved. remembering that the image that we want is of the shepherd, but a particular shepherd. a shepherd christ who is not afraid to go outside the lines,

to paint outside the lines and work outside the lines and listen with the heart. >> bruni: jon meacham, one thing you would love to see this pope do? >> as a sacramental christian, though a protestant, i would love to see a holy father representing 1.2 billion believers around the world who can tell the story of the sacraments, who can make the central story, the central truth of christianity more appealing and more overtly told and i think that a man of compassion, a man of humility subpoena perhaps uniquely positioned to do that. right now i think too often because of the liturgy, because of the grandeur of the vatican, because of the grandeur of churches sometimes the church can feel too far removed from

the people and i think that closing that gap and someone who understands that gap is perhaps the best person to speak across it. >> bruni: president degioia, if you let yourself be grandiose, advice for pope francis? >> advice: reach out to the young. i have an 11-year-old son. i want my son to experience his faith with the depth of meaning and it will provide for him in his life as it has for me in mine and i think if he can reach out to the young and touch this next generation we'll be preparing our world in a very important way. >> bruni: father modrys? >> well, i think everyone has said basically the same thing and that's what i would say, too but in my own words it would be -- i would urge the pope to listen with a discerning ear. joe brought this out that we're both a teaching church and a

learning church and there has to be a dialogue that is open where people can bring their criticism their disagreements as well as their support, their needs, their particular graces. and the pope has to listen to that. and sometimes it's going to come forfrom quarters that he's not that comfortable with. but he still has to listen. then he has to bring a discerning ear to that. and foo-to-find out what in our tradition really does represent god's call for us as a people. and what in the tradition is holding us back? and similarly, with all these new currents going on in the church, how many of those are authentic expressions of a new spirit leading us, challenging us to move forward and what is is distorting in some of these new movement ins in the world? and if there's a pope that's listening compassionately with a

discerning ear, that's what is most needed in pope francis i and we'll pray that he does that. >> one last thing if i could, and i'm imposing on this. holy week is almost upon us. i would say to pope francis on holy thursday do not wash the feet of seminarians or priests, bring into st. peter's the poor, the forgotten, the lonely, the outcast, the people that the world thinks little of and would turn away from. and on that day wash their feet. i think it would be very powerful and come from his heart. >> bruni: father mcshane, president degioia, father mad dress, jon meacham, thank you all for being here and talking with us on this historic day, maybe even a turning point for the catholic church.

i'm frank bruni with the "new york times" sitting in for charlie rose. thanks for joining us. >> rose: what does it say, the election of pope francis? >> a drat dramatic moment. a defining moment for the church and the world certainly from argentina never before. south america never before jesuit, never before. and a pope who for the first time takes the name of francis. it means that this pope wants to do something very different and very good, especially for the downcast, the downtrodden, the poor, the last ones in society. >> rose: that's important for the church at this moment? >> well, that's what jesus did, charlie.

and perhaps through other century it is church has always remained faithful to its mission but that mission has sometimes been clouded. we've experienceed that in recent years through some of the scandals, through the difficulties here in the vatican curia. to me it's very interesting that fatherer be goglia took the name of francis when francis was converted. he received a message from the lord "francis, rebuild my church." it was a time of great scandal in the church in terms of great richness amongst bishops, amongst clergy. and francis himself came from a very rich family and he thought the lord was saying take bricks and mortar and rebuild my church but then he understood it was to reform the church that it again became a witness to those whom the lord loved.

especially poor, the lost ones in society. >> you have heard me ask these questions as well some saw this election before we knew it was going to be i was as a kind of struggle for power in the church for power. does it speak to that? >> they have chosen a man who is powerless that is the extraordinary choice that the cardinals in fact have made. here is a man who lives very simply, works very simply, has one lung. >> rose: one lung? >> he has one lung. fatherer be goglia has one lung. it's extraordinary they choose a

man has one long. >> rose: what does it mean that bergoglio is a jesuit? and this the church has never had a jesuit pope? >> the jesuits were founded by a great, great man, ignatius of loyola who had a great vision of the church to evangelize. to bring the good news to the farthest corners of the world. so ignatius sent missionaries all over the world, especially to those who hadn't heard the good news. during these last 500 years, again, the jesuits in some sense have lost their mission but pope francis i has remained very true to that mission. i think we will see a man who wants sincerely to do what ignatius did: bring good news

and joy, especially to those who are suffering. >> rose: does he reremind you of pope john paul ii at small >> he does, pope john paul ii in his humility. even more so, charlie, he reminds me of john the 23rd. his line was that the reform of the church would come from the poor. and john the 23rd really loved the people and was called a good pope, a papa buono. when pope francis stood at that balcony, that came to my mind here we have another john 23rd, also elected at an old age, 78, many thought he was a transitional pope but he called a council that was to bring -- reform into the church and into the world. >> rose: there is also the

question at this time about the doctrinal issues: women, celibacy the and others. divorce. do you think that's part of his thinking or does he simply say i am with the teachings i have that suspected from john paul and pope benedict? >> his first mission, charlie, will be to reach people so i am convinced he will remain faithful to the teachings of the church. but he will find ways to make that teaching meaningful and comprehensible to those who have become distant from the message of the church. part of the reason for that is that we haven't proclaimed those teachings as good news you need a witness to believe a witness. and i think in pope francis i by his -- the authenticity of his

life, by the suffering he's experienced, people are going to be convinced by the words he conveys. >> rose: life he lives and the deeds he does will speak to the question of what the church stands? >> otherwise we are not authentic. we say one thing, we do another thing. and pope francis i by the simplicity of his life, his actions, by his own physical suffering is going to convince people. >> rose:, well, you know the new pontiff. >> i do, i do. i've had great privilege. >> rose: are you pleased? >> overwhelmingly so. overwhelmingly so. it's a great gift to the church from god. >> rose: why? >> well, i think this is a man who comes from latin america and i heard him saying for a long time it's time for the church to look at our brothers and sisters in life in america. half the church is there. the church have had a lot of difficulties over the years

dictatorial regimes and difficulties with many sects which have come in. a good people, of course, but making often as ha their desire not to bring this things into their community but take the catholics out of their community and i think that the presence of a pope from latin america could really light the fire throughout that great part of the world so as a catholic who's worked in a regular home who've been involved in latin america for a long time i rejoice. that's the first reason. second is he's a brilliant man. he's a ratzinger type person, a great theologian, a great thoughtful man. and secondly -- thirdly i he's a very prayerful man.

and that's the power of prayer is so important in our society and we have forgotten that and i think he will remind us of that. so for all those reasons. >> rose: he's a man that the conservatives who voted had to accept. >> yes. yes. because he -- as far as theology goes, he would be very much a conservative. >> rose: where john paul was, where ratzinger was. >> certainly where john paul was and i think where -- i would say john paul i always thought was in the center. >> rose: benedict was -- >> benedict was maybe center right but never extreme. benedict was -- >> rose: ands where the new pontiff? >> i think he's center. i think he's like john paul. the he can talk to both sides. and appreciate both sides and bring them together. >> a lot of firsts here, first latin america. >> yes. first jesuit. >> rose: you must be thrilled by that. >> (laughs) i was trained by the jesuits.

i'm not a jesuit myself. but -- >> rose: first francis? >> first francis, yes. and the first with a new name in 500 years. >> rose: what does he want to do >> you'll have to ask the holy father. >> rose: you must know how he feels about what the church has to do to recapture and move ahead? >> i think he wants to remind us that we have to love the poor. >> rose: love the poor. >> love the poor. and i i have this that sometimes we forget that. virtues of francis, francis loved the poor. francis was a man of peace. and francis loved the church and i think he'll find in this man someone who has those three great characteristics. you have to love the poor, and he's got to love the church and

be a man of peace. >> rose: he's 76 years old. does that mean he be definition will be a transitional pope? >> it means he won't be pope for 30 years. >> rose: unless he's got great genes. >> (laughs) even so. be but i think -- no, he's in good shape, he takes care of himself. he -- >> rose: cooks his own meals. >> cooks his own meals. that may have to stop. >> rose: (laughs) yes. >> but i don't see him getting very fat. i don't see him getting vary lazy. this is not the man. >> rose: he that has stamina to do what this church -- everybody's been saying all week needs to do? he's a manager? >> yes. >> rose: he's a man who know it is church both in rome and outside of roam. >> yes, i believe so, yes. yes. >> rose: and he knows how much god wants this to happen and

there is nothing in his whole makeup that moves him more. >> rose: is this a moment for the church and for this -- and for pope francis in the sense to say this is a defining moment for this church? >> absolutely. >> rose: we're challenged. we're challenged by scandal, we're challenged by other people offering other alternatives in the religious world. we're challenged by the needs of the poor. we're challenged by some sense of where the growth of the church is more so than europe, in latin america and africa. we need somebody who wants to take on those tasks and knows how to manage some that a billion three people will be served? >> no. so that all the world will be served. >> rose: all the world? it's more than c.a.t. sflix >> it's more than catholics. it's an example? >> it's an example and a teaching. he will be and is now by virtue of the history of our world the

most important moral leader in the world. and so he's not going to just lose catholics. he's going to try to bring all people of good will to the recognition of that great wonderful thing that is in islam is i n jude i didn't mean, is in christianity. we've got to love each other. we've got to love our neighbor and that makes the world go round. >> rose: but you say he's center and john paul was center and pope benedict was center right. >> rose: >> i'm sorry i gave you that -- >> rose: no, don't be sorry. (laughs) >> you can't apply -- >> rose: political terms? >> political terms to religious views. >> rose: fair enough. but the church also faces these issues: women. the ordination of women divorce, celibacy. is it prepared to take on those

things or are they not on the table? >> well, i think the ordination of women is not on the table because john paul ii made it very clear and pope benedict followed through that the doctrine of the church does not say we can ordain women. but once you put ordination on the side then the role of women should be absolutely fostered in the church. and when you look at the church in the united states all our hospitals, thousands of catholic hospitals, that whole thing is run by a woman. a sister. when you look at catholic relief services, the outlook of the church the outreach of the catholic church to all the poor in the world, carolyn wu, a woman and in so many other areas in the local diocese. i always had the chance for -- i've always had the privilege to serve and my chancellor was

always a woman. first it was a nun then in the archbishop it was a nun and the last one was a wonderful wife and mother who's a lawyer and has been one of the great chancellors of the western world. so women are doing things and i think we have to sort of put this flashlight, search light on what they're doing in many, many areas. my financial chief was a woman. and you know when you take care of the money and you take care of the organization, you take care of the poor and the sick, you know, that's where the power is. >> rose: speaking of power, some people saw this election-- whoever was elected pope-- as a defining moment of the power of the roman curia and the papacy. that have, in fact, there were many people in the church and outside of rome who said too much power in rome.

we need to rein it in and decentralize. what does this pontiff mean for that question? >> well, if that question is answered already by the second vatican council which is a council of collaboration i think you will find this man -- a man at the second vatican council as we're all supposed to be. >> rose: does the church need a third vatican council in. >> that's not for me to say. i'm retired. (laughs) >> rose: but let me just stay with this. clearly the choices here were between reform and pra tradition and clearly the church has to face -- and there's been a feeling at least as a non-catholic that i had here knowing you and many other people that the church understood its problems. this was not a people who came in here without an aware ens that they had to challenge these issues. >> that's very true.

so that's doctrine and also membership but there is this thing about decentralization and power and too much europe twchlt >> well, i think many feel that way. i think many cardinals felt that way. that's why they moved out of europe to choose the pope i think that's why we are constantly reminded of the need to follow the second vatican council which is a council of collaboration and i think this is a pope who will do that. so i think -- certainly with regard to the doctrine he will be conservative because he will follow what jesus christ asks us to follow. he will do what john 23rd wants us to do. he will take the doctrine and our teaching and bring it up to date. that means you don't change the teaching but it means that you make -- change the way you explain it. >> rose: i'm old enough to have followed vatican council two in

the '60s. have those changes been implemented in the church? >> not all. many, but not all. >> rose: 30 years ago. 50 years ago. >> 50 years ago. some have, many have. and the church is in process. the church is always reforming itself but never totally reformed because it there's always more to do. >> rose: you said as you sat down that it was very important to understand the episcopal connection and mercy was the word. explain that to me. >> i don't remember saying that. >> rose: well, mercy was the key word. >> i think -- or did i misunderstand. >> you may have misunderstood but mercy is a key word. >> rose: and how so in the terms of this pope? >> well, i think once you help the poor it's part of your soul.

you can't love the poor without mercy and you can't be really merciful unless you look to help others e. and that's what this man is about. that's what we should all be about. >> rose: is it fair to say he was your choice and that you urged his support? >> >> as a retired cardinal i do not have a choice, nor did i voice a choice. >> rose: but you have friends. >> i have a lot of friends. we all have a lot of friends. i spoke highly of many people and i'm sure he would have been one that i spoke highly of. >> rose: you would have spoke very high of him? >> i would have spoke very highly about many people. >> rose: (laughs) >> thank you. >> rose: thank you. >> it's fun to have this exchange with you. it's great to see you.

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