if i can put it like that and it opens up worlds. it opens up everything. and when we are saying we're to the going to do shakespeare in the schools any more, it to me this is a crime. >> rose: we conclude with lawrence wright, author of going clear, scientology, hollywood and the prison of belief. >> in scientology, in some ways it's like its dali lama, there's a sense that the leader will return. and he, hubbard actually propagated that idea himself, that he was going to be offline because he said for about 20 years. and he would return. so there was a sense that the leader was going to come back. there's actually all of his offices, and residen resident-- residences have, they make his bed, they change his sheets, they set out his table settings. they're waiting for him to reappear any day. his notebook, his cigarettes, everything is there waiting.

>> rose: cardinal dolan, the story of whitey bulger tina packer and lawrence wright when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the following: captioning sponsored by rose communications

from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. . >> rose: cardinal timothy dolan the archbishop in new york was in rome for the recent conclave that selected a new pope. i talked with him soon after the vote and dinner with the pope, among the 115 cardinals who selected him, and we talked about the selection of this new pope. >> what does this choice represent for the church, and why do you believe without telling us anything that went on inside, why dow believe he was chosen? >> well, let's look at it from two ways, charlie. first of all you asked me what does this represent, or what does this mean. let me try to answer that one in two ways. first what does it mean from the top down. what does it mean from heaven to us. and it means, and this resounds with catholics, it's part of our makeup, it tells us that jesus

continues to take care of his church. he said this-- sent us another good shepherd. every time a pope goes, and i can remember back to when pio circumstances the 12th died when i was 8 years old in 1958, people say oh, how are we ever going to get another one like him. it happened after john, and then john the 23rd came, when he died we said oh my lord, how are we going replace him. happens all the time. and every time we have a new pope, i think you're right, i will get to that in a second, this one seems to have generatesed a particularly high interest, but every time we get a new pope, catholics smile and take a deep breath and say lord, you've done it again. so that's the first meaning. what god is telling us. but secondly, what does it is a to us. i think it reminded us of two things. at the heart of catholic life today. number one, is the amazing expanse of the church in what we might call the second and third world, okay. so latin america is just bursting with catholic life. now they got their problems

and challenges, charlie, and this man was just elected, is very savvy about em this, okay. but in general he is an intense admiration for the deeply profound rich catholic chemistry of south america, of latin america. and it shows the universality of the church and it's almost a nod from holy mother church from one of other children that is growing up and becoming an adult. secondly, it shows us that timeless solace tude of the church for the-- solicitude of the church for the poor. if you google jorge berg olia now known as pope francis i, will you see he is particularly celebrated for his tender love for the poor, especially the poor in buenos aires, his arch buy december. and that, of course, is a-- archdiocese. and that say constant. what it means, where we have been meeting in conclave, in the sistine chapel under michelangelo's renowned

artwork defecting what, the last judgement. and what is jesus saying at the last judgement. he's saying you come with me for eternal life in heaven. you are damned forever in hell and what's the criteria. as long as you did it for one of these, the les of-- the least of my brethren, you did it for me. i would like to think every cardinal in that room, his heartburns with love for charity. but this pope seems to have done that in a particularly radiant, catching way. so i think that's the second thing. we're trying to tell the church universal or show them or exempt few to them that the growing developing, beautifully vibrant church of latin america, and secondly, the church's consistent solicitude for the poor. >> does he represent reform? >> every pope will represent reform. okay, now in one way, charlie, reform is at the essence of the pope's job description. why? because he's echoing jesus

who says reform,-- his message is what reform and renewal all the time. is he going to but-- but most people when they ask that, i don't know if this is driving your question. but most people mean will he change church doctrine. that he can't do. we have to remember again the job description of the pope is to preserve, to conserve the integrity of the faith, and pass it on. now, he might, what's the word you used. >> rose: reform. >> he might reform ways that's done. he might kind of stress particular-- particular doctrines of the church that perhaps haven't been stressed as much in the past. but he's not going to tamper with the immutable teaching of the past but he sure will reform the way it is presented. >> will he reform the power that has been in rome and the roman curia and-- because he comes from use of that. >> yes. >> rose: to that balance

will change. >> you all know, i'm not telling you anything new this is your business. but it's no secret that there is a general sentiment among the leadership in the church that the roman curia, the central government of the catholic church does need some attention. and that the oil of the machinery of the church universal needs some oiling, okay. and some cleaning and some attention. >> so what does he -- >> i think will do that. and you may be on to something as we've chosen a man who is coming from without. >> rose: he's 76. is he a transitional pope or a new beginning for the church. >> i would say new beginning and keep in mind whenever we've said transitions from the past we get burned. you remember john 23rd. he was 77 when he was elected. and he only had four and a half years but he got a vatican consult, how well you remember. even benedict, remember, we thought ah, we elected a guy at 78 and he is going to have maybe four or five

years of just kind of reaffirming and telling us what pope john paul ii taught us. and de a lot more than that. so now we've got a 76-year-old pope whose's invigorous health thanks be to god. i hope god gives him a good-- and i think -- >> can change the church in a decade. >> yeah. i mean in cooperation with god's grace. >> there's also this, this notion that he's being compared to pope john 23rd, on the one hand, commitment to the poor. and also, and reform. and also to john paul ii. >> because he has the respect of conservatives. is he part john 23rd and part john paul iind. >> could be, see. we always, people who observe the church are always amazed that popes usually are dock turnly very traditional to use the word conservative, i don't like labels but that is the word.

that shouldn't surprise us, that's their job. but when it comes to social issues, care for the poor, then they tend to be much more to 9 reforming side. and i think john paul -- >> is that way. >> and i think he's there. he's a man that would blend the two. some have said that pope francis has got the mind of a benedict and the heart of a john paul ii. >> you do not expect to see as you didn't with pope benedict or pope john paul ii doctrinal changes in the ordination of women, on sell brass-- celibacy, on divorce. >> is it okay if i make a distinction. you know, because did you what a lot of people do. doctrine can't change, so to use the word doctrinal changes for a catholic is almost an oxymoron. there are things that a pope can change that would not be doctrine but more matters of church discipline. we can remember, you and i, i know are you younger than i am, but you can remember when a pope changed the

discipline of no meat on friday, right. that wasn't's god's law. god's law is that we do penance but god's law isn't that-- so he could do that you mentioned another one, priestley celibacy. priestley celibacy is not a doctrine of the church, it's a discipline of the church. i do expect him to change it, no. could he change it, yes. possible, yes, probable, no. but there is that distinction. our nation of women, that's a doctrinal thing, that's to the discipline. >> rose: how do you respond to the fact that this really is the century of women, and this is a church that needs to have women as part of its -- >> sure, well i tell you this. when we walked into the sistine chapel, you all probably carried it live. we were saying the litany. saints. now the highest you can be called to in the catholic church is to be a saint. and of the saints that we prayed, more than half were women. so so the woman who is the greatest human being model, the person who is the greatest human being model for us happened to be a

model. that's where the church is at her best. that's where -- that's where the church has always been known for lifting women up, in nobling them. >> rose: let me close with this last question. i think you said that he said to the fellow cardinals as he was elected, to be pope and accepted it, i hope you didn't make a mistake. >> he said that, actually, charlie, tonight at supper. we had a very friendly fraternal meal at the st. martha's house afterwords. and we gave him a toast expressing our love and he lifted his glass and said first i hope you get a good night sleep, you deserve it. and secondly, i toast you and may god forgive you. it brought the house down. >> rose: thank you, sir, you have many obligations. >> good to be with you. >> rose: thank you very much. james "whitey" bulger was boston's most notorious criminal. he lead the winter hill gang, let to 19 murders from the 1970s to 80s. for years in what is considered the great failures in federal law

enforcement bulger was given protection by the fbi for being an informant. in 1995 he was tipped off by an fbi official, made the top ten post wanted list and became america's most famous fugitive. 16 years later he was caught in santa mondayia-- santa monday ca, california, now he is awaiting his trial in june when will be facing charges in connection with his charges of 19 murders. joining me kevin cullen and shelley murphy, they covered whitey bulger for over 25 years and have written a book about him called whitey bulger he are, america's most wanted gangster and the man that brought him to justice, also joining me john miller senior correspondent for cbs news and my colleague on cbs news this morning. welcome. >> thanks, charlie. >> rose: great to have you here. >> this is from the federal judge today. he ruled that gangster james "whitey" bulger cannot present evidence to a jury about his claim that he was given immunity for future crimes including murder. so we'll learn more about him from this conversation. how do you think he is approaching this trial? >> what's his mine set?

>> he can't wait for it. shelley and hi access to his letters that he's written, he's quite a jail correspondent. and he is really looking forward to his day in court because he's going to take the stand which is very unusual. somebody charged with murder, you generally don't take the stand. but he can't wait to. as he calls it in the letters, he calls this the big show, the big circus. and he wants more than anything, charlie, he wants to refute the narrative, the narrative that he's somebody who informed on his friends, killed people, and killed two women. he says he really wants to say i was never an informer. and i never killed those women. and this is not about getting acquitted. this is about getting even. it's very boston. >> rose: characterize him for me. >> well, i mean, he's very charismatic guy. i think that if he was just pure evil and all we knew from the bad things there wouldn't be really very much interest in him. but he managed through much of his life to cultivate this reputation as the good gangster so that in southie for a lot of years people

thought that he really was some sort of robin hood figure who kept drugs out. and of course what we found over the years is that he really was taking tribute from drug dealers and actually at one point was in a car delivering cocaine to the projects in southie. but i think he worked very hard to create this image of himself as a good guy. and that's what he will be fighting for in his trial, his reputation. >> rose: all right. 16 years on the lam. >> finally caught in santa monica. and he said was it a cat that he said -- >> yeah, he said a cat caught him. >> how did they capture him. >> well, you know, the first two years we try to explain this. i don't believe the fbish was looking for him. in fact they assigned the search for him to the very organized crime squad that he had corrupted. so by the time he got out to santa monica he was really-- the trail had gone completely cold and then legitimate serious law enforcement people were looking for him, they couldn't find him.

and then the task force was actually very big at one point. but by 2010 it was really effectively down to an fbi agent. and a deputy u.s. marshal named neil sullivanment and they decided, they had this thinkfest and they said you know, we keep looking for bulger but it looks like every irish american guy there town. so why don't we try to focus on the woman, katherine drake, his companion with him the whole time. so we put these public service announcement together. and then they put it in a number of markets but they actually didn't put it in l.a. it wasn't in the l.a. market but cnn did a story about the effort. and a woman who had known them from santa monica was sitting in her apartment, in iceland. and she says that's caroll gasgow. and the reason she would have recognized him, that she had a relationship with kathy gregg who she knew as carol because cathy took care of the stray cat in the neighborhood. and she loved cats too. she actually wrote a book

about katsd so when she saw the picture, she says that's them. and she calls the fbi in los angeles, they call-- they send a report up to boston and neil sullivan sort of was intrigued by it. because they were ticking off boxes. he said the tip ster said the woman was nice. the guy was nasty. and he said wait a minute. and they flew out there, and you know, after looking for him for 16 years and not finding him this thing happened really fast. in one of the funny things we found in this letter, whitey always vowed he was going to go out in a blaze of glory. he's not going to go back to prison.."r and there was a scene, a very dramatic scene in which he refuu$s, when the cops surrounded him, they lured him out not garage,." down, you knewñvi, or we'll shoot. and he wouldn't get down on which you say wow that is a really defiant thing to do. but in the letters we saw, he said the reason he wouldn't get down on his knees is because when he looked on to the garage it

was stained with oil & gas.nx his pants dirty vments-9 >> in the parking lot they said get down, get down on the ground. he said hey, i'm wearing white pants. and you know, these young agents had nevers7 encountered anybody who, i mean, youé@ >> rose: they don't call him whitey for nothing. john, detail forgñ us the relationship with the fbi. >> well, i think you have to take a shelley was talking about. is whitey bulger was a very machiavellian guy and a master manipulate never many waysjf,my where, at least he sw himself that way. if you look at him from aq 360 degree angle, he wasn't selling drugs, he wasnb dealers. he wasn't running gambling operationy operations had to pay him. and rather than the model that an fbi agent goes out and recruits and informant and then exploits informant, i think what whitey did he was"n

an fbi agent and exploited that fbi agent iné@zvd instance he seemed to turn the conventional model and that's exactly what he did with thejfú the fbi would tell you that they ran whitey bulger as a from the high echelon program for, you know5ar dozen years. whitey bulger would fell you, i ran an fbi agent as my informant. i gave him information that i knew he already knew or that wasesqmyop&h and in turn, we got to find out everything that was and unfortunately-- . >> j7óe: and÷ñ3wmy detection and arrest. >> avoide ÷r" >> and kill a lot of people along the way so itvqrfcuhav was a bad chapter for the fbi and one wheremyéjzk?ñ.;>"0 to really rewrite the book on the handling of >> rosu: and what have they acknowledged? >> well, to these guys who have covered the civil cases but acknowledged, is

certainly-- they've been onzme of these cases where the families of whitey bulger'snbóñ certainly with the agozv technologied-- acknowledged tacitly by rewriting its informant guidelines isñ knees had to be tightened up. the old model was basic. which is you truth the agent who is running that informant to return everything up the chain and that is good enough. the new model is that that +1jgé@ audited and looked at and signed off by a number of peoplenz÷." up thatc chain. but you know, from the time that white9÷ the reporáz of his information or that he information were being run right up to the."çód echelons of the fbi and the department of justice. reported up the chain was that he was not just6zm the criminal operations they expected, sharking, but that he was committing murders based on information that the corrupt fbi who was supposedly running

him, although i think it wasq giving him. >> rose: let's t him. first of all, his brother is a former president of the massachusetts senate and university of massachusetts? >> correct, yes. he was one ofzo7 tt most-- billy bulger one of the most powerful politicians inx1p relationship between the two. >> very close, very close. in fact, billy, you his position is he's my brother./(r love him.ñ=ñg3s i and i stand by him. and-- . >> rose: stand by him meaning -- >> he shows up in court,fá when whiteym'm,a is in court billy is there in the front row, billy isfáb. visibmy6z m in jail. and frankly, i think billy,-9t( he-- i think there is some denial that his brother could have done these awfulnby with. >> we found that billy was really important toé@ when he could put away for bank roob ree in&n0 billy was his protector on the outside. he really lined incredible stable

influential supporters which included house speaker john mccormick who actually grew up in the same neighborhood. >> rose: u.s. house speaker. >> and we found out=/% whennb shelley and i did the research that whitey had a sort of priso.ñny>jkñwf and this this guy actually became his parole advisor.fáfá and helped him get parole. his name was robert dryman. then the dean of the law school at boston college later congressman, including the first congressman. >> the first guy-- so billy helped get this sort of stable of very influential supporters and i think whitey got out after nine years of a 20r but i think what6gqez more important for that episode is thatym whitey realized that the perception of power was just as important as the exercise of it. and that it really helped to have politicians in your pocket also that's a lesson henry kissinger suggests as well. >> i think if you look at the less than sus el or more sus elways, even when there

was a new fbi superviser who came into fwons and said we're going to straight then whole thing out and he was pushing to drop whitey from the informant program saying you kno.ñ,m trouble, he had a very interesting meeting in in the massachusetts senate we are said you know, you should enjoy yourself in boston. and you should think about your future, you know, you're to the going to be an fbi guy forever. after that we can get you a nice job with the state so he never said, and by the way, don't drop my brother as an informant. but it was just a very unusual meeting to be talking about somebody a f brand-new guy in charge of tj.t your brother who was running, you know, organized crime on the south end of boston. >> rose: he used to romant advertise-- it's easy to romant size him. >> we try not to. when shelley and i sat down to write this book, at one level we said there have probably been too many books about whitey bulger. but by the same token, i

think he was sort of a one-dimensional cut out character, almost a caricature of his pathology will -- pathology. we wanted to put skin on the mythical bones, who is he. when you say he is a monster, that kind of means there is no more to say if he is a monster. he is a man. >> rose: evil man. >> we didn't diminish his crimes by any stretch of the imagination. but we wanted to figure out what made him tick. obviously the fbi protecting you helps but he had to have something. he had to have charisma. because as i think shelley, we were talking about this earlier, one of his associates said if whitey wanted to you like him, you would like him. >> rose: if he didn't, you were in trouble. >> what's the most gruesome thing he did, there is the story of choking the young woman in front of two of his friends. >> i think those are the most gruesome stories. well, really, many of them. >> i think the torture, the personal torture he took part in of some of the informants goes beyond.

>> chaining john mcintyre to i a chair and questioning him for hours. same thing with another victim, trying to find out where his money was hidden, for hours questioning him. and then leaving him. >> rose: that is not torture, questioning him. >> then leaving him --. >> it was built in. i mean to leave him there, well, thinking, you know, this guy bucky barrett, he knew that -- did -- he knew he was going to die. and they left him there for hours asking him about you know, drug running and where money was hidden and then left him to go collect money at his house where he had kept his money. he actually had to call his home and say to his wife, you know, leave the house with our young baby. and she left. and whitey and his partner phlegmy allegedly went to the house, got the money, went back and then ki8d him, after they rounded up all the money. >> rose: shoot him or what. >> yeah, they shot him in the head. but whitey had this reputation, he would strangle a woman and then lie down and take a nap. >> yeah that was some of the stuff that was really

disturbing, almost the mundane nature. he carried this out almost as if he was going to work. and you know, i mentioned he is charged with several cases of shooting someone in the back of the head. and yet we found when he was on the run, when he was in louisiana, he was befriended a family down there, some cajun family. and it was a situation where the puppy had to be put down. and he couldn't watch the dog be shot. and when the dog was shot, the report of the gun, he started weeping. so you had, he's crying over a dpauing that was put down. >> rose: how de figure this out. >> i'm not a psychologist, charlie, i just play one in my newspaper column. >> i find it kind of-- i find if fijd it interesting that now he's writing from jail that he's the one who, you know, is the victim of his government. how cold and heartless the government is and how dare they, you know, sentence my girlfriend 208 years in prison for helping me-- 8 years in prison. >> i don't understand this conundrum and maybe you can help me out. but first he denies he was ever an informant.

and now he says they promised him immunity so if they wasn't an informant y did they tell him you can go commit all these crimes. either way you take, it's confusing am but he's a guy who thinks everything out. >> absolutesly. >> so how de think this one out. does he have an alternative explanation where this work sths. >> i have a theory that what he is going to argue, that they-- nothing was done by the book. so he's going to say i didn't sign this off. i didn't do this. i think he's looking for a technical-- the one thing you have to remember about whitey, he always thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. so he's going to come up with some kind of explanation, but you're right, john, these things are mutually exclusive. you can't-- why would he be an informant and not have immunity why would he have inform in-- immunity if he was not an informant. it doesn't make sense. there is a lot of grandiosity in there when we are reading the letters, he compares himself to philip nolan, the protagonist from the edward everett, a man without a country. and i would suggest he's more like gypo.

>> the book is called whitey bulger america's most wanted gangster and a manhunt that brought him to justice. thank you. >> thanks, dharlie. >> thank you, charlie. >> my friend, great to you have. back in a moment. stay with us. tina packer the founding artistic director 6 shakespeare & company, a renowned theatre and education center in lenox, massachusetts, she has lived and breathed shakespeare for over five decades. her insight into his work runs the full gamut. she directed over 50 play, acted in countless roles and taught the canon at colleges across the country. women of will is her touring production. and she's been refining that for the last 15 years. sme uses brief lectures and performance of key scenes to explore shakespeare through the evolution of his female characters. here she is with her costar nigel gore delivering kate's final speech of submission from taming of the shrew.

>> thy husband is fhy lord, thy life, thy sovereign, one that-- and for thy maintenance, committed body to pay for labor both by sea and land. to watch the nights, the day cold, warm at home secure and safe and kraves no other triboughts at thy hand but love, fair looks an true o bed yens, too little-- i can't say this. >> i can't say this, can i have some lights please. i can't say this because from where i stand, the 21st century woman, what i see is that kate has had her food taken away from her, her clothes taken away from her, she has not been allowed to go where she wants to go. and the worst thing of all she has had her language taken away from her. she has to say as protruchio

says, or they will never go. so i think by the end of taming of the shrew kate would either be manic or she would have gone to-- just like marilyn monroe in order to avoid the whole issue, or she would be clinically depressed. i'm pleased to have tina parker at this table for the first time, welcome. >> thank you. >> when did you fall in love with william shakespeare. >> well, i guess at a very early age because i used to go to stratford, you know, on school shout outings and things like that and ski still to this day remember barbara jeff doesford running across the stage and things like that. blue it-- when i was at the royal academy, you know, i was a kind of working class girl from nottingham so she didn't think i should be doing shakespeare which i thought i should be doing. but i almost, it was kind of almost like a, well, you know, was i-- i wasn't the norm for a shakespeare actor in those days. you know, albert finny and

tom courtenay could all do work class accents and do shakespeare but the women couldn't. and so it didn't last very long because i went to almost immediately to the royal spax spear. but it was-- i had to get over the hump of thinking yes, of course i was a shakespeare actor. you know, my passion lives and i grow with shakespeare. so i, once i started doing shakespeare i never really wanted to do anybody else. >>. >> why did you decide to do what you are doing in terms of women of will to explore shakespeare through his female characters. >> well, when i was a young actor, you know, and played some of the female roles, i would always be in a terrible struggle because my perception of what was going on was not always what the directors, male directors idea of what was going on. and so i switched to directing so that i could really explore what did i mean. i was getting a bad reputation as an actressment

she's so stoppy. and so i started directing the plays. and it was through directing the plays that i started realizing when i was about two-thirds of the way through the canon i started realizing that in fact shakespeare's changed deeply in his attitude towards women over his writing lifetime. and that in fact i felt you could hear shakespeare's own voice through the women about when es-- well, it's really with july yet he begins. that's when you really get shakespeare inside, if i can put it like that, embodying women as oppose-- opposed to writing about women. and so once i started seeing that there was a progression and by the time he gets to the end of plays, you know, the late plays he actually says look, the only way out of the val ant cycle is to follow what the women are doing and the creative spirit but there is an alignment between women and

the creative spirit and that's thousand we get out of the cycle vallance. >> rose: you argue that shakespeare went through five phases. >> yes. >> rose: this is the core of what you do. >> the core of what i am doing, yes. >> rose: five phases in his betrayal of women. >> yes. >> rose: i want to talk about each phase. the first phase is the warrior women from violence to negotiation. >> yes. so very young mr. shakespeare writes two kinds of women. he writes shrets that have to be tamed, you have to shut them up and keep them quiet. and he writes about innocence, the virgins on the pedestal. so you see he's very young, you know, he's doing the usual kind of projection on to women. but what happens, and i think it's because he writes the henry 6th and richard iii, there's such a long cycle of violence and he's following margaret through all four plays. what 457s is es starts seeing that he himself looks at women from the outside. and suddenly, i don't know

why it is, it might be because he fell in love or something like that, suddenly when you get to romeo and juliette he writes from the sign identify-- inside of wismt he embodies women. and suddenly the whole of his soul, if you will, is inside the woman. at that point the whole world shifts. because the women have priority with the men. and when women and men have parity and are in love, the whole world, it creates such powers that he can stop all kinds of violence. the third cycle is when he starts using women to tell the truth. so we are talking about as you like it in desdimona and o filia, and if the women stay in their frox, charlie, they're killed for telling the truth. or they run mad or commit suicide or all three. but if they disguise themselve, if they live underground, they organize everybody, they tell the truth. and the whole thing starts coming out right.

then the fourth cycle is when he goes into this deep despair about women as well as men, i feel. you know, which is when the women want exactly what the men want, you know, so they are grabbing on to power. you say this is despair. >> yeah, i think so. because i -- >> do women want the same thing that men want. >> yes, and they're not using what their attribute its which are deeply fem nim, which those attributes of relationship and intuition and feeling and thinking about the bigger picture all the time. you know, this is why in the end women have got to run the world because we think about the big picture all the time. >> what is the big picture. >> it means are you really trying to consider what everybody is thinking and feeling. and aligning it to each other. it's relational all the time. whereas what happens to the women in this period of despair is that they want the top job.

they want the money. they want to be where the action is and i think, you know, in our modern day, if women just do the same as the then, the world's going to be lost. you know this is political for me as well as poetical and philosophical. >> really. >> but if you, if you, if the women just become, you know, versions of men or better versions of men, we're all lost. you know, and that's where shakespeare gets to, so that foresection is called chaos has come again. and then the fifth section is called the maiden phoenix, the daughter redeemed the father. and it's about how the young girls who are mostly brought up in nature, redeem the sins of the father. but there's always got to be creative spirit there. a witch called pauline or ariel, the creative spirit and tempest who is actually working at finding a way, creatively, to bring it

forward. and one good man. we have to have one good man standing with the women. and then it works. >> you also say that shakespeare focused on the entire story as opposed to the mottif. >> yes, what happens in the late place, he goes to miss time, joseph campbell time, a fairy tale, is whatever. because i-- really think he's trying to say what is the story. i can tell which will actually show the way out of the vallance. you know, when he began writing all those len ree the 6th plays he was just kroining elling what the vallance was. by the time we get to the end he's saying we've got to tell a story on a different level, the veil has got to be lifted, if you will. and we've got to tell the story which will allow humanity to actually find a way. >> a little laddy macbeth. do you believe that shakespeare defem inized

her? >> she unsexes herself. and i think what happens is you know, she unsexes herself in order to do what she needs to do. you know, she's still got mill income her breasts for god's sake. so she needs to be what she perceives is, you know, she let my knife not see the wound it makes, you know. i don't want to feel it. and so by unsexes her self-, she thinks she's going to be her dearest partner in greatness with macbeth and actually it divides them. and she ceases to have any insight after that charlie she talks in platitudes. s whattee done is done. you know, she keeps on talking in, you know, don't think about it, she doesn't have any insight after she started doing these terrible things. and so the only way she can express what she's doing is by running mad. and then she does tell the

trt about what they've been up to, you know, in her mad scene. >> her is harold bloorjs you know harold bloom from yale. >> yeah. >> on shakespeare treatment of men and women. way back in 1998. >> he was not terribly interested in action. he was no arist-- he was immensely fascinated by men and by women. and i think he taught us more. naturally it is the invention of the human. where else do you learn that the ultimate dense between menl and women is that on the whole women are compelled to mary down, not because of social convention, not because of social constrictions, but simply because for the most part the best among them are better than the best among us. that's hardly a feminist remark on my part. but shakespeare is fiercely perceptive, i think,ed inadequacy of men as

compared to women. he's somehow understood that it takes, that a woman could be at 14 or , emotionally and spiritually and in terms of generosity fully mature. and that it took men 60 or 70 years and then all they were really good for was to die. >> do you agree wefering harold said. >> not everything. but actually i do agree with him about the invention of the human. i really do. i mean because that's what i know has happened. >> i know has happened to me. >> that i have become more human through doing shakespeare's plays. in other words, i've discovered who i am through doing the plays and things i didn't know about myself before. >> what did you discover about yourself. >> well that i could be extremely valiant for kickoff and that i could get -- >> violent. >> violent, yes, yes. >> when was the last act of violence you committed. >> last night on stage. i did. but i mean i really can-- i

know that i like it, charlie. >> rose: oh, dow. >> oh, yes. i wouldn't do it in life or i would try never to do it in life. >> rose: but you know the feeling of it and it satisfies you. >> and it is deeply satisfying. deeply satisfying. >> rose: why? >> because, it's like-- . >> rose: control, power. >> yes, it's the power. it's the adrenaline going. you're at one with your rage and anger. and it feels right slow. >> rose: is if also sexual. >> yes, it's very sexual rdz which of shakespeare's characters, female characters best represents his idealization of women? >> well, i think, i think the most honest one is rossalind in a way because she tries out almost every a motion under god's earth and she's always exploring. and always kind of-- but i would say paulinea in winter's tale is the

probably the woman he admires the most. that she is so honest and she's so brave. and she's very creative. and she's going to go for it and she's a kind of mother lover figure. >> people who want to hear and see all the things we've been talking about women of will, where would they go. >> right now at the gym at jetson. on washington square. >> you will be there until june 2nd. >> yeah, and we're going to do all five parts starting the beginning of april. you know, so people can come and sigh all five of them. before then we're doing the overview which is an introduction. >> women of will. >> thank you. >> june 2nd at the jetson gym costarring nigel gore and directed by eric tucker. >> thank you. >> back in a moment. stay with us. lawrence wright is here, author of going clear. scientology, hollywood and the prison of belief. his book takes us inside the workings of the church of scientology.

it examines the history of the religion beginning with its origins in the mind of l ron hubbard. lawrence wright has long been fascinate 3wid religious fervour. he won the pulitzer prize for his book al qaeda, the looming tower. i am pleased to have him back on this program, welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: there was a money shan show, everything. why this for you? >> well, i've always been interested in religious beliefs, as you know. and scientology, particularly curious religion. >> rose: no question in your mind it is a rigion although some people have questioned that. >> well, ex-members call it a cult. i think there's only one opinion that matters. >> rose: yeah. >> and that's the irs. and they made that determination in 1993, under siege by an avalanche of suits from scientology, 2400 lawsuits against the irs and individual agents that were dropped as a result of the the agreement to give the church of scientology's tax

exemption. and ever since then it is a religion, regardless of what you think. >> rose: tell me about scientology. how did it start? what does it teach? >> scientology grew out of l ron hubbard's philosophy. started with dianetics, a book he wrote in 1950. huge. >> rose: sold millions of copies. >> it sort of set the standard for all the self-help books that came along later. and then, but, and he made a lot of money out of that. but then he went broke. he didn't know how to capitalize on it. so he started a religion. which is a different thing, scientology t the idea is that scientology will show you that you are an eternal being, satan as they say in scientology, that are you not the body or the mind that you inhabit now but su have lived many lifetimes before and will you live again. and you can learn this through process of auditing, which is kind of like therapy with a semi lie

detector. and for many people, paul is an example but many others that i talked to, at the early stages, in those auditing processes, they tend to get something out of it. >> rose: what do they get out of it? >> well, the news that they have lived before is good news. you know, you-- that are you immortal. and others have had the experience of going exterior, as they say in scientology. they have an out of body experience. and that, again, is very confirming proof that they are separate from their bodies. and if that's happened to you, then the logic or, of what critics might say about scientology may not affect you. >> rose: so what happened to hubbard after he wrote the book? >> he started the church of scientology in los angeles. and it was in los angeles for a reason. he wanted to take over the entertainment industry. and the celebrity center

that they started in hollywood was done with that goal. they were always looking for celebrities as spokespeople who would front for its church. and-- . >> rose: for credibility. >> absolutely. >> rose: tom cruise clearly the biggest they ever recruited. >> yes. i mean he's the big fish that they always wanted to real. in and they finally got one. >> rose: and what is his relationship, and what does he do for the chrufern? >> well, it's like a product endorsement. you know, tom cruise is the most visible scientolog scientology-- scientologist ever. and the fact that he has been the number one box office star in the world, makes it real impression on young people that might be wanting to go into, might be wanting to find out more about it. if you have a star like that saying this works. this works for me, then other people are going to be interested. >> rose: has he brought other people in? >> oh, according to the church-- oh, i'm sure that he has. but according to the church, you know, billions of people have heard his message.

and no doubt a lot of people have. >> rose: and the abuses people talk about are what? >> inside the church hierarchy, at the very highest levels, people have been, a number of people have been beaten. i've had 12 people tell me they have been physically beaten by the leader of the church, david-- and 20 people have witnessed those things. he wasn't the only one doing it. but there seems to be a culture of violence inside the church, more over-- . >> rose: a fear, do you think, of going -- >> discovered or being misunderstood? or understood? >> i think it's an exercise in control. >> yeah. >> and intimidation. because not only has he had a history according to ex-members of beating them up, many of the top level management of the qhufern have been confined, you know, there's a dessert compound in southern california which is the international

headquarters of the sea org. they're clergy. and inside that is a, there are two double wide trailers that are married together. and more than 100 people, the top management have been confined in their. some of them for years like the nominal president of the church. has been in the hole for seven years. >> rose: what do you think hubbard's appeal was? >> well, he was a very compelling figure in person, apparently. a great or a tore. a folkssy or a tore we would say. and he was not well educated in a normal sense. he dropped out of college after two years. but he had a way of talking to people and giving them a sense of hope. because he was delivering a message really of salvation. in that sense he's not a lot different from a whole long history in this country of charismatic spiritual

leaders. >> and what about david, he was a long time assistant who became the top guy. >> he joined the sea org when he was 16. 4e been in scientology even before that. so his entire life, his entire adult life and much of his entire life has been spent inside the clergy of the scientology. >> but he was the opponent successor. >> no, he was not appointed. someone else was appointed. he became the successor because he seized power. >> there was a coup day that within the church. >> right. >> who was he or what is he like. >> i was not allowed it to talk to him. and he has actually hasn't given an interview in 20 years. so he is a very reclusive figure. he lives mostly inside this compound. he travels to open up new churches when they do that. but he's very skittish about the press. and the reports that i have, he's infencely controlling,

he's dynamic. he has a car is ma-- charisma but he exercises total control over this church. there sell only one person that runs scientology. >> that's david -- >> yes. >> and have there been threats against you, intimidations against you, have they tried to stop from you writing his book. >> impneumerable threats but you know. >> de actually sue you? >> no just threats that they would do that. >> just threats. >> and what do they have to fear from this book. >> well, there are two expecting narratives, for instance, l ron hubbard's life, and one narrative is that he was a glorious veteran of world war ii who was badly wounded. he was crippled and blinded and he healed himself of these techniques that he developed in the dianetics. and out of that grew the church of scientology. then there's another narrative composed of official records and testimony of people who knew him who say these was never injured in the war.

you know, the mill ne'er-- military records shows that he had conjunctivitis but he was not really blinded. and he was never really injured in the war. so all of this narrative of you know the heroic figure that kind of shaman like figure that arose out, you know, out of world war ii, post world war ii period is contradicted by this other narrative. if you are interested in the history of the church and in the behavior of what's going on inside the church right now, that's what this book tells us. it would be eye-opening, i think, to anybody who has an interest in scientology. >> but what do they fear that you might disclose? >> i think that their greatest fear is opening up anything about the church's practices. >> what is it about the chferns practices that they think would do great harm to the church if they were known. >> what they are most fearful of in this campaign

against me right now is the abuses committed by the leader. >> what kind, abuses in terms of physical. >> physical abuse and involuntary confinement of members. i think another thing that people will be shocked about is the treatment of children inside the church. children are recruited it into the sea org. their clergy at very young ages. and what they endure can be really shocking. i talked it to a young man named daniel-- who joined when he was 11 years old. and he went to clear water where there is a spiritual base. and she was recruit nood cleaning up the asbestos in the hotel they bought there. he said he got no protective equipment and while he was there he was a page for tom cruisement and he was not the only child. but he later, when he was 16 years old in one of their printing plants was cutting notches in a thumb notches

in a book. and he chopped off a finger. and child labor laws in california are such that he should never have been around heavy machinery. and he should have been in school. so i'm a little puzzled about where the child labor laws are in respect to the children that have been impressed into duty in the -- >> would tom cruise talk to you. >> no, no. i repeatedly asked for the opportunity to talk to him, john travolta and others. and so all of our responses have been through their attorneys. >> and they just simply say they have nothing to say. >> not to me. >> in acknowledgment. you end by saying that was just before christmas 1985, hubbard died a few weeks later of an unrelated stroke. the beliefers are still waiting for his return. do they expect him to return in a kind of --. >> yes, in scientology, in some ways it's like the dalai lama, there's a sense that the leader will return. and he, hubbard actually propagated that idea himself

that he was going to be offline as he said for about 20 years and he would return so there was a sense that the leader was going to come back. there's actually all of his offices, and residen resident-- residences have, they make his bed, they change his sheets, they sut out his table setting,. they're waiting for him to reappear any day. his notebook, his cigarettes, everything is there waiting for him. >> going clear, scientology, hollywood and the prison of belief. lawrence wright. pulitzer prize winning author of the looming tower. thank you for joining us. see you next time.

>> funding for charlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 200 --. >> and american express. additiona funding provided by these funders captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

this is "nightly business

report" with tyler mathisen. >> a perfect ten. the dow registers its first ten-day win streak since 1996 and posts another all-time high. the s&p is just 2 points away. new treasury secretary jack lew weighs in on the markets and the american economy. his interview just ahead. and the tsa under fire. the growing backlash over knives on planes. what every traveler needs to know. good evening, everyone, and welcome to our public television viewers. suzy, the market beat goes on and on. >> it's like the energizer bunny. it just keeps going and going. the dow marches on higher for the tenth day in a row, the first time since 1997 -- 1996. it ended at 14,539. the nasdaq added 14 and the broader s&p 500 gained almost 9 points, and it's now just 2 points away from its own record

high close. there is some concern that the rise in the markets may have been too high too fast. and this could be the start of a market bubble. but newly installed treasury secretary jack lew tells steve liesman not so. >> the analysis i've seen doesn't give me reason to be worried right now. >> we'll have more of steve's interview with the treasury secretary in just a few minutes. as the dow hits unprecedenteded heights and the s&p 500 nears its own peak tantalizingly close to it, there's a battle below the surface that could determine which way stocks go from here. jackie deangelis explains. >> reporter: the bulls are at it again. another day, another all-time high for the dow. but despite the impressive run, there's an underlying tug-of-war being played out in the u.s. economy. >> we had a couple of huge risks hanging over the global economy for the last year. china had the hard landing, the euro break-