>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with the crisis in egypt and talk to michael hanna, steven cook, and frank wisner. >> the interim government that came in is committed to a road map to get egypt back on the road to democracy, so we are watching a very fast-breaking situation. but i would be very hesitant before i jumped to a conclusion, charlie, that we're looking at another syria or some massive breakdown. egypt is not of that nature. but this could be days in revolving itself and i won't have a neat end. >> rose: we continue with steven cohen looking at u.s./russian relations after president obama canceled his visit to moscow to meet with president putin (in international affairs people say putin is anti-american. i say no, he's non-american. he has a foreign policy from europe to the middle east that's

different from america. he takes pride in that and on the basis of that he's made allies. to give snowden, a highly symbolic figure given the surveillance issue would have collided with what putin's done in international affairs. but at home he has a political elite. forget society. the political elite didn't want him to make this concession to the united states. >> rose: we conclude with julian guthrie, a journalist who has written a book about larry ellison called "the billionaire and the mechanic." it details the story of his quest for the america's cup. >> and it was expected that larry would partner with a better-known yacht club on san francisco's waterfront, the st. francis yacht club. and there's a fun story in the book about what happened or what didn't happen between the st. francis and larry ellison. but it's a story that doesn't come along very often and i became became very enamored with the drama of the two men before

i became interested in the america's cup. >> rose: egypt, russia and the america's cup when we continue. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> rose: we begin tonight with egypt. a state of emergency has been declared following a crackdown on supporters of president mohamed morsi. scores of people were killed after security forces moved into two protest camps today. two journalists, including sky news cameraman mick danee are among the dead. video of the clashes showed scenes of violence and destruction. >> today's events are deplorable and they run counter to egyptian aspirations for peace inclusion, and genuine democracy. egyptians inside and outside of the government need to take a step back. they need calm the situation and avoid further loss of life. >> rose: egypt's interim vice president, mohammed elbaradei has resigned in the crackdown.

as he road to the president "beneficiaries of what happened today are those who call for violence, terrorism and the most extreme groups." the white house has strongly condemned the violence in a statement. joining us on the phone from cairo is michael hanna, he is a senior fellow at the century foundation. from washington, steven cook, a senior fellow for middle eastern studies at the council on foreign relations. and here in new york, frank wisner. he is a former u.s. ambassador to egypt and served as president obama's envoy to the country in 2011. let me begin with michael hanna. tell me what's going on on the ground as we speak which is late in the evening in egypt. >> at this point a curfew is setting in, a state of emergency has been declared and it's obviously been a very chaotic and bloody day, many disturbing images emerging that all emerge from the decision to disperse the protests of the pro-morsi

camps in two locations in cairo. that disperseal has been undertaken by force and has produced a high number of casualties. as of yet that number is not precisely fixed but it's a number that i think is going to shock a lot of people whenever it is fixed. >> rose: can you give a sense of what shocking people means? >> well, i think it's going to be over a hundred easily and i think what we saw what we saw in egypt was the initial move by the security forces to try to clear the protests. the use of snipers. there was also a response from within the camp-- and this is something that's contested-- how violent that response was, the types of weapons that were used. obviously military and the government are portraying a very violent reaction from the pro-morsi camp and it's unclear really what kind of reaction it

was but, again, we have a disproportionate use of force and looking at the casualties on both sides, again, we have a picture of dispreportion gnat use of force. i will add one point here. that is that the country saw a whole host of reprisals million targeting christian churches, businesses and homes throughout the country and violent spreading to other cities within egypt as well. >> rose: so what is the expectation for tomorrow? >> well, tonight, i mean i think fighting will continue. the main protest area is not fully clear yet. tlt protesters there are trying to hold out. so much -- some of the senior muslim brotherhood leaders appear to have been arrested but this continues and i think the

brotherhood has made it a priority to hold their ground as an attempt to maintain the le reg they believe this sit in provides for them. >> what does that leverage give them a sense? what is their end game? >> i don't think anybody has end games right now. i think serve caught up in the immediate violence. there's very little opening, i think, for deescalatory measures. i think there was a sense last week that a u.s. e.u.-led initiative might hold the possibility for deescalatory steps that might create a path for political negotiations. i think t hopes for that a long way off at this point and deescalation seems very distant at the moment. >> rose: you know some of the players over there as well as

knowing the country very well. where do you think we are in terms of this dramatic change that has taken place in egypt starting with the overthrow of mubarak and with the election of morsi and what many people call a coup against morsi by the army and now this. >> yes. well, egypt's obviously been on a roller coaster since the events started in the spring of 2011 in tahrir square. you've gone through a period of army control, you had general elections, presidential elections, ms. lick brothers came to power. they then conduct themselves in a manner that offends a great many egyptians. the crowd surge on the streets earlier this summer and the military steps back in and you now have an interim civilian government -- >> rose: and now a state of emergency. >> and now a state of emergency. the interim government that came

in is committed to a road map to get egypt back on the road to democracy. so we are watching a very fast-breaking situation. but i would be very hesitant before i jumped to a conclusion that we're looking at another syria or some massive breakdown, egypt is not of that nature but this could be days in resolving itself and it won't have a neat end. >> rose: i'm going come back to u.s. options. steve, what's your assessment of this so far? we talked about egypt a number of times before. >> well, i think this is a dramatic turn. i certainly agree ambassador wisner that we're not likely looking at a similar situation as what we've seen unfold in syria over the course of the last couple years. but i don't think that we can credibly say that the coup of july 3 or the events of today are putting egypt back on the path of democracy. i wonder whether egypt was on the path of democracy certainly

the events of january and february 2011, the uprising, the promise of tahrir square gave many people hope for democracy. but shortly within a number of months after that we have seen egypt rocked by one political crises after another, near economic collapse. it doesn't seem that any of the players-- although they talk about democracy, they certainly use the language of reform and democracy-- aren't truly interested in anything other than rigging the political system in their favor to the exclusion of others. it's certainly what morsi was trying to do and it certainly seems that whatever interim president adly mansour and egyptian spokespeople have said, they, too, have no real intention of pursuing an inclusive political process with the muslim brotherhood. >> rose: who's in control and what combination of people are making decisions? >> well, it's obviously a little opaque at the moment.

i think the interim president is clearly not someone who is a decision maker. we saw the resignation today of the vice president for international affairs, mohammed elbaradei, the former head of the i.a.e.a., a famous international figure with a lot of credibility and his resignation is telling. he lost the internal deliberations, the discussions about how to deal with the protest. he was against dealing with them violently. clearly at the moment the security services with the military in the lead are ascendant. and with this resignation i think veneer of civilian-led transition becomes much hard to maintain and i imagine there will be further civilian leaders resigning in the coming days. so, you know, i think it's clear a military-run moment. and they are the most powerful and coherent institution in the

country and particularly at a time of turmoil. >> rose: frank, what are the risks here? >> well, the risks are clearly if the situation cannot be brought under control and brought under control quickly that you could have a running level of violence that further disrupts egypt, imperils an already badly-weakened economy and makes it even more complex to find a political way forward, some form of consensus that takes egyptians on the road towards something we could live with and feel was a democratic outcome. i still believe that it is deeply in the military's interest to get through this period of violence in which they felt authority of the state was challenged and their own mandate was in question and get it back to where the civilians have to take responsibility for designing the transition, getting a constitution, and

holding electionings. so while the military is running the show at the moment in the face of violence, that's not where they want it to be and it clearly isn't where any of us would want them to be. >> rose: if it continues like this, what's the risk of people from outside would want to come in? >> well, syria's an awfully high bar. we don't to have a hundred thousand dead in the streets of egypt to have a serious disaster on our hands and the hands of the international community. i think we see clear indications of the social fabric fraying. dehumanization happening on both sides and the reprisals today in the low-level insurgency that is brewing in sinai we see, i think glimpses of the -- of a potential future where you have insurgent-type tactics, growing militancy and radical sags and

further down the line one could imagine foreign fighters attracted to a place like the sinai peninsula where militants seem to have gathered. so i don't think we have to set the bar at syria or the algerian civil war to imagine some very serious possibilities for egyptian society because this is an egyptian disaster and an egyptian mess and it doesn't have to be in reference to these very high bars set by civil wars in other countries. >> rose: what's the sectarian element here? >> the sectarian element is a serious one. the rumors apparently were on the street that the christians favored the crackdown and therefore there have been attacks on churches throughout egypt over the last 24 hours, burning churches and assaulting individuals. there is no doubt, however, the christian community feels that

its position is egypt is much safer in the hands of a more secular dispen sags with the military and the civilian leaders who are in power today. and that range it is them very quickly against a number of nose the muslim brotherhood camp. they face a very challenging period. >> rose: what are the u.s. options? >> the united states has very tough options. this is not an easy decision. we have vital interests in egypt. its role in the region. peace with israel. the weight of the largest country in the arab world on events that take place throughout the region. we have huge responsibilities needing to get through the suez canal, positioning ourselves in the region in cooperation with egypt. egypt has political weight. on the one hand. on the other american opinion finds it very, very difficult to

see a government in place that has to take the lives of its citizens. even when the lives are taken to restore order after prolonged period of negotiations. remember six weeks of negotiations have occurred to a point that you can reasonably say to yourself was there a negotiated conclusion or was there going to be a continued standoff that disrupted the life of the capital city? >> rose: what do you think about american options and what they might do, steve? >> well, i think our options are actually rather limited. egyptians are engaged in a struggle over the future of their country and as a result the stakes are quite high. they are as michael pointed out potentially confronting a low-level insurgency. it's -- how long will it take before members of the muslim brotherhood decide that they can only process their grievances through the force of arms? so i think there will be a lot

of discussion here in washington about american military aid, the sale of f-16s to egypt, the upcoming bright star military exercise which is the biggest joint military exercise in the world and whether those things should go forward. and whether they do or they don't i don't think it will materially affect the interests and calculations of general al-sisi, the leadership of the muslim brotherhood, the civilians of the interim government because the stakes are so high and they perceive themselves to be in a the fight for the heart and soul of egypt. >> rose: do you know general al sis any. >> no, i don't. >> rose: what do you know about people who know him? which you clearly to? >> well, general al-sisi is a very interesting figure and he rose very quickly to the top of the egyptian military. he's enormously powerful in the country now. his stated views-- as much as we

know them-- are a mix of egypt is a muslim country and its religious orientation needs to be respected. at the same time egypt is a diverse society with christians as well as mum licks living inside its borders with a place in the region and in the world that requires balance. where he broke with the muslim brothers, as best i can tell, was over their head-long rush to islam sooiz in a political sense the system in i jipt. and the fact that they were not prepared to open the doors to a consensus arrangement with so many tens of thousands of other egyptians, eventually millions, who took to the streets and al-sisi found himself the inhertor as egyptian officers will of the responsibility for the maintenance of the egyptian state and the egyptian order and

pressed to that outcome he took the action that he took on july 3. >> rose: do you think the united states has influence with him because of the long-standing military contact between the egyptian military and the american military? >> i believe we have great influence not only with him but with the current group of leaders and many other egyptians even though the united states is sharply criticized these days in egypt. our approval, our involvement, our concern is deeply sought after it's not so much the aid as it is our position and pour potential to be a friend of egypt when it comes time to gathering up the very badly broken egyptian economy. so egypt needs the united states. but at the same time, we need egypt. >> rose: michael, at this busy day, what's the big question for you as someone who's in the street? >> well, i mean, now what? is there an end game in mind?

because for me as opposed to limiting the chaos or limiting the possibility of violence this seems a recipe for metastasizing the violence, seeing it spread. and possibly hardening the gap in trust between all parties and so i think a security solution is not the proper tool for what is a political crisis at root and it's very difficult to see how this ameliorate it is current situation or leads to a plausible near-term outcome of stability. and so i wonder what is in the minds of egypt's leaders in terms of regaining normalcy. because i think the current path is not one that can do that. >> rose: and which question do you have at this time, steven? >> well, the question in my mind is whether the military is

calculating that they can live with a low-level insurgency along the same lines that they had in the 1990s, because that seems to be the case. that seems to be the place where egypt is going. we already have a situation in the sinai that is out of control and repression often leads to radicalization and the use of violence. so have they calculated, have they been able to think about what they did today three steps ahead? it certainly seems to me, however, that regardless of what may -- what they believe about it, egypt is going to be unstable and uncertain and significantly more violent than it's been since that low-level surgery came to an end in the late 1990s. just one more thing on the u.s. i think it's clear by the actions taken today that the egyptian leadership is not all that interested in what the u.s.

view is on these issues. so i think we're entering into a period where we don't have much influence and too many levers at our disposal to nudge the egyptians away from violence and to a better, more just, open, democratic society. >> rose: understanding how important, frank, egypt is to the middle east, you say you can't end war without syria, you can't go to war without egypt. what steve saidd is a troubling thing in a sense that we have less influence with one of the -- essential countries in the future of the middle east. >> well, i think it's absolutely right, we have less influence and steven's absolutely right. at the same time we're not going to pick the government in egypt. we have to face that reality. but we can influence there is no

one who has the same audience we have in cairo. let's remember how many weeks the united states has been involved in trying to build bridges between the muslim brothers and the government and we were allowed inside the country alongside its most sensitive political moment. we don't want to waste that. we won't get everything we want but we have to play the game and that means being part of the political dialogue and maintaining the relationship with egypt. >> rose: michael hanna, thank you for joining us. steven cook, thank you my friend. good to have you here. and frank wisner, former u.s. ambassador to egypt and other places, one of america's most distinguished diplomats. thank you. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. president obama canceled a summit with vladimir putin in moscow. it was scheduled for september,

it was the latest sign that relations between the united states and russia have hit a new low. the president spoke about his decision on friday. >> keep in mind that our decision to not participate in the summit was not simply around mr. snowden. it had to do with the fact that, frankly, on a whole range of issues where we think we can make progress, russia has not moved. >> rose: john kerry and chag met with russian washington. meanwhile, russia has continued to attract criticism for legislation enacted in june widely understood to discriminate against homosexuality. there's even been talk in some quarters of some people boycotting the 2014 olympics. joining me now, steven cohen, a professor of russian studies at new york university. i'm pleased to have him back at this table. he is a friend. welcome. >> rose: thank you, charlie. >> rose: how do you see today

u.s./russian relati'nsw how bad is it? >> it could be worse. there's no arms race, at least not yet, but there could be one. i think we are in essentially a cold war situation. >> rose: that far back? >> well, what does cold war mean? it's a situation short of shooting at each other where there are more serious profound conflicts than there were cooperation. and what, they this tragic, you'll remember that after the boston bombings there was an awareness and there hadn't been one in washington before that we need russia's help on counterterrorism and that got underway. then there was an awareness that the american narrative about the so-called arab spring wasn't panning out and now syria had it had potential to be a real catastrophe for the middle east. so washington and moscow began to plan the syrian conference. it may not have succeeded but we needed an attempt.

that was then if not blown away, frozen in place by edward snowden's unexpected arrival in moscow and all that's happened. so president obama is correct in saying he didn't cancel the summit because of snowden, but because there's so many cold war like conflicts. snowden was the tipper. now, i think he should have gone but that's a different discussion. >> rose: you think he should have gone to meet with president putin? >> yeah. >> rose: because? >> for all the reasons obama gave when he first ran for president. if you remember when he ran for president six years ago he said "it's a mission stake not to talk to our enemies, not to talk to the people we disagree with. i will do that. " and he was attacked but hifts right. if we're only going to talk to the people with whom we already agree, do we need the stafrplt? we just need lawyers to draw up the contracts. the reality is is there are

profound national security issues pressing down hard on us in russia. russia understands them and i think some people in washington do. we are in a stalemate, you break a stalemate the way reagan broke the stalemate with russia when he went off to see gorbachev in 195 when his advisors told him not to see if he could get something going. >> rose: this is at reykjavik? >> no, it was geneva. then they went to reykjavik and decided to abolish nuclear weapons. they didn't do it but you can see -- >> rose: they could have done it if, in fact, reagan had said we'll give up on missile defense. >> it is true that we shouldn't overpersonalized these things. the issues are bigger than putin and obama. it's also true that if the leader doesn't send a strong signal, nobody is going to do much. >> rose: i want you to speak to this. there are those who say obama got along better with med ved yef than putin. there are those who say obama tried to reset the relationship

and it ran into all kinds of problems. there are those who say this most importantly. putin is s a hard guy to figure out. you know, you'll see people commenting, american politicians calling him a former k.g.b. thug that kind of thing. there is a sense who have this guy is and what is he about? >> i don't have a problem figuring out putin because putin does what he thinks is in russia's national interest. just just as we would want the american president to do that for us. >> is in the russia's interest to allow -- give temporary asylum to edward snowden? why is that in russia's interest? >> i have to digress to be fair to your viewers. what i'm going to say differs fundamentally from the consensus view in the media and washington. putin had no choice. >> rose: that's, by the way, why i invited you. >> there are other people, i'm not alone. putin had no choice.

he didn't invite snowden, he literally dropped from the air. putin said "what a lousy christmas present." you'll also remember he told snoentd if i give you asylum-- temporarily-- there's no talk of snowden talking permanently, you can't damage our enemies. so putin wasn't happy about this but there's no way putin could have turned him over. never from day one. is. >> rose: politically? how politically fragile is he? >> it's not about fragility. it's about two other things. in international affairs people think putin is anti-american. i say no. he's non-american. he has a foreign policy from europe to the middle east that's different from america. and he takes pride in that and on the basis of that he's made allies. to give snowden back, a highly symbolic figure given the surveillance issue would have collided with what putin has done in international affairs.

but at home he has a political elite. forget society. the political elite didn't want him to make this concession to the united states if you want to know why, that's another story. >> rose: what could the united states ha ne to get him to change his mind? >> i can't be sure because i don't know what the back channel discussion was. but it would have been snowden's decision. but snowden's father suggests-- and he's on his way to moscow soon, on his appearances in the american media have suggested the following. if snowden was guaranteed bail after he's indicted and a fair open trial he would come home. now, we have a precedent-- i'm older than you, but you remember daniel elsechick. he was denounced for stealing the pentagon papers and the "times" published them. else ellsberg was out on bail very quickly and the case was -- it never went to trial because

the judge said he couldn't get a fair trial. that's what snowden says he wants. >> rose: so you were saying that you believe that if snowden had said if the united states had said to -- through an attorney general i guarantee you he'll get a fair trial here and, in fact we'll set bail and he can be free to go. >> rose: yes, that's what's on snowden's mine. >> well, think about bradley manning, they tortured him. didn't that take you back a bit? i didn't know we tortured people. >> rose: well, what did they mean by torture? you think he was in isolation? -- we know he was in isolation. >> all i know is holden said we won't execute him, we won't torture him. let him come home. that's a start. >> rose: you seem to be saying putin had no choice. now do you believe that the russian government is

interrogating him, is taking everything piece of information he has about american intelligence about the n.s.a. for their own good. that would be acting they might consider in their own national interest. so are they doing that giving him everything he knows? >> and you can ask the same question about the chinese when he was in hong kong. >> rose: what do you assume? >> i would assume that their intelligence services would be delinquent in their duty if they didn't make every effort to do that. i don't know the answer. >> rose: i talked to a former c.i.a. person and said would we be doing that if we had the opportunity? of course. >> his father says it hasn't happened. i don't know. i don't know. >> rose: okay, what about syria? is -- where do you think -- where do you think the effort to put together some kind of -- and the united states desperately wants and john kerry desperately wants russian cooperation to figure out a way to stop syria

from becoming a stalemate and a civil war that just goes on and on and on. >> rose: and putin wants it, too. so you would think that would be enough to act on. here's the conflict no story began yesterday. since tunisia and then egypt, the arab spring, we have had a narrative. it's about democracy. russia's had a different narrative. no, it's about the destabilization of one of the most important regions in the world and it's about islamic radicals becoming -- coming closer to power. therefore -- >> rose: the russians have some fear of that? >> they have 20 million islamic citizens of their own. >> rose: but this goes beyond chechnya. >> much beyond. it goes through the whole caucuses but they have 20 million russian citizens who are islamic citizens. they don't want to get that backlash, that blowback into russia. so the russian version was you americans are wrong. gradually the american narrative

has changed. particularly since what happened in egypt. and it's less about democracy. so there was room for us to talk with the russians and we were until snowden fell from the sky. the two narratives coming closer together, lavrov, the foreign minister of russia, kerry, the secretary of state said there's enough to talk about. now, the point is moscow wants it, washington wants it, but we can't compel the insurgents to go to this conference and the russians can't compel assad to go. >> the other argument now that it appears that assad as of several weeks ago was doing better and if you're doing better you don't want to go to a conference. >> that's right. >> rose: you want to go to a conference when you're doing worse. >> but he's not a fool. he doesn't want to die. he knows what happened to qaddafi and he knows in the long run he isn't going to do better. >> you believe that the united states -- that the option got along better with medvedev than

putin because? >> i actually don't believe that. >> rose: okay, fair enough. >> they took a position and the position was simple and it was a wrong position, some of us warned him not to do it. they saw medvedev as the future president of russia after his first term. biden in moscow literally told putin standing as close to putin as you and i are standing "we don't think you should return to the presidency." that's an outrageous intervention. they made a wager of medvedev. many of us could have told them putin was coming back, don't offend him. >> rose: did most people assume that? >> i think in russia there was an attempt to keep medvedev in office. here's the real point. forget medvedev and putin. that was so-called reset. remember the famous reset? and the short story is the united states grot the reset what it wanted. moscow didn't get anything it wanted. so in washington the short term reset was a diplomatic victory. obama gets the credit. where he made his mistake is he

didn't give russia what it wanted. after that russia was disinclined to do anything without firm guarantee. >> rose: here's what is bothering a lot of people i think in terms of vladimir putin's russia. an effort by the government of vladimir putin to suppress gay rights legislation and a fledging gay rights movement. >> i have a two-fold position. one, as was the case in america gays will win their rights in this country themselves and not the help of any foreign country. two, i am old enough to remember when life for-- for gays in america was horrible, they were brutalized. i also lived in england where that was the same situation until 25 years ago. this sounds demeaning to russia but i don't mean it to be. russia on these types of issues is probably 20 or 30 years behind us. it will come in russia and russians will bring the change and our intervention will only make gay rights -- >> rose: we don't have to

intervene, do we? >> well, historically we have. i can tell you why obama shouldn't have said what he said how unhappy and how much he deplore this is because some of his closest allies kill homosexuals in the gufl area. russia is not the worst offender. so it's a little hypocritical of obama to make this statement. but the larger point for policy and my gay friends in russia is it's their struggle and we need to be careful. if we intervene it will make the gay issue a nationalist issue, and national schism the rising force in russia. >> rose: tell me, your take on putin is that he is not some k.g.b. brute? your take is he is a very smart and savvy head of state like any other who simply looks out for his national interests in? is that what i hear for you? >> i would say more because he's relentless in pursuing what he thinks is russia's national interest. >> rose: don't you by saying

this give him a pass on a whole range of issues? >> no, because then i go on to say what he perceives to be in russia's national interests is in enough cases also in america's national interest that is where we need-- i voted against reagan twice-- a ronald reagan type of leader prepared to meet putin half way. to give it a try. obama wants this on his terms. putin doesn't give anything on somebody else's terms. now, you can say putin's a lousy guy but he is what he is. >> rose: i'm not saying he's a lousy guy. >> there's been a demonization about putin in america where we don't think about him anymore. what does k.g.b. thug mean? wasn't the first george bush the head of the c.i.a.? >> nobody ever called george bush a thug. >> maybe that's the point. by the way, i don't know anything that putin has done thuggish. >> rose: really? >> he just has a terrific wit. personally. what has he done? >> rose: well, i don't know. >> has he killed anybody?

>> rose: well, a lot of journalists have had a hard time in russia. you might argue that the head of russia would be relentless in making sure that that was not circumstances that he would find acceptable in russia. political opponents,, khodorkovsky, look at the whole range of people who challenged putin and found themselves in a very bad place. >> that's correct. the editor of the russian newspaper, the most opposition -- >> rose: this is one gorbachev had some interest in for a sfwhil >> he owns 10%. four or five of its correspondents have been assassinated or killed. four or five. >> rose: by whom? >> here's the answer. >> the leadership of the newspaper, the editors of this newspaper do not believe for a minute putin is behind it. the reason they kill journalists

in russia have more to do with financial corruption and settling scores than state policy. the most you can say against pew anyone this regard is he has created in atmosphere in russia in which these people get away with it. very few are brought to trial. that's what you could blame him for. but -- >> rose: how about khodorkovsky? >> cord kov city. he's in prison, it was an enron case. it was in america he'd have gone to prison for ten years and be out. he's still in prison, they should let him out. >> rose: is there an indication that they will? >> there is. >> rose: people think that that was in part not an enron case as much as a case of somebody willing to stand up. >> i don't want to go here without an opponent across the table. the person i think it was is because khodorkovsky was going to sell a majority share of the largest oil company in russia to an american oil giant.

that's what i think. >> rose: i've heard that argument. >> but, look, will khodorkovsky get out? he's due to get out next year. some people in the leadership want to bring a third conviction so they'll never get out. >> rose: who are those people. >> i don't know. i don't know. but, look, there's a race for mayor in moscow. one of the most interesting things going on. they let this guy who was convicted, the oppositionist convicted. >>. >> rose: convicted of what? >> it was probably a phony charge. >> rose: what does that say to you. >> it seems to me that everybody in russia since the end of the soviet union has been stealing state property and trillions of dollars. it's a cancer and it's everywhere and it's easy to bring charges against somebody. whether you're high or low. here's the point. this guy is popular and he's running for mayor of moscow. he won't win. but if he gets 20% it's a great

achievement because it means the opposition now phenomenon >> l try to affect the fate of khodorkovsky. whether they let him out or not. >> rose: so is anything -- what should be done to improve the relationship between russia and the united states, all the common interests whether there's iran, snowden, especially syria take place or will they take place despite the differences we now see? >> when obama canceled the summit, putin's inner circle said the whole problem is the united states doesn't want a partnership with russia on-- his words-- an equal basis. i think that's correct.

if we made it clear to the russians that concessions are a two-way street, if we made it clear to russia that we wouldn't break our word, like we did with the no-fly zone in libya when they went awrong and we used it to overthrow qaddafi, we would get 50% of what they want and they get 50% of what they want and that's called negotiation and diplomacy. we don't have any real diplomacy with russia at the moment we have a policy called selective cooperation. >> rose: every negotiation does not necessary assume that each party will get 50% of what they want? >> you're right. but nor should you proceed with the diplomacy that we get what we want and sorry about what you want, which is the way we proceed for some so many years the problem is whether you believe it or not that's the russian attitude towards us and if you want it to change you have to do good-face negotiating. then there's bigger things we could do. we could end the nato expansion. >> rose: that's stopped. >> well, no, you saw what schumer said the other day. that the retaliation for snowden

should be bringing georgia into nato. >> rose: but the fact that they're saying that the idea of an aggressive push for that and most people assume that it was certainly on the back burner. an aggressive push to expand nato that threatened russia. do you disagree with that? >> no, i don't disagree but what does moscow and the kremlin hear when men as influential as senator schumer and mccain say "now we have to bring georgia into nato." >> rose: well, if you listen to every politician in every country voicing their own political views for different reasons either because they believe them in the case of senator john mccain or b because it's for domestic political audience then you go crazy. >> you want to kremlin to think the way you think. >> rose: i want them to understand who represents the american government in terms of making decisions. >> rose: then obama could give them assurances, nato expansion

is over. and we are going to cut back on direct democracy promotion as we call it inside russia and we will negotiate in good faith not trying to gain an advantage on you on the issues. by the way, you haven't mentioned one thing, people say one reason obama shouldn't have gone to moscow is moscow didn't make a positive response to obama's call for a new round of nuclear reductions. but nobody says why they won't. they're not going to do it as long as as we missile defense on the border. because their answer to what they regard as intrusive missile defense is to build more nuclear weapons. but. >> rose: but the missile defense is not directed at russia. >> who says? >> i've heard a whole range of people say that. >> i can give you a couple people to put on your show who say the russians are absolutely right. beyond the third stage -- >> rose: but america has said

the missile defenses are directed towards iran, not towards russia. >> well, american officials say a lot of things. >> rose: thank you, steven. >> i'm not saying they're lying but there's a scientific alternative view of this. >> rose: great to see you. >> not that great. i'm just teasing you. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: julian guthrie is here. she is an author and award winning staff writer from the san francisco chron kl. she tells the story of how oracle c.e.o. larry ellison teamed up top -- under new rules he pushed through it will be the fastest and most expensive america's cup race ever. i'm pleased to have julian guthrie here to talk about this book "the billionaire and the mechanic." you can see there one of the boats, the oracle boats, that has caused some controversy as

well as any other boats that -- >> well, there boat was the boat that won the america's cup for larry in 2010 and there's a great story behind that. there was a trim arcran and it had the largest wingspan ever built. 230 feet tall, too tall to fit underneath the golden gate bridge and larry called it his black tear dakt kl. so it was unbelievable. but this set the precedent. >> just to refer to the title. what is it about the two of them that made them successful together? >> well, you know it's this wonderful unlikely partnership between larry ellisson, the billionaire, and norbert byron, who is this son of croatian immigrants and he is a radiator repair shop owner and he's one of those ordinary guys who did

something extraordinary. he was head of the golden gate yacht club which was practically a sinking ship, $453,000 in debt in 2001 and he learned larry ellison was in need of a yacht club. and he was in need of a financial savior for the yacht club so he thought why can't our little club, a blue-collar voting club on the san francisco waterfront partner with larry's name? everybody thought he was nuts. he didn't listen to the naysayers and he reached out to oracle racing and made this partnership happen. >> rose: unlikely because? because they come from different places? >> they come from very different places. and it was expected that larry would partner with a better-known yacht club on san francisco's waterfront, the st. francis yacht club and there's a fun story in the book about what happened or what didn't happen between st. francis and larry ellison. but it's this story that doesn't come along very often and i

became very enamored with the drama of these two men. first before i became interested in the america's cup. >> rose: tell me about larry ellison, a man that you know. >> very different than the public perception. he's almost become this -- there's this caricature larger than life take no prisoners win at all cost warrior in it and the larry ellison that i got to know through my interviews over a year and a half is very competitive and that is unrelating. but he's also fall out of your chair funny, can be self-deprecating which you don't expect, is more reflective than one would imagine and wants to win but ethically. i think that's an important point to make about him. he created this company in 1977, it's dominant. it donnell nates the global market and strategically step by step they won larry is all about

the competition but wants to do it ethically. i was in chicago on tour and i wanted to see where he grew up and i hadn't done that in my reporting for the book and i found out his childhood address and went there to check it out. i went to see this narrative arc where this began and now as you have seen how large his line has gotten, this was really fascinating to see. lower south side of chicago as he likes to say the kid who had all of the disadvantages he needed to succeed and, you know, to get -- to get where he did in his life, you know, it's a remarkable story. there's so much to this book that is beyond larry. that's norbert, that's about the designers and the builders and engineers. >> rose: let's talk about sailing in the america's cup and how it's changed. a lot of people think it's changed too much, too fast and the boats are too fast and too

dangerous and there's already been at least one death that had a huge impact on him as well as others. an america's cup sailor caught underneath the boat when it toppled. his boat had toppled several times and people say by definition this is not what the the america's cup about. this is not about yachting, it's more like nascar. >> it is. it is. and that was a tragedy and i knowsy talked with larry ellison after that and i know he was very emotional over that. that's not something that anybody wanted to happen, wants to happen but i think that the catch-22 here is that to bring the america's cup into the modern day, to attract this mass audience which was part of larry's vision, you know, you want to have these races be high adrenaline, you want to have them close to shore. you want to have these sailors look like superheroes in their

protective helmets and vests. so you get the networks more interested in it because there is this speed and allure of danger. why is nascar popular? why is football popular? you dread and anticipate the pileups. so there is a certain amount of blood sport to all of these sports and -- but you look at these boats and you get the know the stories of the sailors and engineers and builders and it become this is really compelling sporting event it makes the most aggressive use of new technology which i think is new technology. >> rose: what's the most interesting revelation about him that you discovered? for you. >> that he is as reflective as he is. that he -- at the end of my book i have him -- he talks a lot about steve jobs and he talks

about giving a eulogy and steve's memorial. i think it was how reflective he is and how he can look around his home or his homes or he can go to oracle and see all of these a lyndry cal buildings and think 120,000 people this company employs. how did my life, this little kid from the south side of chicago, adoptive parents, how did i get here? so i think sometimes he pauses and looks at his life with detached wonder. >> rose: he looks at his father who he says was a conformist and everything is he said is not about conforming. >> rose: he and steve jobs are the different ones and there's a great scene in the book about president two walking around the grounds of his woodside property and they're talking about who's the greatest human being ever. who left the biggest impact? >> rose: did they decide who it was? >> they did. it was a very interesting thing

because steve jobs, he thought gandhi, which you might imagine and larry said napoleon. and not because of the great war victories but because of all that napoleon did, yes, the war victories also what he did with the laws, what he did with the social system, what he did with arts and culture. is very interesting glimpse into larry. >> rose: there is some reason that he would be prepared to see these boats smaller sized? >> i think the a.c.-45s is kind of the best fit which they now know but it's in hindsight. so they went big so that it would look imposing on t.v. and then they saw that the 45s-- which were raced in the world series regatta-- were impressive enough looking.

so i think after this america's cup i think it's going to be exciting, i think it's going to be a lot of fun and who knows. you don't know if oracle is going to win or likely team new zealand will be going up against them. but what will happen? where will it be? san francisco? elsewhere? if oracle holds on the the trophy and keeps in the america what it look like the next time. it's a fascinating race and all the people around it and their dreams. i loved learning about it. >> rose: thank you, julie, great to see you. "the billionaire and the mechanic: the story of the america's cup and what might happen as they get ready for the competition. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications

captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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