>> rose: welcome to our program. we continue our special summer series tonight with "breaking bad." we're joined by it creator vince gill lan and bryan cranston, anna gunn and aaron paul. >> the very similitude that he created in setting this foundation, i think it resonated and -- with audiences that we were presenting a situation and a story that could be real. and -- we all are a mixture of good and bad. there is no one we're always good or always right or always happier. no, we're far more conflicted than that. and i think it tested the audience and what "breaking bad" has done is not only create a very compelling drama on screen but it's created conflict between audience itself.

>> rose: "breaking bad" for the hour. next.

>> rose: in 2008, the cable network amc took a chance on a television project by x files writer vince gilligan. it was about a middle aged chemistry teacher diagnosed with terminal canneser who turned to cooking crystal meth to provide for his family. five years and countless awards later, the gamble paid off big time. "breaking bad" is widely considered one of the great dramas in the history of television. this year it was nominated for 13 emmy awards, including outstanding drama. on sunday, august 11, "breaking bad" returns to amc for its final eight episodes. here is a teaser for those episodes. >> to w.w.. >> rose: who do you figure is in qood roe wilson, willy wonka? walter white? >> i'm scared. >> rose:

>> scared of what? >> you. >> how many more people are going to die because of us? >> no! >> what are you going to do to stop me? >> say my name. >> eisenberg. >> you're damn right. >> rose: joining me now vince gilligan and three of the show's stars and emmy nominees, aaron paul, anna gunn and the man who plays walter white himself, brooi wran cranston. i'm very pleased to have him at this table. welcome. great to have you here. >> thank you very much. this is something. >> indeed. >> rose: take me back to when you first had the idea for this. >> i was coming off of seven years writing for the t.v. show "the x-files" and that was a wonderful job. that was a close second as far as great jobs go to "breaking bad." i think this one has to take the cake. but i was talking to a good buddy of mine who i had gone to n.y.u. film school with and he and i had written together on "the x-files" and we were bow be

moaning the fact that we couldn't get another great t.v. job. >> rose: life was over. >> life was over. and we talked about being greeters at wal-mart because maybe we could be good at that. and he add read an article in the "new york times" about some children who had gotten sick from a meth lab that their mother had put in their bathroom or -- i don't know what the particulars were. but my different tom joked in his dark humored way that maybe we should build our own meth lab in back of an r.v. and drive around and make money on the side while we're in between film jobs. and that's the kind of -- you'd have to know him. that's the kind of joking he does. >> rose: so you have an idea? >> suddenly this idea goes boom and pops into my head for that character who at that point i do not have a name for who would do such a thing, a character who became known as walter white. but i think really what was going on at the time was that i was about to turn 40 years old,

this was back in 2005 or so, and reverse engineering it looking back in hindsight on it i think it was really interested in writing a story about a guy having the world's worst mid-life crisis-- as i was probably about to embark upon my own. >> rose: so you had an idea, then you pitched it. and you pitched it as mr. chips becomes scar face. >> it's always good to have a nice pithy one-sentence pitch when you go in to talk to the powers that be and base t basic franchise, the basic idea for the show was to take the protagonist and turn him into the antagonist. good guy to bad guy. which seemed somewhat fresh and original and -- to me. and so the pithy pitch, as it were, were mr. chips into scar face. and luckily it was -- >> rose: but it didn't sell to everybody. some people said, for whatever reason "not right for us." >> which is very often the case, to be fair. pretty much any t.v. show, any movie you've ever seen that

you're loved or hated most likely had a history behind it of ten or 20 or 30 people saying no before that one person at the right place at the right time said yes. >> rose: all right, let me go through the next thing you have to do is casting. you need a walt white. >> yeah. >> rose: so what was in your mind? >> this man right here was in my mind. honest to goodness. it was a -- i was very fortunate to have worked with bryan cranston in about 1999 on "the x-files." we had a tricky to cast character in an episode i had written. that was two-hander. agent mulder had to be riding in a car for 45 minutes straight with a bad guy who was who was holding a gun to his head and being very nasty and repellent and anti-semitic and just generally a nauseating character who nonetheless when he expired at the end of the hour the audience needed to feel sympathy for him. to feel sad for his demise and it was very hard to cast that. it was very easy to find some

very scary bad guy actors in hollywood. now find the whole package, as it were, find an actor who could embody nastiness and yet also have some sort of underlying core of humanity that could show through intermittently when the moment called for it, very tricky. bryan came in, i didn't know him from adam. i didn't realize i'd already seen him in "saving private ryan" and "from the earth to the moon" and "seinfeld" because he's such a chameleon and he came in and just nailed it. as soon as he walked out of the room i looked at the other producers and said "o.t.w." which is trade speak for "off to wardrobe." and lo and behold, you know, he was great and i wanted to work with him in the future and the moment came. >> rose: and the moment came. you got a script. >> i got a script from my agency said said "you know vince gilligan, he wrote to episode of x-files that you were in."

i said oh, great. "breaking bad," i wasn't a mill wrar with the title. i didn't know that it was a colloquialism and let's see what this is about. first page, a pair of trousers falling from the sky, bright blue -- (laughter) the red rock hitting the dirt, out-of-control r.v. runs over it. interior r.v., a man in tighty whitey underwear and a respirator drives madly, next to him another man is passed out also in a respirator. he looks behind him, there's two dead bodies sliding up and back in a sea of chemicals and glass. that was page one. (laughter) i was getting nervous! and then so he got you right away and i just blasted through the entire script. i was overwhelmed. it was by far the best drama pilot i'd ever read and called my agents right away and said "when is this schedule? " and they said "we have it next

wednesday or tuesday." "this week, this week. you've got to get me in this week.". as actors, a script like that is like catnip. you start scratching and wanting it and rub up against it and all these things and i said "i've got to get there. because i know they're going to go after this as soon as they read this." so i wanted to go in and mark my territory with the man. (laughter) >> rose: anna, skyler. >> yes. >> rose: tell me who she is and how you felt when you first saw the script and what you could do with it? >> well, i had the same feeling as bryan. i just -- it gripped me and i immediately -- i was actually -- i had just had my second child five months before and i was sick and my friend sharon, our wonderful casting director sharon and sherry thomas, she was trying to get me to come in for it and i was so tired bag new mom. i had another child as well and i canceled a couple of appointments actually and she

called me at home and said "what is wrong with you?" (laughter) and i said "i'm sorry --". >> rose: nothing more for her to do. >> right. and she said "read the script right now." and i read it and i closed it and i said that is by far the best script i think i've ever read in my life. and i called her back and said "i'll be in tomorrow." so i went in and i just thought it was extraordinary and i called vince, actually, a you can to about the character of skyler because there wasn't, you know, a huge amount about her in the pilot and i just wanted to know a little bit more about her and vince said to me one line. he said "she will be carmella soprano but she will be in on the crime." >> rose: wow. (laughter) and your transformation in character and all that -- >> absolutely.

and she starts off, you know, in this -- in one place and i knew that she would go to that place and i thought "i don't know how it will happen, when, where, and i don't care and i'm in for that ride." and it was -- >> rose: a five-year ride. >> a brilliant five-year ride. >> rose: explain, aaron, you did not get the dress memo for this. >> no, i know. i'm so sorry. i was own a phoner and i looked and -- i had a suit -- (laughter) >> he's aaron hall! >> rose: he's aaron hall. >> i had a nice tie picked out. i apologize. >> rose: it was not your fault. but we're pleased to have you just the way you are. >> well, thank you, thank you for having me. >> rose: tell me about jesse and tell me the sense of your own connection to this. >> i'm with everybody else. when i got "breaking bad" sent to me i read it and it was hands down the best thing i've ever read and i went in, my first

meeting was with vince and our wonderful casting directors and i had done an episode of "x-files" years ago and that's kind of where we first connected and tom snauze wrote that particular episode and it was a warm room walking into this meeting and in the pilot i just saw jesse as kind of just a burnout drug give. i didn't really see much more. and then as the series went on more and more layers were -- >> rose: you were worried one time you might not make it past year one. >> right, that was the plan, i think initially we were going to have jesse around, thank god you changed your mind. >> how could i not with you being you. >> you see how it goes and characters make their own place and you say "we can't kill them off." >> absolutely true.

sarin a prime example of an actor who was too good to kill off not that there was ever an intention to kill off walter skyler in those early years. it's wonderful in television, this wonderfully collaborative medium how much the actors bring to it, how much the crew brings to it from the director of photography on down. the directors, obviously the writers, all these people get together and we writers-- my six writers in the show-- the seven of us together learned about these characters from the actors as much as anything. layers of complexity, as aaron just said, essentially jesse was a bit of a drug give burnout and not much more in my initial script but these layers of complexity get added to the characters in large part once the writers get to know the actors and know who they are and what they're capable of and in our situation we're blessed with

these actors all have the range of paganini or whatever. they just have amazing range of abilities. >> rose: so we have good creator good scripts, great actors. yet a series like this has to have something else. what's the something else that's made this a phenomenon that's made it considered one of the great television dramas? that's made an interesting anti-hero that rivals what happened in "the so pran knows" with tony soprano? >> well, from my standpoint this has never happened before in the history of television. usually television is about stasis where you come to depend on consistent any a character and there's comfort in that. and there's room for that. but now in this -- what is i think another golden age of television is that there's much more complex toy these characters. a conflict and when vince told me that first meeting that he wanted to take the character --

because in the script it doesn't indicate how long he's going to go on this binge. for all i know, this was it and he got scared and went back to teaching after that pilot episode. but he told me he wanted to take this character and make a good person into a bad person, completely change his -- the way he operates by the end of the series. and i thought "i don't believe that's ever happened before." >> rose: so he wanted to keep the character, he has to have his same identity?" >> it's a good rule of thumb in television. >> rose: rules that ought to be broken. >> you know, after how many millions of hours of television we've had since the creation of the medium, you know, marshall dylan on "gun smoke." he's the same in season 20 as season one and that's not a bad thing. we want to know what we're going to get when we're vi

certain character wes into our living rooms week after week. but i figured there was room in the medium for a new way to take it, a new paradigm, a new opportunity to have a somewhat more finite and limited series, although admittedly when it started i didn't know exactly how long it would go. but when your pitch is "i'm going to take the good guy and turn him into a bad guy" it suggests an a-to-z story telling that has a finite ending. >> rose: this question always comes up and has come up in conversations between you and me. when did walt go bad? >> very good question. completely open to interpretation. anyone else's take on it is just as valid as mine. i think we have a little difference of agreement on this which i like. for my money it was not in the first episode when he actually dipped his toe into criminal alty and even, in fact, killed a guy. it wasn't his second episode --

(laughter) >> rose: how do you define "bad?" >> that's not bad! >> rose: that happens to a lot of people i know! >> well, that was bad. it was a bad idea. >> there's kids watching at home! (laughter) >> rose: it is bad! >> my best answer is episode four of the first season in which walt is presented with the deus ex machina moment in which former friends of his who are now very rich billionaire -- we never exactly know what it is precisely they do but they're just as brilliant in science as walt is and they've gone on to great success creating a fortune 500 company and they find out through skyler's intervention that walt is suffering from cancer. >> rose: terminal cancer. >> and in dieus exmachina -- in

personfully deus ex machina fashion they come forth and say "we're going to pay for the best of care, we're going to get you well if it's humanly possible we'll do this for you. we'll give you a job. we're going to make you complete and well and whole. "and walt at the end of the hour says "thank you very much but no." and then he goes jesse pinkman who at that moment he was on the outs with and he says "let's cook." >> rose: he's engaging in full-time participation in criminal activity. >> because that is the moment to me that puts the lie to -- that begins to put the lie to this idea that walter white does what he does first and foremost -- solely for his family. he's doing it in -- and that's the moment where he truly for me and i think for my writers he truly became interesting. because before that, it's relatively easy to put a character into a box story wise

and say, well -- you know, the whole thing about the former special forces guy who's -- whose kids get kidnap sod that he'll go kill the president and he's got to kill the president to save his kids. those kinds of well-worn kind of mechanistic -- mechanical story telling tropes are interesting. and they make for a darn good story, but really when walt does what he does for him, that's when i found it more intriguing. >> rose: and you think it came earlier? >> oh, yeah. i think in response to that i would think that had he not already gone down that slippery slope that he may have accepted their care. but he had already turned -- to me. any time a person attempts to become someone they're not for financial gain-- whether it's altruistic and he's going to take that money and give it to his family-- he's still compromising his ethics and

morality and he made a devil of a deal. he -- a faustian deal, really. and i think it's that first step. it's almost imperceptible because you sympathize with what he's going through and you wonder "i wonder if i would do the same thing." and so you may not recognize that that is the step he started and now it's -- he can't hide the -- you know, the spiral. >> rose: the slippery slope or whatever it is. tell me about skyler. how did you see what she goes through? >> well, it's been such an interesting journey in terms of my learning about her because in the beginning it was hard for me to understand a lot of what was happening with her. we saw a pilot reading in los angeles last week and it was the first time that i had seen the

pilot or heard it since, i don't know, probably in five years and i got to have a point of view on skyler and walt and the beginning of that relationship that also were almost revelatory to me in that they weren't miserable, they loved each other they just -- life dealt them curveballs and dealt them things that they weren't prepared for. they thought life was going to be different. they had a child with special needs. he was working two jobs. they're a middle-class -- >> you do what you have to do. >> you do what you have to do to get by and they were putting their nose to the grindstone and trying to get through. and the way skyler was trying to get through things, she was a very, very practical, strong person. and the way she dealt with life was to try to order and manage and control everything. and she's somebody whose emotions don't come up to the

surface. she, i think, is somebody who pushes them down even to herself. she does not allow them to come up because they're too scary for her. and my back story that i created with her in terms of the thing with her relationship with marie is that she and marie only had each other. their parents, i think, we discussed that as well, they were not around so marie and skyler had each other as sort of war buddies and skyler had to be kind of a mother figure marie. so she learned to be in charge very early. and that relationship in the pilot was that kind of relationship. she was in charge in that household. and there is something sort of controlling in that. but it's not in any bad way. she doesn't mean it to be controlling. she's not trying to be mean with it. >> it's how she copes. >> it's how she copes. it's how people try to deal with internal turmoil. so when she gets into the whole thing when it's revealed that

he's cooking drugs, when it's revealed that all these things are going on she tries to deal with everything by saying "okay then how do i go into action." she's not somebody -- >> rose: how do i'll do with my reality? >> that's right. she doesn't sit and cry, she doesn't wring her hands, she says "what do i do?" and that's how she moves forward. and i love the fact that vince made her a woman with a backbone of steel and it made viewers sometimes really upset and made them angry. it made her a polarizing figure and they didn't understand or like her for that sometimes because they felt like she was nagging. they felt like she was getting in the way. >> she was. (laughter) >> they felt like she was getting in the way of -- yeah. they felt like she was getting -- (laughter) >> rose: so aaron, the interesting thing about jesse is that he's a guy who has friends and he's a guy who develops

relationships. there's his young friends, there's mike, then walt. that's the most interesting thing about the character to me. >> yeah, i mean, i see it as he's in constant search of something. guidance and also acceptance. at first, you know, when you meet jesse i saw him just as this kind of bumbling idiot. almost like a comic relief in a way. but throughout the show you see he didn't comele from a battered home, that's not why he is doing what he's doing. i mean, he had a -- you know, he grew up new a nice family and maybe a little bit too much pressure put on him. his parents gave up on him long ago and so now he's just floating around and he just wants -- he's desperately in need of guidance and so he turns to walt, i think, really as a

father figure for a way and he just wants -- hints him to kind of see him as he really is. he just wants acceptance. and love, really, which is just so sad in a way. >> rose: how do you explain the fact that walt is what he is yet the audience wants him-- if not to win-- to succeed? >> i don't know that i ever do a good job of explaining it well. >> rose: well, maybe that should be everybody's interpretation. this anti-hero is not cary grant jewel thief. >> well, yeah, that is true. and he's not robin hood and he's not -- >> rose: he's scar face, as you've said. >> i think walter white would be scared and repelled by scar face. we've seen a more scar face like character in our early season,

tuco salamacco who walt was intimidated by but dealt with him with his brains rather than his brawn. we were lucky that a show like "the sopranos" paved the way. >> rose: could this show have happened without the success of "the sopranos?" somebody had to be first to get anti-heroes out there but i don't know if it would have been "breaking bad" if we were talking 1999 again and if it was up at bat first. all i know is that they paved the way for -- and then certainly character vick mackey on "the shield" another wonderful anti-hero. i don't know in an alternate reality how it would have worked out but i guess the pump was primed, as it were, for a time of -- again, historically television in the early days when it was more run aesthetic

decisions were made as much by sponsors as my executives and writers, the world of white hats and black hats and the guy wearing the white hat always had to prevail and save the day and although if you go back further than that, you get your wonderful warner brothers film noirs where you'd have bogart or you'd have, you know, jimmy cagney or edward g. robinson playing the bad guy, playing the -- you know -- paul muni, the original scar face. but they always had to suffer the consequences of their actions at the end. >> rose: what do you think it is? >> um, i think it's -- i think there's a more sophisticated audience now. i think they demand more complexity in their story telling and more of a reality. the very similitude that he created in setting this foundation i think it resonated with audiences that we were presenting a situation and a

story that could be real. and that we all are a mixture of good and bad. there is no one -- we're always good or always right or always happy. no, we're far more conflicted than that. and i think it tested the audience and what "breaking bad" has done is not only create a very compelling drama on screen but it's created conflict within the audience itself. >> yes. >> rose: yes, indeed. >> as you were mentioning. >> as you were saying -- and hating your character because she was standing in the way of me cooking crystal meth and putting it on the jet and the audience is going "wait, what am i rooting? ". >> rose: and not rooting for you? >> right, right. and that was confounding. i don't understand how they're hating the woman who's saying "hey, husband --" >> you're lying to me, i'm

concerned about my family, our family, you're not telling the truth, you're never home and i need to know what's going on! and they're going "boo!" (laughter) >> give the man some freedom, for god's sake, woman! what's wrong with you? you horrible slew! (laughter) >> rose: as it evolved, any surprises for you, for you, for you as the way it evolved from year to year? or did you feel yourself cast forward, projected forward once you settled in who your characters were and what made them tick? >> hmm. i was surprised in that -- not to keep telling the same story but in that episode four the first season i was surprised when walt told us writers that he wanted to be someone different than we had in mind. other than, that i'm surprised i'm sitting here on the charlie rose show talking about a show

that on paper shouldn't even have succeeded in the first place. it's astounding to me that this show has taken off the way it has. >> rose: astounding? >> astounding. i don't think that's an overstatement. this show on paper -- i go out and pitch this thing, i come up with this thing about a 50-year-old man who finds out in the first 15 minutes that he's dying of cancer. 50-year-old man -- >> rose: and you buy into the idea at the beginning that he's just a regular guy trying to make life work, don't you? or not? >> yeah, he's somewhat depressed. you know, he's -- >> rose: kind of a mid-life crisis. >> mid-life crisis but he's an honorable man, a family man, a teacher. he wants to spread the joy of his love-- chemistry-- to a sea of apathetic students and you kind of get his depression. and i think people can relate to that. and then all of a sudden the diagnosis of terminal lung cancer and you go "oh, this poor bastard!" and then when he decides to do this --

>> rose: he needs a new career! >> when he decides to do this totally irrational thing through this set of circumstances you are kind of going "i get it. i don't know if i would do the same, but i kind of get it." >> rose: location is also a character here. >> absolutely. >> rose: it gives you a place to weave your tale. >> it does, indeed. >> rose: why albuquerque? i love albuquerque, don't get me wrong. >> i love albuquerque, too. i do not know albuquerque that well. i only visited once or twice before. the good folks at sony came to me once the pilot got ordered by amc-- thanks to both companies from being so supportive-- and they said "your money can go farther shooting in new mexico rather than where you originally set your pilot which was riverside, california." because at that point in time the state of new mexico was offering a financial incentive. and they said "what's the big deal? you put new license plates on that say "california" instead of

"new mexico" and it will be fine. and i'm glad they came to us with this idea but i'm so glad i said "no, let's make it albuquerque." because the sad truth is unfortunately you can't swing a dead cat in this country without hitting a meth lab somewhere or other. that's a sad statement. >> it could have been california it could have been anywhere. no one state has the lock on it. it's a terrible drug and you find it wherever so it might as well as have been new mexico but it turned out to be the perfect place for us. >> rose: because? >> the beautiful skies, the amazing plains that go on forever. >> rose: the landscapes. >> the landscapes. >> rose: the giantness of the west. >> the western quality. we -- what i think we did for 62 episodes, we shoot a post-modern west children i'm very proud of. >> rose: what does that mean "a post modern western?" >> it's a contemporary story but it's a west of strip malls and

t.g.i. fridays but then you get a little away from that and you still have a man alone on the horizon facing down his enemies. you've got that with walter white. you've got a guy finding his way on his own. all these wonderful tropes. the mythic west that i love so much as a viewer. >> rose: you directed some episodes? >> i did. i directed three episodes and the last one being the first episode of the last season. and tremendous amount of work. i think that -- i just can't believe it. i can't believe it. >> rose: we work really hard, but we love it so it's all about telling the story and when you read the script and break it down it's the same advice michael mann gave to you. where's the story? and if you really understand the story and ln it will tell you where to place the cameras. where do we want to see this

scene take place and that's what i always respond to and it's wearing a lot of different hats but there's -- it's wonderful to be able to be the puppeteer and -- >> rose: was it easier for you because you knew the story, you knew everything? you can know about the primary character? the main character? and you knew the relationships? you knew everything? >> the history of -- the research was already done, the relationships are already established, not just with the cast but also the caruso so you can speak a short hand. >> rose: so what was hard about it other than you're doing two things. >> you're overwhelmed with the amount of work and we have a finite amount of time. >> rose: he has to do a scene, for example, we have to sit in the middle -- to do that -- the episode you directed where i guess that you're dealing drugs. that was the episode that you direct sod you had to sit there in that scene, we had to do that

intense scene and then in the middle of it we were staring into each other's eyes and then you said "oh, right, cut." (laughter) then you have to go and check the monitor and check a million things and everybody's asking the questions and you have to be the one to answer them and then you have to go back and go to the scene again and i remember you asking me saying "how did that scene go?" so you have to get answers that you can understand -- >> rose: you, do i depended heavily on them. i go to them and say how did you feel about that? >> rose: between the relationship between the two of you is there a bit of macbeth there? >> i did. i felt as things went on there was a little bit going on between two of us and it got to the point where there was a power play, there was a power struggle and there was also just this deal that had been struck between us and it became that shakespearean -- there was something about it that became

-- it really resonated that way for me between those two characters. >> what was so great about the whole concept that everyone's morality was compromised. when push came to shove, she had to decide as skyler am i in or am i out? and she decided to go in. which was a surprise to a lot of people! >> and they haded to do -- and that was very hard for you to -- you know, as you say, for you and the writers to figure out how to get skyler into it. >> well, again, and to the organ i can nature of story telling and something you mentioned last night. we wanted to forestall skyler's understanding of walt's extracurricular activities as long as possible at the beginning of season two -- at the end of season two we wanted to go another season or two with skyler still in the dark and we just looked at each other in the

writers' room and said "this character of skyler is too smart, the actress playing her is too smart. it will not wash if we go another season." so we changed our -- we did a 180 and suddenly at the -- suddenly it's like skyler knows everything. >> rose: and that makes it more interesting now. >> makes it scary in the writers' room but much more interesting story wise. >> rose: let's talk about the final episode by not talking about it. what was in your mind. what was the avoid this, do this any of that kind of thing? >> be satisfying. satisfy the audience. have an ending that feels correct, that feels fitting and charlie i have to tell you this past -- the year and a half worry about this ending is -- has taken years off my life! >> rose: we remember the ending so many great things, whether it's "m.a.s.h." or mary tyler

moore or on television or "the sopranos." but how do you bring everything together for the -- >> we spent the -- my six writers and myself spent hour upon hour upon hour enclosed in our writers' room asking ourselves the same basic questions over and over again. what do the characters want? that's the most organic and proper. >> that's a fascinating question. what do the characters want? >> you know what it really comes down to? if you -- and you know it when you're doing it. if you say "we've got this great idea for a scene i don't know how to get walter white there because he wouldn't do the things that one would need for him to get there but we'll drive round pegs into square holes and i'm not saying we never had great scenes that we tried to work toward but that's an inorganic way to tell stories and it feels wrong on the few

occasion wes did it. and the best story telling, conversely, seems to me is when you say to yourself over and over again "what does walter white want that the minute? what does skyler want? what does jesse pinkman want?" >> rose: you know where i'm going. what does walter white want? >> he wants -- well, he got a point where he wanted it all. >> rose: but what does he want by year five? >> he wants to be alive. even if that means he's going to be dead in a month or two. during that period, this course of two years that this this show takes. he was a walking dead man before. he was depressed, he missed opportunities and now he is -- at the very least you can say he's feeling everything. he was seduced by power and the aphrodisiac of money or

intimidation and all these things that make the chest come out and you stand up straight and it's very seductive for a man. and that's what he felt. >> rose: it's seductive for anybody. without going into criminalalty but it's seductive. the idea that i matter and i'm relative and i somehow have mower and am respected. >> even it's cloaked. you know, the word on the street is whoever's making this, whoever heisenberg is, it's the best ever. and he would be able to get some satisfaction out of that. >> rose: some say, aaron, that you look at vince and you hear him talk, he sounds like the nicest guy, a mild-mannered guy yet he has in his mind and the writers that joined him on this journey, this is dark stuff. (laughter) >> yeah, it's incredible. everyone that meets them has the

privilege of working with vince, will say he's the nicest guy that you ever have worked with. but there's something brewing deep inside. >> rose: what do you think it is? >> i'm not sure. we all have our little secrets. >> rose: have you discussed this before? >> he's just a mad genius. he really -- yeah, he really is. >> interestingly enough, i think that microcosm is where walter white is. we're not all kind and we're not all vicious. just like vince himself. it's a walking example of the types and the range and spectrum of emotions that we all have and we're all capable of being kind and all capable of being dangerous given the right set of circumstances. >> rose: and we can feel humanity and rage and jealousy and all the things to which others not well. what do you think? same thing? >> the same thing.

i think the explored the duality of that in all these characters in such detail and with such complexity is what makes people so fascinated with it. i think that's what draws them in more than anything. i know people get drawn into the show for various reasons. there are different things people love about the show. >> rose: story or character or all the things. >> yeah, but i think it's really that it reveals so much about human nature in a very authentic way that hasn't been done before in this way. and so you have this incredibly polite southern gentlemen but you -- but you have -- (laughter) you have a really twisted sense of humor and all that other stuff. >> just like most southern gentlemen. (laughter) not mentioning names. >> rose: i'm glad you wouldn't go there. (laughter)

so i'm trying to stay away from the final but i'm fascinated by where jesse might be going, you know? up to the seasons we've seen before this is without getting into where -- what actually happens. you can see jesse finding some kind of really interesting life. >> one would hope. >> rose: he's gone through a range of emotions. he has a bit of money, hasn't given it all away. >> and money clearly does not drive his character. >> rose: clearly he keeps going back and hangs out with his buddies. >> you're absolutely right. you want to just hug this guy. you want to protect him. you want jesse pinkman to ride off in the sun set. >> rose: and unlike this guy you can see that he's -- especially the killing of the young kid. he's saying i don't want to be part of this. walt never felt that. did he? or not. walt just accepted it as a -- as necessary. >> yeah. >> rose: or wants it to happen -- >> collateral damage is probably

how he would see it. a necessary unfortunate -- >> rose: story it happened but -- >> if it's necessary he has to do what he has to do. >> rose: but this guy turns him upside down. >> as i think it would most -- >> rose:s where he? >> he's just easily manipulated. walter white just knows how to just be the master puppeteer and jesse is just one of his many strings and jesse just -- he doesn't want to accept that this guy is so close to his is -- is that evil. he doesn't want to accept that but now that we're at a point at the end of last season he knows that he is that evil. i mean, he is -- (laughs) he wants to have nothing to do with him. he wants to stay away from him as far as possible. >> rose: there are also moments in which you writers got yourself in trouble. we have talked before about when

you got inside that wreck and hank is outside and you don't know how you're going to get out of this and the writers don't know how they're going to get you out. (laughter) the goal of the writers is to write themselves into a corner. i think peter gould mentioned this that it's always great to be forced into a corner by your characters and have -- and listen to them and talk about them and figure out how to get them out and what's so interesting is that we have been living with these characters for six years and still to the very last episode we're constantly being surprised by reading it. you'd think that we would see it coming. you'd think we would see things coming but it's like -- did you read that? (laughter) it's a wonderful gift. >> rose: there's also the scene in which hank is sitting on the toilet and he sees "leaves of grass" or whatever the book was. "leaves of grass."

just as a moment -- since it's already played, why discover that there? >> you -- well, i guess to subvert expectations is the best answer. >> rose: surprise, surprise, surprise. >> yeah, this is a man who is clearly very good at his job. sometimes, you know, i hear anecdotally from certain quarters that hank gets a bad rap for not seeing what's directly under his nose but i say in real life most of us don't see. if i found out my brother was a master criminal i would be very surprised, indeed, my brother patrick was suddenly a really bad guy. there's no way he could -- but so as far as this is a man who's good at his job, hank is. and you ask yourself in the writers' room what's the typical way of doing this? the typical way is for it to happen in the squad room or d.e.a. bullpen or whatever "hey, we got this information." it just seemed to subvert expectations to have it come at

a moment where life is good. it looks like there's going to be a happy ending and the scene where that episode written on my -- there's this prolonged outdoor cookout that they're having in the backyard of the white house, as we call it, by the pool. and it seems to be amounting to nothing and what we slope that you're at home saying "i know this is the last episode i'm going see for over a year, i'm looking at my watch, it's a happy ending? what kind of shell this for an ending for a season of "breaking bad." we stretched it out for as long as it could. hank goes into the bathroom to do what he needs to do -- >> rose: and find walts there in terms of the book. >> but you gave that hint early without it being a hint. did you know when you gave that hint that you wouldn't come back to it? had you seen that far and connected that way? the book had been mentioned. the book had been mentioned, walt had been asked about it and

he said "walt whitman?" and he got away with it when questioned by hank. and now the realization. so when you planted that scene early did you know in the end of episode four it would be the thing set off year five? >> when we first mentioned "leaves of grass" it was a throwaway. we had a wonderful actor named david constable and i just liked the idea that this character of gale betiker who was walt's new meth cooking partner who was the antithesis of jesse who knew chemistry inside and out and could quote walt whitman by memory, this wonderful -- a poem that i loved in high school when i heard the learned astronomer and that was a bit of a throwaway in that episode but then we realized walt whitman, walter white, w.w., and we thought maybe we could make hey

from that. maybe we could construct something that would ultimately -- >> rose: and that teed up year five. >> yeah. so it's one of those things that we get a lot of credit for for playing a deep game and we try to play as deep a game as possible as far as figuring out well in advance where things are going but i think the thing my writers and i did best was mine our history. in other words, go back and say what can we make use of? what eyes can we dot? what ts can we cross? what loose ends can we tie up? and make it look like we had this planned out all along. like we're really good at this when we're just good -- we're good keepers of our own history. >> rose: how has this changed your life and career? >> i mean, it's -- i tell this man -- at least try and tell this man 42 times a day how he gave me a career. i mean, he just has opened up so many doors and for six years

telling this story and living and breathing and jesse pinkman and the writing is just so perfect and i've just learned so much from this man. to be able to work opposite bryan cranston every single day i've grown so much as an actor and i'm getting kind of emotional right now because it's -- you know, once in a lifetime experience and i know i will never experience anything like this again and it's just so rough to kind of say good-bye to it and -- yeah, it's -- it's all downhill from here. (laughter) and i say that -- >> rose: you can't imagine having this kind of experience. >> right, i don't they in a bad way but -- >> rose: you think you'd be able to afford a suit.

>> i was wondering. >> i've been thinking about this that this entire time. >> rose: you don't think that's a sign of disrespect to me? >> i can't say. i can't speak that. >> you have to nicest suits. >> rose: and a nice tie. you would have had a nice tie. how did this change? this -- the sense of -- not only in terms of career opportunities but just a sense of -- >> rose: >> everything. it changed my life. it changed my career. it gave me -- it's like working with -- i say that acting with bryan is like playing tennis with a pro tennis player. you're -- you hit the ball across the net and it comes back a different way every time with a different spin and it makes you better. it makes you better every time. and it was a joy to go to work everyday and it was such a joy that i didn't feel like work,

actually. it felt like playing with my friends and it felt like making art i'm done a lot of t.v. i've done another great t.v. show before this "deadwood" but this honestly felt like playing and making art with my friends and it was extraordinary and it's changed me as an actress as well and made me a better actress because that role was challenging. it was a challenging role and i really thank you for that challenging role. i thank you because i really admired skyler and it was difficult at times for me to stick with it to really understand her myself at times but i'm so happy that i got that challenge and that i had the opportunity. it's done everything for me.

>> rose: i actually know what it's done for you. it's made you a magazine cover boy. (laughter) that have's exactly what it's done for you. (laughter) "popular mechanics" to the "g.q. ". >> rose: but sum it up for me. everybody knew you had all the things that they are in awe of, but a much large herb community got to feel over a period of five years what acting is about. >> yeah, it's -- you know, you -- i realize that i'm just embracing this entire experience with alacrity and gratitude. to be able to have this opportunity to perform at this level with this level of material is a gift that you -- we will never, ever forget and in the company of such talented artists as i was fortunate to

work with we knew that we were very lucky and we all knew that -- to the person that we love this art form and we love to perform so we look forward to mondays as opposed to here comes another monday. so we look forward to those days and then you can take a bite out of something and that includes the intimacies and the frustration that is inherent in the work as well and the joy of a scene well played and the -- it's just -- it's so -- the entire experience is too large to be able to give it its just due. it's changed all of our lives for the better and we owe it all to vince gilligan. >> we do, we do. >> ah, go on! (laughter) >> all right, i'll go on! (laughter) >> rose: thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you.

>> rose: thank you very much. thank you, my friend. it's great to have you here. august 11 will be the first episode. thank you for joining us. see you next time.

every single bite needed to be -- >> it's like a great big hug. >> about as spicy as i can handle. my parents put chili powder in my baby food. >> a lot of