. >> rose: welcome to the program, we begin this evening with a conversation about a new book that's getting extraordinary attention and praise. it is called "my promised land: the triumph and tragedy of israel" the author is ari shavit. we're joined by david remnick and jeffrey goldberg. >> take a step back and look at what a wonderful space it is and miracle with, man-made miracle israel is. this is very important to strike. the problem is that this great energy israel has in economy and the culture, in arts, in every day life, in night life, israel is a very lustful, sexy, creative place. and it's wonderful to live there, actually, when there are no wars. the problem is that that was not translated into political energy. i mean we are-- we have a failed political system. we have-- we don't have a

worthy leadership. and the great achievements of life, of the society were not translated into political vision, both for the country and regarding -- >> we conclude which a conversation about fashion and photography with giancarlo giammetti. >> an i believe designers have their own style, what fits their own style. they don't have to read it in the papers say oh, she say that my collection was boring, that i dress for-- or i dress for this i think that they have it, the great companies, st-laurent, valentino, chanel, armani, versace, they stick to their own vision and that's a success that make them forever. >> rose: israel and the world of fashion when we continue. ment funding for charlie rose was provided by the following: additional

funding provided by these funders. and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. from our captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> history was made as the jewish state of israel was born. conceived in strife and weaned in violence, israel has flour shalled to become a constructive place in world affairs. >> rose: it resulted in the creation of the state of israel ban in 1897 it was lead by london lawyer herbert bentrick and a delegation of 21 british jews. against all odds the nation

these men had a essentialed stands today. great sand sonari shavit believes the survival of israel is not a foregone conclusion. a popular israel columnist and the author of a new book called my promise land the triumph and tragedy of israel. joining me now for a conversation about israel are ari shafit, and david recommend nick editor and chief for "the new yorker" an jeffrey goldberg author an columnist for bloomberg view. let's get the praise over at the beginning. what do you think this book does? what does it accomplish coming at the time that it does when there's a lot of things going on in the middle east whether israeli negotiations with the palestinians, whether it's iran or whether it's syria. >> well, i should probably indemnify myself. oif's known ari for a long time. before i knew him i knew him as a great columnist. and there is a review coming out next sunday in the sunday book review. and my favorite sentence perhaps in it is he says this is the least

tandencious book i have ever read about israel. it is the least one-sided, the least, it's not hurling bricks. it both loves its country and recognizes the innate problems with it. the founding crimes, even, in 1947, 1948. and tries to grap well that and recognize just as with the founding of this country, that we're in, there are terrible things about the united states and its history. we know slavery was endemic to it for over a century. this book is a history of israel, a deep history that also is deeply passionate and completely aware of itself. it's not a memoir but it's infused by ari's family,

personality, and the journalism that he's done over the course of, i don't know, 30 odd years as a writer for arts. it's not the only book about israel but it's the most extraordinary book that i've read on the place since almost the book israeliies pub will beed in the late 60s. >> do you really want me to praise him? >> tell me about the book. >> fine. >> i can do that. the interesting thing to me is that we in america have and american jewish community have a very brutal kind of conversation about israel. either it's israel all the way, it's never done anything wrong, i mack you latly conceived, guildless or the alternative view is that israel is some sort of, you know, carrier of all of the sins of k08 onialism and imperialism and in hubris and ar sytoo complicated for that. and i think this book will allow the reader and will allow his audience to understand israel as a

deeply complicated place that he loves very much. one of the things that comes through, there are some extraordinary passages of criticism of the founding of the state, the way the state is organized today. but what comes through is his love for the place as both a normal place and extraordinary place. and we don't have that-- israel is object find in a kind of way in our conversations in america. it's-- it doesn't exist, it's just a symbol. and he brings it down to earth and he allows people to understand it in all of its complicated wonder. >> rose: someone said that you set out to get inside the dna or you got inside the dna of israel. and someone said to me that you liked that, that that in a sense, some have caught what you were trying to do. >> i hope this is the case. i think my initial feeling was that really the narrative was lost. i think that both israelis and people talking about israel have lost because of the daily friction and

debate and the ongoing coverage, they lost sight, we lost sight of the big picture. and i thought that my mission is really to try to rewrite, to bring back the basic narrative again in a way that is personal, that is human. this is nonfiction that tries to be as fictional as possible in the kind of literary way, to bring history down to the human level. deal with individuals, not just concept. combine insights with emotion and it is really my own searching as an israel. i think when i went out i asked myself three questions. why israel, what's israel and will israel. and i tried to answer these questions not in a kind of-- but through the stories, through bringing back the amazing story which is both miraculous and tragic. and i tried to root that too the book. so the narrative will be

restored and the discussion both in israel and regarding israel, and definitely in this country will, and again hopefully start a fresh in a more reasonable sensible and comprehensive manner. >> rose: you talk about the triumph and the tragedy of israel. you seem to suggest, i'm simplifying this way too much, i suspect, that what has to happen, if there's ever to be some agreement between palestinians where they can live with their own state and israel where they can live with security s that the israelies have to recognize some terrible things they have done. and the palestinians have to go beyond and find someplace beyond resentment about what happened. >> absolutely. i think it is my moral obligation as an israeli to recognize that we have done wrong to our other, to the palestinians. and i go to that in great detail and where a lot of pain in the book. and i must tell you, this is something i feel almost on a

daily basis as i live in that countryment but at the very same time i think it's the palestinians moral and reasonable obligation to overcome that trauma. because there were, i described in the trauma of leader, the-- the city in-- . >> rose: tell because it is. >> it is a city in mid israel that was conquered by the israeli for itses in 1948 and all the population was driven out. and so i think it's my obligation to see that, to see what had happened and to put it in a kind of, as honest as i can about that. but it is the palestinian obligation to overcome their trauma. because there have been in history, in recent history things much worse than lido. and i'm not talking about what evil powers did, what the british did in dresden or what was done to the czeches, that is much worse than lida. and yet other people in europe and elsewhere have

overcome it they did not just keep on lingering on that. so i say to the palestinians, yes, i acknowledge that. i recognize that. i feel for you. i think there is a moral obligation for me to establish your independent state but you please move on. don't be stuck with that painful past. because that's part of the palestinian, the problem with the palestinian political, the culture that the victims, the addiction to victimhood is very dangerous. so yes, i understand you, i have empathy i want the dialogue to be based on the past, not ignoring but let's move on. >> you have interviewed and know well benjamin netanyahu. >> i do. >> rose: has he read the book? >> not that i know of. but he was given advice recently to read the book. so i hope will. >> rose: but freedman in the column and probably by other people. my point is though because you know him, does he believe what you have come to believe here in your judgement based on

conversations. >> that israel has to be preparedded to acknowledge and move forward, the palestinians have to be prepared? >> i think, look, unlike many of my peers in the israeli media, national media, left of centre, i am not into netanyahu bashing. i see there ask some virtues to israel's prime minister. i think he's right on some matters. and yet there are several things that are deeply flawed in what he presents to the world. one of them is the lack of hope in his vision. the lack of generosity. the lack of willingness to reach out. and the other is this lack of empathy to the others. by the way, he's not very-- he doesn't have a lot of empathy to many israelis. but i would like to see, and never mind the person. i would like an israeli leader who on the one hand fights for israel, defends

israel guards its security but reaches out to the palestinians to try to achieve some sort of emotional breakthrough, to speak to them as humans, as individuals, not just as adversaries. and i really hope we will have that leader who will combine the two. be tough, be peaceful wishing, and really speak out to the palestinians in the way that i think we should. with real empathy and understanding their tragedy. >> rose: in the challenge facing israel today, tell me how you guys see it. what is the challenge for netanyahu and palestinians beyond this very important idea in order to -- i mean john kerry is over there trying to get something going. we just read there was a long 90 minute conversation between netanyahu and president obama. >> well, one of the problems, let me just step back for 1 second. because this is something interesting about the israeli left, of which ari is a member. and this has to do with today's atmosphere. one of the things he said is

one of the things the palestinians have to do is get over their resentment. one of the things ari does in this book only intermittently because he is a good israeli leftist and he has a jewish masco chis particular streak, a little bit, or maybe a lot. >> get the phrase out in the beginning. >> jewish, that is a compliment. but what he does also is he reminded palestinians or more to the points the arabs who took the palestinians, took charge of the palestinians in 1948 and reminded them that the catastrophe that befell them was partially self-inflicted. that lida, that these battles and massacres did not happen in a vacuum. they happened after the arabs decided to try to kill the nascent state of israel. i mean the message for the right is look at what-- look at what happened in the name of zyonism. the message for the left is the arabs have agency here too. and they made decisions that brought about catastrophe both for themselves and for the jews.

>> we should also say the israeli left is a lot more complicated than just ari. there are people well to the left of ari on a number of questions. and frankly missing in this conversation is any palestinian voice. and i would hope that this book is also read by some palestinians and who have argument and answering histories with it. that is an extremely useful thing. you ask about the peace process now. i mean i think considering what's going on in the greater middle east, in syria, with iran, and with in-- within palestine itself to say nothing of the dimings of the israeli political situation which is still quite right leaning, it would be quite a miracle for john kerry to get his wrb and for all of us to get our wish which is a stable two state solution. it is not lost on me or ari

or anybody at this table that frustration is so deep about this that other solutions are often brooded about on the left which is well to the left of ari. which is to say a one state solution discussion. >> rose: where we are today, tomorrow and tomorrow and move to iran in just a moment but jeffrey, i don't understand what john kerry is promoting. >> i don't know if john kerry knows. you know, i interviewed john mccain last week at a program in washington. and he called kerry a human wrecking ball am i guess he had been listening to myly cyrus or something, i don't know what. but i think that's unfair. >> get that out of your mind, as quickly as you can. it's probably unfair but he does seem to be sort of ping-ponging his way through the middle east, causing consternation among all of america's allies, arab and israeli, wherever he goes. there is something very noble about this the previous secretary of state did not want to deal with the middle east peace

process because it seemed like kind of a losing proposition this is kerry's last job. he's not running for anything and he wanted to take this on. it's not the propitious moment to take it on and he's up against, and ari does this split very well. you know, there are legitimate worries about iran. and israel could help itself in the international understanding of israel's position by probably giving a little bit more on the palestinian front. there's no linkage there. >> even a lot more. >> well, just to start, a little bit more and so what happens, unfortunately for john kerry is that these two issues comingled in the last couple of weeks. and he alienated netanyahu, maybe justifiably but alienated netanyahu by talking about the palestinian process and making some hard demands on israel precisely at the point he's trying to selis real on an iran package israeli doesn't like so things sort of became chaotic in the last couple of weeks. and not very hopeful or helpful. >> being positively

catalytic they were not, they were negatively catalytic. >> let's begin with three issues here. let's begin with the palestinians. i may just say something about the book it's important to me to stress that beyond the way i deal with the conflict and all that goes with it, this is really like a celebration of israel. and this is, it's not only about all these heavy things because the fact -- >> i mean the book is really what i say about israel that israel is an amazing phenomenon of vitality against all odds. and. >> it's one part and a significant part. >> very important part. and it's and again i think that after you do, you're honest enough to dealing with the problems, the things, the conflict and so on, you may step, take a step back and look at what the wonderous place it is and what a miracle with its man-made miracle israel is. and this is very important to strike. the problem is that this

great energy israel has in economy and the culture, in arts, in every day life, in night life, israel is a very lustful sexy creative place. and it's wonderful to live there actually when there are no wars. the problem is that that was not translated into political energy. i mean we are, we have a failed political system. we have, don't have a worldly leadership and the great achievements of life, of the society were not translated into political vision. both for the country and regarding peace. we are a disconnect with palestinian. in my mind the great failure of the israeli central left and israeli community is it stuck to this plan a idea. either final status tomorrow, peace now, peace ceremony at the white house lawn with nobel prizes, or nothing. now it's most of the time it was nothing and therefore you have more settlements and things are getting worse on the ground. i think that the basic

mistake was the lack, we should put in the distinction between occupation and peace. the left and international community were right in saying occupation was unacceptable and settlements were wrong. they were wrong in promising peace tomorrow. my great fear is that secretary kerry to whom si have a great admiration. i totally agree with jeff, i think he is a moral person, a noble person, he's trying to save the two state solution. but if he gets it wrong, god forbid, he might bury the-to-state solution. and i do not understand this is not a personal matter of just him. >> rose: what would getting wrong be. >> exactly. i will tell you exactly. i think that the right, i think we need a new peace conference, regarding the palestinians, it has to be moving to some sort of if possible interim agreement, if not possible, coordinated unilateralism reretreat gradually question. not retreat overnight to the 67 lines but begin to

dismantle settlements. we give, what i want is the palestinians to have it better every year, every quarter. i want them to have at every given moment more political space, more economic space, more geographic space than the one before. i think that right now because i understand their trauma and their sickee, they cannot make that geological, almost theological concession needed for final status. and israel on its side is so confused that it cannot. so rather than go for a account el in the sky let's go for the at any time on the ground that can grow, work for a tate that we gradually awe cassiusly retreat while the palestinians are doing their nation building with the constructionive palestinian forces that are there building it. >> the great problem with this, and i don't disagree, but the great difficulty of this is this is a problem that began in 1967. 1967, so it's the great majority of the existence of the state of israel. >> not a long time in the

history of the middle east. >> no, but in the political, it's almost all the time in the history of israel. and how many generation of palestinians which has created the political culture that you described. and to expect that to ease tensions very quickly is you know difficult. >> look, i think actually president obama got it right and then got it wrong. in 2009. because i think -- >> got he right then got it wrong. >> i will tell you why. his idea of settlement freeze i think was the right idea. the way he tried to implement it was wrong. why is that the right idea. because as we speak, the two state solution is bleeding to death with the settlement going on. so you have to stop that. but it had to be beyond 9 bloc, i don't want to get not details. the way it was put forward was wrong. if we have the kind, the right kind, is the sophisticated freeze effort, the palestinians immediately will feel some change because the settlements will stop. and then you can begin a process that will be much

more humble, modest. it won't be that ambitious it will not bring nobel prizes but it will bring a closure to two state solution. >> ari, you're describing, you said are you against castles in the sci but you are describing something that is ambitious given the reality on the ground which is there is no sign at all, without moving to your left now there is no sign at all that the israeli government is interested in put aside the issue of rolling back the settlements, they're not interested in freezing the settlement growth so we're still in a little bit of a fantasy land. >> that is what i said before. i believe that just as i believe in the vitality of israel, i think that if the israeli silent majority, the israel center would be offered a reasonable idea, that does not think to be detached from reality, i think that we will see this moderate israeli majority actually emerging. i think is still potentially there. when you offer people something they know is a fantasy, they do not believe it, there is-- they will not

go for it. so try to create a third partnership between progressive america, between the international community and progressive israelis on the long-term cautious ending occupation slant, while the palestinians gradually build their state. >> it should be said that the picture of the israeli political culture is extremely confusing and not entirely optimistic. the last selection you had the big story in the end was the emergence of lapid who is a tv star, very handsome, a kind of centrist. >> what's wrong with that. >> i think you should run charlie. >> charlie rose knows less about israel. >> and governor of north carolina said-- . >> rose: he said it sort of contempuously. >> can i have that back? >> rose: there is no back. >> there is to back.

used everything. >> point taken, point taken. he was-- you know that was the big story but at the same time you had the right-moving farther to the right. you have people like danny denon who is very high up in the likud party. these are malign influences on the future of this argument. really dismal. and you have a situation where bebe netanyahu, benjamin netanyahu may well be isolated in his own party. >> ironically, amazingly, for all the bashing of netanyahu i do do, an i think i'm right, there are people well to the right of him. bennett and-- . >> rose: he's coming on this program in several days. but the idea of netanyahu, does very any of this sort of nixon can go to china thing?

>> that's a question we've been wrestling with for 20 years. >> let's because i know him pretty well, i've been following him. when he speaks to people like me and like barak and the american-- you feel there is some hope. and it is still to be materialized. i will connect it again. i think that he'll be tested 23 if the concept on the table is a realistic one. -- wrote many years ago what counts with a leader is that the people will feel that he knows what the world is about. and i urge americans the viewers of this program to realize that most mode el eastern people, not only israel, now feel that america and international community do not realize what the middle east is about. that's a very dangerous notion. because we need american

leadership to stabilize the region and to prevent violence. and if the saudies and egyptians and jordannians and israelis and even the turks now begin to feel that the american leadership and the international, it's not only american, it's not specific individuals, las lost touch of what the middle east is really about, that's very dangerousment because that will play into the hands of the extremists. if the reasonable concept will be at the table, netanyahu will really be tested and i think there is a chance that the israeli moderate majority will emerge. if the concept is not like that, look this is a very dangerous situation. talking what david talked about. if the kerry initiative will crash n a few month's time, by next summer we might see a terrible crisis, political crisis. i don't expect violence. that will play not hands of israeli extremists, palestinian extremists. >> and americans like kerry,

are so benign and noble, really i admire-- but he might achieve exactly the opposite result. because people like no other secretary will try it again. because the lesson will be everybody will feel betrayed. >> he went out and said this is the last chance. i think he was trying to motivate people to pay attention but you really shouldn't say this is the last chance just in the same way that he also said last week. he said if he with don't do this, we will have new violence. don't promise new violence. the middle east has enough of that. so there have been some real missteps or real rhetorical problems. >> this is not-- netanyahu first priority is not the palestinians. >> first, second, third priorities are wrong. >> let's go to there, even today in the financial times there were two stories, you know, about you know somebody, a part of the government comes stepping forward to say israeli is closer to a strike. where do you think it stands? >> i'm worried. i'm worried. the right approach about

iran is assertive diplomacy. i think that mistakes were done mainly by the bush administration. i think the moment to really deal with iran was ten years ago, 8 years ago, 7 years ago. i think george bush rather than to go to iraq with the war should have gone to iran with the political economic campaign. i think that had iran faced an economic political siege in 2005, 2007 under bush t would have abandoned its nuclear problem. now it is very late in the day. there were many mistakes made in america, in israel as well, by the way and by the europeans. and we might face the last moment of the sort of diplomatic approach. so again, my prayers. >> the last moment, we're facing. >> the last moment, last month, the last, it's the last season for assertive diplomacy to work. so god forbid, god forbid

we'll be in this junction of bombing, both are catastrophic. so i pray really that the people leading the negotiations now will try to strike the right deal. because if it's the wrong deal, if god forbid the iranians will outplay the werners they negotiate with, the result will be very seriousment because i think i ran is not an israel issue. iran is really a civil challenge for the west. if iran god forbid goes nuclear we will see a different world order. and it will have implications on life in new york, not only tel aviv. >> and sitting where you do, do you believe the president of the united states sees that and understands that, an is prepared to act. >> or does israel and saudi arabia and lots of other people believe he's not prepared to act and so therefore -- >> so right now they do not believe, they do not-- this

is part of the danger of this. because you don't want to drive the saudis and israelis and all the others to the corner. as i wrote in an op ed a week ago, if the mood in washington is obama going to china vis-a-vis iran, the dang certificate there are four, five taiwans here who feel betrayed and might become very, very dangerous. and that's something to think of. but beyond that, jeff goldberg was told by the president that he's not bluffing. that is what he said in a very, very interview, how long ago. >> about a year and a half ago. >> and now the point is i think that for two years the president -- >> what sign is there that he is blufing. >> on the contrary, i'm saying that i was very impressed with the president in 20111/2012. he led sanctions. i hope he doesn't lose that. >> rose: but what has changed is what happened in syria has lead to a perception, perhaps not. because people thought he

was trying to escape the commitment of the red line in syria. >> right. which only holds true if you believe that obama treat its syria in the same way he treats iran. at that level of importance. i don't happen to think that. i mean one of the problems in this conversation is that, in fact, we've been spending the last couple of years saying the administration and israelies have been saying oh, the prime minister and presidency eye-to-eye. they both rant to prevent iran from getting a nuclear bomb. but the problem is that is not actually true, if you listen carefully. israel wants to prevent iran from reaching the nuclear threshold to become a state that within months of a decision could be nuclear. president obama has been clear. he does not want iran to get a bomb. i think he would use military force to prevent iran from getting a bomb. but keeping iran two or three months from a bomb is a completely different subject so we have been making believe. >> rose: but that's not a different subject for the israelis, they believe 2 or 3 months. >> it means they are a nuclear state, to israel.

>> rose: so therefore you have this difference. >> it is a big difference. >> rose: a huge dense. >> and why is that not enough, why is that state of affairs not enough with a nuclear united states and a nuclear israel, something rarely brought newspaper the conversation on the israeli side. >> meaning containment will work? >> well, you're not-- in other words, if you keep israel-- iran at a point where they are months away and they are, they have civilian view -- >> it could be weeks. >> could be week force one thing. >> yes, please. >> first of all i think in the very bad situation we are n the best solution is that iran will be like a year away, set the clock, really, not make believe, five years back-- so they will be at least a year away, so then if they do try to break out, america and others will have the ability to try to do something. if it's just a few weeks away, the machine, american machine is too slow. but i do want to say something.

whyi think look i've been alarmist about iran although i never supported an israeli strike or american strike because i felt we should not arrive at this juncture. but the reason i'm so sorried about. i believe the nuclear iran means i don't think this will throw a bomb on tel aviv. i think it means a nuclear middle east. saudi arabia will go nuclear. turkey will go nuclear. you will have a multipolar nuclear system in the most unstable, fanatic -- >> so one cannot turn a blind eye to that prospect. and this is why, you know, in a sentence, a zufert, very assertive diplomacy now before this happens. >> if iran goes right up to the nuclear threshold and succeeds in doing that despite american desires that they not do that, it probably spells the end of american influence or domination of the middle east and its replacement by iran which means what we're seeing now already. this new unlikely appliance between israel and saudi

arabia. where all of these countries, all of america's allies don't feel they can trust the united states to have their back any more. >> all of it exacerbated by a collapsed, horrendous situation in syria which is fast becoming a kind of center of slaughter an jihadism and the rest with an enormous -- >> and russia and hezbollah all all that let me turn from those hot points to this. suppose back to this, suppose there is no change. what happens to israel? and it continues to use settlements to extend into things that the palestinians believe fervently are necessary for their survival, their chance of a state, what becomes israel? in those circumstances. >> israel is facing old threats israel faces are

changing. some of them are gone. the risk of the arab military invasion of israel is nearly gone. the arab nation surrounding us are much weaker. and many of em them are actually becoming our allies in a funny sort of way under the table. >> the main-- israel has many internal threats, but the main external threat with one, the iran issue, and possibly nuclearization of the region and the other is the fact that we are committing suicide now. ongoing occupation is not only wrong morally, that's the first point but it is a cancer-killing israel from within. if we lose the jewish majority, if we lose the legitimacy of this benign project, hero oik project, if we let the settlers taint what is so right and amazing about the israel, then gradually we'll sink into a

situation of slow, it will not be like death immediately but it will be, will become an unlegitimate political body. in my mind this is the great-- i mean iran and occupation are the two greatest things that threaten our actual existence and our future. and we fail to deal with this in, to deal with this properly in the last decade which is to our shame. >> you talked to israeli businesspeople some of whom i have met through ari. and they keep another passport. they have one foot out the door. so elites are have 24 feeling of a kind of transitional feeling that they might leave if things get worse. it's not just jewish worry, it's not a joke. i think that also there's an american issue here. most traditional and strongest

ally has largely been the united states. and allots of that influence comes from jewish americans. and those, that pressure that interest is becoming attenuated in certain communities, particularly in secular communities. peter binet wrote about this in his book at great length. and i know is a controversial book, even at this table. but i on this point i really agree with him. i think you see my orthodox brothers and sis ferrs, and i have relatives in that community, are much more in its israel right or wrong camp which is not this bock. but a lot of my brothers and sister, especially younger people and their children, their interest in israel is not what it was in prior generations, in fact some of them look at it with a measure of embarrassment which i think is tragic. and a symptom of the cancer of occupation.

it's hard to feel something, close to something, deeply close to something that is as morally questionable an flawed as this as much as you might want to think otherwise you only have two great jewish communities left in the world, this one here and israel. combined it is about 80%. the american jewish community is more universallistic, more a simmistic, detriballized. israel and maybe ari will contradict this, israel seems to be more tribal, more religious, more middle eastern in a kind of way in the negative senses. and that can't hold forever. i mean are working hard to do that. i think the prime minister of israel again to go back to this idea that netanyahu was kind av a leftist in his own party, i think he understands some of these dilemmas, his party is to the-- he might have stayed in the same place but the

party is gone by the support of the american jewish community is a national security interest of the communitied-- of israel. nice thing to have. i totally agree with both you. totally agree. the importance of israel, when you go to the core is that it was an attempt to save nonorthodox jewish civilizations. first to save the jewish people physically from what happened 40, 50 years later. but beyond to that save nonorthodox jewish civilization, so the need for progressive jewish americans and progressive israelis to maintain that is-- for both. i mean progressive jewish americans need israel but they need an israel that they can redate-- relate to. so in my mind the settlers are really the most dangerous post zionist they are. they are actually undermining the very he

sense of the zionist project. i feel sdpit. and i feel a commitment as a jewish israeli to help them in their struggle to keep their life here as the great american jewish community here and i want them to stand by me in a sense and their kids. but to do that the settlement and darkest side are the greatest on stable. they are the ones endangering this relationship. we must get back to a progressive israel, working with progressive american jews to save this project as a progressive and juice project. >> i think charlie that the many great virtues of this book that one of the subjective themes of the book is an argument for a liberal version of zyonism. there is something that sunday great -- >> returning to its origina original-- great attack from the left, far left i would

say. that feel that liberal zionism is but dedelusion that in fact david grossmans of the world are in fact more morally deluded even than the right wing because they are not somehow true to themselves. well, this book is about that, also. got history of israel, about its flaws, its deep flaws. and also its great virtues and it's historical success in many ways. it's about its friends, about its enemies and it is an argument and implicit argument for liberal zionism. >> is it also about survival? >> very much so. but i think ari not for the first time in his writing scarce the hell out of us by putting that into question. it is not a book that has supreme confidence about the future. >> you said in an op ed in "new york times" there is an

intriguing ling between the arab spring sweeping the middle east and prot test movement changing the face of the jewish state as both arabs and israelis look in when its old piece is dead but a new piece might be born. >> absolutely. it has a message and a kind of hope for something practical. old piece, i think is dead. i hope not but i think so. that does not, should not lead to despair and loss of hope. because there are actually a lot of opportunities, some of the things that were described here. i think that a new concept about the israeli-palestinian concept, you attempt to enter occupation, bringing back a new alliance with the approximated rate arabs, many opportunities in this, there are many opportunities and but fwlord to do that we have to be honest. we have to be courageous, we need to go back to intellectual work which we on the center left have not done properly for many years. i think that if we do that, there's actually hope.

although a lot of what i describe is harsh and some people fear that there is a pessimism analysis. i'm basically an opt nist. i really believe in the strength of that nation. and i do believe that although we must recognize the jews are endangered, by the way they are endang ared there and here. the future is not guaranteed but if we look at that challenge in the eye and work together, i believe we would not only survive but thrive. >> thank you, the book is my promised land, thank you, david. >> thank you. >> back in a moment, stay with us. >> i was there all the time with him, in this fashion house, that already sees that valentino was for sure its-- of fashion but was the loudest businessman notice world and his company was doing very, very badly.

we decided that the best way to do it was just to close the business, go bankrupt, and open another business together. >> giancarlo geomet syhere. he oversaw the business end of valentino for almost 50 years. they were friends and much more. he was featured in the 2008 documentary valentino, the last emperor. he published a book of photographs that is called private giancarlo giammetti, i'm pleased to have him back at this table, welcome. >> nice to see you again. >> this passion for photography which we see so much of in this book has been with you a long time. >> first i have to say that they are not photography as in art photography this is a book with photography. it is a more a book of memmories. always showed pictures to the member what i was doing. i understand from the beginning that valentino and i were having an amazing

life. how to remember everything. better than with the camera. also don't forget that at a time a cameras with something at the table because they were-- so you would share with friends, it was almost a way to have a conversation through its pictures and they love that. andy warhol in fact gave me -- >> pulled out the camera all the time. >> all the time it was fun because you pull it out on the dining table, and everybody was a scratch to make it more interesting. and the right thing. it was really a great. to discuss, to talk to have fun. >> so i took it, i took them in normal camera and then i went to digital camera, of course. everything was in albums,

everything was perfectly archive, finally i decide to have a specialized company in achieving. was really something seriously. to archive my in a professional way my pictures. and to have a high definition, everything was already to be published. at a time i had 57,000 pictures. >> 57,000. >> ,000, right. going from its 1630 to 2012. which was the last picture i put in the book. so there was a lot of work in choosing them. >> thises is the cover for the book, this is what it comes in, there is you at what age? >> 27. >> how old how ol were you. >> 22. >> we talked about this on it this program, do you

remember that opinions yes, we do. >> and this is some of the kinds of people that are from valentino, to michael jackson. >> let's take a look at some of these there he is you and valentino at what age. >> just the beginning, i was 22, val tino was 28, this is now first office room, you see it was very simple. if i look at the-- at least we should have-- put more books because it looks like an empty house. but that's the way we live. >> define for me you know how you have contributed to each other's life. you have been essentially part of each other's life. you have a good business because you made serious contributions to that. he's been a great designer and you appreciated that. i understood from the

beginning that valentino was doing one thing. and knew how to do one thing, designing. designing is not stupidly just a sketch address, of course. valentino is a perfect vision how a woman should dress. he always say and told you, i guess several times, that it looks for beauty. women should be more beautiful. his work is to make women more beautiful. his work is to make men like their woman, be proud of those women. which was a great vision, i think, that is still there with him. and but didn't know anything about it, about business. about business, about accounting, about anything. when i start to work with him, it was in 1960. also don't forget in 1960 fashion was not like today. i mean today it is an

industry. with a lot of people working. you have a marketing people, advertising people. then we have just the two of us and me trying to invent that advertising should be done in this way. that bias should be greeted this way. that production, so it was very, very, very little company. what was my aim. to live free. to live free, to work in the best way you want. >> tell me. >> she's number one. in pie book and my life, in my imagination of somebody with power and desperation. she was an amazing woman. so generous. in the meantime so inspiring. i remember she was calling us the boys until she died, even if it were -- >> its boys were here. >> we were already 50. the boys are here so let's do something for the boys. and she would take us to the most outrageous places, that

just opened. st. mark's, i don't remember, even theatre in the liquid theatre and to see a show like hair which was a scandal at the time. of course the naked people on stage. and she would be there every day, every night to watch and play with everybody. and she was also very generous. she gave us the-- museum first time it opened to fashion in 28ee. she gave us, she was the costumist -- -- whatever, top manager. and she gave us an opportunity. we did a big show there and then we did of course a dinner. and it was her. >> jackie kennedy. >> oh, jackie has a different responsibility because she really put valentino on the map. she was the one who really started to dress in valentino and everybody knew. everybody discovered valentino. also she chose valentino

dress to marry onassis, so also that contribute to the fame of valentino. and there alliance. she was an amazing woman and human being. and of course the world will be different if she stayed more with us. >> sofia loren. >> sofia loren is a fan, really, is-- friend, is a close friend. she is such a-- an amazing woman. she spent a lot of occasions with us. and she arrived she has no-- and so you ask do you want makeup, do you want hair. >> no, no, i do all by myself. >> dow want dresses. >> yes, yes, of course, but i wear my corset. i mean she does everything for herself.

she close herself in a room. she make up herself, her hair, everything. >> she comes out, she's a diva or better. >> andy warhol. >> pictures on the cover here we showed you. >> andy was i can tell you a story which is a bit crazy. but my english was not very good. so at a moment he's manager, fred hughes say to me, you know, andy does a portrait. you want valentino to have a portrait. and i say of course. i told okay, he's getting inspired by valentino looks. andy wants to portray him. i didn't realize he was doing commercial portrait. so he come to the house. he does a thousand polaroids, throw them on the floor, et cetera, et cetera, okay, okay, okay. you know, andy was speaking very little. was not a man of words. so no big discussion at the time. a few months later we come

here and fred tell me the pictures are ready. oh, great. can we go and see them. of course. we see those four beautiful pictures and it's nice. and how much they are. and they give me a price which of course at the time was nothing compared to today. >> rose: right. >> and i say oh, no, they ray bit too expensive for us, you know, we didn't have much money at the time. and so he say what did you order o the pictures. i said you didn't order, you told me wants to do it i didn't order. and so the pictures stayed with him. and we bought two of them. 25 years later, paying, of course, a fortune. and just to having two because the other two the museum wanted to keep. >> of all the people there's also gwynest paltrow too, without seems to have a close relationship and ann hathaway and actresses that have a certain style and

dignity about them. >> we don't chose them. >> rose: they choose you. >> no, no, definitely things happen. but friends are friends, you know. you forget if they are a superstar or not it definitely what you say, they are nice people, they are nice people. with great feelings. and they care about you. they don't just look at you like somebody who should supply dresses. that's the difference with many others. >> rose: would you and valentino agree, would you have the same opinion of who was the greatest designer of all time. without, was there one single person so inspired, so brilliant, so talented. >> yeah, a few. but i think both of us believe definitely st-laurent, was amazing. >> rose: and why was that? >> what did he have.

>> because we are still thinking about elegance and they get into your mind. >> rose: they get into your mind. >> immediately, you think elegance, you think about chanel, or st-laurent. >> rose: where is this. >> this is my office in rome. >> rose: your office in rome. >> yeah. >> rose: oh boy, look at this. look at that that's what i call a nice office. >> anyway congratulations on this. >> it is in a sense a life, isn't it there's a life right there of friendship. >> it is a special life, an amazing life and i thank god that i had it. >> rose: an continue to have it. >> absolutely. >> thank you, giancarlo. >> thank you. >> thank you for joining us. see you next time.

captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> funding has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 2002. and american express. additiona funding provided by these funders

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