>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight, an invasion from british theater and film. the stars of "all that fall" from michael gambone and dime eileen atkins and the director sir trevor nunn. >> somebody i heard lecturing about becket said something that i think is genius that somebody in the audience was complaining that beckett can seem to be so pessimistic and this lecturer said "i think in beckett there is a pessimism that makes optimism look like sentimentality. >> ooh. >> i thought that was devastating and i think that's -- that's the illumination we get from him.

>> rose: and then there is the new british film called "philomena" which stars dame judi dench. we talk to her costar, television star steve coogan. >> i wanted to make the story which although it was a tragedy that happened in her life with her son, i wanted people to be somehow leave the cinema in an optimistic or hopeful frame of mind. so the way to find in that in the story was to be led by philomena. because philomena's grace and fortitude and stoicism in the face of all that was quite inspiring. >> rose: sir michael gambone, sir trevor nunn, dame eileen atkins and steve coogan when we continue. captioning sponsored by rose communications

from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: edward albee once said "i am not interested in living in the city where there isn't a production by samuel beckett running." a ground breaking production of "all that fall", a play beckett wrote for radio, arrives in new york this week following a run in london. joining me today, the director and the two main characters. all three legends of the theater. sir trevor nunnd is artistic director at the theater royal having previously served with the royal shakespeare company and the national theater. he also directed the enormously successful musicals "cats," "starlight express" and "les

miserables". dame eileen atkins has lit up the stage since she joined the royal shakespeare company in 1957. since then she's won three olivier awards as well as an empty and bafta for her performance in "krapb ford." sir michael bam bone is quite simply called the great bam bone." he was tkrebg selected by sir lawrence olivier and considered one of the greatest living stage actors also well known for playing albus dumbledore in the harry potter movies. i'm pleased to have them here with me at this table. welcome. here we have two great actors, a great director in a play by a great playwright who basically said this is a radio play and i never want to see it on stage. that's what we have here, right? >> we do, indeed. i first read it when i was at university. i tried to mount a stage production of it about 15 years later for the r.s.c. and i was told most emphatically no and ten years after that i tried

again while i was at the national theater and i was told emphatically no. and a few years after that i tried one more time. no. and then -- >> rose: who was saying no? >> the estate and at the time that would have -- originally that would have involved beckett himself and always the answer was it was written for radio, it can only be done as a radio play. but then two years ago i suppose i had rather a cheeky idea and i wrote to the estate and said "could i do it on stage if the set for the stage production is a radio studio?" >> rose: oh! >> and they said "yeah, you could do that." i couldn't believe i was hearing the word yes! >> rose: so beyond beckett, why were you so insistent on this? >> it's -- it's a very rare piece of drama by beckett.

during the middle of his career he lived in france and he wrote in french and he said "i'm only going write in the french language because it allows me to be more anonymous." he didn't want, as it were, his personality to become -- to get revealed in his writing. he was commissioned in 1957 by the bbc to write a radio play and therefore he had to write in english. and therefore it's a play that originates in kind of untranslatable into any other language because he chose to call upon a lot of his own experience and background and therefore it's very irish. the dialect of it, the cadence of it, the rhythm of it, the comedy of it, that there a huge amount of comedy in this play is

of a kind that you don't find in so much of the other theater writing. you find in the his short stories and elements of the novel that he wrote but not so much in the drama. >> you've done lots of beckett. >> yeah, i think i have, yeah. i can't remember. i've done quite a bit of beckett beckett, yes. i love beckett. >> rose: (laughs) yes, you have. so where do you place this? where does it fit in the context of what you've done? >> it's just so fun to be in. i feel so free in the even though it's quite tightly -- i can laterally -- i can play as i -- i can't make up lines but i feel at ease in it. i know what i'm doing. i don't fully know but i know enough to get me from here to there. that's all you need, isn't it? >> rose: tell me who ms. rooney is? >> rose: who? >> rose: ms. rooney, your

character. >> oh, she's wonderful. i love beckett anyway and i think i've seen nearly everything and i wish i had been his muse but he had billie whitelaw was his muse but mrs. rooney is just an irish woman, she's not -- it's difficult to put class on people in ireland, it's less obvious than england. she's just a woman who's had a tragic -- a tragedy happen to her but she's not -- oh, she's wonderful. she's what you call the salt of the earth if she hadn't had the tragedy happen to her. she -- it's -- >> it's seemingly a very simple play in the sense that it follows the journey of this woman mrs. rooney, this married woman mrs. rooney to the local railway station where she meets off the train her blind husband in order to help him back home.

therefore, very simply, to the railway station, back home again. that's what happens. but during the course of it you meet a large number of the people of that community. and you come to realize that people are rather wary of mrs. rooney. that they find her rather disturbing and rather dark and clearly something tragic has happened to her. and in the second half of the play we become more and more aware of what that tragic thing is, which is to do with this married couple who lost a child. >> rose: and what the husband said. >> and then yet further the play goes darker. i mean, it begins with so much comedy and by two-thirds of the way through it's becoming more and more bleak and you realize something that you don't want to face up to. and i'm not going to give the game away.

i'm not going to say what is revealed in the play but something very disturbing. >> rose: nor will i. but this is what beckett wrote to a friend when he was imagining the play. you like that? >> yes! yes, that's exactly what we're doing. >> i think he had a lot of fun with the idea of a radio play. and we try to do that in the production that very beginning he requires five or six different rustic sounds so he's like saying come on, it's a radio play, i'm giving you sound effects. and then he says -- and then you hear all of them together so it's like a joke that he's playing on radio producers.

i mean, he's smiling at the idea of of sound effects being integral to the drama and he does it many times through and the climax of his sound effect joking is when you're at the station and he has not one train arriving but two pretty much at the same time so that the sound effects people have a wonderful celebration and they're everything to do with recorded sound. >> rose: he said "i'm absolutely opposed to any form of adaptation with the view to its conversion into theater. "all that fall" depends on the whole thing coming out of the dark." now you've been able to overcome that wish of his that has come out of the dark. >> it's very much the experience for an audience of watching a radio being recorded.

and we think that because we see the actors and because we're aware of aware of the contact between them and relationship between them and so on we learn more about the characters and more about the meaning of the play than we otherwise would if it was only a sound effect. >> rose: characterize the relationship between dan and maddy. >> oh, well, a complicated marriage, isn't it? >> the usual thing. they love each other, hate each other. >> rose: can't live with each other, can't live without each other. >> yes. and they're old. they're both old. they're both in their 70s. >> they've lost a child. >> yes, they've had a tragedy together and they irritate each other and help each other, they make each other love. >> rose: so there's this line that michael says. "did you ever wish to kill a child?" >> the line is actually "did you

ever think to kill a child." >> rose: think to kill a child. >> so he's saying did such a thought ever cross your mind? and this very, very, very shocking statement, it happens immediately after this elderly couple are being mocked and baited by some children who clearly at some earlier point have thrown mud on two of them and therefore to begin with it seems to be just about somebody saying "oh, god, you could so take your revenge on these kids." it turns out to be a line that is much more important and much darker and much more frightening in the play.

i'm not going to tell you any more than that but i will tell you that beckett wrote a short story in which exactly that notion is discussed, exactly that notion of -- >> rose: thinking about killing a child? >> the phrase "did you ever think to kill a child?" and it -- it anears this play because we're dealing with two people who have lost a child. and who feel that they have in some way been judged by the gods that that child has been taken away from them it's -- the greek tragedy writers wrote about the killing of killing nonstop.

it's a very dark moment in the play. >> rose: but at the same time, it has slapstick humor? >> oh, absolutely. >> yeah, not much around that section. (laughter). >> rose: it was somewhere else in the play. >> when he says do you ever think to kill a child, as he's lost one already, it's hard to -- i do it as best i can, i make it as real as i can. >> rose: does he do okay when he does the line? >> these two are absolutely extraordinary. i can't tell you what a fantastic privilege it's been for me because eileen and i have been talking about doing a show together for the last 30 years, michael and i for about the last 32 years and -- >> rose: so finally you got the right thing at the right time at the right place? >> we got the right money. >> rose: and the right money. (laughter) advertise always true. >> it's a great, great privilege. >> it's been wonderful coming

together, i must say, we've had -- we love doing it. michael and i love doing it and the rest of the cast, yeah. >> it's a great group of people. we have so much fun. we laugh a lot and we enjoy ourselves. >> rose: do you think the american audience will be different than the british audience. >> no, i don't think so. >> i always find americans much more open to things. >> rose: that's what people say. >> always open. they come saying "all right, show me, what are you going to do and i'll like it or not like it." the british tend to come with many opinions before they take their seats. >> rose: one is like show me the other's like prove it or something. >> that's it. that's it. absolutely. >> rose: at this stage for you are you looking to work all the time or are you looking to work only if it really gets your -- >> i'd like to work all the time. i'd do anything people ask me now from now on. (laughter) that's all right. >> well, thank you for that. we'll talk just a little bit. >> rose: i can't tell when he's putting us on. >> he's telling the truth. >> i love to go out in my car

and be an actor and if i can't do that i just sit in the drawing room. >> rose: so in other words you're an actor and you want to be acting. >> yeah. yeah. >> rose: that's what makes you happiest. >> it's been my job for 50 odd years. >> rose: it's what makes you happiest? >> well, it gets me out of the house. (laughter) >> well, it's partly true. this is very, very rare that people say i am retired. nobody wants to retire. it's entirely possible to go on doing what we do while our brains are working and why we can stand up than the opportunities are there so why retire? >> i didn't think of a single reason. did you ever meet samuel beckett? >> i did. i went to see the first night of a play -- the one where the three of them are in jars. and i'd had a fantastic evening and i was out with some friends afterwards, we'd had dinner and we were driving along shaftsbury

avenue. i said there's george, i want to tell him what a wonderful evening i've had. i leapt out of the car, hugged george and set "it was just the most wonderful evening, george, i loved it." he said "well, say thank you to the man who wrote it." and i was so high i threw my arms around beckett and kissed him and he went like stone. i was so horribly actressy and over the top for this very -- (laughter). -- quaker like man. not quaker-like, but so ascetic that i felt i'd gone far -- well, i know i'd gone far too far. anyway, i nevertheless thanked him profusely. i think his work is wonderful. i don't -- you know, when people say "oh, do you understand it, i think why does everybody have to think they understand it. you sit and you enjoy something or you don't enjoy it. >> we think we do understand it. i mean, we don't want to be dictatorial about it and we

don't want to be too insistent but we've -- we've investigated it from every possible angle, haven't we? we think we do understand -- >> rose: what was the relationship between pinter and beckett? >> well, the story is that they were very close. that they became very close. pinter was obviously a huge admirer of samuel beckett and learned a great deal from him but the story is that they would spend time together and got on very well. i mean, we would love to be a fly on the wall listening to one of their conversations. it would be spare, it would be full of pauses. on the other hand it would be hilarious from time to time. >> they both liked that. >> rose: did they liking that? >> yeah. >> they both liked women. >> yes. >> rose: so if you like that and women -- >> yeah, you're friends.

until you get the same woman. (laughter) sorry. >> rose: (laughs) >> rose: but wasn't -- didn't harold pointer the last thing he ever did on stage was acting in beckett's -- >> he played the part that -- >> that you played! >> yes, he did it at the royal court. >> he did indeed and was extraordinary. i mean, harold started out as an actor. >> i know, i know. >> he was called david baron and i think he was an accomplished actor and he always had a yearning to get back on stage and did so a number of times. and, indeed, on film. >> and television. >> rose: michael, you've talked about films. you said "i see film role a lovely presents that come along now and again. i feel really lucky and say thank you very much and if they fly know l.a. i thank god i must really be doing well."

(laughs) i've worked with defear roe and brando and ma chino and that's made me feel lucky but the films have never meant a lot to me. >> i'm not much good in them. i feel i'm happier on the stage when i stand there. >> rose: why is that? >> i don't know, i don't know. i get really frightened when the camera's there. >> and the audience makes you better, too? >> yeah, the audience makes you better. >> i'm like michael, i'm much more frightened doing films and the theater. i don't feel totally at home on camera. >> it's because you make a film you're making a mosaic. you just do hundreds of tiny little bits and somebody in the end is going to place all those tiny little bits into a picture. when you're doing a play you're doing something laterally. you're doing the whole thing a bit better and then the whole thing a bit better so you're in control of your interpretation,

you here in control of the structure. and a film you're not. >> it's like a machine that just carries on. it doesn't stop, no one can stop it. no director can stop it. it's running there on the stage. >> rose: you once said that -- talking about being a good actor you said "you have to be a terrific observer which can make you ruthless." do you remember saying that? >> no, i don't remember saying that but i think it's true, i must say. >> how is it view? >> it must be true. >> well, i can remember very clearly sitting with an actor called robert stevens who is married to maggie smith. >> rose: right. oh right. >> and i was talking to robert about something and maggie came to the door to tell us something or tell robert something and she'd opened the door of the room with him and then she slammed the door and she hit her -- did her hand very badly on the door. she absolutely crushed. and robert and i were both sitting in chairs and maggie

went -- and then quite a few seconds went by. >> rose: nothing came stpout. >> nothing? and then robert got up and took her away to a room. and when he came back he said to me "did you notice?" and we both said together "isn't that interesting when you're really badly hurt you don't always make a noise." and we both sat noting that in our heads and neither of us had taken any notice of her hurt. >> that's typical of actors, isn't it? >> rose: that's why the ruthlessness. >> i'm going disagree. you had taken notice of her hurt but you had also taken notice of the silence. >> rose: are you sure about that? or you just took notice? >> well, we -- hmm. i felt we put the actor in us first. (laughter) and the human second.

>> that's not my experience of eileen. >> rose: but she says it. >> she says it. >> rose: but it is that to be great you have to be ruthless in terms of wherever that observation takes you. you have to go there. >> oh, yes, i can't bear people who say "well, i don't quite want to do that." silly "oh --" i can never understand why people mind about, for example, taking their clothes off on stage. you're baring your soul every time you go out there. you're showing people parts of you that most people wouldn't admit to. >> they haven't seen my body! >> (laughs). >> rose: she would rather see your soul than your body. >> i just don't see why people have such a thing about outside things when you're showing something so revealing about

yourself. >> there's that well-known tradition when nudity is required in the rehearsal room that the actors then say to the director "we'll take our clothes off if you take your clothes off." i don't want to do that, thank you very much. i will avoid nudity. >> rose: what is it like to work with the two of them beyond just wonderful. what is it that makes it so satisfying for you as a director? >> i think the two people who are your guests today are both great actors. not good actors, great actors. that's a very rare category and i think you can't be a great actor unless you're also a great person i think if there's something missing in you, if

there's some humanity that is missing then it's going to be missing from your performance. and these two people are very, very extraordinary human beings. and intelligence in their warmth and kindness and generosity. in their toughness. and therefore it's an immense privilege to be in the same room as them. >> rose: so maybe that's why you objected to her saying that her observation was first rather than her concern about pain. that's why you objected because you know she's a great actress and therefore to be great you think she had to be a great human being. >> i was concerned. >> i was concerned as well but i do feel very strict inside sometimes. i can't quite explain that. >> rose: what does that mean, strict, though? >> well, i do feel -- i did feel at that -- i was cross with myself as a person afterwards for thinking eileen, you thought

about your acting before you thought about someone who is hurt. and that made me try to -- anguished with myself that i should be like that. >> there's nothing you could do about it anyway, is there so you might as well as think about it. >> put her hand under a cold tap and that's it. >> rose: do you like the fact that people call you the great gambone. >> no, i love it. >> rose: (laughs) >> people call me the great gambone i'm like, christ. i always deny it, oh, don't be silly. >> rose: but, indeed. >> it makes me laugh. >> rose: was it sir ralph richardson that first said this? >> i think so. >> it was. >> i knew him. i love him. >> rose: you obviously know who that was who said it. you don't think so, you know. >> yeah, i do. i once had to go into his dressing room and i said "i hear you are ill." he said "i'm very ill. i don't know what i'm here to

do." i said -- he said "i'm ill because of this." and he picked up a little vase with a tablet in it. only with a lid. he said it's just because of this. he said i was give than in 1949 from my doctor. i've never taken it. i think it's that. (laughter) i said "why don't you take it?" he said "i can't. i'd be happy if you took it." (laughter) he didn't think i would but i took up this rusty old thing of stuff from the thing and he had a glass of water and i went like that and i took it and he started laughing and he laughed. wildly laughed. >> well, it was obviously a greatness pill. >> rose: you have applied not only for the rights to this but also "waiting for god doe." you've done that how many times?

>> i've never done it. i most passionately wanted to i wanted to do it on the olivier stage. many people don't know what that means. it's a huge, huge spaces with an auditorium and beckett says that the design for the play is just an empty space with one tree and i -- i thought there would be something so absolutely wonderful about the two tramps and the one tree in that vast olivier space. but the rights were not available and i could never strike at the right time. >> rose: as you did here. >> yes, here was very, very good luck. but, no, i never was able to do -- >> rose: was it just far theater? have you directed it elsewhere?

>> i've never been able to. it's never been available. never. so maybe one day. >> rose: wait, never been available -- >> i'm still waiting for godot. (laughter) >> oh, you must do it. >> rose: you have to, don't you? >> well, it's here in new york. >> rose: i know, right now. >> with two very great friends of ours. >> rose: exactly. >> rose: what is it about beckett for you? >> beckett's absolutely unique, isn't he? i mean, a number of times i've read a short story by beckett and it isn't really a short story, it's a prose poem. and in the english language the great tradition is verse drama,

heightened language, the use of language as a very rich ingredient. and beckett does exactly that in his own very special way even though sometimes the plays are very short, even though the expression is is very limited, the selection of language, the rhythm of language, the resonance of the language is absolutely extraordinary and this -- you find the echo of that in harold pinter. the use of silence. the use of stillness. and then just the one phrase

that devastates you. somebody i heard lecturing about beckett said something -- i think it's a thing of genius. somebody in the audience was complaining that beckett can seem to be so pessimistic and this lecturer said i think beckett there is a pessimism that makes optimism look like sentimentality. i thought that was devastating. >> r thank you for coming, a pleasure to have you here. great to see you. that runs november 5 through december 8. that sounds like one month to me. at the 59 east theater. limited run london was in 2012. a rare pleasure. thank you.

>> thank you very much. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. >> hi, guys, i don't want to be an agenda bender but any chance of that -- >> oh, it's not a good time, alan. >> it's fine. we've got time, come on (. >> oh, yeah, we moved that other thing. >> alan partridge. >> jason. >> by the way, it's not alan r. partridge, i know some people do have two names. >> yes, zsa-zsa gabor. >> and duran duran. >> yes, that's good. kris kristofferson. actually, small talk. gentlemen, to business. >> rose: steve coogan is an actor and comedian. fans know him for his comic creation allin partridge who has appeared in bbc comedies over the past 20 years. this season he turns his attention to drama. in a new movie he is a journalist helping woman play be the magnificent judi dench in search of her long lost son. a coogan discovered the story,

produced the film and cowrote the script. here's the trailer for "philomena". >> this is martin sixsmith, used to be the bbc's man in moscow. >> and washington. >> you're depressed. >> well, i got the sack, i'm unemployed. >> that wasn't your fault, was it? >> that's why i'm depressed. >> what are you working on? >> i know this woman, she had a baby when she was a teenager. she's kept it secret for 50 years. >> you're talking about a human interest story. i don't do those. >> why not? >> you think i should do a human interest story? philomena, how are you? >> i had a hip replacement last year, martin. titanium so it won't rust. >> otherwise we'd have to oil you like the tin man. >> is that right? >> no. >> he's just joking, mom. >> oh! (laughs) i was going to ask if it would be possible not to use my real name when you write the story. what about anne bow lynn. that that's a lovely name. oh somebody had that. >> i only want to know if he's all right. >> perhaps these older nones

will help with us the details. >> i don't think that's going to be possible. >> why not? >> you're a journalist. >> i used to be. >> martin is a roman catholic. >> well, i used to be. >> my best guest that anthony was adopted and sent to america. >> i'd like to know if anthony ever thought of me. i've thought of him everyday. >> should we go for a walk? >> or we could watch "big momma's house" about a little black man pretending to be a fat black lady. it looked hilarious, martin! >> she told four people today that they were one in a million. what are the chances of that? >> what if he died in vietnam? or lived on the street? what if he was obese? >> what on earth makes you think he'd be obese? >> because of the size of the portions! >> that's my anthony? >> i met him. >> where? >> at the white house! dear god! what is he like? did you remember anything he said? >> hello. >> hello!

>> it might have been hi. >> oh, martin! >> i do not abandon my child. he was taken from me. >> she's been looking for him. she spent her whole life trying to find him. >> i've never been to mexico but i believe it's lovely. apart from the kidnappings. >> rose: this is incredible. i mean, for you to do all of that. tell me how you came to the story. >> i was in new york playing part number four in yet another studio comedy and i was looking for another project, i was looking for something i could get my teeth into that was beyond the world of comedy which i'd grown comfortable in this the last 20 odd years and i came across this story the guardian newspaper. the title of the piece was "the catholic church sold my child." it was written by martin sixsmith, who i play in the movie. and it moved know tears and i

decided -- i thought i could maybe tell a story about this. what accompanied the piece was the photograph of martin six smith with philomena lee, the woman who was searching for her son. and the photograph was of them laughing. they seemed like an unlikely couple and martin is an, ford educated liberal intellectual and philomena is a blue-collar retired nurse and i just thought -- >> there's chemistry there? >> there's god to be some sort of -- they're from such different walks of life and i thought the idea of talking to them, the more i spoke to them-- because i interviewed them both-- the more i saw there was a story there about not so much about the missing son but about attitudes to life. >> rose: was this after you optioned it or before? >> well, i option it had book before it came out, so i hadn't even read it when i optioned it. >> rose: you were optioning books you had not read?

(laughs) >> yeah. because i saw the story and that enough -- that was enough for me. so i got ahold of it and i read the story and the book, in fact, martin's book is about the missing son but that's not the story i wanted to tell. i wanted to tell the story as we often know in life, the journey, the search is more important than the destination. and so it was with this story. also i was very fond -- a huge fan of a film called "missing" with sissy spacek and jack lemmon. >> they went to argentina. >> it was chile. the chilean coup in '73 and their journey was about -- again, a search for someone who was missing so i knew it could work that you could have this relationship. and i all -- because i'm experienced in comedy i knew i could bring some levity towards a tu story. >> rose: judi dench was hard to get or easy to get. >> she was -- well, i got hold of her -- >> rose: was she easy is?

>> she was a tough cookie. i knocked on her door in the cottage of her t sussex country side and there was "m" looking up at me. >> rose: or dame skwaoud di. >> dame judy. and she came and made me a cup of tea and i sat down and i told her the story and she responded to it. at that point we hadn't finished writing the script but i kind of -- with my cowriter jeff we decided to gear the script to her strengths and to -- you know, i would say when we were writing i said "let's not forget we've got judi dench so let's get our money's worth. let's make sure we get the full judi dench effect." >> rose: (laughs) we want everything this girl can give us. you're amazing to me because you can do so much. you're a producer, you write a screenplay, you're acting. >> i did have a little help from the director stephen frears. >> he knows a little thing or two. but did you have to convince him to do this? >> he responded quickly. he got on the phone, he's quite

a cantankerous guy but he has a heart of gold and he said that he found it very intriguing and interesting. he told me to watch a film called "it happened one night" with clark gable. i was -- a 60-year-old film. it's another kind of -- like an odd couple buddy-buddy road movie which is what this film is in a way. so i sat down and watched that and he points out the limitations of the script. he wanted clarity. the film is about faith as much as about cynicism and intuition versus intellect. he was intrigued by it because it was about -- he's jewish and he said -- and i'm -- i was raised catholic and he said this is your world. >> rose: irish c.a.t. stphreubg. >> i risch catholic but stephen said to me this is your world so

he would defer to me. but because he's outside that in some ways culturally he had a kind of objectivity about it. he could say i don't know what this means or make this clearer. so it was a good partnership. >> rose: why did philomena keep the secret for so long? >> because, odd though it may seem to us in these modern times, she's still was ashamed of the fact that she had an illegitimate child in the 1950s. 1950s ireland was -- >> rose: and didn't take care of him. >> well not that she didn't take care of him but that -- that may have been part of it but the very fact of becoming pregnant and having a child out of wet lock in 1950s ireland was a very shameful thing. a real stigma. she carried that for 50 years. >> rose: this is what philomena said recently. "i'm a great believer that everything happens for a reason. we can't see it but life has been marked out for us from the day we were born until the day we die. there was a reason for

everything that has happened." is this the kind of person you saw and met? destiny is destiny? >> i just saw someone who saw what had happened to her and had a kind of grace and dignity in the face of real -- a wrongdoing that was perpetrated against her. and that to me was -- i asked her questions in the interview and one of the things i asked her was -- because she was deceived, without giving too much away, by the nuns at this particular abbey. and she -- i said do you forgive them for what they did? and she said without hesitation "yes, i do." and at the same time her daughter who is with her, who is looking after her, always accompanied her, her daughter jane, also played in the movie, she said "i don't forgive them." and i thought they were both legitimate responses so i put

those in the film. but philomena had this -- to me -- i wanted to make the story something which was -- although it was a tragedy that happened in her life with her son i wanted people to be somehow -- somehow leave the cinema in an optimistic or hopeful frame of mind and so the way to find that in the story was to be led by philomena. because her grace and fortitude and stoicism in the face of all was quite inspiring. in contrast in some ways to martin sixsmith who -- he gets -- before he came upon this story he was -- worked for the labor government and was fired unceremoniously and was licking his wounds when he came on the story and really -- it's a challenge to the notion of intellectual enlightenment which means you have all the answers

and he learned a thing or two from philomena and that's what i wanted to look at in the film. there was a notion of an education doesn't mean you have -- that your world view is any more valid. >> rose: exactly. absolutely. what was the biggest challenge to make this? i mean, you had a lot of good things in place there. the director had a great costar. you, something about comedy. >> well, i thought that it was -- what i knew would work was the idea of comedy -- the advantage i had going for it was unlike a studio film, studio films are like it's a comedy, it's a drama, horror, thriller, and they're delineated. life involves a little bit of tragedy and comedy and that -- so i thought they were very comfortable bedfellows and they would coexist well together. so that was the part i thought this is a good idea. this is a good thing. and it will be different because there are equal parts pain and

equal parts laughter. >> rose: who is alan partridge, for americans who may not know? >> okay, well, in the u.k. alan partridge is, like -- i'm trying to think of a character over here. like a famous sitcom character who would be comparable with -- over here it's like -- who's -- it's like -- larry david. >> rose: not jerry seinfeld? >> like jerry seinfeld. his character, jerry, in "seinfeld," except i have a different name, it's alan partridge, buttitis the one thing i'm associated with and it dwarfs everything else. so it's kind of those albatrosses that is a result of success. so it's kind of a -- i'm kind of saddled it w in the the u.k. but it's a character that is popular that i love doing. but in some ways because the character has never been successful in the u.s.,s per versely, that's to my advantage because it means i can come out

here with a film like this with judi dench. >> rose: but you've made a movie about this which came out in the summer, didn't it? >> that's right. >> rose: and did well. >> it was number one at the box office in the u.k. >> rose: that's what we call doing well. >> and the clever papers liked it as well so it satisfied the smart people. >> rose: will that come here, too as well? >> they'll release that on the antitrust the new year on the back of filming. >> rose: take a look at this. this is a clip from the film. here it is. >> mr. partridge, this is the gold commander of the operation. >> (laughs) seriously. is that what you're called? >> on this operation, yes. i'm acting chief constant janet whitehead. >> an honor. >> and i'm martin finch. send. from scotland yard's hostage and crisis unit. here to lead the negotiation. >> a bit awkward. who's in charge? >> make no mistake, this lady is in charge. so here's the situation, pat is refusing to speak to us directly. he's willing to give us three hostages but only if he can talk to us through you.

>> we need to know why pat has done this so we can draw things to a peaceful conclusion. >> yeah, sure, i'll talk to him. deal. one person -- oh, come here. >> okay, now are you on any medication? >> just some cream. i've got very aggressive athletes foot but that's the only thing about me that is. >> do you suffer from any nervous conditions such as panic attacks. >> (laughs) do i like look i suffer from panic attacks? i've had one panic attack in a car wash. it was a perfect storm of no sleep, no wife, and angry brushes towards me. by the time the giant hair drier came on i was in the foot well. >> does the idea of weaponry trouble you? >> oh, no, i've fired several rifles. i've won prizes but i've never fired one in anger or at a cat. >> rose: you have said turning into a movie is the hardest thing you've ever done. >> that was.

because i'd spent so much timeoveron my passion project, which was philomena, which was my grown-up movie that my -- i sort of in some ways me tkphrebgted my day job and they bumped into each other and i had to bump off the judi dench movie and jump straight into partridge and roll my sleeves up and -- doing comedy is like spade work. you've got to -- it's kind of -- it's brutal. it's like how many laughs per page. and if there's any subtlety that's a bonus but that's not what you're looking for. >> rose: laughs. >> you want laughs and you want them constant. if you drop the ball, they'll eat you alive. so it's gladiator y'all sometimes. >> rose: so that was laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh. >> pretty much. there's a bit of respite. sometimes you have to back off and let them breathe a little and hit them again. >> rose: is it hard making this -- i would think that it would be -- because comedy requires so many different kinds of skills. it might be harder to make the

transition to film if you're not a comic. in other words, that making a transition from comic to actor is not as difficult as it would be the other way around. >> well, possibly. i think -- i don't think comedy is something you can just do. you have to have an innate sense of timing. >> rose: "innate" meaning you're born with it. >> sure. i think you need to have -- you can -- if you have the talent you can perfect it and hone it, but you have to have that -- i don't think you can teach comic timing. but you need to have something to start with. but doing drama, there is-- there is a slight problem. i said to stephen frears when he directed me "philomena" i said "listen, i'm going to be acting opposite dame judi dench, she's classically trained, theater background, she's got all the -- you know, the resume is like -- >> rose: all the chops you'll

ever need. >> all that and i'm coming left field from a comic background and i said to him, you know, as a director -- and he's asking me about the script and we're talking on one level as writer/director but i'm also actor/director. and i said to him keep an eye on me and if i'm getting too big you have to jump on me. and he would -- his direction was very anybody mall but it was pretty specific. >> rose: how did he express that to you. >> all he would do is if i was -- he would look across the room and if he saw me getting too big he'd say steve? i'd say yeah. he'd look across at me and go -- like that. and that just meant take it down. >> rose: take it downs means what? >> sometimes when you're in comedy, when you do comedy a lot you become too technical. so you know how to press certain buttons. and you're less in the moment. you're less present because you're thinking of it from a technical point of view. and what you have to do is don't overthink it because comics can

overthink things and that's why they're good sometimes. they know that if they pause there and -- that you'll get the laugh and if you just deliver the line quietly you'll get a big laugh and sometimes you have to just forget about that and do what is not -- does not come naturally to a lot of comic performance turned actors but something you have to acquire which is just the ability to listen. and if you're with judi dench, who's acting, really half the job is done for you. all you do is listen to her. listen to her and react the way you would listening to someone like that. >> rose: she will tee it up for you. >> people say is it difficult acting opposite judi dench? i said it would have been harder acting opposite someone who couldn't act. >> rose: (laughs) yes, i know. it makes it a lot easier. is the same qualities that make you a great comedian make you a very good impressionist? >> i think -- no, i think being able to do impressions is something that i figured i could do when i was younger. i've got a pretty good ear.

>> rose: what is it, then? it's ear, isn't it? you can hear the voice and a lot of it is the voice. >> i found at school i could do teachers but in lesson i wasn't studying the teachers, it just goes in and afterwards i go out -- >> rose: you could do the voice. >> and they'd say do mr. so and so and they'd say wow, that's really accurate. it's a facility that's very useful as an actor. >> rose: it is. the facility to be able to hear, listening. >> for example, i do -- i f i do someone like martin sheen has this action which is voice sounds like it's a little too small and he gets angrier his voice gets real squeaky. it sounds like it's compressed inside his mouth. >> rose: 90% of it is his voice. >> as martin sheen) that's right. >> rose: i'm not trying to get you to do a series of impression which is would be a cheap trick for me to do but who was most famous that you did and what did you find about them to unlock

it? >> i suppose -- well, i did michael cane famously in this movie called "the trip." it went viral of this this video of me and rob. and it's knowing that when people do do impersonations you do the voice and the facial expression all help each other. so if you you do michael cane, he has this -- there's a way he speaks through his nose. he's quite still and his voice is getting quite croaky these days because, of course, all the years of brandy and cigars and -- but he does speak through his nose and his eyes are half closed sometimes. and he gets very, very emotional, sometimes, like that. >> rose: (laughs) >> it all comes together. and the sean connery, for example, is -- (as sean connery) when you do the -- the way he -- his voice -- the famous sort of "s" that he does but when you do the expression, his bottom mouth

and his lips protrude like that. it all helps with the producing that sort of rounded glasgow sound. >> rose: this is a clip from "the trip." here it is. >> do your michael cane. >> i say michael cane, used to talk like this in the 1960s but that has changed and i said that over the years michael's voice has come down several octaves. let me finish. all all of the cigars and the brandy don't -- let me finish can now be heard in -- i've not (bleep)ing finished. in the back of the voice. i'm still not finished. >> because you're panicking. you know i'm to start. >> because you look like you're about to bloody talk! let me finish. so michael cane's voice now in the bat man movies and in harry brown, i can't go fast because michael cane talks very, very slowly.

>> well, this is how michael cane speaks, michael caine speaks through his nose like that. he gets very, very specific, it's very like that when he gets loudly it gets very loud, indeed. it gets very specific, it's not quite nasal enough the way you're doing it, all right? you're not doing it the way he speaks! you're not doing it with the kind of -- and you don't do the broken voice when he gets very emotional. when he gets very emotional indeed. she was only 16 years old. she was only 16 -- you're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off. that's michael caine. >> rose: (laughs) you were watching that intently. was that looking at anything? >> i'm just looking at that because it's improvised. i could have done it slightly better and i was picking holes in it. but yeah, it's fun. >> rose: how self-critical are you? >> well, you know, when you watch things back you always -- >> it's always in the lab, isn't it? >> it is but i look at a film like "philomena" and i say 98%

of it is goods but 2% i think i could have done better. >> rose: great to have you here. >> thank you. >> >> rose: pleasure having you on the program. "philomena" is released on friday, november 22 and it goes wide on november 27. steve coogan, the film "philomena." thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

announcer: the following kqed production was produced in high definition. ♪ >> must have soup. >> the pancake is to die for! [ laughter ] >> it was a gut bomb, but i liked it. >> i actually fantasized in private moments about the food i had. >> i didn't like it. >> you didn't like it? oh, okay. >> dining here makes me feel rich. >> and what about dessert? pecan pie? sweet-potato pie?