captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions >> sreenivasan: americans flocked to stores to take advantage of sales as this year's shortened holiday shopping season kicked off in earnest. but some retailers opening their doors on thanksgiving has sparked protests over the treatment of those stocking the shelves and manning the registers. good evening, i'm hari sreenivasan. gwen and judy are off. also ahead on this black friday. a different look at the planet earth. we talk with the scientist in charge of the images from nasa's cassini spacecraft about it's arresting snapshots from saturn. >> and of course they've been beautiful. it's bye-bye my objective since day one to make them as beautiful as possible, because i wanted to give people a sense of going along for the ride.

>> sreenivasan: and it's friday. mark shields and david brooks are here to analyze the week's news. those are just some of the stories we're covering on tonight's "pbs newshour." >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> support also comes from carnegie corporation of new york, a foundation created to do what andrew carnegie called "real and permanent good." celebrating 100 years of philanthropy at carnegie.org. >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and friends of the newshour. >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you.

thank you. >> sreenivasan: a shopping frenzy descended across the country today, as post- thanksgiving shoppers lined up for holiday savings. in some places, the mad dash for deals turned violent, with several shootings and fights breaking out. we'll have more on "black we'll have more on "black friday right after this news summary. investors on wall street kept a close eye on "black friday" shopping. the dow jones industrial average lost nearly 11 points to close at 16,086. the nasdaq rose 15 points to close above 4,059. for the week, the dow gained more than 0.5%. the nasdaq rose 2%. president obama and the first lady visited people who are fasting to protest congressional inaction on immigration legislation. they stopped by the tent on the national mall where the activists have been on a hunger strike for the past 18 days. the president told them he appreciated their efforts. house speaker john boehner has so far refused to schedule votes on an immigration measure the

senate passed this summer. china moved for the first time today to enforce its newly declared air defense zone. it scrambled two of its fighter planes to investigate flights by a dozen american and japanese surveillance planes. the new defense zone includes airspace above a group of uninhabited islands claimed by japan in the east china sea. china has demanded that all aircraft flying into the area notify the chinese they are coming or face military action. thousands of people took to the streets of the ukrainian capital today. they massed in kiev after president viktor yanukovych a landmark trade deal with the european union in favor of closer ties with russia. demonstrators waved ukrainian and e.u. flags while calling for the president's resignation. some also formed a human chain in support of european integration. >> ( translated ): we want to tell the whole world that ukrainians are a european nation, because we proclaim and i think a lot of people support

me, our values, education, medicine, and corresponding ukrainian standards are good for us. >> sreenivasan: e.u. leaders flatly blamed russia for the deal's disintegration. russia had worked to derail it by threatening ukraine with giant gas bills and trade sanctions. protests also raged for a sixth day in thailand. some 1,200 anti-government demonstrators swarmed thai army headquarters in bangkok, appealing for help in overthrowing their prime minister. a separate group also marched on the u.s. embassy. thai prime minister yingluck shinawatra has proposed a dialogue with members of the opposition. but they've rejected the offer. nato officials in afghanistan have launched an investigation into a drone strike that killed a child and wounded two women. they say yesterday's airstrike targeted an insurgent in helmand province. the commander of u.s. and coalition forces in afghanistan called president hamid karzai to apologize for the civilian deaths. but karzai warned if such attacks continue, he will not sign a security deal with the u.s. to allow troops to stay in

the country beyond 2014. a new report from the u.n. high commissioner for refugees found syrian refugee children are often the breadwinners for their families. since the civil war began more than three years ago, at least half the refugees who have fled syria are children-- 1.1 million. many work long hours of manual labor in lebanon and jordan, where they are cheap labor. the 65-page u.n. report called for quick action to get refugee children back into school. >> sreenivasan: still ahead on the "newshour": the bottom line and human toll of the holiday shopping season; giving away e- readers in africa; what earth looks like from the orbit of saturn; the strained relationship between the u.s. and pakistan. plus, shields and brooks on the week's news. black friday sales seem to grow, both in length and volume, every year. this year's events started earlier than ever on thanksgiving day in many places.

still friday's crowds were large with reports of orderly calm in some cities like washington, d.c. near bedlam in others. >> whoo! yeah! >> sreenivasan: lines of eager shoppers stretched around stores nationwide as the hunt for black friday discounts went into overdrive. >> that 40-inch t.v. that's costing me $200 only. >> this is perfect. it has 100 pieces for 10 bucks. you can't beat that. >> $10 waffle iron, dutch oven for 40 bucks. >> sreenivasan: but this year, the traditional kick off to the holiday shopping season was a marathon two-day event for many merchants. more than two dozen national retailers, like best buy and target, opened doors yesterday, on thanksgiving, offering customers a headstart on the binge buying. k-mart was one of the earliest, opening at 6:00 a.m. thursday. >> i'm in! >> sreenivasan: and at macy's flagship store in new york city, more 15,000 people waited in line for its 8:00 p.m. opening

last night-- the first thanksgiving day hours ever in the chain's 155-year history. >> i was here at 8:00 p.m. last night when we opened our doors. we had 15,000 people lined up outside around this building. i've never seen anything like it and i've been at every single one of our openings since my career began. >> sreenivasan: many retailers said it was a response to demand: >> we've had a lot of feedback from our customers and they want us to be open as soon as possible. >> this is about serving our customers at a time they've asked us to serve them. >> sreenivasan: but the early openings met with resistance from workers, labor rights groups and even shoppers themselves, who said the early start times ruined the holiday. >> i think it's horrible. thanksgiving's a day to spend with your family. >> sreenivasan: some franchise owners, like holly cassianio, who owns a sears in new hampshire, refused to open early. >> we're not going to allow corporate retailers to rule over our family values.

>> sreenivasan: in locations across the country, workers protested against the expanded holiday hours. walmart was a particular target. some employees of america's largest civilian employer picketed, calling for higher wages in secaucus, new jersey and elsewhere. and outside an ontario california walmart, a man dressed as santa claus was arrested as part of the protest. meanwhile, retail experts question whether the early openings actually lead to increased black friday spending. sales for the last two months of the year are up, compared to a year ago but still shy of holiday shopping surges seen prior to the recession. the national retail association expects sales to jump 4% to a figure above $602 billion. still, this year's buying extravaganza did not pass without incident, frenzied shopping led to fistfights scuffles broke out inside multiple big box stores from north carolina to texas. >> there was a big brawl and i guess they got kicked out. they didn't get their t.v.s anyway.

>> sreenivasan: and police responding to alleged shoplifting at a chicago area store shot a driver seen dragging a fellow officer with his car. both were taken to a hospital with non-life-threatening injuries. now, the first of two perspectives on the black friday phenomenon for a look at the business side of events. laura champine is senior consumer and retail analyst at canaccord genuity, a banking and financial services company. i spoke with her earlier today. laura champine, thanks for joining us. so six fewer holiday shopping days this year. how significant is that for retailers? >> it's a really big deal especially because it spooks them. six fewer days means everyone day counts so they'll be watching the sales every single day and adjusting their promotions based on how they're doing earlier than last year. >> sreenivasan: is this the reason that stores like wal-mart, k-mart, target chose to stay open yesterday? is it worth it to a retailer? >> i think that's part of the reason. in retail, a consumer has a budget of a certain size, and

you want to compete to get that sooner rather than later. we think it's a little bit of a dubious victory for these retailers because they still have more costs from staying open the extra hours but the idea is to beat their competitor. >> sreenivasan: what about the social cost, people get a little upset that workers have to come in on a day that was almost guaranteed they could stay home with their families. >> right. it is really the big retailers that are causing this. t.j. maxx will not openna thanksgiving because they don't think it's good culturally. these retailers that live and die pie single-item discounts, they can't make that choice. they'll lose traffic. >> sreenivasan: area prices truly discounted this time of year? it seems retailers have been edging prices up for months so it looks like a discount. >> they are real discounts.

they are planned. retailers know they'll have those low prices but they have designed specific items often to sell at those prices. so you're getting good deals now. the deals may get better closer to christmas. >> sreenivasan: can both the consumer and retailers end up with a good deal what about the enroachment of the online marketplace. i think t it's up almost 15%. is this fairly stable? is that trend growing? >> it's growing and it's growing double digitses. the growth rates aren't four 40%, 50%. most brick and mortar retailers have to have an online presence. they're not really losing sales online with some exception. obviously, electronics, books, music, have gone to amazon.

>> sreenivasan: laura champine, thanks so much. >> you bet, thank you. are >> sreenivasan: and for more on the social impacts of holiday openings, especially on store employees, we turn to steven greenhouse, who has been reporting on all this for the "new york times." steven greenhouse, welcome. so we've talked a bit on the program with how stores chose to stay open yesterday. how does that impact the people behind the counter? >> i think two things are happening here, hari. one, as you know, the retailers are opening up more than ever before on thanksgiving, and there's some push-back from the workers, from the unions, from some, you know, groups like credo, you know, advocacy groups that say there's something wrong with the commercialization of this almost sacrosanct american holiday. and secondly, and overlapping, there's this effort we're seeing at wal-mart and some other retailers and we're seeing a lot of fast food restaurants as well, a lot of the low wage workers who make $7.25, $7.50,

$8 an hour, are saying we are not making enough money to live on, to support ourselves, to support our families, and we need a raise. that's why today ther there aree big protests at wal-marts across the country,. >> sreenivasan: between the pizza hut employee who gained a lot of traction elderly this week by pubbing back against his franchisee saying let's stay closed on thanksgiving. is there a larger push happening here? >> in ways the biggest push we've seen in years, maybe even decades, by low-wage workers protest, we really need to raise wages, we're seeing these protests against wal-mart and mcdonald's, and burger king, and taco bell, and pizza hut. from one perspective, hari, they

ar.i think there's a general systemic protest where these workers are saying generally, there's a whole stratum of work irworkers in the united states make $12,000, $14,000 a year, and something has to be done to help us. yes, they get food stamps. a lot of the food stamps have been cut back recently. and there's this incipient push to raise the minimum wage. we have seen prince gorge's county in maryland vote to raise the minimum wage to $7.50 an hour. there's a push among the loi-wage workers, partly democrats, saying the minimum

wage is too low, $7.50, $8 an hour is too low and we have to do something about it. >> sreenivasan: what's the likelihood of something hang on the federal level? >> the wage is $7.25 an hour. in his state of the union address last january, president obama endorsed a $9 minimum wage but congressional democrats are saying that's not enough, and senator tom harkin of iowa, a democrat, and congressman george miller of california, are cosponsoring a bill that would raise the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour in two years. the white house signalsarilier this month they would back a wage of $10.10 an hour. i think it plays very well in the party's liberal ring. the question is what will happen in the house of representatives?

john boehner said he didn't think raising the minimum wage is a good idea. he said it will result in fewer jobs. i have a story in the "new york times" today that says the american public supports a higher minimum wage by 69% to 25%, when which is a pretty overwhelming majority, and the republicans support a higher wage. sphwhrar steven greenhouse, thanks so much. >> nice to be here. >> sreenivasan: in recent years, tablets and e-readers have topped many holiday shopping lists. jeffrey brown looks at one program aimed at using that technology to get people to read. >> brown: more than 770 million people around the world where illit ra, according to unesko, world reader wants to decrease those numbers and

eradicate illiteracy for the next generation. >> i will go on friday after work and come back on sunday. >> brown: the group distributes e-readers to individuals, classrooms and libraries throughout subsaharan africa where 50% of schools have few or no books. the three years old the program reaches over 13,000 children in nine different countries, including kinnia, rwanda, zimbabwe and ghana where this student wants to be a lawyer when she grows up. >> brown: once the e-readers are distributed, the organization curateaise wireless library of local and international books. joining me now is david risher, the cofounder and president of world reader. he's a former executive with

microsoft and amazon, and welcome to you. >> thank you, jeff, it's great to be here. >> brown: i've seen you describe your "a-ha" moment that led to this. >> we were traveling around the world and had spent some time in an overnaj in equador. at the end of the way-- it was a girls' orphanage and i asked the woman why there was a building with a big padlock. and the woman said, "that's our library." i said, "what's going on?" she said the books take forever to get here. by the time they get here they're often not books our kids want to read anymore and the girls have sort of finished with what's in there. i said can i take a looked in? and she said, "you know, david, i think i've lost the key." and it really was at that moment i thought to myself. hold on, i can step back and think okay i'm going to sort of watch the world not have the books they need to improve their lives or step into it and and stop the problem. >> brown: you were coming from

this world yourself, technology and ebooks. how does it work on the ground? >> we get ereaders and we use cell phones as well but let's focus on e-readers for a second from companies like amazon. we load them up with international and local books. one of the things we realized early on, it is important to bring books to the kids that will inspire them and they can relate to. >> brown: and that means books from africa. >> one of the first times i went to ghana, the went to the back of the classroom and saw one of the paper books they had. it was, "the history of utah." >> brown: but that just shows the haphazard nature of what reaches them, right? >> that's exactly it. it's almost land fill that gets redistributed into africa. we said, hold on. the world is favoring the electronic distribution of books. the kids will read more, read

better, and improve their lives. >> brown: this is your basic ereader? >> that's exactly it. we scied decided to use off-the-shelf material. one of the earliest things our kid asked us is can we have a light so we can read after dark. it was that observation that made us really this really can work and it really can change the world. >> brown: one obvious issue is cost. it requires-- i mean, to make this work, i assume you have to do it as lowest cost possible. >> you do, you do but that's the nice thing about ticknology. these which cost $400 a couple of years ago now cost $50. the other cost is the books themselves. but we're luck thre and we with international publishers. we have gone to random house and said look can you contribute the use of the "magic tree house "series to our program for free? and they said yes we did the same thing with "the hardy

boys." and we go to african publishers sa& say we will pay you for every book we use in the program. it's a revenue stream and a way to get kid reading more which, of course, is their goal, too. >> brown: what kind of barriers, if any, have you hit along the way? >> it's interesting the biggest barrier-- which this will sound funny-- the demand is so great we have to struggle to keep up with it. we started with 50 kid nay classroom and we now have 12,000 reading e-readers. we expand our program to include cell phones, a qies so many people in the developing world have had. we have another 150,000 kids reading on cell phones every month as well. and this is our biggest challenge is how do we keep up with that demand and how do we keep the funding going to keep the program moving forward. >> brown: and scaling up must be the big issue for you. >> our goal and we know it's

ambitious and crazy is to eradicate illiteracy. >> brown: you laugh as you say that, because it's so big? such a big goal? >> that's it. but at the same time, it's a goal not necessarily in our lifetime but in our children's lifetime we can achieve. you look back 100 years ago at what the carnegies and rock fellers did, putting in the infrastructure for books for education. now we can do the same thing digitally. it will take some time but we'll get it done. >> brown: coming from the tech world, you're seeing the potential for technology as-- well, this is real big social change. >> right, that's right. and i think that this social change-- change happens in waves. and this technology, it's actually not the technology that's the most important part. it's the whole scale move towards digital, the whole scale move towards cell phone coverage, the wholesale of. >> brown: that's big. go back to the ground level or

school level. you told me about the a-ha moment for you with the idea. when was the ah-hah moment when you saw this could work? >> i would say first it was watching the kid in our first classroom in ghana who were reading "curious gorge" and they were reading it word by word and in the end they looked up and said, "can we have another book." we downloaded another book, another ereader right then. you have to remember these are kid who live in a world where there are no books. where it could take six months or a year to get a hand on a single book and now they're walking around with a library that can hold an infinite number of books. that moment changed world for me. fast forward and maybe a year, and i'm talking to one of the girls in our program in ghana who says because i read "the shark "i nowd of now want to be the most famous writer in the world. right? or mary in tanzania, who is 10 years old, and she says, "i want to be a pilot when i grow up so

i can fly to bangladesh, the united states, and send money back to my mother so she can learn how to speak english." it's nose sort of moments that really make you think this can work. >> brown: okay david risher of world reader, thanks so much. >> thank you, jeff, it's great to be here. >> sreenivasan: we look now at some out of this world images. for ten years, the cassini spacecraft has captured arresting snapshots from saturn and this month took a picture of earth from the backside of the ringed planet. judy recently talked to carolyn porco, the leader of the cassini imaging team at the space science institute in boulder, colorado. >> woodruff: carolyn porco, welcome. first of all, refresh us on what the cassini mission launched back in 1997 was supposed to accomplish? what was it all about? >> the cassini mission was all about a comprehensive

investigation of saturn and everything? the saturn system, and it's been a mission that's been done jointly with the europeans. as you said, we launched in 1997. it took us seven years to cross the solar system and get into orbit around saturn, the summer of 2004. and we are now in our tenth year of investigating this very complex, very phenomenon logically rich plantare system. >> woodruff: why was saturn so interesting and why was the imaging piece so important? >> saturn, first of all, it's the jewel of the solar system. it's a beautiful planet. it is-- as i said, the most phenom logically rich. it's got the solar system's largest set of rings, planetary rings. saturn itself is a giant planet, and there's much to be gained by investigating its meteorology and studying its magnetic field. and then it has a collection of

moons. right now i think we're in the low 60s for moons, and cassini was going to investigate the system of moons that were close in to the planet and they also are like a miniature solar system. so there was a great deal to be learned in going to a system like saturns about-- it had enormous cosmic reach, the scientific objectives could tell us something about the early earth, about the evolution of the planets. so it just was going to be a mission, just an enormously fruitful, productive, scientific mission and she that's exactly what's happened. >> woodruff: some of these stunning images that we've been able to see, how did you decide what you were going to take a picture of and what's the important of those? >> first, we are guided by what scientifically we need to learn about the objects in the saturn system. the images have the benefit of being two dimensional. you can immediately relate to

them, and so you get by a lot of interpretation that you might have to do with other data. and of course they've been beautiful. it's been my objective since aty one to make them as beautiful as possible, at least the ones we release to the public because i wanted to give people a sense of going along for the ride. this is an enormous expedition. it's a scientific expedition around saturn, and i wanted to give people a feel for what it's like to be there. and i think, judging from the response, the public has had to our images, i think we succeed at that. >> woodruff: the most remarkable image to me is of course the one where you see saturn in the corner and you see the rings and you see in the distance this tiny blue dot, which is earth. tell us about that image and she the meaning of it. >> well, that image has a long

and beautiful history, and it goes back all the way to the voyager mission when carl seguin and i and others planned and executed an image taken from beyond the orbit of neptune, looking back at the earth, and it's become known since then as the pale blue dot image, and that image, even though it's not much to look at, in the hands of carl sagan became a kind of romantic allegory of the human condition, showing the earth alone in the vastness of space and small and tranquil and with the immediate recognition that everybody we've ever known, everyone who has ever been alive in the history of our planet, lived on that dot. ever since i began my tenure as the leader on the imaging team for the cassini mission, i've wanted to do that picture over

again, only make it better. the idea of the voyager pale blue dot was to take a picture of the earth awash in a sea of starses. if you look at the pale blue dot, there is no stars. our new cassini pale blue dot image does have stardz in it and it shows the earth against the beauty of saturn's rings. my idea was when thinking of doing this image over again, wouldn't it be great if we could get the people of the world ton ahead of time that their picture was going to be taken from a billion miles away, and let them know at this moment go out, look pupup, contemplate your existen, contemplate the beauty and lushness of our own plapet, marvel at your own existence, and appreciate the magnitude of the accomplishiment that has made this interplanetary photo session possible and that's

exactly what it's done. >> woodruff: finally, questions, new questions raised by what you see from these images? what are they? >> well, this particular image nayou're seeing and the mosaic that that particular image comes from was expressly taken just to make a beautiful image. but it went along with a collection of other images that are used for scientific purposes. in this case it's to understand the structure in saturn's rippings and to investigate that beautiful blue ring that you see which comes from probable our most profound discovery with cassini, and that is 100 geysers erupting from the south pole of the small moon which very likely come directly from the most accessible habitable zone in our solar system. there could be biological processes stirring in the saturn system. and that's-- that has made it

all worthwhile. >> woodruff: carolyn porco, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> sreenivasan: you can see more of judy's conversation with carolyn porco on our website. in that online extra she talks about the importance of space exploration in this era of budget tightening. >> sreenivasan: now to one of the united states' most complicated partnerships on the world stage-- its rocky alliance with pakistan. chief foreign affairs correspondent margaret warner sat down with hussain haqqani, pakistan's former ambassador to washington, to discuss that relationship. >> the pakistani people and the american people have suffered terribly from terrorism in the past. >> warner: it's a critical relationship for the united states these days, key to washington's fight against terrorism and its plans to leave afghanistan next year. but relations with pakistan have been rocky ever since that

country's birth in 1947. they united against the soviet union in afghanistan in the 1980s, but fell out over pakistan's secret development of a nuclear weapon in the 90s. since 9/11, while nominally cooperating against terrorists, they've been at odds over taliban and al qaeda-linked fighters sheltering in pakistani territory, and over u.s. drone strikes against those militants. the low point? the 2011 u.s. raid that killed osama bin laden hiding out in a city near pakistan's capital. hussain haqqani, pakistan's ambassador to the u.s. from 2008-2011, examines the roots of this fractious partnership in a new book "magnificent delusions pakistan, the united states, and an epic history of misunderstanding." hussain haqqani, thank you for joining us. >> a pleasure being here, margaret. >> warner: let's go a little into the history because your

book is really a history book and you begin with, "a doubtful friend is worse than a certain enemy. let a man be one thing or the other and then we know how to meet him. of so who is the doubtful friend here? >> the united states is the doubtful friend for pakistan, and pakistan is the doubtful friend for the united states. >> warner: and are the doubts well rooted? >> i think the doubts are very well rooted. the reason is pakistan's expect fraigz the relationship with the united states are very different from what the united states wanted. what has gone wrong over the years is the americans have assumed that they can buy over pakistan's leaders with promises or delivery of aid. pakistan's leaders have always lived under the delusion that at one point or another the americans will come around to pakistan's way of thinking, and that simply hasn't happened in 66 years. >> warner: the title talks about this relationship being the product of delusions and misunderstandings. but the narrative seems to paint

a picture of deliberate deception, on pakistan's part, at least. >> i think delusions lead to deception. and sometimes you deceive yourself. you also have in the narrative many occasions where there are senior american officials recognizing a problem and yet deciding not to face the problem. >> warner: you say at the root of this is that pakistan and the u.s. don't share essentially the same goals or interests. can't there be alliances anyway that countries that may not share the same interests but still find one another useful and have each other's back when the going gets tough? >> i think that a shared interest or a common enemy is absolutely essential for an alliance. now, you can be useful to each other. you tonight have to have 100% symmetry in your interest. but the usual range of asymmetry and interest is 30-70.

for example, britain has 30% interest that are not those of the americans. in the case of pakistan and the united states, pakistan's primary interest which is defined by the elite-- which i question-- is to become india's military equal and rest control of kashmir. those two interests are not america's interests and yet america has built up pakistan's military potential over the years and continues to arm pakistan, assuming pakistan will eventually use the arms for agendas the americans set for them. that is not going to happen. that has not happened in the last 66 years. >> warner: you also say that you think americans and pakistanis have certain stereotypes of each other. what are those stereotypes? >> the american stereotype of pakistani is well-spoken individuals who have an education, coming from the

british background, always eager and rad to do what they're told. or repeatedly learning that that is not the case, but always assuming that. in recent years the stereotype has changed to the deceptive pakistani, or the terrorist-harboring pakistani. the pakistani stereotype of americans is the arrogant american, the ignorant american, and the american who has no understanding of other people's culture or history. >> warner: do you think this dysfunction that you describe is also rootedly in the national characters of each people, each country? >> americans have a tendency to not take other people's history very seriously. in america, when you say, "that's history, "it actually means that's irrelevant. pakistan, on the other hand, has spent a lot of time and energy trying to create a narrative of history that justifies the existence pause the existence is often questioned by other nations. >> warner: do you think

pakistanis are suspicious of the rest of the world? >> i think pakistanis are pakise suspicious of the rest of the world. i have complained that my compatriots have become xenophobic, conspiracy theories are rampant in pakistan. that comes from a sense of insecurity. >> warner: president obama now with secretary kerr ato be trying to revive this relationship under the new president. what advice would give to them? >> i think president obama and secretary kerry should continue their efforts to of and try and endpaij with stack ban put that should be based on reality and not illusions. i would suggest that they should not focus buehrle on reviving the military-to-military, and intelligence-to-intelligence relationship but actually take an interest in understand, what the discourse or debate is within pakistan about pakistan's own interests. >> warner: do you thinkub they should lock on pakistan as an

ally or something else? >> i think neither pakistan nor the united states should look upon upon each other as allies. that would be the first step trtd awe reality-based relationship. both should understand we do not have a shared enemy and we do not have a shared interest. pakistan need to educate their children who don't go to school. pakistan need to get away from a religion-based nationalism to a nationalism of the shared interests of the population. the united states can't see the world divided between allyand enemies. there are many countries that are neither, and pakistan is one of them. >> warner: hussain haqqani, author of "machtion delusions, "thank you. >> a pleasure to be here. >> sreenivasan: and to the analysis of shields and brooks. that's syndicated columnist mark shields and new york times columnist david brooks. >> sreenivasan: while you were out last weekend there was some

deal. the iran happened. y didn't have a chance to weigh in. is this a good deal? >> it's a better deal than where we were in the sense it's six months, and i think it's confidence building on both sides, in a place where there was little to no confidence on either side. and i think the inspections are positive. and the alternate is unspeakable. >> i've got ambivalence of mountain-size proportion of this thing. i think on balance it's probably worth an attempt. i think they were headed towards nuclear weapons. nonetheless, this is a shot. but it depend how tough we are with following up. do we actually-- and the administration has begun to do this, in part through a column david ignatius wrote, what they consider criteria for a good final deal. and if they stick to that criteria, rather than folding, you really could get there.

the iranians are counting on us, the entire world, that the sanctions regimes will begin to dissolve. somehow if the western alliance can hold the sanctions together this is a risk worth taking. both are big ifs. >> sreenivasan: do you think the alliance can hold it together? >> i think they can. the president is, obviously, all in on this and i think one of the problems he disw face is congress is going to try to push harder for sanctions. he's got to stop those in the short term and at least get his six months and they've been doing ad any job so far, trying to tamp down, understandable, criticism and opposition. but i just think that we-- there's been an over reaction on the opposition side. the idea of comparing this to munich 1938 is beyond overblown.

rand in 2013, and whatever it is, it's not a pleasant place, but it's not nazi germany. i think it's worth it and i'm hoping. >> to be fair, the saudis are really upset, the gulf state are really upset, the people most vulnerable to an iranian nuclear weapon are unset. it seems unlikely a regime that went so far to get a nuclear weapon will pull back and give it up. >> sreenivasan: what is congress decide decides to add w sanctions? >> i think this is a test of the president's political leadership in the country as well as with the congress. it, obviously, is tougher now that his numbers are down. i think only the president can lay out the stakes and that is thia six-month period. it comes down it what the alternative is. if we think in isolation they weren't developing developing, if the people who were convinced

of that, and i can understand the skepticism. i don't understand their opposition to an attempt now to freeze it and with total inspection every day. >> sanctions are working, and if sanctions are working maybe more sanctions are good. i think the confluence of the deal, the offer from the obama administration-- which is the carrot-- and if they want to be tough while obama is being open, that shifts gears. >> sreenivasan: the pope came out with his first apostolic exeritation, his first major work inspect in ther. he takes jabs aticalitallism, calling it a new tyranny. he's laying it out and pope watchers, experts are saying this is the agenda for how to reform the christian church. >> i'm a fan of capitalism but i have a lot of sympathy for it.

it is the job of the catholic church to be a balance to the materialistic drives in our culture and economy. i guess i wish he would emphasize two things. first, capitalism over the last 25 years has been a moral good. has reduced poverty, and that's been a phenomenal good. the second thing i would say is sometimes i think the analysis and some of the language used this time was too gnarly economic. one of the things capitalism does is it does enhance and exacerbate pride, making yourself the center of your universe instead of god's will. that can happen in faculty clubs, in n.g.o.s. that was a spiritual things. and to sal-- it seems the righty to focus on an economic theory seems out of the pope's lane.

>> i think it's very much in the pope's lane. survival of the fittest has never been a jucadeo christian culture. i think the pope confronted us with a fundamental question, "what are we first? are we a free market system, that woe have confidence untrammelled and untetterred, if will provide good for more people or are we a exwiewnt of equal people, and an enterprise system under regulation and require regulation. that's the difference he makes more than any to me in the economic sphere, not private charity and generosity-- which have always been important-- but we have a collective responsibility to make sure all of us, through our collective instrument of government have education, have health care, have shelter, have food. that's not just a matter of

individual kindness or compassion. and to me, that was it. david's right. it's not a deviation from john paul ii or benedict or past popes but the emphasis he brings to it, the passion he brings to it, as well as the sense of engaging the world. it's an optimistic, upbeat, and passionate pope we are seeing right now who drives a ford focus. he doesn't drive around in an armored limo. that's difference joirk capitalism tells you to be ambitious, be self-interested, all of us that is not enough and there should be counter-cultures telling you that is not enough. religion was a counter-culture-- but there was a lot of counter-curlts that said being self-interested and in your own achievement is not a happy life. i'm afraid sometimes when the pope does it the way he did this time, he is introducing a political divide where there doesn't need to be one, where he

makes it into an argument about economic philosophy where it could be the core message of catholicism that self-interest should not be the center of your life. >> sreenivasan: does it punctuate inequality? >> that to me is the fundamental premise of what the pope said. notticism let's economic inequality which dave has talked about in the past and income inequality, and wealth inequality, but that lead to an inequality of opportunity. we've seen it in this country with a widening divide where people who are born poor, whether they're white or black in the south, in the midwest, they have a better chance-- a worse chance, actually, of growing up to be poor adults whether height whiteor black, and this has been a problem, income inequality, and economic inequality quite frankly have a social cost. >> hire i literally am being more catholic than the pope.

so what catholicism, what christianityy tells us-- and judaism as well-- tail us we're all equal sowldz how we are all fundamentally equal souls and if you make a zillion dollars you're not better than anybody else spiritually. you're still an equal soul. in fact it will probably be a little tougher for you because of the sins that go along with that. i would like to see the pope emphasize equality of souls and the fact that your success is problematic to your salvation instead of a much more narrow political-- we talk about inequality all the time. i want the pope to be the pope. >> the pope did say, i love the rich as well as i love the poor. but the responsibility we have-- i mean, the rich are getting by pretty damn well. and as we've cut taxes, the inequality has grown wider, so, you know, i think the pope deserves a listen-to.

>> a listen-to. >> very controversial. >> i do. >> sreenivasan: so there was, in domestic political news, we almost started to look at campaign finance reform through the treasury. we are looking at social welfare organizations very active in the entire political process now, 501-c4s. what are the structural changes? >> it's like the david koch organizations and tea party organizations, and their giving has been ramping up-- if you took toacts giving it was in the single millions a few elections ago and now it's something like 300 million. remember the tea party thought they were being targeted and it has become fuzzy regulation. the administration position is we just want to tighten up the regulations and know make it

harder for these supposedly non% groups to safe. the group itself says we're mostly republican leading you're clamping down on us and not unions. and it's not fair. >> from 1976-2008, we had elections. as somebody who spent his early year in politics before i turned to journalism, by default, i can tell you, they were clean. ronald reagan three times ran for president. he send the limits on contribution, the limits on what you could spend and he ran on public financing when he won 49 states one time, and 44 the next. george h.w. bush twice, bill clinton twice. it changed in 2008. president obama was the first president not to abide by the limits in the general election and then along comes the citizen united decision which took off all limits on spending. we had in of in the last

election 470 million contribute bide 100 individuals. and we don't know through these 501-consider-4, which list themselves as social welfare organizations, charitable organizations, we don't know who is contributing. they can hide behind that. we have gone from limited exposure to none. i wish anybody on the supreme court who voted that way had ever run for sheriff because they would know, people who give money in large amount in politics are basically not altruistic. they have some issue. they have some interest. and, you know, it maybe world peace. it marry preserving carried interest. but it's not altruistic, and that has changed our democracy. >> i would say maybe this is one of the issues where moderation is not answer and the middle way is the worst possible way.

i think there are two basic approaches, one is complete openness, everybody knows everything with no limits. but the other is have a national public system. we have a i had wrid, which is the worst of both world. to the extent it's going to crack down some of these charitable griewrngz they're very polarizing and tend to drive candidates to extremes. it's probably a good thing. it's tough to do it from treasury-- it looks a little political. >> david's point about their giving, and the limitations as to what people can give. the reality is this, hari, that when there are no limits, candidates then just seek a wealthy individual. i mean, that's all you you are pleasing. and that-- there was a time when political support was reflected in financial support. if you won new hampshire or you did well in the iowa caucuses. now all you have to do is court

two or three major benefactors and they will keep you alive, even on a single issue they care about. >> last pressing question ba minute left what, are you thankful for? >> i'm thankful-- and peggy noonan of the "wall street journal" reminded me today, that certain employers like nordstrom, and coskico, and others let their employees have thanksgiving and didn't open their stores on thursday. >> i'm thankful we live in a commercial culture so i have things to do. i made more personal friend this year since i have been in hool. >> sreenivasan: including mark shields. you can hear mark shields and david brooks weigh in on college football's biggest day. that will be posted online. >> sreenivasan: again, the major developments of the day:

a shopping frenzy descended across the country, as post- thanksgiving shoppers lined up for holiday savings. in some places, the mad dash for deals turned violent, with several shootings and fights breaking out. and china moved for the first time to enforce its newly declared air defense zone, scrambling two of its fighter jets to investigate flights by a dozen american and japanese surveillance planes. online at the "newshour" right now: nasa offers an alternative to black friday-- black hole friday. if you want a respite from the shopping madness, you can find facts about and images of black holes on our rundown. also, sunday is world aids day. we bring you a story from tanzania about a dance used to

fight the transmission of h.i.v., plus find links to other recent, in-depth reports on the virus. all that and more is on our website newshour.pbs.org. and a reminder about some upcoming programs from some more of our pbs colleagues. gwen ifill is preparing for "washington week," which airs later this evening. here's a preview: >> ifill: i know we always have more questions than answers, and we bet you do, too. so our panelists will tackle the queries you sent us by video and by facebook on health care, the economy, and more. tonight on "washington week." hari. >> sreenivasan: the news doesn't take a break on the weekend and neither do we. i'll be back in new york for the "pbs newshour weekend" on saturday and sunday. check your local listings for the time. and we'll be back, right here, on monday. we sit down with the state department's wendy sherman, the u.s.' lead negotiator for upcoming international talks on iran and syria. that's the "newshour" for tonight. i'm hari sreenivasan. have a nice weekend. thank you and good night. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by:

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what can we do for you? >> and now, "bbc world news america." >> this is "bbc world news america." serious civil war through the thanof children with more a million now registered as refugees. france considers hefty fines for people caught paying for the services of those in the so- called oldest profession in the tell it like beckham. time film is all about his in manchester. what does he make of it?