>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with david miliband. he is a man who runs the international rescue committee, talking about the crisis in syria and elsewhere. >> syria is the defining humanitarian crisis so far this century and in truth we, the international community are failing the test that has been set for us by literally millions of syrians displaced from their homes. >> rose: we conclude with ray kelly in a conversation about his tenure for the last 12 years at commissioner of the new york police department. >> we have a lot more information than we have had in the past. we have a lot of dedicated people, no question about it, we are working chosely with the federal government. we get most of our information coming through the federal resources. >> rose: and no question information has gotten significantly better since 9/11. >> yes, absolutely and everyone is working to the and more

cooperatively than in the past, not always perfect but much better so i think so i think a series of things but you can't declare victory, something could happen today or tomorrow, that wasn't an instant on our radar screen. we have, drove into times square 2010 and found a parking spot in time square with a bomb in his car. nobody knew anything about him, quite frankly. so those types of things are possible. it is just the world in which wally. >> rose: david miliband and ray kelly next. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following. >> and american express. >> rose: additional funding provided by these funders. >> and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news

and information services worldwide. >> from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: david miliband is here. he was britain's foreign secretary from 2007 to 2010. he then ran for la labor party leadership later that year but defeated by ed miliband, april designed from part. to be chief executive of the international rescue committee here in new york, i am pleased to have him back at this table. >> it is great to be back, charlie. >> rose: several things. one tell me what the international rescue committee is. what does it do. >> it was founded by albert einstein in 1933 for people fleeing the nazis and now works in about 40 countries helping the victims of civil conflict and natural disasters, and it helps resettle new americans, 9,000 people a year come from around the world and we resettlement them out of the

u.s. total amount 70,000. >> rose: resettle means what. >> in the u.s. we help teach them english, get them housing and on the road to american citizens and as the domestic organization but unless all the most difficult and dangerous places. we are doing emergency relief within 72 hours of a disaster and we stay there somewhere like afghanistan, we have been there for 30 years trying to do the education, the health, the protection of women and kids, that is so important in any society. >> rose: is there any overlap with what the international red cross does. >> the international committee on the red cross is in a similar business, we are an ngo, they are slightly different, they have more formal international stature but there is a range of international development and humanitarian organizations we are working very much on the victims of civil conflict, the victims of disaster and the communities they end up in. because this humanitarian space created by einstein but now is not about wars between states, it is about civil wars, and it is about the host communities

not just the refugees, because the defining image of a refugee is really in a refugee camp behind wire. 70 percent of today's refugees are not in refugee camps, they are in urban areas and renting and squatting they are begging off neighbors. and so we have got a mandate to go to the toughest places, to give emergency but also long-term help and also to innovate, because we know that we have got to do things in different ways to get sustainable and do you believe solutions, durable solutions in places as diverse as afghanistan, somalia, syria, which we will talk about tonight. >> rose: syria is exhibit a? >> syria is the defining humanitarian crisis so far this century, and in truth we, the international community are failing the test that has been set for us by literally millions of syrians displaced from their homes and displaced into neighboring -- >> rose: define the issue for us. >> the issue is we have a war in which neither side is respecting the rules of war, so civilians

are being targeted inside syria, merely nearly one in two, a population of 22 million people, nine, 10 million displaced from their homes by bombing, by fighting and now nearly 3 million in neighboring countries, so people often say the syrian civil war, it is bigger than that. it is a war that is now consuming the region, syria and the four neighboring countries, turkey, iraq, lebanon, jordan and so this is now a regional conflict and a sectarian conflict, a regional power conflict as well, and it is bigger than just the syrian conflict. >> rose: let's talk about where the refugees are and what they are doing and how they survive but the syrian government you have the turns and saudi arabia supporting some element of the islamists and the more moderate elements of the campaign against the government. how does this end? >> the historic country of syria is devolving in front of our eyes, it is hardly -- there is, there is hardly going to be a

syria left for the winner to inhabit the truth is there is no political compromise because neither side feels it can yield ground or compromise. neither the assad government nor the various factions of the rebels, and the people caught in the middle are the millions of syrians who whether they were sunni or think item were living side by side .. in a country that for a long time has been relatively stable albeit it a dictatorship and now what you see as you suggest is regional powers. >> rose: right. >> not just local people but regional powers seeing this as a fight that they can't dug. >> rose: are you hopeful about what might happen in geneva on january 22nd? >> i would be lying if i said i was hopeful, not in the least because the french minister was actually at the table trying to make these negotiations go, said the day before yesterday that he had severe doubts about this peace conference. >> rose: what is happening. >> he talked about success, happening on the 22nd of january, my point is we fought hard to get the humanitarian

issues, the polio, the hunger, the lack of shelter on to the agenda for the peace conference on the 22nd of january, it was resisted. >> rose: well, the division. >> the politician division about the ultimate solution in syria has been mirrored on the humanitarian side. we cannot even get a resolution through the u.n. security council insisting each side obey international humanitarian law, that is the scale of the division that exists in the international community. >> rose: russia and china is using a veto and therefore or stands to use a veto. >> as the regional conflict but the great powers are also on opposing sides and as i say the people paying the price are the civilian people and it would be the ultimate irony if having got humanitarian issues on the agenda for the conference on the 22nd of january if the conference gets counseled we won't even get to the humanitarian issues, my point is this, if that council is not

going to bring peace it needs to bring some semblance of wars. >> if pregnant women are the subject of sniper fire, if aid workers can't cross lines which is the moment at the, the situation at the moment, doctors said to me, our colleagues have been targeted for helping people who are on the quote, unquote wrong side. what is the kind of retribution that you are getting and so organizations like mine that have helped one and a half million syrians with medical aid are finding it increasingly difficult to get to civilians in besieged cities. that is the scale of the crisis and not confined within syria, it is now spreading across -- >> rose: what is your action plan? >> i think that there are three things in ascending order of difficulty, today is the day, first, when the u.n. issues its latest appeal, $6 billion they have called for, just to meet immediate need, up to now, the world really has turned its back and hasn't filled its commitment to deliver -- >> rose: syrians are in the same camp they were when they left syria?

>> but more than 70 percent are not in camps this is what has changed. the old way was that people would be in camps and be able to get some help to them, today, lebanon, 800,000 refugees, 250,000 of them kids not going to school, none of them in refugee camps because lebanon -- >> rose: where are they? >> they are in thousands towns and villages in lebanon, doubled by people living in syria. >> lebanon's situation is about 6 million people, they have had 800,000 refugees, that is like the whole of britain coming to america in the space of a year, 60 million brits. >> rose: and beyond sort of destabilizing and beyond the obvious humanitarian need, does it have other impact in terms of what it does in terms of destabilize a host government. >> that's exactly the right word. the neighbors of sir i can't, which are fragile countries, lebanon, jordan, notably iran, turkey they face this flood of

refugees and of course it is destabilizing, the world bank says the hit on the lebanon economy is 600 bill from the refugees they have got, jordan a very deep ally of the united states, very strong ally, has got 650,000 refugees that it can ill afford, remember, this is a strong way of putting it but i think it is right, after the second world war, there was a marshal plan to rebuild europe. these countries notably our allies in the region, they need a marshal plan, if they are to survivor what is not going to be weeks or months or -- >> rose: coming from, marshal plan came from the u.s. government. >> it did and the political leadership can come from the west but obviously the funding in the modern world won't always come from the west, we have a different shape of economic power today and you said to me what is my action plan? one, we have got to bet the cash aid in, to organizations like mine can deliver. >> do you have the organization to deliver it? >> yes, we do, polio you have got to keep the vaccine cold to get in the country, we have a cold chain, we can deliver

winteration kits and deliver medical supplies and show we have done that. >> the gates foundation has worked on this. >> i want to speak up .. for the humanitarian imperative of saving lives when you and that's what we face the situation, where we can save more lives. so that is the catch. but don't forget two other things we have to innovate in the way we deliver aid because it is not going to happen -- for example we can run cash for work programs, so people are working not just betting cash and finally most difficult is that we can staunch the dying in the humanitarian sector we can't stop the killing and to stop the killing you need politics that work and that's why far from the chemical weapons deal solving the syrian problem the humanitarian situation has gotten worse since then and that's why we can't afford to -- the political leader to turn away from it. >> rose: suppose at the table was president obama, david cameron, peng and said to you

okay we hear you, david, how much money do you need. >> well, follow the u.n., they said today to say lives this year you need $6 billion. >> rose: so that is your number too then. >> that is all of our number, this is based on the evidence on the ground. >> rose: $6 billion. >> for a year to save lives in syria and in the neighboring countries. now, by any stretch this is -- the british he is one and a half trillion dollars, the u.s. economy is ten times that size so that is why i say the cash is the easier bit the organization is very hard, we have incredit by brave staff, syrian partners as well who are taking medical aid across the border into syria to save lives today, we have got a situation where in lebanon a whole generation of syrian refer es is not getting educated, 250,000 kids without an education, but we know from our experience in the congo and afghanistan and elsewhere we can deliver community based education in emergencies. >> rose: i am trying to understand all of this as you know i have been to a camp in

jordan. this is the u.n. likely to give you the $9 billion? >> $6 billion. well the u.n. needs to get the money in the member states, right now only getting 60 percent of the funding, if that is repeatable we will only get $4 billion that means the kind of aid that is needed won't be delivered. and as i say that is the easy part, settling the war is much more difficult, but we can today, tomorrow and the day after make a difference not just to save lives but to get education in there, get some decent housing and support for these neighboring countries that are in need of a kind of marshal plan. because this is not going to be over fast, let's be absolutely honest about this, maybe three years ago people came on this show and said, assad is going to go in the space of a few months. it hasn't turned out that way. >> rose: and less likely today? >> and less likely, both sides think they can't -- they can't lose but neither side can see how to win at the moment and that's the essence of a stalemate. >> rose: and neither has any incentive to go to geneva? >> well, that is the -- that is

right and that's why the division in the security council between the u.s. and russia is so damaging. >> rose: why did you choose this job? >> i felt that this would give me a accepts of real fulfillment of the values that i hold dear, the values of social justice and internationalism that took me into domestic politics in the first place. i felt that there was a soap opera attached with every time i said anything what did ed think about it. >> rose: right, right. >> the politics and i am someone. >> rose: you felt like you had to leave britain? >> yes. and i wanted to do something that could really make a difference around the world. i wasn't looking for a big stage but i wanted to do big things. and the ngo sector is famous for its -- for its innovation, it is able to do things, to risk things that government often don't want to do and this ngo, the international rescue committee has nobility of purpose but real bravery in delivery, and i wanted to

associate myself with that and then try and write the next chapter in this illustrious history of this organization. >> rose: you assumed you could lead britain to do this and then go back when you decided to reenter politics? >> you can't assume anything, i mean our system is hard to go in and out anyway, but so one of the things you learn in life is that you write one chapter at a time and i am very committed to this organization and been there three months now, we moved the family to new york that's not the sort of thing you do to change your mind in five minutes, and so my focus is really how do we take this humanitarian agenda to the next level at a time when many people in our country want to think about their own problems. >> rose: you take it because of the challenge. what else did you consider doing? >> i looked for an opportunity to really make a difference around the world, i thought it would be very hard to do something in britain because people will be saying, look why

aren't you in politics. >> so i was foreign minister, i wanted to and there is another thing which is important, my parents were refugees. >> rose: yes. >> so i am the first generation in my family to be born in britain, my dad came to britain in mean 40, my mom came to britain in 1946, my dad from belgium and my mom from poland, they lost many, many relatives in the second world war. and so i felt in some way i was closing a personal circle by repaying a bit of the debt that i owed to the people who helped my parents by helping their successors today. >> rose: so what did your mom think when you two brothers ended up fighting each other for the leadership of a political party and you were surprised i suspect by what happened. >> i think the best thing to say about it is that mothers never should make solomon type judgments between their children and it is important that mothers always love both of their kids or all of their kids so it is

important -- >> rose: what did it do to the sibling relationship, though? >> well, i mean, what is the best way of answering that? i think the fairest and most honest way of answering it is when professional challenges get in the way of personal relationships you have to be careful not to say things you come to regret. >> rose: right. >> and that is what i think we both are trying to do. >> rose: you had to be angry, though? >> look, i am not going to get into the -- >> rose: in is shakes experience. shakes experience. >> you understand my shakespearean, you understand my curiosity. >> and it is that curiosity to make me thing the stage isn't big enough for uh uk because the media wanted to sort of pars over, in the british phrase, of course it is tough, there is no point in pretending it is not tough, but in the end, you

have -- i always say to people, you should only do things if you really want to do and only run for leadership of the political party if you really want to do it but only ever do things if you can cope with not getting what you want and if you think you can't cope with getting what you want then you -- >> rose: just stay with me for a moment. i know -- >> i have no choice but to stay with you. i think i am doomed -- >> rose: i will chain you to the chair. now, since you were a very young man there, you know, he is a future prime minister. you were foreign minister. >> uh-huh. >> rose: you would think that is the next step for you. >> and? >> it didn't happen. >> and it didn't happen. >> rose: because your brother, not somebody you didn't know, got the nomination. >> yep. out of the labor party. it is important -- i don't want myself to become the story, i want the issues i care about to be the story and i want the issues -- >> rose: but you two have the same political point of view? >> no. well, it is important, beware the, beware small differences. >> rose: ah. >> so we are in the same party,

not different parties. it is important to remember that. but within bodies we talk in the u. can you could have a broad church so you don't have been to be occupying the same pew. >> rose: there is also this, this is my last question about this. >> now i know why you are the champion interviewer it is said you are more policy and he was more politics and in the end that's the difference. >> i don't know. i mean, look, people can go and make up their own mind in the end we are both trying toly out the values that we were brought up with and the values that we hold dear and the way we understand the modern world. hopefully, we will both make a success of what we are doing. i would passionately for us both to make a success of what we are doing. it is tempting to live your life asking what might have been. and so of course it is tempting but if you live your life like that you end up torturing yourself and that stay route to disaster and what i am trying to do is focus not on the past and

what might have been, i am trying to focus on what could be and what responsibility do i have to make a difference in the role i have gotten, and what i can say is that you mentioned the beginning i spent three-year on the back bench, in our system if you are on the back benches you can speak but it is very hard to act. what i feel now with the international rescue committee is that we have a 15,000 staff around the world in very dangerous and difficult circumstances making a difference for people who need a voice and who need help and that is a cause i want to -- >> rose: and let me make this point. "the new york times" did a big profile of you, huge profile of you. and it was because you were david miliband and you had the background that you did. i don't know when they did the last huge profile of a former head of the irc, do you? >> no, i don't. >> rose: nor do i. and it is because you bring a certain international presence to this job. >> well, let me offer you this reflection which i think maybe will help your viewers think about the relationship between

politics and the humanitarian sector. >> rose: okay. >> people in the humanitarian sector, are always concerned we don't become political sized. we in the .. humanitarian part we want support whores are democrat and republicans, but i would say this. we don't want to politicize the human swear sector but humanize politics and humanizing politics means when there are great divisions in the u.n. security council over syria, that is one thing. but they shouldn't -- the people who pay the price shouldn't be the poor civilians who don't get the help they need and that's the kind of humanization of politics i think is important in a world that is more connected than ever before, but which runs the risk that people turn inward rather than look outwards and that is what i think is important now. >> rose: so said another way let the politics be about power but also let the policy by be about humanitarian issues? >> yes. >> about the humanity that is at stake in the fight for power? >> that is the thing i remind myself every day and ask myself

at the end of every day, how much difference have we made for the people striving for a decent life in 17 countries in africa, in afghanistan where i mean america has lost so much there, we are in 3,000 afghan villages making a difference, that is the test. >> rose: you know what is interesting about this too? and whether it was rwanda or what happened in the balkans, people always, they make documentaries and they write books about how could this have happened? how could they have let this happen five years later, ten years later, those are the kind of books they write, more than they write how great was the intervention that resulted in the humanity and saved lives. it is the exception rather than the rule. >> that's very powerful and there are risks in inaction as well as risk in action, my goodness we have learned in the last ten years the risk of action in iraq and afghanistan but we are learning today there are risks in inaction too. and there are things that we can do. >> rose: it is a moral issue for you. in other words, it used to be

said about certain political conflicts and if you stand aside history will judge you badly. that's what happened whenever there is genocide, history will judge you badly and we have seen in the end of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st century cases in which well-known politicians talking about intervention or talking about humanitarian crisis have literally apologized because they did not do something, because it happened on their watch, and they couldn't do something. >> well, they say in the middle east you pay interest on your mistakes. >> rose: yes. >> and that is a powerful point at the time when the world is now debating, is syria our problem or is it their problem? i am here to say it is our problem as well. >> rose: the humanitarian aspect and can you deal with the humanitarian aspect without dealing with the political aspect or just simply have to go in tandem tracks? >> in the best case they go on tandem tracks, the humanitarian world can staunch the dying, you

need the politics to snop the dying and we need both. >> rose: in the end of it too, how many lives are at stake right now. >> there are two and a half million syrians that are effectively cut off from help and their lives, i would say are at stake, we know there are 120,000 already dead if we are not careful i will be on this program in 2014 and the number will have reached 200,000 and the number of kids who are not getting education will have reached 6 million. i mean that is the kind of change that is on the way, underway and it is not just the scale. this is a middle income country in the middle of the most dangerous region in the world that is on fire. and we have got to care about that. >> rose: $6 billion in the great scheme of things for governments seems to me a small number. >> you are right. >> rose:. >> look, that is why i say, the u.n., cash for the u.n. is easy. >> rose: does it have to go to the u.n. or is china and the united states and the european union get together and say --

>> they can do -- >> rose: each of us give 2 billion and you have 8 billion already. >> yes. that's why this is about will, not -- >> rose: so why go to the united nations, why not four nations. because to the united nations organize relief they don't spend the money themselves. >> rose: okay. fine. but if you had the $6 billion would you go to the united nations for organization or wow you would take your own organization and spend the money to do the job? >> mine with others because the united nations -- >> rose: i don't understand why it is necessary when so much is so urgent at the moment and you have got the u.n. publishing an appeal today based on the evidence today of what is needed the,, in, u.n. is not saying they got the money. while we sort the politics. now the politics have to be sorted sooner rather than later. it is already too late for hundreds of thousands of people but there is an imperative now and it needs to be recognized. >> rose: but it is not either or, though it seems to me.

>> it is both and. >> rose: it is both and. and you don't seem to have as no one else i know, i mean you look at what is happening on the ground, and certainly in the last six months, you know, it seems to be the idea of solving this one way or the other, seems far apart, further apart than it was seen a year ago. >> we are further away from either side winning or either side being reconciled than we were a year ago. and in the end, the only way this will be resolved is if it is clear what is the political and security architects of the -- political and security arrangements that will underpin syria when it makes a transition from its current situation. >> rose: two other things, number one, in the speech you gave this summer you mentioned kissinger about liberal intervention, virtue runs amok, true? >> well the fear of what may go wrong if you intervene cannot become a rod with which we break our own backs about the need for

intervention. i mean in the end, preaching virtue is not enough, you actually have to make a difference, and that is true for the humanitarian sector and i think what i was referring to in my speech is the importance of learning, if not else nothing else from afghanistan and iraq you have to build the peace as well as win the war. >> rose: you have to look at history and be smart about what you do. >> yes. >> beyond syria, what are the points that we ought to know about in terms of refugee or humanitarian crisis of a large scale? >> is central africa an issue, congo an issue. >> the three burning issues now in the humanitarian space outside of syria, one, the most deadly country in the last ten years has been afghanistan, when the military forces put western forces pull out next year we need to surge in of the humanitarian effort, 3,000 afghan villages we can make a difference there and for a fraction of the military spend, we can make a big difference, secondly they are not in the

headlines generally, but the pro racketed ethnic and religious crises in africa, especially in west africa are including western african republic are compounded by climate stress right across the desert the pressure on resources is driving refugee flows as well, so thirdly, you have had a lot of people on your show talking about the remarkable change in burma in the last year or two. >> rose: exactly. >> and people are saying the politics is extraordinary, what has happened, the economic opportunities are immense there is a third leg of the stool which is the humanitarian agenda, on the western side, the border with bangladesh, 800,000 refugees, on the thai side, long-term conflict between, across the border, and so there is plept of work to do, let me just leave you with this thought. we were created by albert einstein in 1933, eight years later there are fewer walls between states than ever before, it is a pretty peaceful period of human history when it comes

to wars between states but although there are fewer wars between states there are more refugees. >> rose: right. >> 45 million refugees and internally displaced people. >> rose: conflict within. >> and civil wars plus resource pressure is creating the biggest flow of refugees and idps internally displaced people the world had ever seen, every 1.1 second we are a growth i have and we don't want to be and that's why the world need to respond. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you very much. >> rose: david miliband, the international rescue committee, back in a moment, stay with us. >> rose: ray kelly is here, new york's longest serving police commissioner and steps down on december 31st and leaves new york substantially safer than when we took his post 12 years ago, crime dropped to historic lows in every terrorist plot on the city since 9/11 has been foiled, experts say the counter terrorism and intelligence system he built rivals that of the federal government, the gains have not come without controversy, the

department uses stop and frisk is said to unfairly target minorities by its critics and also been criticized for nypd surveillance of muslim communities, william brat ten will succeed him when he leaves office, i am glad to have ray kelly back at this table. i want to begin just by understanding the following thing. 50,000 members of the nypd, correct. >> uniformed and civilian. >> rose: a budget of about 4.6 to $5 billion, somewhere in there. >> right, a little under $5 billion. >> everybody know that you have dramatically reduced crime and what you have done about terrorism and how you have been innovative in that in sending nypd people around the nobody whenever there is a crisis, whether in london or somewhere else, they know about the controversy which we will talk about what is it they don't know

about ray kelly and 12 years as head of the nypg? >> wrong it is so much ray kelly, it is a team effort, and i think something that has been perhaps overlooked is the fact that we have 6,000 fewer police officers, uniformed police officers as we had 12 years ago when in administration came in. >> rose: budget issues. >> yes because as a result of budget cuts and unless this the most diverse city in the world we have the most diverse police department in the world. our police officer rank is majority minority and we have police officers born in 106 countries. >> rose: majority minority, the minorities are the majority. >> yes, the minorities are the majority but police officers from 106 countries, born in 106 countries that gives us tremendous language skills and the ability to interact with the most diverse city anywhere, so that is something that i think is hot mentioned, and i think it

is an important factor. >> rose: are you satisfied because some people have been, have criticized you but i remember when the mayor first came to office there was a significant effort to reach out to minorities. has the relationship with the minority communities been what you -- and do you leave it where you had hoped it would be? >> yes. >> rose: between the police and the minority community. >> well, it is strong. now how do we know that? because if you look at polls and polling data, the police department polls 60 to 70 percent as far as in this most diverse city a as far as the satisfaction with the job that the police department is doing. now, you know, certain things were said in the political campaign that there was this great schism between the police and the communities, particularly communities of color, these bowls show that that is not the case. now, we understand the game, i

accept the game, you know, you run for office and you say certain things, now that is over, hopefully that issue can be put to rest. >> rose: i want to stay with that for a second and let's stop and frisk for example was a political issue for the man who is the incumbent mayor. >> right. >> rose: blaz owe, he used that as an issue effectively, it is said in terms of police analyzing that election, gave him a distinction. >> right. >> yo you two had a phone conversation. what was the nature of that conversation as it has to do with the issue we are talking about, stop and frisk? >> certainly we had a, i am not sure we had a conversation about stop and frisk we had many conversations on the phone, we was and still is today the public advocate in the city, so we have a professional relationship, but we didn't speak specifically about that. >> rose: since he has been mayor, elected mayor there has been no conversation -- >> oh, yes. no.

he came in and we had an in-depth briefing of counter-terrorism issues. he asked some very intelligent questions and that's an important area for the city as we go forward. we need, in my judgment we need counter-terrorism overlay we provide as a city. we want to augment, we want to supplement what the federal government does, new yorkers are the number one target in this country, that is a consensus of the intelligence community. we have to keep our efforts up as we go forward. > >> rose: i asked this mayor this very question and i am asking you the same question. where have you failed, in your judgment? for all of these successes, where have you failed? what would you have liked to have done more of? >> wrong we have failed. i don't think we have aid, already things you would do differently as far as small issues every day you do something different, but in terms of the big issues i think the mayor has done a terrific job and i think the police department has also done a very

good job. we set out and just to to go back and put it in context look at the days after 9/11, november, december of 9/11, after mayor bloomberg took office. >> there was also gloom and doom in the environment, newspapers, media was saying the situate is going to go to hell in a hand basket, scriem going to go up, it is not a question whether crime is going to go up, how much is it going to go up. >> terrorist attack the word used was inevitable. so when we came into office we had this rebrick of 3 cs. >> succeeding rudy julien we said we would operate under the label of the 3 cs. >> crime suppression, counter terrorism, and community relations. and all three of those area .. we have, in my judgment, major success, and as i say, in terms of community relations contrary to the things you may have heard

duferg the campaign, it simply is not sustained by the polls, we have positive, poll numbers in communities of color with the police department. a lot has to do with the fact that we now reflect the city we serve more than ever before. >> rose: people view you and bill bradden as two of the most innovative police commissioners or police chiefs because of los angeles, you because of new york, both of you because of previous work. do you see the world, do the two of you see the world of police work the same? >> >> or do you have a different mindset about what the imper it was are for a large city? combatting crime. >> i can only speak about my imper it was. and that is to save lives, and that is precisely what has happened on this administration, as far as crime fighting is concerned. >> rose: yes.

>> on mayor bloomberg's watch we have 9,200 fewer murders than we had in the 12 in previous years, in my mind that is a remarkable number, those lives saved for the most part are lives of young people of color. so that is, an important goal and an important mantra, anyway you want to use it. we are in the lay saving business, and we have to do it understandably you have to do it constitutional he and we believe that is precisely what we have done, i know there is a lawsuit here, but obviously that suit, that -- decision that decision has thousand been brought into question because the judge herself has been taken off the case. the second circuit found that there were indications of partiality on the part of the judge in some of her comments prior to the trial. and an appeal is hopefully going forward and we will see what the

ramifications are of that, but i think in terms of wha what you t yor police department to do, yes, you want them to address the issue of violence and ultimately that translates into saving lives and you look at the numbers here, we are at record lows for murders in this city. last year we were at record lows, we are 20 participant below that now, in the nineties we around six murders a day, last week, we had one murder durpt the whole week. and in mean 90, 2002, 145 murders here, with a million fewer people in the city. >> rose: granted that, what did you do to make that the reality? >> smarter policing, use of technology, use of tactics. >> rose: a presence on the ground that is visible? >> a strategy that works, absolutely, operation impact has worked for us, a real-time crime center that really doesn't exist anywhere else. we have an operation crew cut,

we call it, that addresses these young groups of mostly boys who are shooting each other. we found that these crews or gangs were responsible for about 30 percent of our shootings about a year and a half ago we put in a program that addresses it and uses social media, remarks on social media, as a result murders have come down and we are going to punish this year with about 330 murders. >> rose: the president had to address this issue because of nsa and snowden and all those disclosures, what is the right balance between on the one hand security and the other hand individual rights? >> >> privacy? >> have you had to address that same issue and rethink that same issue? >> we have to address it every day. we have a cadre of lawyers that look at our activities, we have particularly when it comes to some kind of a terrorism operations we have something

called a -- decree which was an agreement that was put in place and then was actually changed and adjusted in 2003 to help us address the threat of terrorism and that controls to a large extent what we do, the lawyers are looking at what we do on i can assure you a daily basis, but, yes, it is always, always that balance. >> rose: did it go too far? >> i don't believe so. >> rose: because of the surveillance or whatever the issue might be? >> in this is the most litigious environment in the world. i mean i get sued literally every day here as the name named defendant so people will sue on a lot of issues and bring legal action it doesn't mean necessarily that we are violating the law or violating people's rights just because an action is brought and obviously i think, you know, the stop and frisk or i hate to say that term stop and frisk. >> rose: you don't like the term. >> it is pejorative, stop and

question and sometimes frisk but i think, you know, the lawsuit that went forward hopefully will -- the appeal will continue to go forward. >> rose: but answer me this. did you because of all the attention focused on this change anything about what is called stop and frisk? >> well, what we did do is put in an ongoing training program where lawyers and experienced police officers trained people in this area every day, up in our police range. it is just a constant flow of officers who are being trained and how to do this. it is -- it has a lot of nuances that the public doesn't necessarily appreciate. by the way, this is a practice that goes on in law enforcement certainly throughout america, it is authorized or validated by a supreme court decision, terry versus ohio and is cod pied in

the law in every state in the union to allow some aspect of this. so this is not just a new york city issue. this is across law enforcement. >> rose: during the 12 years that you were here, did the nature of the terrorist threat change and the tactics of the terrorist threat? >> well, i think we are more concerned now about lone wolf and what we have also seen is the radicalization process in many ways shift to the internet. >> rose: would the loa lone lone wolf be what happened in boston? >> to a certain extent, yes. we still don't know everything about boston. >> rose: about boston. >> about the tw 22 brothers. >> rose: tsarnaev brothers. >> they went to dagestan or one brother went there, something happened there and we are not fully aware of what happened there, but yeah, they became radicalized in some way, shape or form and acted out. they used the inspire magazine which anwar awlaki showed and

these are pressure cooker bombs and they are very rudimentary and the concern is they are very simple to make and that would be an example of a lone wolf or in this case two wolves. >> rose: is that the thing you fear the most now because there is less, because it comes from places you don't know, even though there was some surveillance of them? i mean there was some recognition of them although the dots may not have been corrected, correct? >> yes. and we kind of have to look 360-degree perimeter, you can't close out any threat or lessen the danger, but surely an individual, i mean, we saw in nairobi, we saw four people, it looked like four shooters now involved in nairobi, ak 47s kill at least 67 people, maybe more, the full count is not really in. so you have to sort of cover the waterfront so to speak in terms of threats. >> how do you do it? i mean, why have you been successful? what is it? is it because you

have very good intelligence? ie, you a contact so many groups and surveillance 0 for whatever reason, the capacity now because of information going across institutions and different kind of police bodies, police institutions, you know more than you ever knew before or in the end is it because you have somebody informs on somebody? >> well, i think, yes, we have a lot more information than we have had in the past, we have a lot of ted indicated people, no question about it. we are working clothesly with the federal government, we get most of our information is coming through federal resources. >> rose: and the flow of information has gotten significantly better since 9/11? >> yes, absolutely and everybody is working together and more cooperatively than in the past. not always perfect but we are much closer so i think it is a series of things but you can't declare victory here, i mean, something could happen today or tomorrow, that wasn't and isn't on our radar screen.

we had individual guy sell drove into times square and found a parking spot in times square request a bomb in his car and nobody knew anything about him, quite frankly, so those types of things are possible, it is just the world in which we live in. >> so what are you going to do now? >> well, i will be looking at a series of things, one, i will be -- i am signing up with the -- at work and be doing. >> rose:. >> what will you be talking about? >> oh, i think some of the things we are talking about here, terrorism, policing, you know, flets that ar are emerginn the world, cyber crime, that sort of thing but that will just be one aspect of what i am doing, there will be a series of other things to be continued. >> rose: meaning you will think about offers and decide this is it more likely to be in the private sector or public sector? >> no. i am ready to go to the private sector. >> so some international organization couldn't somehow come and say, look, you have one

thing you have to do, circumstances are so difficult it is one more claim on your -- >> i don't know of any organization that would do that, but you never say never. >> rose: but people who have been in public service as much as you have always say it is hard to resist, i thought i was finished, i thought i was over and i thought i had done my part and then they come back. >> i did. >> rose:. >> you are one of them. >> that's right, exactly. and that was a tremendous pull for me, on 9/11, it did feel a certain sense of helplessness and mayor bloomberg asked me to join him and it was a very good decision for me. >> rose: has he supported you on every controversy? >> yes. he has been very, very supportive. >> rose: no light between the two of you in terms of these important issues? >> we discuss a lot of issues but, no, i mean, obviously i won't go into the specifics of conversations i have had with the mayor, but on all the big issues he has been there and

been very supportive and very vocal on it. >> rose: i want you to talk about a moment, bill brad den, the new police commissioner, you two are people that are known in the public at large, one thing is you said is that he believes .. in delegating down, you have read this and you pretty much believe that, you know, a central authority is more important way where you can really have a capacity within a very small group of people to send out what is necessary to do and to send it down the line. >> the domestic important thing the is to get the job done. there are all different sort of management styles and ways to do things but it is a bottom line issue so you get the job done, that is what counts. >> rose: what do, how do, what do you two guys differ about in law enforcement or is the technique and technology so advanced that they are commonly accepted principles about how to go about effective law enforcement and you two agree on

it? >> i think we generally agree on, again, there are a lot of different management styles, that is. >> rose: that is management style. >> yes, but that really have to do with what we are talking about here. >> rose: yes. >> >> is a lot more technology available, a lot more information available. the challenge is to get that information into the hands of the troops on the ground. i think we both agree on that. >> rose: you are going to be sad about this. i mean you have got to be. you have to. >> you have to leave, everybody has to leave atsome time. sad is not the right word. i have been in public service now 50 years, the marine corps, the police department. >> the federal government, it is time to leave and i would not use the word sad at all,. >> rose: proud? >> i am ready to go. >> rose: ready to go? >> absolutely. >> rose: nothing you didn't get to do. >> no. >> 12 years is a long time. >> rose: know it is. >> to be able to accomplish things and again, you know, you

are measured by metrics, the metrics are all going in the right direction and there is a time to leave. >> rose: are you going to write a book? >> yes. i think that is a strong possibility. >> rose: and what will wow want t to to tell us? >> we will see. i have a lot to tell you. i need to compartmentalize it. >> are you going to take a i have case. >> irrelevant will take a vacation, yes. >> rose: you say that not with great -- are you going to take a vacation? >> yes. the answer is yes. >> rose: how many vacations have you had in the last 12 years in. >> zero. >> rose: when you look around too at other cities have they copied what new york is doing because you have been innovative in the way you approached it? because they don't necessarily, necessarily have the same terrorism challenge you had, although los angeles has a real challenge as we have seen. and boston, we didn't necessarily know, but faced the challenge and has seen to have dealt with it in the city coming

back, the world series helps. >> well, law enforcement organizations come and look at what we have done. they take some things and see if it works for them, you know, it is very difficult to compare cities, because the cultures are so different, the political structure is different, the organization, the organizational chart of the departments are different. so it is very hard to compare. but we do have a lot of people coming and looking at what we are doing, a cadre of officers from massachusetts state police and boston police department came down, right after the -- after the marathon bombing. >> rose: yes. >> to see what we are doing and we are happy to share but it doesn't necessarily mean that people are going to copy what we do. as you say, the terrorist threat is not the same across the country. >> rose: when you go to these places like mumbai or when you go london or when you go to kenya, what are you looking for

what is it your guys, men and women who are in the anti-terrorism team are trying to find out? >> well, they are trying to get any information as quickly as possible that will help us better protect new york city, as you know the people we send to these cities are funded by a foundation, a police foundation, very grateful for that, but we wanted to know for instance in nairobi or mumbai, could it happen here? what are the lessons that could be learned from the events there that we can translate or transfer here? and for instance in mumbai, we saw that it started out initially as a hostage situation. we were concerned that if we had a similar situation, at multiple locations throughout the city that we would use a lot of resources and take away from the rest of the city, we were concerned we didn't have enough heavy weapons, trained officers and they are the ones for the inner perimeter so we trained

another 250 of them in our organized crime bureau and they are there to augment of emergency service officers in the event of a protracted situation. we also found out and from mumbai that the police have responded, knew nothing about the hotel, the hotels that were affected here, so what we -- >> rose: taj mahal. >> the damage and the other. >> taj and the other hotel. so what we did is video the enentrances entrances of the hotel at key locations and we use that to orient our police officers who even though they may be working in a precinct where there is a hotel they never go in there or there is no reason to go in there. so that's the type of thing that we learned in mumbai and nairobi, we know that command and control and coordination is absolutely the key, they had the army responding and they had the police responding, first the police and then the army, there were coordination problems so we take it back, we fry to translate it into understandable

language for police officers for our patrol force. >> i watched 60 minutes last night and general keith alexander both nsa and cyber warfare talked about snowden and talked about some of the issues facing them in terms of the kind of surveillances, we are talking about balance between security and whether he was listening in he raised a point about perhaps they had not done an effective job of communicating what they do. that seems to have been something that you have suggested. >> i think that's -- i think they probably could have done a better job of getting out some of the things that we do in terms of protecting the city from terrorist attack and also the whole issue of stop, question and sometimes frisk, but i must say this, it is not easy to get good news or neutral news out. you know, as the media world changes, as the print media

contracts and you have a lot more outlets on the internet, media is not always looking for good news or giving anybody the ability to do sort of an explanation piece. >> rose: right. >> so we have tried to get some of this information, we are bringing in community groups and that sort of thing but, you know, i think what tells in newspaper is a long explanation as to what we are doing and how we are protecting people's rights, that sort of thing, and, you know, people will bring a lawsuit as i said before, they will serve papers on the police department and on the newspaper and we don't even have a chance to read those papers, but a lawsuit is in the newspaper, so that is, you know, that is the world in which we live, and but betting out information as to what we go, the nuances, the details, the complexity of police work, is in the always easy. >> thank you for coming. >> well, thanks for having me charlie. >> rose: congratulations on 12

years of service. >> thank you. >> rose: good luck in the future. >> thank you very much. > captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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