captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> the bomb maker told me an american prisoner of war had been turned. he was coming home to carry out an attack. >> and you believed this. >> he told me minutes before he was executed. >> so? >> so he was my prisoner, i interrogated him for months. he was cooperating at the end. there was no reason for him to lie. >> you think i'm that p.o.w.? >> there's no one else it could be. >> rose: claire danes is here. she is there star of show time's drama series "homeland." she plays the role of carrie

matheson, a brilliant but psychologically troubled c.i.a. agent. "one of the nation's greatest losses on 9/11 was its illusion of invince ability." claire matheson personified the country's confusion. >> a green spen what i want. >> and blue is what is available. >> green is important. green is necessary. it doesn't make sense if it isn't green and it's really not an unreasonable request. >> carrie? >> oh, thank god. my green pen is dry. i asked four, five, six times far new one but there's no understanding. they offer me blue, they offer me block. is green so saturday? is green elusive? i told them for a [no audio] green pen! is she yours? >> yes. >> she should go to her room. the doctor will be in. >> i amylaser focused.

i believe there's more. the things i saw, the avenues here have methods and patterns and priorities, a single sniper, no, no. he would don't that. he never has, he never will. he goes big, he explodes. we know that. >> slow down. slow down. >> we have about a week, maybe less, to figure out the real target. not this "who shot the president" spy novel 101 bull [no audio]. >> that's the working theory. >> it's wrong. it's incomplete. walker isn't even critical. he's a pawn, no importance. there's a bigger pernicious plot out there and we have little time. we have to code it, collide it, collapse it, contain it. >> lie down, carrie. the doctor's coming. >> the important thing now is the green pen. >> rose: so i'm pleased to have claire danes back at this table. welcome. >> thank you very much for having me. >> rose: we have done a program

recently here-- in fact, today-- with a group of people talking about the third golden age of television. that this is such a great time for actors, for directors and for audience. tell me about how "homeland" fits into this for you as an actor. >> well, i think a lot of that has to do with the nature of cable television and how many liberties it affords creative people. and i started getting excited again by the show "the wire" which came out -- >> rose: right. >> that came out quite a while ago now but i was just so profoundly impressed by that show and, you know, i got me eager to participate again in that medium and break through the screen and go from audience to participant. so, yeah, it's just -- you know, people are now watching television like they read

novels. they can really burro into a series and they don't have to wait for the commercial break. they -- they don't to be at their couch thursday at 8:00, you know? >> rose: they can be there saturday morning and watch three hours in a row. >> exactly. they can binge. and the quality of the material has just kind of -- it keeps escalating and it's really very thrilling. >> rose: "homeland" obviously is a great success because of the writing and acting and a very interesting narrative. but more than that, what is it that you think makes "homeland" such an obsession for so many americans? i mean, they don't like it. they get a little bit angry. >> (laughs) yeah, well, that's a sign that they care? >> rose: exactly right. we'll talk about that. >> ye, it's -- when i read the pilot, you know, the ending was

just so -- so well constructed and i was greedy for the next one and i got the sense that that would be the case with every episode and, you know, it's -- it's really provocative subject matter and it's incredibly relevant to the what's happening right now and i -- that made me anxious, initially. because if that -- you know, i didn't want to prey on people's you will haver inment and -- vulnerability and these very heightened intense feelings that they haven't had time to resolve as i said, because it is so current. but when i met with the show runners it became really clear to they were incredibly skilled

and -- and they were -- they were experienced, skillful, and decent and they were not going to be jerks. >> rose: it has also that element of -- it seems to me you don't know who's good and bad. >> you don't. no. everybody's flawed. and, you know, everybody is trying their best, you know? but their ideas of what best is are often conflicting. but, yeah, i think it captured a new kind of anxiety and self-doubt and insecurity that we as a nation are coming to terms with. and, you know, i don't think that there has been a reputation of that in television. >> rose: does it still surprise you in the third season what carrie does? >> yes.

it does. i just -- i just finished filming the finale of the third season about five days ago so it's still very raw and -- >> rose: oh, tell us! (laughs) >> yeah. and actually i haven't seen any of the show beyond the third episode of this season. >> rose: you mean watching it yourself? >> yeah, i mean i filmed it but i haven't seen it played back. and it's always different when it's gone through the editing process and so i'm not entirely sure what it is. >> rose: but is it any different terms of watching it there when you see everything rather than just your particular part? >> oh, yes, it's very different. it's very different from when i'm actually filming it and i go "oh, yeah, mandy was working as it turns out." but, yeah, it changes. i mean, it goes through that filtering process and it becomes you know, whatever it was destined to be. but, yeah.

it's still very fresh and alive and the writers need to make it that way for themselves so, you know -- >> rose: what does that mean "for themselves"? >> well, i think they want to remain engaged. >> rose: it has to be interesting to them to create the character. >> they're always finding ways to reimagine it and reinvent it andty think every season will have a different character. a different nature, different tone, be in a slightly different context. so we'll get to experience these characters who we're becoming familiar with but in new environments. >> rose: just tell me who carrie is in your mind. >> well, carrie is kind of a superhero. and she -- she is a true patriot. i mean, she's -- as people are

in the c.i.a. that's -- they're not kidding about that. >> rose: it's about country. >> it is about country. >> rose: it's almost about anything for country. >> anything for country. and that's -- the show explore what is that means. and it's a very lonely -- deeply lonely and isolating profession. and, you know, they take incredible risks, personal risks on behalf of their country and they can't tell anyone about -- you know, those risks and -- you know, except for people within that world which is pretty -- tiny. >> rose: in fact, as you obviously know and i've talked to people about, there is that -- the heroes at the c.i.a. building in langley but they can't tell those public stories of people who did heroic things

that may have been killed in action or otherwise. >> right. right. and their failures are well publicized and their successes are not. >> rose: you talk to the character -- is there one person that your character represents in terms of the way the writers write care spree in. >> there is a woman who is very successful, a case officer who has been kind of the model for carrie. but, you know, she's -- she's a little bit less insane. >> rose: (laughs) >> no, no -- >> rose: so carrie is insane?. >> yeah, she is. she is. >> rose: you got a bit of that in that clip. >> and i -- but this woman who has served as the model met me

for lunch one day just before i did the pilot and offered whatever insight she could and kind of organized a little field trip for know go to langley and she asked some of her colleagues to spend a couple hours in a room with me sharing their experiences and it was so wild and so riveting it was really one of the most mind blowing -- >> rose: have some of those things worked their way into this? >> well, they've definitely worked their way into my performance. but i remember when i mentioned that my character would be bipolar they all literally laughed. >> rose: because they knew bipolar among thems? >> well, no, because it was just -- it seemed so impossible that anybody with a condition like that would find themselves -- >> rose: would make it through. >> yeah. within the wall of -- >> rose: so what do you think of the bipolar part of carrie?

>> well, it's useful. in the terms of our -- in the telling of our story. >> it gives you a place to spread every acting wing you have. >> yes, and it also serves the genre. she's -- you know, she's an unreliable narrator and she's paranoid but actually has reason to be paranoid and it's an exciting paradox. >> rose: and there's this aspect that she says in maybe the beginning of every episode but it's frequently said that she's torn, she regrets the fact, she is haunted by the fact that she could have stopped 9/11. >> it's easy for me, too, yes, to think about her condition in relationship to her work because she never takes her health and safety for granted.

she's sort of sitting on this bomb, so to speak and she's not afforded the kind of luxuries that most of us are afforded. she can't take her health for granted. she can't be complacent or naive and so it's -- so it's easy for her to extrapolate and maintain that kind of hypervigilance in relationship to her country. and also i think of her kind of as edward scissorhands. she's very aware of the kind of havoc that her condition can wreak in intimate relationships so she doesn't dare allow herself to become close with anyone. >> rose: she can't become close because -- she has enough knowledge of self to -- >> yes. so she has already -- has made a lot of sacrifices. she doesn't feel that she's

capable or deserving of real closeness with another person so her life is already kind of emotionally barren and therefore it's easier to give it up in order to do her very risky work. >> rose: her lover is the c.i.a.. >> yes, her lover is the c.i.a. >> rose: the man i can depression of it, it is said that in order to -- how could you, i would just add, how could you get closer to understanding that mind? >> rose: it was a really fascinating process and before i did the process i just gorged on any bit of material that i could find on the subject and i met with a woman who -- a woman called julie fast who is bipolar and has written a number of books on it. i talked to my friends who are

psychologists and have bipolar patients. and but ultimately the most useful resource was the internet of course. >> rose: and youtube. >> and youtube. and there are a lot of bipolar people who have these v-logs. video diaries and so -- you know it's one thing to read about the condition, it's another to be able to observe. t behavior of someone who is in a panic state. and, you know, so that was very -- really, really very helpful for me to kind of just make sense of their mannerisms and hear the rhythm of their voice and -- >> there's the light side of it, too. when you were accepted the hasty pudding award last year you said i'm just working my way through

the d.s.m. 5-: >> well when i first started going to school, to college, i assumed i'd be a psychology major until i realized there was a lot of lab work involved and that was not as interesting but, yeah, i've always been interested in psychology and so i'm just delighted to have an excuse to think deeply about that still. but in the context of acting. >> rose: how is carrie evolving over the three -- we're now halfway through episodes in the year three. >> she's having rough go of it this season. she's in a pretty bleak place. all the characters are, actually. the c.i.a. did blow up last season so we are we are kind of recovering from the devastation of that.

>> rose: and also wanting revenge. >> yes, and wanting revenge. but it's also -- it's interesting because one of our key writers in the show died in march just as their writers were starting to design the season and i think it's always going to be a fairly mournful season but henry's loss, i think, really influenced the writers and -- as they were writing. >> rose: how so? >> i think they were sad. >> rose: (laughs) oh, i see. >> i think they were really sad to lose their friend. >> rose: and so the sadness permeated the story. >> sadness permeated the story. it's a very dark season. >> rose: and you know some people weren't happy about this, as you know. >> yes. >> rose: because you've got -- you have brody in venezuela. we have you sort of under stress. >> right. everybody was -- >> rose: and we've got -- >> great distress and nobody is

having very much fun. but there was this -- the cons that they were playing and, yeah thinking it was a bold choice on the part of the writers to share that so many episodes in, halfway through season, but it's almost like they want to see you and brody together. that's what they want. >> yes. yes, they do. the but they will -- they'll see them again. >> rose: just wait! (laughs) >> patience. >> rose: think how good we've been to you! yeah. no, i think it's -- we're -- they're star-crossed lovers. >> rose: and will again. >> yes, and anyway it's one of those perfect impossible loves. you broke my heart, you know.

was that easy for you? was this fun? because of you i questioned my own sanity. i had myself committed to a mental institution. i lost my job, too. i lost my place in the world. i lost everything. >> i just told those people the truth. you were harassing my family. >> the truth? bull [no audio] you came this close to blowing into a million pieces. did you tell them that? >> i didn't wear a bomb! >> did you even think about me when you went tostys? >> rose: one more time, though. why are they desperately attracted to each other? because they -- >> i don't think they can even -- i don't think they know. but i think they see -- they recognize the pain in each other and the kind of

disenfranchisement and the other of the other and they have great empathy for each other and compassion and -- >> rose: and believe each other? >> yes, i think they believe in each other and i also think that they start working together. they have a working relationship and -- >> rose: and she has to escape. >> and they have a common goal and then, yeah, ultimately, you know, their lives are are -- are dependent on each other. >> rose: to hear you talk about this means that it makes it like such a wonderful acting challenge. >> it's a wonderful acting challenge. it's a lot of fun. mistakes are always preposterously high. >> rose: she's a risk taker. >> she's a risk taker. huge risk taker. >> rose: and courageous. >> and courageous and always right! >> rose: exactly. >> it turns out! >> rose: (laughs) >> just a delightful thing to play. >> rose: yes, exactly!

i told you so! i told you so! i told you so! >> yeah, she's always -- she always prevails. but they do make her go through the mud. i mean, she has to work for those victories. >> rose: and live with her pain. >> and live with her pain. yeah. it is -- as i said, i just finished filming. i'm pretty spent. i'm pretty spent. i'm a little -- i'm drained. i'm tired and i -- i really need to disengage far little while and return to my kind of bonnie infant and -- >> rose: you need quiet time away from so many demons. and you need some loving. >> i do. and i'm not a kind of methody actor. >> rose: i know that. >> i really am not but you just -- there is something to -- i have to host a lot of very, very dark feelings and thought miss hours a day and it does

something to one's chemistry and psychology, i think. so -- and it's not -- and, you know, in about a month's time it will occur to me that i'm actually fine. >> rose: (laughs) >> i'm actually pretty happy. >> rose: you know, i'm not what i -- >> no, not what i play on t.v. >>. >> rose: it's almost like you're saying "i have come to live with the idea that i'm manic-depressive and can't love and then suddenly you have to -- it takes you time to get away from that in order to find piece you have in your real life. >> exactly. exactly. and i love her. i mean, i love her and i admire her and i so wish i could beer in so many ways. >> rose: "i love her, i admire her, i wish i could be her." >> yes, but i am not and it's a good thing for everyone. >> rose: you love her because of the courage she has? obsession she snaz >> i love her because she's ultimately a virtuous person. she always does the good, right,

and brave thing and she's -- she's -- she's self-sacrificing and she's deeply responsible, you know? she is -- she's terrified of incurring harm or injury on anyone else. and she will give everything to protecting decent people from evil, you know? it's very extreme. but it's true. >> rose: what we haven't said is she is witheringly smart. >> she is very smart, yeah, and she doesn't suffer fools and she doesn't apologize for her intelligence and that's -- that's really a lot of fun. and women don't get to be that way. >> rose: yes. yeah. >> very often. and i think her condition affords her that, too. and i think that actually, you

know, when you're -- there's a certain point in one's mania-- because there's always an arc, you know, when the mania sets in. and when you're hypoman i can, when the mania starts to build there is like a sweet spot where you are the smartest american the room. where your brain is working faster and more efficiently and you are able to connect dots at an astonishing rate and gain insight very quickly into -- amazing worlds and all that. >> rose: one of the things that people talk about in the performance is the plasticity of your body, so to speak. you know what i mean? it's the notion of you are using -- you saw hit in the piece there. you are using physicality in a really compelling way. >> well, i started -- >> rose: dancing. >> i was a dancer and i loved movement and i'm really interested in it and it's true that one of the interesting

things about playing somebody with a mental kind of condition is that it affects the body. >> rose: exactly. the brain controls the muscles and everything else. >> that's always a fascinating thing to explore. i mean, damian plays a junky in this season because he becomes addicted to heroin and it was kind of wonderful to watch him make sense of that physically as an actor and to see him go through or render the experience of withdrawing from the drug. >> rose: mandy. >> rose: mandy. that role that he plays and the relationship there. tell me about that. >> well, he's a virtues who i can performer, he really is. and he's a musician and a brilliant one and i think he briles his muse musicality to the control. >> rose: in terms of voice? >> yes, in terms of voice.

>> rose: and that's what i love about him. there is something about his voice that is knowing and experienced and wide. >> rose: yes. >> and deep. >> rose: oh, very much so. >> rose: and the voice says it's just -- the way he says your name. >> oh, yeah. it's a -- he sings the performance. >> rose: exactly right. >> and he's such a good person and he's a very kind of geeky, thoughtful, deeply feeling person and he brings that to saul. but, you know, i remember when we did the first read through of the pilot it was electric. i mean, there was just a kind of chemistry that we had. i was not prepared for it at all but carrie is so -- she's man psychoshe has a very staccato style of speaking and he he's a little laconic and the contrast

is really groovy. have you seen this? >> carrie -- >> of course you have. we know we hate things getting out into the press unless of course we put them out there ourselves. >> that's not what's happening. >> you don't think i know what you are doing? i know exactly what you are doing. >> you're -- >> am i? why don't we ask him, your little lap dog, except he's trying to kill. >> breathe, carrie, you're making a mistake. >> was that a threat? >> sit down, have some dessert. >> there's nothing to talk about. take your [no audio] hands off me. >> sit on me until she calms down. >> brody was your operation solved. remember that? you proposed it, you censored it you ran it. >> rose: he seems to me -- i don't know who he talked to, what made his role -- patterned his role after who or who gave you insight like your c.i.a. person but you can just say yeah, that's what i think that smart c.i.a. person would be.

>> right. yes, well i remember, too, in the first season when i was trying to make sense of what it was to interrogate someone. >> rose: exactly. >> how do you run an interrogation so i was kind of -- i was talking to mandy about that. like how are you fairing? how are you doing this? and he said "well, i listen to the subject and i lauchb close my eyes and hear the spiel, the pitch, and find the truth in the sound of the voice." that was a musician's take on it snoochlt. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: great to see you. >> nice to see you, too. >> my name is nicholas brody and i'm sergeant in the united states marine corps.

i have a wife and two kids who i love. by the time you watch this you'll have read a lot of things about me, about what i've done. >> rose: damian lewis is here. he stars in "homeland" his khark sister nicholas brody, an american marine taken prisoner of war and turned into a terrorist. johnny davis writes in "esquire" magazine: >> i was brainwashed. people will say that i was turned into a terrorist. taught to hate my country.

i love my country. what i am is a marine like my father before me and his father before him and as a marine i swore an oath to defend the united states of america against enemies both foreign and domestic. my action this day is against such domestic enemies. the vice president and members of his national security team who i know to be liars and war criminals responsible for atrocities they were never held accountable for. this is about justice for 82 children whose deaths were never acknowledged and whose murder is a stain on the soul of this nation.

>> rose: it may surprise viewers to learn that the man who plays primarily american roles is, in fact, british. i am pleased to have damian lewis at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you for having me. thank you. >> rose: anything surprising about that that this american army, marine -- a marine who is so much a part of this very popular television series playing an american as a british actor? >> i'm constantly surprised that i'm asked to play americans but i -- >> rose: this is not the first and not the first military person, either. >> well, no, i think -- well i can tell you definitely. it all started with "band of brothers" and i was cast as a needle in a haystack. they didn't know me, they hadn't heard of me but they were going to shoot a portion of it, in fact pretty much all of it in the u.k. and they knew they were

going use some british actors. i don't think they expected to find major richard winters in england. but they did. for whatever reason. i'm very happy they did because it was a great and interesting role to play. the project was realized with such perfection and care to detail and to the truth it was like a social document and i had dialect lessons. >> rose: yes, exactly. >> and i was absolutely conscious of playing an american and since then and right up to the point where i'm now playing sergeant brody in homeland i have had fewer and fewer dialect lessons to the point where in "homeland" i just show up for work and i -- >> rose: and it's there. >> -- speak in an american accent. so much so that i go to the grocery store from north carolina, harris tweeter. >> rose: i know it.

>> so i go there on a saturday morning and i speak the girls at the checkout in an american accent. there's no reason for me to do it but sometimes i just wake up and that's because i spend the best part of half a year as an american. >> rose: why does this series which had as its predecessor a series in israel, what is about it? what is the conflict? what is the -- >> well, i have -- i have a -- i have a small theory about the sort of cultural life here in the states if i may which is predicated on fear and i think there's a tremendous fear of other here which was brought home to roost in a devastating and tragic way in 9/11 when

america sort of realized to what extent they hadn't quite got a grip of what was going on across the way there on the other side of the world and the degree to which animositys have set in. and i think "homeland," -- "24" initially tapped into that. "homeland" taps into something further down the line which is a fear and an uncertainty of that which we don't know. i find it here a lot in -- i find it here actually perpetrated in commercials all the time. there's a fear of a disease, we're sold medications endlessly we're sold the fear of political groups. of different ethnic groups, of different nationalities. and i think people kind of like being scared. people like being scared and i think this -- "homeland" has a pessimistic world view, quite a bleak world view that everywhere

every institution and every individual is damaged but we make the best we can, we get on those as best we can with those damaged individuals and those damaged institutions, protecting us from those other things that we know little about. >> rose: i agree with all of that and -- but it's also to me -- much of it is gray. while there are these very strong polls of combat and conflict and obsession about the other, there's also the grayness of the characters. while they have strength and personality and they're made of up of so many interesting elements, we don't really know where their center is. you know that carrie is patriotic. you know that -- we don't quite know about you other than we know that whatever is at the core is strong, right? >> i think, you know, there's probably ban growth in the anti-hero trade. the flawed hero. again, i know sneb a little bit

of a hook that we all hang our hat on but it's probably true to say that the anti-hero, the flawed hero has grown since then. >> rose: "breaking bad" being a perfect example. >> quite. there was a time for gary cooper. we knew he was good and he was going to fight the bad guys and he was unequivocally good. and now perhaps it's more complicated. as you say, carrie matheson this brilliant maverick intuitive smart dynamic woman who is at the same time damaged in many ways partly due to her mental illness be that she suffers from so she's an unreliable narrator, if you like. brody in his turn was man who joined up to become a marine to go and defend his country, fight for his country as a result of 9/11 was caught, incarcerated, tortured brutally, both

physically and mentally, and his life was never the same again. he was turned into an unstable agent. at times irrational, certainly damaged and i think certainly in the first season pit represented the threat, no question. and everybody was terrified of him. what's happened to this guy when he was away what was he thinking and what is he going to do to us? and at the same time-- and this is the brilliance of the writing" because we were also able to simplify the khark her two had been sent to war and whose family missed him terribly, who was a regular joe with two kids, a dog maybe and a nice job before he went away, he represented on some level every man. he represented the ordinary american joe. and we were terrified of him at the same time.

so by towards the end of the season when he does the unspeakable, strap on a suicide vest and insinuate himself in into a situation with the vice president you think "oh, my god, he's going to blow him up, he's going to commit a terrorist act." even in that moment i believe there were some people thinking "go on, you can do it. you can do it. you can do it." rooting for him. >> rose: xwhi is that? >> well, i think also because they were very clever in creating a villain. another villain. an ambiguous character. the vice president, because of the way he was trying to hush up the drone strikes, the way in which he has sanctioned the drone strikes knowing there was going to be considerable collateral damage. this show continues to be a liberal show in that way. it's going to ask the audience hard questions of themselves.

what do you really believe? who do you back? is it justifiable sanctioning drone strikes knowing that collateral damage -- >> rose: and some sympathy for what the drone strike did and understanding of what it does, which is part of the public debate today. >> absolutely. especially with our current president. >> rose: right. >> and secondarily a guy we have rooted for because we have come to know nicholas brody. he can't really strap on a suicide vest and go and kill the vice president because he's upset that his surrogate son, this character, and these other children were killed in their school. but we have some sympathy for his for the motivation of the action. and that's what homeland does time and time again. it has two or three different stories and gives you multiple

points of view you spend enough time with each character to understand their points of view. so there's always a way to sympathize. >> rose: in a sense another way to hate this person because of what they do but we're going to want you to understand him mow is he going to be the force of so much evil. >> absolutely. and for me as an actor and this is not afraid to take morally ambiguous characters and to just outright evil characters, people seem to perpetrate evil acts but it's -- the challenge is even greater than to understand why you act the way you do. and i suppose that is a post-freudian take on acting, pre-freud, of course, shakespeare -- shakespeare, of course, didn't find it necessary to explain evil. didn't find it necessary to give a back story. >> rose: he just did what? >> he just presented his evil.

he wrote in a time when there was good in the world and there was evil in the world. god existed. >> rose: you don't explain it, you just saw it and responded. >> and there was evil personified. boom. >> rose: there's also love in this between you and carrie. explain that to me. is it simply two people who know both wounded? two people who need some small place where they might want to touch? >> i was talking about them before as two broken-winged birds. which is a -- i think it's what you -- >> rose: how you see it is what -- >> well, there is the recognition between them, absolutely, that they are damaged souls. i think brody comes back to a wife he's known for a very, very long time but their experiences are now so wildly different that there is no place for them to connect anymore.

and he meet this is woman who is reckless and dangerous and has you see a darkness in her soul, i think, in her eyes, but you also see something very heady and intoxicating and which i think is true of people with bipolar condition often. they're incredibly exciting to be around and having done research into post-traumatic stress disorder, combat veterans who come back from the war zone, i think there is a sense amongst a lot of them "no one will fully understand what i have been through and so i give myself carte blanche to really behave how i see fit. and no one has a right to judge me because of what i have seen." >> rose: yeah. >> and i think they both have an element of that, i think. and -- >> rose: that kind of "i have earned the right because of what happened to me." >> i want to trash that bus

shelter over there, break the windows, throw a brick through a window and have a moment of rage and anger because of my experience of war no one has a right to stop or judge me. i think in some of them there's that sense of entitlement because no one -- none of you will understand fully what i've been through. and i think he sees that recklessness, that frenzy, if you like, it's an exciting thing that you -- when you recognize that in someone else and i think carrie has something similar and they dlekt in something which is reckless. and her love of this man or her connection to this man, this sense of a moth being drawn to a flame which they both have with one another allows her to free him and to help him escape in the night and, of course, she does that completely off the book. so she contravenes every rule going and she acts for personal reasons which, again, is why i

think "homeland" works so well. people in the end act for personal reasons. the political backdrop against the intelligence backdrop. >> rose: in everything. in terms of their professional life, in terms of their personal life. why someone is with someone who they know is bad for them. because they can't resist for whatever reason. >> i think that's right. >> rose: and that's what they are. >> i think that's right. >> rose: and you need each other. >> i think so. and it's a neat reversal of the first season. in the first season she was the only one who believed he's guilty. now, of course, she believes he's innocent -- >> rose: and the question is does love cloud her sfligs the. >> rose: >> you know, carrie -- i think you would have to say that love both elucidates moments forer in a they it can't for the others and also is a danger to her. i think you would have to say both things.

but what's great about it is it's a very human honest mistake to make. in the end where brody is concerned she's sort of working from the heart intuitively. that's not true of her all the time, though because a lot of the time, like that episode "q&a" last year where she breaks brody down and convinces brody to come back to the c.i.a. and i think we're supposed to believe that he is successfully turned back for the second half of season two. and i think she knows to use -- and she's ruthless. she's ruthless in that moment. there's no kind of soft soaping "brody, dear, you must see this the right way." she grills him and she grills him using all her skills as a c.i.a. operative. >> rose: do the two of you talk about these two characters the way you and i are talking abouttor way i talked with claire about? >> i think the answer to that is

that it's different with each actor. i don't have a method that i prescribe, show up on set or in rehearsals and demand that people go through a process with me. it's part of the skill of coming together two a group of people where you know you're going to have to do complex and intimate work and you have to develop a short hand where there's a trust and understanding which has developed quickly between you. claire and i i think worked in quite a similar way. i think we kept quite a lot to ourselves and trusted that -- our commitment to the work and how engaged we were with the materials. how ambitious we were to be for

it to be the best thing we could be meant that when we came together in front of the camera there was total and absolute commitment and focus and there was and it was always thrilling coming together at those points. also, there was quite a lot that was perhaps adversarial about those two in the beginning of the show where quite a lot was being kept close to one's chest. because you know there was this recognition initially, there was also that cat-and-mouse game, these two sort of dove it is flying around each other trying to work've other out. sometimes actors find it helpful therefore just to keep to themselves and -- so there was a -- we never got together and went through lines because i think in a certain way we wanted to just keep that familiarity.

>> rose: the potential may add to the dynamic of the performance. >> yes. and this is conjecture on my part because i've never spoken directly to claire about it. that was always what i intoed. >> rose: i think you said brody tse a vigilante rather than a jihadist. >> individual lan city probably not quite accurate but i think what i meant by it is that when i was offered this job over the phone a couple of years ago before it all started and they teed up the story for me. howard gordon spoke to me more than alex did and i just was very concerned that i was going to be asked to play an all-american boy who found allah and then became a terrorist and i thought these are slightly lazy associations and not something i would want to pander to given that there's a good chance there are people out there in the world who actually

believe that's what happens. so i want to be careful that we don't pander to that level of ignorance and so what they tried to do-- and i think they honored-- was to try to find a nuance in his faith, in his personal belief. and i believe we achieved that and it means that abu nazir never successfully radicalizes brody. so brody doesn't come back to the united states in the name of allah in order to perpetrate some kind of terrorist act. >> rose: he comes back in order to find justice for what happened to this boy he loved:. >> he says he's a marine, he loves his country, he just cannot sit by and allow drone strike and the collateral damage of drone strikes to go by unremarkable upon and, of course it's because of his unstable damaged condition having been tortured both physically and

mentally for two years before abu nazir gently starts to work on him and manipulate him and tease him and massage him to a point where brody believes he will never go home again. and he makes his home in the middle east. i think he believes this is it. i will never see my family again. and so there's this kind of feeling that i am incarcerated because i'm free to be here for the rest of my life. >> rose: i'm sure you have read most of john la caray and tinker tailor soldier spy and see some that themes from that. there is now acting out it was smiley versus carla. now we have, you know, saul versus -- you know? you see those themes coming out from his influence perhaps? >> well, if you ever have a chance to talk to alex, the creator of the show -- >> rose: i have, but --

>>. >> he is a -- devoe tae? >> oh! he is a student of john he carre and -- john le carre, of course, he really new mint it had espionage genre by daring to have a sort of literary feel with his characters. so he dared the espionage lover to come and -- yeah, kind of read my thriller. yes it will be tirn the page good, you want to know what happens next but i'm going to take time to investigate the inner lives of my characters in a more literary novel kind of way. my descriptions will be slightly more literary. it won't just be bang, bang, bang, bang. >> rose: and my character will be more fully developed. >> yeah. and i think "homeland" certainly

boroughs from that and if we come halfway to being as good as john le carre i think alex would agree he'd be delighted. >> rose: i assume you had to-- you, now-- had to have some understanding, wanted to have some understanding if you didn't already have of islam, number one. because you're face to face with it. and number two post-traumatic stress disorder. you wanted to know what it's like to be overwhelmed by that kind of understandable impact on your brain and your emotions. >> yeah. yeah. it's essential if you're going to play -- i think it's important if you're going to play people with existing conditions, you know, the i went to them to depict it, portray it as faithfully as you can. otherwise everything you do and the show around you will lose credibility.

so, yeah, i've read a lot of journals, books, biographies by people who had suffered domestic abuse from parents at home, people who had suffered rape abuse, sexual abuse. what it made them feel afterwards, it's all a type of trauma and, of course, i went to the internet, on to youtube and looked at what soldiers were talking about. >> rose: exactly. in their own words. >> in their own words and the sense of helplessness they feel when they come home and the abandonment. and i hope we show some of that and get that and equally -- equally islam, you know? and i -- i did as much research as i could and i found the local mosque in london. not fin fins bury mosque which is where abu hamzeh comes from

but the west london mosque which is another part of -- but he -- the guy there who was really part of their p.r., so welcoming and open and wanted me to come in and have a sense of it and what it is the and, of course, it's a big p.r. exercise for them. they want you to see a different side of them. >> rose: exactly. >> and i was welcomed wherever i went. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. the follo

production was produced in high definition. ♪ ♪ ♪ every single bite needed to be -- >> twinkies are in there! >> wow! >> it's like a great, big hug in the cold city. >> that food is about as spicy as i can handle and my parents put chili powder in my baby food. >> i have french fried bits all over the table. just a lot of