>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight we talk about china and and the united states with cui tiankai, china's ambassador to the united states. >> i hope the united states will have a better understanding of china's history, culture, china's past, china's present, and maybe china's future. and i do hope that the u.s. will not be so much worried about possible challenge or threat from china. we have no intention to assert everybody. the so-called rise of china is rise from our own past. it's not to prevail over anybody else. certainly not the united states. >> rose: we conclude this evening with kate tempest. he is the a brilliant and

eloquent poet and former rap artist. >> i came from a school of rap and of rhyming and telling poems where you just knew it. you put it -- you commit it to memory so that you can go anywhere and be doing it with people and so the idea of reading something from a page, it putsing? between me and you. and if i want to tell you a poem i want it to be almost occurring spontaneously. and if you commit it to memory so well that you don't even have to reach for the words it's just -- you can just mean it then i think you're in a much more valuable position as a storyteller. >> rose: china's ambassador and britain's rap poet artist when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> rose: as president obama put in the his letter, the world is looking to the united states and china to work together to solve pressing challenges and there is great potential for athlete, cultural and scientific eck changes to help solve problem for the benefit of all. >> rose: china is one of the most important countries in the world and its relationship with the united states is one of the most important relationships in the world. that relationship continues to grow in size and complexity. with me now is cui tiankai. in april, he became china's ambassador to the united states. he previously served as vice minister of foreign affairs and as china's ambassador to japan. i am very pleased to have him here at this table for the first time in what i hope will be a number of visits to talk about this important relationship. so welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: characterize the relationship today between china and the united states.

today. >> you see, in the last 35 years it seems we established different relations with each other. our two countries have gone through so much changes together. changes in the world at large and in our own countries. and fortunately we've been able to identify growing common interests, expanding our corporation and manage whatever difference we might have effectively. that enables us to develop this relationship. i think it's more comprehensive, stronger, and on a more solid basis. >> rose: let's talk about first the promise of the relationship. how it can grow and be constructive for both countries. >> there's been some discussion in both countries about the future of this relationship.

and there's growing consensus that we have to aim at a kind of new model of relationship that will be free of conflict or confrontation and the focus would be on cooperation. the basis would be much better mutual understanding, mutual confidence and mutual respect. >> rose: you were educated in the united states. >> right. >> rose: more and more people who are now -- have adults and middle age were educated in the united states there's a new generation of chinese leadership. are they different because they either lived here or were educated here or both? >> well, we certainly have a younger generation who come here for universities or even for high schools. but for my generation, i think we spend our adolescent years doing the cultural revolution.

>> right. >> rose: and we spent a lot of time in the poor remote rural areas i think that we have an understanding of the realities of our own country and what needs to be done. what are the challenges that we still face? and this is the case for our leadership, i think. actually, i believe president xi is an outstanding leader from this generation. so this generation has a determination and a vision to build china into a modern country. clearly the promise is -- >> rose: clearly the promise is they're two great countries, two large count wrez two huge economies that have pivotal not only economic but economic power. it's a different power, power at a different stage but clearly an opportunity to exercise power whether it is in terms of economic relationships or whether it is about political

hot spots like syria, like iran. is that growing at all? this opportunity for china and the united states and europe and russia to work together solving these big problems that are insolveable unless there's more participation in the solution? >> i think that that would be in the interest of all the countries concerned and this would be the expectation from the internation community because we are confronted with so many global challenges. some of the traditional, some are not so traditional and we're also handling a lot of hot spot issues. and also nonproliferation, terrorism, all these things. and it's quite obvious that all the countries, maybe particularly the permanent members of the united nations security council and other big

countries, we have to work together. we have to make joint efforts in responding to these problems. >> rose: what great powers sometimes worry about is misunderstanding each other. is that a risk? yeah, there's always such a risk. but i think that with the advancement of communication technology with the media we have a much better chance to have a better mutual understanding. >> rose: i'll give you an example. clearly high on the agenda from any conversation from the american president obama and the chinese if the xi jinping is the idea of cyber espionage, the possibility of cyber warfare and yet when you talk to people in the united states, they -- there's basically this attitude that seems to me they say will you do it as much as we do it.

how do you see that big question looming question of the cyber espionage? >> well, first of all, cyber security is, indeed, a new issue for both our countries. the technology is relatively new. and compared with other more traditional challenges that one is not that visible. but it is everywhere. there's still no complete set of international rules governing the behavior of the player or the act norse cyberspace and that's where we have to concentrate our efforts. we have to develop a whole set of internation rules governing the behavior of everybody. not only the state actors but also maybe individuals and so this is my first point. number two, the united states is

clearly the most advanced country with technology. so normally it should be the weaker party to be war more worried about the stronger party not the other way around. china is still very much lagging behind. a lot of technologies in cyberspace that we are use from the united states that originate from the united states. >> rose: clearly the u.s. technology has been used extensively in china, although china's technological base is growing and chinese companies are prospering and everybody's anticipateing the ali baba public offering. that kind of thing is clear. and some say that there will be different attitudes about privacy and other questions as these companies grow, do you agree. >> i think they aren't going to bet on this issue in many countries. >> rose: across the world.

>> indeed. >> rose: one charge leveled against your country that the government-- or aspects of the government-- carry out cyber espionage against the private sector in the united states and the united states says it doesn't do that. well, whether the united states is doing that or not it's up to the u.s. government to give you a replay. but i think for china we have already told the u.s. government and also the american business community if they do have evidence, if they do have complaints they can come to our law enforcement agencies. but so far we have got very few interest from them. >> rose: let me talk now about china's economic future. i mean, clearly not too many years from now it will have the largest economy in the world. some people say 12, 25, some people say 1230.

it will not have the largest per capita income for a while. for a long while, probably. >> for a long, long while. >> rose: and that's a crucial difference. >> yeah, that's true. but you have 150 seize that have a population of more than a million people. it's a country with a growing population and it's a country of growing economic progress. do you worry that's slowing down that you will not see 10% annual growth in your g.d.p. it's down to 7% or 8% and what happens if it goes lower? >> we do need a relatively high growth rate in order to stain economic development, to provide sufficient number of jobs for the people and to improve the well-being of the people. you need all this growth to be

there. but we're not yet in double digit growth rate anymore. >> rose: you know that's a thing of the past? >> that's right. yeah. it's no longer sustainable. the restructuring of our economy has to achieve a more sustainable development. more balanced, more sustainable, more environmentally friendly growth. >> rose: on the issue of the environment, many people, as you know, when they come back from -- some when they went to the olympics and when they come back talk about pollution and your government recognizes it's an issue. >> it's an issue, yeah. >> rose: how do you deal with it. >> it's a big issue. everybody is complaining about air quality. and we are also told that many countries have gone through this period of development in their past. >> rose: in their own industrial development. >> that's right. yi. yes. we are try very hard to avoid the mistake other countries have

made in the past but this is not easy. but we are now facing this challenge in a very direct way. we are determined that we'll have to improve the environment significantly so that people will have a better environment and the economy will be on a more sustainable basis. we can no longer rely on economic growth where we use a lot of resources with very low energy efficiency and damaging the environment. >> rose: and your rivers are said to be in some cases with respect to life inside close to dead. >> rose: we are treat manager of them and we're already seeing progress in some of them. in my hometown, shanghai, we look at the river there, it's much cleaner than a decade ago. >> rose: what does xi jinping bring in terms of vision for china? >> i think first of all there's a very strong continuity.

>> rose: continuity? >> yeah, continuity. >> rose: with the government of hu jintao? >> you see, reform in china has not started today. it started 35 years ago. >> rose: with deng xiaoping? >> with deng xiaoping. but reform started 35 years ago and we've been proceeding with reform all along in the last 35 years ago. but now china is again at at new historic juncture. and for the new leadership i think they have already made the determination that we'll have to carry out sweeping comprehensive all around reform so that a country will move forward. >> rose: which raises the question also about journalism and free expression. as you know, the "new york times" and bloomberg and others have reported or were preparing

reports on the activities of some of chinese -- china's most prominent families and it is said that their access and their visas in some cases were restricted and they're not allowed to report. in one case i think the "new york times" -- there's been some lessening of that. why is that and what's the status of it today? >> i think of many foreign media agencies-- including "new york times" and bloomberg-- they already have a large presence in china. and they are reporting development in china. but my hope is maybe not only in my capacity as a chinese ambassador but also in my capacity as a long time reader of the "new york times" first of all i hope to really abide by chinese laws and rules. >> rose: but is it against the law to report on prominent

families and powerful families in china? >> i think you have to abide by the laws and rules of any country when you're operating there. it's not only for the reporters, but for everybody. even for chinese reporters they also have to abide by the law and chinese reporters working here in the u.s., they have to abide by u.s. laws. this is quite clear. and number two, they have to base themselves on facts. and, to be honest, sometimes i could read the first paragraph of their story and i would not read the rest of it because as far as i know some of the stories are not so much based on facts. >> rose: but wouldn't it be more constructive if simply you respond to the misstatements that you were were there rather than trying to close down the activities of those journalistic efforts? >> we're not closing down the

activities in china. we have already extended the reporters evie a in china. >> rose: the case of the "new york times?" >> yeah. and these new applications will have to be handled according to the rules and laws with the due process. >> rose: and what's the status of bloomberg? >> i think it's still operating in china. >> rose: let me talk about the region, the pacific region you inhabit and there's been some flash points here. how does china see its responsibility and its leadership within the region of its own presence in the pacific. >> rose: we don't see ourselves as a leader in the region, rather we see ourselves as one of the important partners in the region. and we know that regional stability will require the efforts of everybody who have to work with our neighbors and regional prosperity was

certainly required the efforts of everybody. >> rose: let's take them one by one. japan. obviously you have serious problems with japan going to a kind of homage to a site there because in a sense you considered, i think, an affront to china. how would you characterize that? >> i think it f.i.s. very political foundation of the relationship. >> rose: between china and japan? >> not only that. he has also challenged the outcome of the second world war because the war shrine, he went, they have 14 class" a" criminals there. these criminals were tried and convicted by the international military tribunal of the far east. they are the people responsible for all the war atrocities by japan during the second world

war. like like chemical warfare, bacterial warfare, forcing women of other countries to be sex slaves and mass killing of innocent civilians. so i think prime minister abe is making a political statement. >> rose: and what is that political snaplt. >> he is denying that there were such war atrocities and he is even telling us that nobody should be responsible for these things. i think that this is a real challenge, a real challenge not only to the post-war international world but also to the international conscience. you see his outlook on history, his right wing tendency and the steps he has already taken and he would like to take with regard to security to the japanese military and so on.

the combination of this is a recipe for trouble. >> rose: how should the conflict over the islands be settled? >> we believe such issues should be handled through negotiations. >> rose: between? >> between the parties concerned. it's a territorial dispute between china and japan, then china and japan should have negotiations on this. but the problem is that the kind of japanese government, they do not even admit there is such a dispute that's a problem. >> rose: and here's where what they claim, too. they argue that china did not even make dramatic claims until after they discovered that there were mineral resources on those islands. >> if you look at historical records, it's quite clear, this has been our position that these islands are part of chinese territory. it's been our position for many,

many years. for many decades. >> rose: the united states at that time flew b-2 bombers, i think they were, but not with weapons on them. did you step that for a perfectly responsible thing for them to do? >> well, this is another issue. you're talking about the air defense identification. china was not the first country to set up such zones. there are dozens of countries who have already set up such zones, including the united states and japan. japan set up its own zone as early as 1969 and the closest point to shanghai is only 130 kilometers. >> rose: whatever i go to china and speak to people there are some who speak to me and think

that the united states wants to contain china. is that an opinion represented by the government of china or is that simply isolated sectors of the chinese body politic. >> rose: as far as official statements from the u.s. government are concerned, is they never say this is the official position or official policy of the united states. and in reality i don't think the united states would be able to do that. >> rose: but do you believe and does your government believe the united states has that intention to contain even if it could not achieve it? >> i would choose to believe the official statement by the united states government. >> rose: that has no -- >> i think they have to be -- they have to make continued efforts to prove it. >> rose: yes. well, as you know there was a film that got on the internet suggesting somehow that the united states had that kind of position in creating some

controversy. >> today's china is a very open and diversified society. there are all kinds of views, all schools of thought. i think it would be useful and helpful if people could just express the views whether you support them or not, whether you agree with them or not then after a certain kind of debate then the policy would be put on a more solid basis. >> rose: has barack obama -- i think i had maybe 12 meetings with hu jintao when he was president. they obviously had some kind of relationship now you have a new president, xi jinping. do you hope to see the same level of communication even better between president obama and president xi jinping? >> you see such high level contact in communication is always crucial for the future development of the relationship.

so we would very much -- just very much want to see closer communication and contact between the leaders of the country. >> rose: one area where i think the united states would obviously welcome chinese help is having to do with north korea. how do you see what's going on in that country today and the dramatic news of the execution of the uncle of the present north korean leader. >> you see, there's no sufficient clarity about the domestic situation but for china this is a very important issue because our national security interests are at stake. because korea is one of our neighbors. >> rose: right. >> rose: so we have to make sure that there's no nuclear weapons

on the peninsula. we have to make sure that stability and peace would be maintained and we are doing our best to facilitate negotiations to address these major concerns. >> rose: do you think they're listening to you? >> we are doing our best. but it's really up to others whether they will listen to us or not. and we are communicating-- china and the united states-- we are coordinating and communicating with each other on this issue and i think this is a very good area of cooperation. >> rose: look at the rest of the world and tell me where else you think they can cooperate, china and the united states, in a way it would be that would be with constructive to the world. >> well, in terms of -- >> rose: what are the opportunities for cooperation? >> well, in terms of security and the political stability, maybe afghanistan would be another example.

both of us want to maintain stability there and want to help in the country to reconstruct. and afghanistan is also one of our neighbors so this is an area that we can work with each other and economically there's so many things that i will have to do together. >> rose: here is the conventional wisdom that i hear frequently. china's primary interest today is to grow, stabilize reduce tensions internally. it has a huge ongoing effort to turn its economy from an exporting economy to a domestic demand economy and it's not easy to do that when you're a country the size of china with a billion three people. it's very hard. and you're basically saying to the world "this is our primary focus. give us time to work on that because we have to get that right." >> you see, i think our biggest

responsibility, our biggest international responsibility is to make our own country stable prosperous and unified eventually if we can do that, one-fifth of the global population would be living in a better world. so that would be the biggest contribution we can make to the world. >> rose: you also have been very savvy with respect to understanding china's needs around the world looking out to secure contracts that will ensure a steady supply of minerals and other natural resources for china. yes? from from africa to lalt tin america. >> you just said we have 1.3 billion people in china and we have a legitimate aspiration for a better life. like other people in other countries. in order to do that we need

resources, we need energy, we need a lot of other things. and we are also part of the international marketplace. >> then there's this in every conversation about china. more supreme come out of poverty into the middle-class in china in the history of civilization. it's a fact of life, a, because of the size of the population. b, because of how the economy that's grown at 10% for more than 30 years. that's a remarkable achievement that deng xiaoping started. when you look at it, that kind of economic reform as well it is the development of state capitalism but also a respect for markets, correct? >> you see the recent decision taken by the party central committee that has focus on giving the market the decisive

role in allocation of resources. so this market orientation is clear. >> rose: and does it also mean that there will be less favoritism to state-owned corporations? >> i don't think there has been any favoritism to state owned enterprises so far. but we will certainly address the issue of relations between the government and the market. >> rose: and the private sector as well? where they are competitive. >> so there would be what we call a level playing field. >> rose: then the question arises of political change and political reform. and some argue it's the ultimate fear of the leadership? china that there will become some destabilization that will threaten the power of the party.

>> rose: i don't agree with the review that there there will be only economic reform in china without political reform. i think we have carried out a great economic and political spheres. it would be impossible to imagine that all this economic achievement would be there, would be achieved without any change in the political system. >> rose: but then define that change in the political system. if. >> you see, when deng xiaoping started reform in china 35 years ago a major decision was taken by the priority of the party and the government should be shifted to economic development. how can you say this is just a political decision? it's certainly a political

decision. and now the recent decision by the party central committee on future reform is a comprehensive reform. we have reform in all the areas. we're in that much better commonness of the country, better rule of law. is we have the focus on greater social justice. we'll have the focus on improvement of people's welling. >> rose: human rights? >> yeah, of course, including human rights. it's in our constitution. and we're certainly -- a much better natural environment. so it's very comprehensive. it's all around. and i don't think we can achieve real flog just one of them. we have to move forward on all the fronts. >> rose: but you woulding a nooj there is this fear of

instability that might threaten the power of the party because the leadership of the country provided by the party, correct? >> yeah, i think if there's any instability in china it will first of all be certain that are the daily life of ordinary chinese people. so it's the national interest that we should maintain stability while we carry out all the necessary reform. >> rose: so where do you and where does your country -- what does it worry about that might create instability? >> well, many of the things could lead to instability. >> rose: there's a tension in the fabric of society. >> rose: it would allow social injustice to grow too much. it could certainly cause instability. that's why we are putting so much emphasis on greater social justice. >> rose: what does social justice mean? >> well, people have the better rule of law, have equal access

to opportunities to rights, to rules, anything. >> rose: there's two interesting things about china. neighbor you talk to who's proud to be chinese will ask us to respect the long tradition of china and its great history. as they rightly should. at the same time they will say to me as a reporter "you expect us to move too fast because we have a change that has just begun in a significant way in the last 30 years." and it took you a longer time in the development of democracy, in the development of institutions, in the development of a respect for the rights of the individual. does this resonate with yo >> you see, it's always a challenge to keep a proper

balance between the tradition and the need to modernize. i think we're looking to strike the proper balance. and china is such a huge country such a huge population. it's like a big ship in the sea. you cannot make sudden turns. you cannot change cause -- course all of a sudden. you have to make sure you are moving forward steadily. >> rose: when you were in the country during the cultural revolution, did you ever imagine that you would be your country's ambassador to the united states? >> no. no. it's really amazing. i think this is a very small example of how the world has changed. hour our country has changed. i told a doctor so when he made his first secret visit to china i was working on a collective

farm on the chinese/russian border. it was far, far away. i never imagined that someday i would come here, nevertheless to be the ambassador here. >> and graduate and attend johns hopkins school. international studies. fluent in english. >> well, thank you very much. but all that has been made possible by the reforms we've had. that's why we all support further reforms. >> rose: before i close, i also want to give you a chance to say what is it you respect from america and how you would like to see america change. but when you talk about reform, what are you talking about? >> maybe to put it another way, with it's a process of modernizing and changing the civilization.

>> rose: what does confucius have to do with all of this? >> well, he was a wise man, of course, people are now resorting to his teachings, trying to get some inspirations in dealing with the new challenges. >> rose: and how does he inform that in his teachings? >> i think you see people like confucius they started a lot of philosophical issues like the nature of life, relations of human beings with nature and so on. so maybe today the way i face, again, with these fundamental challenges we can get wiz from our ancestors. >> rose: what's the hardest thing about change from china? >> you have to make sure that changes will not lead lead to

instability. and you have to make sure that the people, if not all of them the overwhelming majority of them will benefit from the ching >> rose: finally from for the united states, what is it that you would like to see change about the united states? how would you like to see the united states evolve, the world's oldest democracy. >> rose: the united states is clearly the most powerful country in the world. the biggest developed country in the world. i don't think anybody can really catch up in the foreseeable future. i hope the united states will have a better understanding of china's history, culture, china's past, china's present and maybe china's future.

and i do hope that the u.s. will not be so much worried about possible challenge or threat from china. we have no intention to threaten anybody. the so-called rise of china is a rise from our own past. it's not to prevail over anybody else. certainly not the united states. >> rose: thank you for coming. it was a pleasure to have you on the program. >> thank you very much for the conversation. >> rose: ambassador cui tiankai, the ambassador of china to the united states. stay with us. >> hand i don't care about the surface! what i really care about is the infinite. the venetian that hides within it, lay down with your spirit from my elders and they will tell us children every minute is the minute to begin it. >> rose: tate tempest is here, she is a british poet who who formally identified herself as a rapper now performing in a show

called "brand new ancients." it's the story of love, betrayal violence. it's set in south london. charles isherwood writes in the "new york times" "as tempest gorges words that flow it they can con injury words so vivid it's as if you had a state yard blu ray player stuffed into your brain" how'd you like that? that's what he said. >> that's what he said, yeah. >> rose: you can catch "brand new ancients" at st. anne's warehouse in brooklyn. here is a look at the opening sequence. >> in the old days the myths were the stories we used to explain ourselves. but how can we explain the wait we hate ourselves the things we've made ourselves into? the way we break ourselves in two. the way we overcomplicate ourselves. we are still mythical.

we are still permanently trapped somewhere between the heroic and the pitiful. we are still godly. that's what's made us so monstrous. but it feels like we've forgotten that we are much more than the sum of all these things that belong to us. the empty skies rise over the benches where the old men sit and they are desolate and friendless. and the young men spit and inside they're delicate but outside they're reckless and i reckon these are our heroes. these are our lessons. >> rose: in m questions. i'm please pleased to have you here. >> i'm pleased to be here. >> rose: so tell me what i'm seeing in that clip. >> well, it's just the premise of the show is kind of opening up the things that we'll be talking about when we actually get into the narrative. >> and tell me about how you created it. you were once a rapper. >> i'm still a rapper. >> rose: still a rapper. exactly.

but do you prefer rapper to poet? >> i think poet is a -- it's a huge word and i was talking to a poet i know and he said he said poet is a praise word. it's given to you, other people can call you a poet. call yourself a poet you are probably not a poet. >> rose: (laughs) >> it's hard to identify as any one thing because i'm trying to do everything and anything and i've got ideas that sometimes come out in one form and sometimes come out in another. >> rose: what kind of skills-- tell me about your own evolution as an artist. >> well, i first came to -- i mirs came to writing my own stuff when i was writing lines and writing rap so it was all spoken. it was heard. i was playing around with rime schemes and patterns but rather than learning them as formal

structure you learn them in you're and you feel in the your mouth and it was something very exciting and urgent and i went through years of writing raps before i ever thought about writing poems or thought that i could be the kind of person that would write a poem. so i had this to i had this vital experience with language and as i've grown older it's become more serene? >> rose: isherwood said "finding the majesty and mystery in ordinary lives is precisely the aim of brand new ancients." >> hmm, yeah. >> rose: that's dead on? >> well, i think we got so lost in the everyday as we have to, we have to go to work, we have to feed our families but in the onslaught of the everyday and the kind of surface and money and cities and people and -- that we forget to see the magic in things and how important each

moment can be and -- in the bigger picture, in the tiniest little things can be the most wonderful so it's to kind of remind us in the magic of all things and i hope that's what "brand new ancients" reminds the audience of. >> rose: when you created the characters, were they simply coming whole from your own imagination or did you have someone in mind? >> i think that when you're a writer all characters begin some truth from somewhere. they have to be people that you've known or loved otherwise they won't stand up when you need them to. >> rose: right. >> but they -- the first draft of these characters were lacking and i could see what i was doing was writing the easy version and what you want is for a character to have contradictions and to

not be all the expected things that characters are so you go back to and revisit them and kind of let them breed without you telling them to. are. >> rose: let's talk about the characters. let's talk about kevin first. you have said about him "a god who knows well how to settle for less." >> yeah. (laughs) he's the kind of guy who puts up with life and doesn't expect life to give him anything other than what it's giving him and he knows to make piece with what he has and he's hardworking and he loves his wife even though he's aware that she's being unfaithful to him and he is kind of -- the kind of man who is resigned to coping and i think that there is a lot of sfleng that kind of man and often that kind of cast is the dreary character but i think there's a lot of real courage in living

life like that. >> rose: and jane, his wife? >> jane is -- well, she's fallen in love with somebody who isn't a husband. she's found herself that at this time of life it isn't what she thought it would be and she's fallen in love with this neighbor who is a kind of brute and she thinks he's great for whatever reason and she finds herself trapped in this moment of guilt where she reacted badly and now she has a child to raise that's a reminder of the guilt she characters. >> rose: and brian is married to marry. >> brian is married to mary. he drinks too much and he's got a job that he doesn't love and he's not a great father to his son. he's angry, has great problems with violence and he's in a loveless stifling marriage. >> rose: and kevin comes to realize that brian -- that the child of brian and jane is not

his and second these live with it and so tommy becomes a character. >> yes. tom smi the son. i suppose that what i was trying to do is having all of these characters present is give the kind of feeling you get when you're from a neighborhood or from a place and you know everything about somebody's family without even having to think. so you know everything about their parents, so i suppose tommy is is the main character. so these stories about the affair and the infidelity are just the kind of setup that lead you into the story of tommy. >> rose: and who is clive? >> clive is brian's son. >> with mary. >> with mary. and he is tommy's unwitting half brother and they grow up very close not knowing who the other is. >> rose: and clive's first friend is spike. >> spider. >> rose: spider i mean.

>> his name is spider because he's involved in a fire that clive actually starts and he ends up with a scar on his face. >> rose: so what do we see in this shea from >> i didn't intend for the play to do anything other than -- i wanted to just write it because it was an idea i was working on. and as it's become a finished show what it can do for audience or readers kind of nothing to do with me. >> rose: it has everything to do with their lives. >> yeah. i think it's important for artists to be able to just say well, i let go of it now, this is for you if you want it and if not that's fine. >> rose: so perform something for me, if you will. some sense of -- and tell us what we are experiencing? >> i'll do the kind of introduction of explaining those characters that we've just talked about. let's focus. it's dusk on a weekday night, the kids scream and fighting the in the roud, the young men whittle at the girls get sworn at, pan out slowly, draw back,

here, this street, this road, this house. here. kevin, slowly moves about. he puts his plate on the table, pour it is stout slow from the bottle and he sits, he's about to eat but first we see him eye the empty chair. where is she? she's not there. kevin checks his watch and he shrugs his shoulders and he looks back down at his egg and soldiers, the photo on the mantlepiece shows them both, romantic beach excursion from the hazy past and jane is beaming and kevin clasps her hand in his, and is beaming. my wife, he sighs, feels empty. so here we have them. this is kevin and jane. and jane is bored now and ready for change but kevin don't see it steady and plain, get on and get right tight don't mention your pain. well, let's meet their neighbors this is mary and brian and she's sick of his lies and he's sick of her crying in fact if we're being honest they're sick of the sight of each other, and there's no point in trying, they haven't been happy in years.

now jane never knew she had a body like the forest in the rain but she felt all that change when she heard brian say her name and now shame is ripping through her belly and her brain leavinger in pieces with these secrets to contain. you know, lust. heavy in her hands and her guts, the trust was once there and now it's gone all crust. her marriage was robust to the point it was gathering dust but now her blood gets hot at the thought of his touch and it's no big deal right, just to say crush. this can't be love. but nights, weeks, months, it's love. she's such a fool. she tries to call a stop to it then wakes up in a fever sick for loving. she cannot sit still. she's getting changed, the panic thrill, the chill, lipstick in the cab, at the hotel bar, she's had a couple now, she's smiling, touching, tonight we are not wives or husbands, tonight just us, just this, just crush me, finish me tonight, man! love me! poor kevin. see him, dignified, resolute, head down, a monument to the cavalry of men who have never let down a friend. see him eyes strained from

staring too long at her empty chair while she gives herself away and he knows it, he feels it all day but can't say. >> rose: stunningly brilliant. >> thank you. >> rose: it really is. so tell me about learning the performance of it all. which has to do with command of language, it these do with pacing and restrictions it these do with the passion and the words. >> rose: well, i came from a school of rapping and rhyming and telling poems with you just knew it. you commit it to memory so that you can go anywhere and be anywhere and be doing it with people. and so if i want to tell you a poem, i want it to be almost occurring spontaneously and if you commit it to memory so well that you don't even have to

reach for the words it's just -- you can just mean it then i think you're in a much more valuable position as a storyteller. and i've seen and read about old poets who would commit their poems to memory and i think it's -- i just think it's a more exciting thing to do because you're kind of always on the edge of it. any minute you could disappear but in terms of trying to learn it i just -- i just repeated it often. >> rose: how -- is there a technique for you to commit to memory so you own it? >> you just have to get behind the intention of each line and remember that each line leads somewhere and that once you get on board with it and you grow you have an responsibility an an obligation to the right way. so it's a question of knowing

where it will be likely to go. so you know -- i know how i want to say it so this is probably -- and also just -- it's just learning lines. actors do it forever. >> rose: yes. is it difficult, though? >> i've never memorized something this long so this is like 70 minutes. >> rose: 17? >> 70. >> rose: oh, i thought, 17 is too little. >> it's the longest piece that i've memorized. >> rose: did it take six months or -- >> it took -- i don't know. >> rose: it came -- >> the minute you begin writing it you begin memorizing but it's strange. i feel like a burden with it sometimes and i have this strange relationship with it where i worry that i'm not going to be able to do it but when it works it really works. >> rose: so finally tell me about your dad and what he taught you in his experience from going from a labor to a man who was a criminal lawyer. >> he's a really interesting --

he's a very poetic man and -- he plays music and he paints and he used to write plays. but for his job he used to build houses. so he was build when i was it will until the north of england. and when i was born-- i'm the youngest of five children-- my dad went to night school when i was two or three and he trained up and got his long degree and he has his own firm and my brother work there is and he taught me about providing but never losing sight of the magic in things so as you begin this interview i'm talking about how important that is. but my dad now he blows glass and he writes -- you have to see these crazy poetic text messages that you'll get out of the blue. he's a great guy and i didn't realize how unusual that was and to be hardworking and to be intellectual and to be creative but that's just who he is and

hopefully it's like -- it's the example that he's left for his children anyway. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: pleasure to have you here. kate tempest. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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