>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening talking about the super bowl, it is super bowl week and the game is on sunday, we talk with peter king, rachel nichols and adam schefter, this will be the colding weather super bowl that has ever been played and the temperatures will be in the twenties and thirties throughout the course of the night, it won't be anything cat chris politic or anything of that sort but it will have some impact on the game and be a novelty and play in the elements and have the elements. >> rose: does cold weather favor the defense, then? >> i think maybe if there is any team that would have an advantage maybe i it is seattle and its defense, but these two teams are used to it and grabbing in this cold weather all week long, denver is not exactly. >> rose: warm. >> sunshine. >> rose: and there is a fascinating new film about art, it is called tim's vermeer, we have tim jenison and teller. >> and i had seen the have meres in a museum and if you look by

aver mears in a, vermeer in a museum it says i may be a photograph, and so i got interested. >> rose: that is good. >> it is. it is too good, it is inhumanely good and i realize as a video guy what vermeer was painting there is really not possible because the eye doesn't see what he painted. it is the way a camera sees but not the way a human sees, and so i knew that there had to be a trick, a technique that he could have traced the colors, not only the shapes but traced the colors and the that's what got me going on it and one day it occurred to me. we went into this all fascinated with the vermeer technology, we thought, we originally called the movie vermeer's edge and thought this was going to be a movie about vermeer but the more we looked at it the more we went into it the more we realized it is really a story about tim, you know, it is about this, a person who has such determination and such intelligence he can stick with it beyond any, what any ordinary person would do. >> rose: yes. football and vermeer, not a bad

combination when we continue. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> i certainly had a career change two years ago with my injury, changing teams and i

truly had been a one-year at a time basis so i really had no plans beyond this game. >> rose: the 48 super bowl kicks off next sunday in east rutherford new jersey, they have, the seahawks and broncos will battle, led by quarterback peyton manning, denver dominated opposing defenses which with a league record 606 points, seattle has the best defense, quarterback richard sherman anchors a legendary boom, marks the first played in a cold weather climate, peter king is a senior writer for illustrate sports illustrated and writes the column quarterback, and unguarded he is friday night, adam schefter is espn's nfl insider, sports illustrated ranked him at number 13 on his list of most powerful people in sports media, and in march of 2013. so here it is. the most frequently discussed subjects are the weather on the

one hand, and secondly richard sherman. since we have been here waiting for them to get the technical stuff ready which have talked about two things, the weather and richard sherman. >> and i heard you say legion of boom which makes my day. you said legion of boom. >> rose: all right. so let's just talk about those two things, first the weather. >> well, the weather forecast for sunday is such we are going to see 30 degrees, if i could give you my own. >> 30s, about 15 miles per hour wind which is enough to play some havoc which peyton manning passes but this will be the coldest weather super bowl that has ever been played and the temperatures will be in the twenties and thirties throughout the course of the night. it won't be anything cataclysmic or anything of that sort but it will be such that it will have some impact on the game and be a novelty. and play in the elements strand the elements. >> rose: does cold weather favor the defense, then? >> i think that maybe if there is any team that would have an advantage maybe it is seattle and its defense, but these two

teams are used it to, they are practicing in this cold weather all week long, denver is not exactly. >> rose: warm. >> sunshine paradise. >> rose: not miami. >> they have played games in the game before and peyton manning has been around. >> rose: they are not new to this. >> the biggest thing, charlie, peyton manning had four neck surgery and his arm strength is 85 percent of what it was at its peak and if there are 15 miles per hour winds he will be affected by this. he won't be ruined by it, but he will be affected by this. and that is one of the reasons why i have always thought the super bowl you should really want your players to be on a stage that is, that is the least affected by weather of any game of the year. >> although the side note to the side note and it is a game of inches is that he has been gettin tutelage from his little brother eli, that is of course his home stadium, the meadowland stadium is infamous but not having just wind but odd wind, weird wind and he is telling him how the

wind shifts. >> rose: advice about the stadium and the weather but not seahawks. >> no. a shutout, she may not want to listen to him on that. >> rose: richard sherman, you did the interview. >> yes. >> tell me about this interview you did and what should we understand because the outburst has been the driving story since the moment it happened. >> well, what i loved about talking to him is you got to see the full picture of who richard sherman is, 20 seconds and by the way that is all that outburst was, we timed it, just 20 seconds, debt us not give a full picture of anyone and certainly not when you take the 22nds of him on the field when he is in the middle of this full-scale corner back bravado persona and you get to see how the yes, sir of richard sherman, his background and we also talked about some of the issues that he faced after that moment on the field, the backlash against him and really how quickly race came into the discussion for him, both in specific language, a lot of hate speech and tweets and a lot of things he got but the coded

language what really bothered him was the use of the word thug and things like that and people got to see richard sherman speak very eloquently on that subject and show the depth of who he was. >> and the most important coming out of that interview was, you think? >> the impression of him, the tone and look this is a stanford educated guy which you might know from a line in his bio, bio, but speaking so eloquently on the issues what peter already knows how a smart this guy is and how everything he does, it is not an accident. >> rose: he went out to seattle to write a column. why him and tell me the experience of getting him to write. >> charlie, i sort of invented this new web site called the mmqb, which is under the sports illustrated umbrella and it was going to be all about the nfl and one of the things i was convinced we had to do is be different, we have to be different from espn and different from the huge football sites that have far more manpower and are established, so my whole thing was i wanted to

get players and coaches and maybe even front office people to write stories for us, and to write columns for us, and i wanted to be embedded where we, people have never been before in football, so i wanted to get a player who i knew was really smart and i knew richard sherman was really smart and i wanted to get a player who would be willing to say, roger goodell you are wrong about that which i knew he would be willing to do and make reasoned, calm, smart arguments, and i asked him, it didn't take long, he thought about it for a little while but he really wanted to do it, i think because he wanted people in america to know who he was. and it is very -- charlie, i coached girl softball in mount claire, new jersey for 17 years and one of the hallmarks of my team always was we are going to play in a sportsmanlike manner. i hate showboating, i hate, you know, jacking at people and yelling at people, i wanted ..

us to portray the way we play the game with class. so i don't like what richard sherman did to michael crabtree, i don't like the choke sign he gave to the bench. but i also tried to say to myself, who died and made me the arbiter of all things sportsmanship and class, so my whole thing is, charlie, i wanted to let him speak for himself this season, which is what he has done in his column. >> and in our interview richard sherman made the point that he has to have an element of showboating and bravado and yack on the field, he feels his position, he had to have so much outsized confidence to go up against the best in the game and to intimidate them and he thinks that is part of the game on the field and that is a slice of what you saw in the post game interview. >> and here we are in the week leading up to super bowl xlviii and the predominant -- you mentioned richard sherman has dwarfed everything and peyton manning is on the verge of winning the straight fifth mvp and we haven't spoken much about him. >> rose: tabbed history he

believes he deserves and most people believe he deval patrick serves two super bowl rings. >> richard sherman is the dominant thing, the post game tirade, tirades if you considered the other, and it has taken on a life to their own where it has really floored me the shelf life of this story. >> rose: okay. going into this nfl season, how good did you think he was? >> i think everybody knew richard sherman was a top corner back, in part because the way he played and in part because he had to bring attention to himself, i think if he has never done that and called out the, rivas in the past on whic twitty he did ander really rivas was considered the best corner back and told everybody he was much better than i are extras and the numbers over the kors course of one season was the best over his career so he brought attention to himself and played great. >> rose: and he is also a guy who understands marketing and looked at muhammad ali's career and said if i am going to be able to get what i believe i

deserve and be the kind of larger than life personality i have got to showboat. yes? >> i think he realized that and i think he has got one advantage over dion sanders who probably was the other huge, big talking corner, you know, in recent in nfl history and i think his advantage is that when, when he was young and growing up in los angeles in a bad part of long los angeles, he understood, i think, what the real down side to life was, his father was a gang member who got out of the gang at age 19, and the gang members in his neighborhood who surrounded him basically i think let him off because he wanted to try to raise kids, you know, to be better and get out of this life. so i think he understands better than almost anybody the value of an education, because his father is basically scared him into knowing that if you go where i

go, there is no way out. >> rose: yes. >> he is a fifth round draft pick and a defensive player, these are not recipes for financial success in the endorsement record playing in a corner of the country yet his agents says he stand to make five idea filled in endorsement this off season he told me when he was seven or eight years old he discovered muhammad ali and became entranced by watching his films, there is not an accident. this is savvy. >> let's talk about the next big player here or certainly the biggest player, peyton manning. >> this is important to him for all the reasons i suggested and we have talked about peyton manning, almost every year here, when we talk about the nfl. will he throw too? >> richard sherman? >> i don't think he will -- i think what he will do, charlie, is he will look at everything in a very nonego tistical way and do everything based on the match-up he sees.

if for instance his fifth wide receiver andre caldwell is on the fourth corner of the seattle seahawks in a five receiver formation, he doesn't -- richard sherman could be, come on throw it to me, come on, throw it to me, it won't matter, he is going to throw it to andre caldwell because peyton manning cares only about the match-up and doesn't care anything about i am going to show richard sherman who is the best. >> i knew that. to know peyton manning and know about him answers that question. how good is peyton manning. >> well he doesn't need to win the super bowl to prove how good he is, in my estimation there is a great column written by dan graziano let's just give this up and stop the talk of peyton has to prove himself and if he doesn't win the big one then it is all a disaster, , i couldn't agree more, he is the greatest quarterback to have played this game and by the time he is done, you don't think so? >> well i think he is most certainly in the three or four

greatest. >> arcably the greatest. >> definitely among the greatest. >> and i don't think a super bowl will make the difference but i think he wants it very, very badly and i think this is his chance, this is for himself. >> rose: and peter, what puts him there? what skills put him there? >> i think it i it is as much hs arduous labor to try to do things right as it is his intelligence and charlie let me tell you a quick story. in the afc championship game i spent some time after the game and i said what player are you really proud of and you know what he brought up? >> a six-yard run by a fullback by the name of virgil green and i said, geez, he is so proud of it because virgil green played 48 games in his nfl history, and never had a running play, peyton manning has played bill belichick a thousand times, he knows that belichick knows everything about him, so -- >> rose: and belichick would never assume he would give the

ball -- >> they are going to give the ball to a 285-pound tight end in the backfield who has never run the ball before in his life, and he gave him the ball and manning says now that couldn't have been on bill belichick's checklist. >> rose: because he out thought bill belichick. >> yes because his whole thing thought is i am not necessarily the best physical quarterback in the nfl, but what i am is, you are not going to be able to out think me, if i make a mistake you can get an interception and you can beat me, but you are not going to out think me. >> he actually said he is sending right now and he thinks he is getting better and improving. >> rose: is he right? >> listen look at his numbers, nobody ever had -- >> nobody had -- >> his arm is less, and his numbers are more. >> rose: but what does that say. >> it is where you got, not how you get there. >> what i think it says is that peyton manning now realizes he doesn't have to throw the ball 50-yard down the field to be

great, and, you know,, right now, he knows that if i am going to dung to my tight end and running back, that is okay, that is going to win too. >> rose: and he wants to win. traditional questions about this game, number one, offensive -- best offense versus best defense; is that true? >> yeah, listen, look at the numbers, they bear it out, this is a record-setting offense. >> right. >> a historic offense the broncos are lining up and seattle had the best defense in the league all yearlong, kind of like the match-up in 1990 between the giants and the bills when buffalo bills came into the game, high-flying outfit and came off a divisional natural win on 50 points and they came and met the giants with this tough defense, were you covering the giants back then, peter? >> no, but -- >> we know how that went. >> and i think there have been seven or eight stains where the top ranked offense and defense and the defense typically has come out ahead, for whatever that is worth. >> rose: okay. what about this, more experience at super wole, the super bowl

events, that goes to the denver broncos and peyton manning. >> i don't think anybody on the seahawks has played on the super bowl before, an amazing number, zero yoncht you peyton one of the most experienced players and carter backs in the league and russell wilson on the other end, second year player, i mean this is a kid who was drafted 75th overall, i mean, the opposite of peyton manning, if the foot, 11, when you are told in the nfl you havhave to be six-two to even be considered a good quarterback, it is just a fascinating look at old school and sort of that experience and everything we think a quarterback should be versus new, fresh, young, different. >> rose: which all quarterback will be. >> we will see. >> in the future, more quarterbacks are running than not? is that too easy a general says. >> it is too easy a generalization because i think if you look at probably the -- you know, if god today would create a quarterback it would be andrew luck, because he can both run and he has a great army,

great arm. >> rose: he is big. >> he is big. i think we vastly over rate size and how great an arm you have to have, because look at russell wilson, he plays in crummy weather half the time, and you look, he is on his way to being the most successful quarterback seattle has ever had, and he only is in his second year in the league and i would just say that i think too much we pigeonhole quarterbacks, drew brees, too short, russell wilson, too short, this guy shouldn't be able to run now they are saying it about johnny manziel from texas a & m, i think that what you have to do is you have to take every case individually and there is more than one way to win at the quarterback position. >> rose:. >> russell wilson, had he been this much taller, this much taller, he would have been a top ten pick rather than the 75th overall pick. >> rose: so size is the way he was picked. >> 100 percent. it is the reason he went in the third round and people looking at him and says this guy can run

and three. >> rose: how do you know that because you know football or because coaches said so? >> >> everything is about measurements, there is a whole i have on that and when he was on the draft board the discussion on him was solely, making up those two or three inches adam is talk about, six-two on the lines the scouts like to say and that is changing, drew brees is six feet tall, wilson is five-11, 1 of the smartest guys in football right now is a guy name john schneider general manager of the seahawks and he scouted russell wilson guys his last year at wisconsin, and he came back and told peter carroll, he says you have to trust me on this, you have to trust me, his competitiveness is unlike any quarterback i have ever seen. hook at all the great ones, and i think that, at that posion, you have to be so competitive right now that you have to just say, well, you know, if i have to come 4:30 every morning i am coming at 4:30 every morning you could tell russell wilson

whatever the rules are, it doesn't matter what they are. he is going to comply with the rules and he is going to win. he is one of those guys. >> rose: let's talk about the coaching match-up. fox versus carroll. >> see, pete carroll carol is an intriguing character, charlie, because 20 years ago this month the new york jets hired him and they only gave him one year went since and ten and lost the last five in a row and got fired. and i think one of the things that he learned from that experience is very simple thing. you better be able to read the tea leaves about what your boss wants and about the way that you are communicating with your boss. okay? and his boss was a guy named leon hess and leon hess was obviously kind of a rethrough receive guy, you know, and for much of his life and obviously right before he died but i think, i they peter pete carroll carol learned you better be able to communicate both through your general manager and your owner very well and right now he has that guy and another

reclue stiff own in paul allen. >> but i think right now what pete has done is read the tea leaves perfectly and has the same kind of risk taking general manager in john schneider that is the way -- >> rose: but how does he get along with his players? >> fantastic. he is a player's coach h se high energy and young at heart. he may be the oldest coach in the league. >> he is really enthusiastic. oldest coach in the league and doesn't act like it at all. >> i will tell you this, i go on a training camp every year and 20 to 23 teams and i went to seattle and they practiced at 10:00 a.m. full practice and one of the reasons they practiced then at that hour, a lot of teams will practice later in the day he wanted to practice at 10:00 a.m. because that's the time they had five east coast games this year, so he did that. and not only is he practicing at 10:00 a.m., but h he has not 90-decibel music playing for the whole practice, rap, country, rock, everything. >> i heard -- >> no, it is not off-line, i it

could be bruce springsteen but i will say this, what i found interesting about, this his players just really appreciate that, in part because a lot of his players are the ones picking the music. you know. >> rose: it shows a certain connection to the players. tell me about running back. what should we watch for? >> as i say, we did a big piece with john favre to get the other side of that, yes, you know, john fox is devonly a player's coach, anyone who has been around him, he really has the investment of his guys, and his story i think is being overlooked almost. >> oh, yes. >> this is a guy. >> rose: heart attack and -- >> yeah. this is a guy who miss add quarter of the, missed a quarter of the season and basically the two-third mark, missed a quarter of the season, was coaching basically from his other house in charlotte, north carolina, had a genetic defect in his heart, put off getting it fixed because there is something to do, tells you about the life of an nfl coach, will collapsed on

the golf course and told me he thought he was going and he thought that was it and the moment and instead, obviously made a full recovery and has come back to coach this team, and i think there are a lot of players on this bronco's team who, you know, they all want to win for their own reasons but their success in winning this is to him. and they have really connected you can go through every coach and player and find a reason everybody wants to win for that particular person. >> john fox, champ bailey, the bronco's 12:00 pro never been to a super bowl, pat bowling, who knows how many super bowls will he get, so many people you want to, john fox is interesting because last year the broncos were number one steed and played baltimore ravens, they handed off the football way too much and tried to run out the clock and got passive when they should have been aggressive and this year against san diego when confronted with the exact same situation, they left peyton manning throw the ball and got aggressive and it was a risky converse that paid off to help them win the game and helped propel them to where they are

today and i believe he knows that when you have peyton manning it is best to be a aggress stiff and leave the game in his hands instead of conservative and try to run out the clock. >> from the baltimore game, everything since then has been informed from that play. the fans feel like hey you listened and grew from that, that makes a difference to people. >> rose: running backs. >> we are all looking to see marino cry. >> rose: explain that. >> he had a great moment during a national anthem earlier this year where it was the national anthem, i mean this is not after a hard fought game and he is that right the waterworks just came on, it is unbelievable weeping on the field. >> not a great one, and unmatched moment, that if anybody hasn't seen they need to see the replays of it because it is hard to imagine that so many tears could come out of one person's eyes. >> right. >> it is unbelievable to watch i do believe the running backs for all the talk of richard sherman the running backs decide this game. >> rose: that's why i brought it up. >> because i think the key to

beating seattle, stack the box, can you beat us? and with denver, seattle has the corner backs to neutralize denver's wide receivers and the passing, man to man out there, go ahead sean marino and monty ball, the rookie quarterback and see if you can run the football against us and beat us and maybe the game that runs the best will win, charlie. >> who do you think that will be. >> peter is picking denver, i am picking denver, i think seattle have may be the better team but denver has a lot of mojo going on. >> charlie, i think this having watched peter man ago lot this year and having been around him a lot, i just think he is going to be able to make enough plays in this game, even if he does get a couple of his really big receivers taken away by a great secondary, i just think he is going to figure it out. he is that determined and that focused. >> rose: and that smart. >> and that smart. >> and that prepared and everything. so of course that means seattle is going to win. >> rose: you are picking

seattle? >> i would say we all have a better chance of picking the lottery. anybody who is here, anybody who sits here and says they know what is going to happen, i think these are two fantastic teams and it will probably come down to two minutes and three plays and if we are lucky it is going to be a bounce -- >> rose: is that because you don't like to pick winners or -- >> philosophically i don't like the process of sitting up here and picking. i think i there are incredible moments in sports come from things we don't expect, that's what i love about sitting in stadiums, so why sit here and pretend we know what those incredible moments are going to be. >> i will say this, there are coaches involved in these games and this has happened during the playoffs, i think coaches say to me, coaches before a play-off game, this post season say boy we match up well with this team and it is going to be a great day and that team goes and loses, so the coaches don't know what is going to happen in this game. >> rose: when you talk to all the players all you all of you have talked, to what is the

impact of the super bowl? >> well, you know, you get -- >> rose: bring out the best in the best? >> i think it really does, and i think you can just see, i mean, peyton manning will play this game and all of these play-off games for about 1:30th of what his regular salary for a game is. and i think all of these guys, their whole lives because they have wanted to get to this moment so badly, that they sacrifice things. you guys had a poll on espn about the players who knowingly would play with a concussion, 85 percent of the players they polled would knowingly play a concussion and i will just say, one quick thing, i believe that players feel like a concussion is going to go away in a week, so i am not worried about it. and i would rather have a concussion than blowout my knee. >> and this is everything that they have worked for.

>> rose: right. >> their entire careers. this is the culmination of that. so when they are standing there and they are playing the national anthem and queen latifah is stinging. >> and marino is crying, this is what they have worked their entire lives for to get to this moment and this day. and let's not forget this is the most watched event on television in our country, year after year, we live in the most, you know we live in an increasing fractured society, so many has so many different interest and things this is the moment as a country like it or not we come together and all have the same experience, that that doesn't happen much anymore and something i think is special. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> sure, charlie. >> rose: thank you, rachel. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: back in a moment, stay with us. >> tim was not and is not a painter so, so i didn't know had this whole little sub obsession with vermeer. >> tim's vermeer project started 11 years back in 2002 when his

daughter gave him a copy of hawk's knowledge, hawk by wrote when pictures start to look less like this and more like this, that was because artists had found new tools to help them. >> rose: vermeer was 17th century dutch painter known for his masterful use of light, artist and art historians was fascinated how he could paint in such a in such a great way that pictured paragraph at this before its exist stebts. >> he is a texas based invent sorry who thinks he may have discovered the answer, an optical tool that could have helped vermeer achieve his affect and tested his theory by attempting to paint his own masterpiece, his journey and chronicle is a new documentary here is the trailer for the film tim's vermeer. >> sometimes when i am trying to get to sleep all i can think about is trying to paint aver. >> a, vermeer. >> on the face of it that seems almost impossible because i am not a painter. >> i am a computer graphics guy

and we use technology to make realistic, beautiful image. >> tim and i have been friends for a really long time, i didn't know he has this whole little stub obsession with vermeer. >> i am looking at this image and i looking looks like it came out of a video camera. >> it is something an artist can't see. there must be a way to actually gets the colors accurate with mechanical means. they are propped up a small mirror at 45 degrees angle right on the forehead you can see they match, holy cow. >> it took me half an hour to learn how to operate a paint brush. >> it took me 40 years. >> it is possible that he was more of a teaker, more of a geek and in that way i feel akin ship with him. >> he was going to construct an replica of what vermeer paymented? >> that's right. a harpsichord. >> the rug. >> the wind is trying to blow my sheet. >> well, this certainly is not

easy. >> this is very ingenious. >> that is where the painting is in buckingham palace. >> >> you use this device and you become a machine, i am giving an alternate version of vermeer. >> oh, my god. >> i think i disturbed quite a lot of people. >> we are maybe ago film? >> yeah, i definitely would -- yeah, i would find something else to do right now. >> rose: joining me, tim jenison and teller, the silent half of the magic duo penn & teller who directed the movie. i am pleased to have them at this table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: and congratulations. >> thank you very much. >> rose: how did pen, it was penn's idea. >> yes, penn and tim were having dinners? >> they are friends. >> they are longstanding friends and penn said, tim, tell me something about something that has nothing to do with show by. i don't. to think about show

business tonight and tim told him about this fascinating quest he was on and penn said, stop right now, this has got to be a movie. so penn's vein attempt to get away from show business for an evening flew out the window and the two who of them went and pitched the idea to possible funders, but now, you know, if you are a possible funder and somebody says i would like to make a movie about a guy sitting and making a painting you are going, uh-huh, that is drawing a crowd. >> rose: and to say i can paint a painting myself, perhaps, as good as in some ways one of the great masters. >> sounds unlikely. >> rose: it certainly does. >> well, a nobody knew if it would work at that point. >> rose: but you believed. >> i did. i thought, you know, i had done this preliminary experiment where i just copied a photograph and i thought, you know, the it was same thing, if i could do that i could paint aver. >> rose: why did you want, aver mere. >> a,er have mere. >> i thought it might have an effect on art history, i may be

present at a historical event, and i was fascinated, you know, partly, when i was -- i grew up in a house of artists my parent are both painters and i am a magician so the 48 angle of mirrors is one of the principles of magic so it was in my purview from the beginning. >> rose: so tell me the story. >> well, i was interested in -- in -- i am a computer graphics guy. >> rose: and well-known one. >> and i had seen the vermeers in a room, you see it in a museum and it sticks out, it speaks to you, it says i might be a photograph, you know. and so i got interested. >> rose: it is that good. >> yes, it is too good, inhumanly good and i realized as a video guy that what vermeer was painting there is really not possible because the eye doesn't see what he painted, it is the way a camera sees but it is not the way a human sees. and so i knew there had to be a trick, a technique that he could have traced the colors, not only

the shapes but trace the colors, and that's what got me going on it and one day it occurred to me. >> rose: what is the difference in the way an eye sees it and a camera sees? >> sees it. >> a rhetta has a lot of processing going on before it even hits your brain and it is sort of a contrast thing and when you look at a white wall we see it as a white wall but a camera sees it as infinite shades maybe from off-white to almost black and that's the way vermeer painted it, he painted it accurately, the shadows and you just can't see it and if you can't see it you can't paint it. >> rose: so what did you do? >> well it occurred to me in the bathtub juan night if i took a mirror and was able to see my subject reflected in the mirror and the canvas that i am painting down on the table, right at the edge of the mirror i can see those colors right next to each other, and if they are right next to each other you can do this very accurate comparison, that's one thing our eyes are good at is comparing two colors that are right next to each other and by having this mirror in just the right spot i

could move my head and, you know, go from one part of the painting to the other just matching -- >> rose: to get it right. >> yes. and it tells you instantly if it is right or wrong. >> it is sort of the same principle of getting payment chips at this paint chip, you know when you have it right against the wall and this enabled him to hold the canvas against the subject. >> with the help of a mirror. >> yes. >> it is a simple idea but works. >> rose: we will talk a lot about this story, but what has been the response to artists, cur areas, curators, people who spent a lifetime trying to understand vermeer or trying to understand painting. >> vermeer's history is kind of a black hole there is almost no biographical data about vermeers. >> but people write thick books about him regardless and fill them with stuff and this kind of flies in the face of this stuff so you would expect it to be controversial, so far everybody has been very, very nice about it. there is an art historian who

claims that vermeer imagined the whole thing and somebody asked him about this film and he said,, you know, it is pretty unbelievable this guy didn't know how to paint and he painted a vermeer and, you know, i expect there will be a lot of controversy. >> so could, could you fool somebody who was a serious art student, but didn't know anything about your backgroud? >> no. >> how would they know the difference? >> the closer you get, the easier it is to tell way i don't really know how to operate a paintbrush. the brush strokes in the vermeer are elegant but you have to get down to a microscope to see them. >> they are very fine, and when you get down with a microscope and look at my brush strokes they are just hesitant and tentative and, you know, i didn't really know what i was doing. >> because it was his first painting. >> well, the first thing you painted -- >> yes,. >> my father, i was just copying a photograph but this is the first time i painted "in color" from actual life.

and it is actually my first oil painting .. >> and you think this might change what? >> i -- when david hawk in his book secret knowledge, there was a big, a big controversy, because david hock any seemed to have all the principles right but hadn't made that final connection of how you get the tones and the colors exactly right. you know, he suggested these, the camera obscure of mirrors to get, to project an image on a surface, and when you project an image on a surface, it is easy to trace the shapes. >> rose: yes. >> but it is impossible to trace the colors unless you have something like this device. so tim is the missing link in that theory, and now i think, and probably people who said before, well, david hockney was just speculating they now have to step back and say he was speculating but tim actually demonstrated that it is possible. >> rose: take a look at a couple of things i want to see from the film, this is when tim

tested his theory about doing this oil painting of his father-in-law as he mentioned. >> >> to test this i propped up a high school photograph of my father-in-law on the table, i put a bees of masonite down here to paint on and set a small mirror at a 45-degree angle, and for the first time in my life i did just what vermeer may have done, i picked up some oil paints on a brush. and vermeer's camera this would be a projection un, a lens is projecting this image but to show the actual mirror painting process we are using a photograph here. you can see the reflection and then there is my canvas down here. >> and right at the em of the mirror i can see both things. at once. i am just going to apply paint and either darken or lighten the paint, and so it is the same exact color and at that point, when it is exactly the same color, the edge of the mirror

will disappear. all right. and i am an idiot at this. i have done this process exactly twice in my life before. what i am doing is moving my head up and down, so that i can see first the original and then my canvas. i am looking at both things at the same time. right on the forehead you can see to the vermeer matches because you can't really see the edge of the mirror, that is your clue you have matched the paint exactly, it is not subject if the, it is objective. i am a human piece of human photographic film at that point. >> rose: what if this had been you but not your hand but a great painter's hand the? someone with exquisite fracking skills. >> i suspect they would do a lot better job. >> rose: okay. but how good a job? >> you know, i think they could paint aver mere, a, vermeer that

would be indistinguishable and i am anxious to see what people do with this, now that the film is out people can try this themselves and i am interested in people if it helps people learn to paint if this is a good educational tool. i don't know. >> rose: all right. take a look, i am going to show a lot of clips from here. this is you on seeing the vermeers in person. take a look. >> term went around the world studying vermeer. they called it painting with light. vermeer painted with light. you can't paint with light you have to paint with paint, and so what they are really talking about is this vermeer mill similar attitude that it is just -- you see it from across the room and it looks like a slide, it looks like a color slide of kodachrome.

.. >> seeing the vermeers in person was a revelation. it reinforced to me that i was on the right track. that what i was seeing was an accurate representation of the color in that room. i just had a hunch that there must be a way to actually get the colors accurate with mechanical means, some way you could do that in the 17th century. >> rose: so what has this journey been like for you? >> i mean you are right there. >> when you do a documentary, because it was my first documentary, when you are doing a documentary you have this mass of undifferent stated experience, we went this all fascinated with the vermeer technology and we originally called this vermeer's edge and thought this would be a movie

about vermeer but the more we looked at it, the more we went into it, the more we realized it really is a story about ted. >> rose: yes, it is. >> it is about a person who has such determination and such intelligence that he can stick with it beyond what any, you know, what any ordinary person would do. >> rose: yes. >> and solve problems that are exciting. >> rose: you come from a house of painters. >> i come from a house of painters and in magic, and. >> rose: and places other people have never been. >> well i got to be in places -- >> rose: as i mentioned -- >> we were in the rieks museum. >> it was great. creeping around. >> and tell me about the vermeer and the queen. >> well, we wanted to shoot, you know, like there and looking at some paintings. >> rose: yes, one. >> and she has one have mere. >> rose:. >> approximately. people quibble about it. but, you know, so the producer kept contacting them and saying we would like to shoot here.

>> well, are you with the bbc? >> no. and are you independent? they don't like independents for some reason. >> rose: right, right. >> i don't know. and we just couldn't get permission but finally, which got a phone call and said if you just want to come in and look, you know, you can do that and we went in -- >> rose: you had some people and lobbying for you in the meantime to say these are serious people they are not going to steal the painting. >> i don't know. you know, they thought da well one of them is a musician. >> right. in fact, after we left, charlie's phone raping and they said, we have some questions about mr. jenison's equipment she said what equipment, those goggle were they some kind of james bond device? and they thought we were casing the joint, i don't know but it was fun. >> 30 minutes, yes, 30 minutes staring at that painting and it was so different than i expected it was just -- >> it was dazzling. >> so much more detail, and the

colors were totally different than the reproductions i had seen and when i saw that detail, i knew that my machine was not going to work. >> i was not seeing that in my apparatus, so i had to redesign it. >> rose: redesign and make it better. >> yes, i had to add something that wasn't there and i had to fix the problem. >> rose: this is chuck, a friend of this program talking about the greatness of vermeerer mere, here it is. >> well, i mean under apparitions, if painting is magic his are the most magical. >> . they are like they blew on the canvas in some incredible, divine breath of air, just blew them there, and if you ever have any question as to whether or not a vermeer was head and shoulders above his contemporaries, a show they had at the met who had vermeer and the hulk all. >> and all of these people if you looked at the paintings across the galleries, his were

like they were lit from within and they are all about light and hulk would paint individual bricks and if you continued the bricks you would knew how many bricks they are but with vermeer you had a situation that were like bricks, but truly amazing painter, and, i know how paintings get made and i have no idea how he made those paintings. >> rose: that is a perfect line. you have an idea. >> well, if anybody should understand it, he should, i mean, he makes these beautiful photo realistic images, but, you know, if you were an art student and saw vermeer, you would want to give up. >> rose: and say i can't do that. >> right exactly. >> rose: on m my best day i will never do anything like that. >> and it was beyond human capability. >> rose: and you think it was. >> i think so i think he had -- >> >> rose: the speculation about this, before you did it that somehow -- there was the always a camera thing which i will show

in a moment. about his greatness, chuck said he was unbelievable. >> well, i think people resort to vagueness, they say, vermeer was a genius. >> rose: exactly. >> beethoven, mozart. >> almost my time someone uses the word genius i mistrust it yes vermeer was a genius and bach was a genius and they had techniques and ways of getting there as human beings and when tim talks about the retina really to do the kind of work that vermeer does, you need either a mechanical aid or you need to be an alien with a different kind of retina, so saying genius is saying vermeer was an alien it is a way of throwing up your hands. >> rose: or he had different kind of eyes than anybody else or something. >> yes, that is jolly unlikely. >> rose: yes indeed. so i told you we went and did this thing in 1996, it was, and with me is arthur, jr., he was a curator and vermeer scholar on

how we know that vermeer used a camera obskura. >> they were very popular and recommended for artists in the early 17th century, the only way you can tell is by examining the paintings and seeing optical qualities in these paintings you suspect wouldn't have been money to him or he wouldn't have observed just with, with nature's vision all by itself and one of the qualities that you see in a camera on secure are a, it is very much like i you had, obskura, like if you had a photograph you focused on one area and the foreground was not focused, because of the depth of field, you would see these little circles of confusion in unfocused areas, well in the girl with the red hat that is exactly what you see, these are wonderfully diffused very liquid strokes that sort of define that, and exactly the qualities that you see in a camera obskura in an unfocused portion of that image.

>> rose: okay. explain this to me. >> well, arthur whelock, you know, he sees those photographic qualities. >> rose: yes. >> but apparently until i thought of this mirror, the theory -- the strongest people have believed most that vermeer used optics was that he would just look at an image on a screen and then turn and start to paint, and be inspired by the look of that image and nobody really had a solution to go from that to the canvas. >> rose: right, right. with the eyes. >> yes. >> there was, phillip stedman did some really interesting. >> rose: right, right. >> research. >> rose: go ahead. >> well phillips stedman was an architecture professor in london and assigned his students the task of looking at six vermeer paintings and figuring out exactly the dimensions of the room and all did this with architectural geometry and he said okay now find the placement

of the artist's eye and he said now imagine a lens at the placement of the artist's eye and tell me what kind of projection would be against the back wall if he was using a camera obskura. >> low and be hold the paintings matched all of those so he proved geometrically that he was using at least a camera obscura. >> tell me one more time about a camera obscura. >> i am not sure i understand this. >> it is just a means in latin it means darkroom and you are in a booth, a dark booth and a lens installed in one wall and that projects just like a video projector on to the back wall so it is upside down and backwards but a lot of people think you should just be able to payment on top of that image, and that is what does not work, you can trace lines. so i ended up using the lens of a camera obscura so it is still

making the the projection there and had two mirrors to make the thing work, a mirror to project that image into a second mirror where you do the actual comparison and so that was the trick it took to make a hand made photograph, and that is what they are. you know, we are looking at color photographs that are 350 years old. >> rose: wow. >> other than deciding that your focus had to be tim's story what was the other challenging thing in making this? >> well, the audience had to understand a lot. >> >> rose: exactly tomplt follow this little -- it is a romantic little journey. >> a guy sets his sights on this idea, i can paint aver mere, but we need to know how lard it is, the things we have been discussing here and we need to understand things like the camera obscura, the cameras he is using and all of these things need to come in the right sequence so they just sort of flow in there and you don't feel like you are being taken to school every night and we even used some of tim's own programs to use sort of an amusing

illustrations of that. >> >> rose: it got emotional for you? >> yes, i can't explain what happened that day. other than it was just like the culmination of such a long, hard process that, what happened just before that scene, farley was interviewing me and she said, okay, she talked about the varnish, i talked about the verist and the last steps of the painting and said have you just taken the opportunity to stand back and look at the finished painting today? >> and i stood back and it just all the effort kind of washed over m me and i was finished an, you know, i did what i set out to do and it was a great feeling. and. >> you know, in retrospect i am so glad i was in the right place at the right time to do this project, even though it was extremely hard.

it was very brat filing. >> rose: and how does it change your life? >> i don't know. it is too early to tell. >> i know i don't want to paint anymore. get that out of the way. >> you don't want to be a master forger, do you? >> rose:. >> no. i think it is, you know, did it create or stimulate a curiosity. >> oh, yes. i learned so much about the renaissance and holland and the dutch golden age and now, you know, i have been doing all of that research and i see this idea probably happen before vermeer, so i am trying to trace it back and figure out who -- >> rose: the goldfinch is over at frick, that is what the book is about. >> yes. and he the painter knew vermeer. >> yes. >> but he lost everything over most of his paintings. >> yes, he was blown up in the thunderclap, the big explosion.

>> rose: so are you going to make another documentary? >> if. >> rose: if you find another subject like this. >> if another subject like this comes along. >> rose: you are spoiled. >> no. my next thing is directing the tempest in a live performance with art in boston at the lobe. >> rose: you have done in before. >> starting, but starting in vegas, thomas by waite. >> it has been quite a little show, and penn & teller continues to -- >> we play at the rio in las verify and we. >> he vegas and we tour. >> wrote do you live? >> i live in las vegas, because commuting to vegas five nights a week would be old. >> rose: are you pretty much year-round? >> yes. we take -- we take a week off here or there. >> or flying over to the england and doing a few weeks in the spring. >> rose: how do you explain the enduring quality of penn & teller. >> we love what we do so much we work more than we should.

>> rose: i am a favorite of that, by the way. >> the tell petion is a story about a magician giving up magic, a thing i cannot possibly con steve of, because it is so much a part of the core of my being to do that or this or any, any of these things, why would you ever stop? into why didn't you become a painter? >> >> i don't know. i was almost a latin teacher. i was almost a latin teacher. when i was a kid magic caught ahold of me that just didn't let go and i thought magic was just such a low form, such a low -- essentially a form regarded with contempt by much of show business that i thought, it would be a good thing to get into it because maybe i could do a little better with it. >> rose: congratulations to both of you. >> thank you. >> rose: in this is really -- >> i mean you are breaking new ground here and it is always interesting to see that and it is about something that is so --

has passed the test of time. >> yes. this is an exciting part now, the movie is going out into the world, you know,. >> rose: it is opening for release at -- >> lincoln plaza and angelica. >> and. >> rose: january 31st. >> and where? >> and in los angeles at the arc light hollywood and at the landmark -- what is the. >> west la tim's vermeer opens in limited release on friday, january 31st. congratulations. >> so wonderful to be on your show. >> rose: thank you. >> >> rose: thank you and congratulations. remarkable. thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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