>> rose: welcome to the program, on this presidents' day we talk to kenneth mack, jon meacham, ronald caro, michael beschloss and doris kearns goodwin, about the american presidency. what it is like to be president, who is good at it and how history sees them. >> the presidency has changed in the last 20 years i think in an important way that is that for, amount 20 years ago presidents were pretty influential for most of their term, now i am almost to the point where i think that unless you are a prewho is probably in your first term and controls both houses of congress, your time is going to be fairly grim, and if that is true, then probably, you know, being around members of congress and twisting arms in the lbj or fdr fashion might help at the edges but it is not likely to be decisive. >> rose: on this presidents' day, a look at the american

presidency, next. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> we have got to go a better job of getting across that is america is freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of enterprise, and

freedom is special and rare. it is fragile, it needs protection. >> rose: on this presidents' day we celebrate george washington's birthday and u.s. presidents past and present, here are some of the enduring words from our country's leaders through history. >> the great fundamental issue now before our people, if the american people can govern themselves, to rule and control themselves, i believe they are, my opponents do not. >> first of all, let me assert my >> and so my fellow americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you ca can cor your -- can do for your country. [ applause ]

>> now our generation of americans has been called on to continue the unending search for justice within our own borders. >> there is nothing wrong with america that cannot be cured by what is right with america. >> there is not a liberal america, and a conservative america, there is the united states of america. >> there is not a black america and a white america and latino america, an asian american america, there is the united states of america. >> rose: let me begin by introducing you to a distinguished group of historians, kenneth mack is a professor law at harvard, and creation of the civil rights lawyer, jon meacham is executive editor of random house and thomas jefferson, the art of power author among other books, i do not caro, the fourth volume in the series the years of

lyndon johnston, and michael beschloss, brave a players and how they changed america and other books, doris kearns goodwin will join us later in the program from san francisco, the author, author of this the bully pulpit, theodore roosevelt and taft and the golden age of journalism, i am pleased to have all of them here as we have the presidency who inabouted this office, what it means, what is the toll and how we measure greatness, i will begin with michael beschloss. what kind of person is attracted to the presidency? >> now a daze, nowadays it is a shrinking number and one that is willing to go through many ways a tortious experience which was not the case for most of american history so the first thing i think to say is that we are not opening this office to as many people who would be great presidents as we used to earlier. you know, it is now 24 hours a day, you are expected to be on all the time, jon kennedy in the summer of 1961 was on vacation at hyannis port, the

berlin wall went up. there was an inquiry at the press office what does the president think about the berlin wall going up in spite of the fact we said he it would not happen, a week was allowed to come by before kennedy had to give a response to that, now you are down 24 hours a day and have to have responses to almost everything, it just takes a very different kind of personality from what it used to. >> rose: jon, what do you think? you are just working on a bush 41, thomas jefferson, andrew jackson and others. >> i think that am byrnes people want to be president, is at the totally obvious, am byrnes people .. >> and i think that is always true. >> there is a spectrum i think with a lot of the people we have written about that require, they have appetites for the affection and respect of other people, the basic unit of commerce in

politics is i want to make you trust me just enough to get a vote so that i have your proxy until the next election or the next issue, so everything is transactional and i think that takes a toll on people, if you are even a remotely normal human being. having every exchange in your life be transactional is debilitating in some ways, some people find it innervating, i think bill clinton finds it quite thrilling and i think lind don jon, i will go back and lyndon johnson -- >> and did not feel alive unless they were doing doing it. >> so i think it has to be people i would argue that are missing something, that the public arena fills. >> i mean, it is very different for each president, you think of richard nixon, a very private man, essentially, bill clinton a very public person. >> well there is a great dissertation to be done and programs has already been done why into veterans do as well as

they do in american politics, and you any recently you have richard nixon, jimmy carter,. >> rose: woo woodrow wilson. >> president obama. >> woodrow wilson was more of a missionary, driven by his zeal. >> rose: someone also said anyone who wants to be prepared and go through what it takes to be president is not qualified to be president. [laughter.] >> right. >> rose: bob what do you think in terms of one man who lived with a giant ambition to be president? you know, lyndon johnson sort of asked your question to himself three nights after he became president, after kennedy's assassination, his advisors were writing his first speech and advised him not to take on civil rights because it was a lost cause, a noble cause but a lost cause you know what he said? what the hell is the presidency for, then? and he took on that cause. so i think you have, you know, basically there is a spectrum, you have some presidents who want to be president so they can say they were president. you have some presidents who want to change the world, and i

think in the last 100 years we have seen that whole range of presidents. >> rose: yes. exactly right because you think some people -- it is just the next step in their ambition. >> but the ambition cannot be entirely on display, i said something about lyndon johnson wanting to have always been -- always wanted to be president, which i got to some extent from bob's great biography and i saw ladybird johnson not long after that and she said you are absolutely wrong he never wanted to be president, and she knew that wasn't true but it was so much -- this is what you do you are ambitious as hell but at the same time you have to deny it. >> rose: every senate looks in the mirror and sees a president. >> >> rose: you knew someone at an early age, barack obama as a student at harvard law school, did anything anybody the in the class say, hey among us is a future president? >> no one said there is a future president, but many people said, among us is a future public

figure you could see it. >> what could you see? >> you could see his affect on people. it was very different than other people at harvard law school, it is a very competitive place, bright individuals, ambitious individuals, individuals with large personalities but there was something different about obama and everybody could see it. >> but could you define what was different about him? >> people listened to him. >> rose: he listened to them? >> he listened to them and had a way of receding their own views and restating the views of their opponents and bringing people together, but he also had a way of seeming i think wiser than the rest of us. >> rose: really? >> >> rose: wise but not necessarily smarter? >> >> both wiser and smart but more wise than smart. >> and he was older, at least the impression was he was older. >> the ah, the impression was because he was only two years older than i was and two years older than most of us but it seemed like he was ten years

older, that was the way in which he was regarded. >> rose: i have talked to people who said whether that was because he just gave off a sense of leadership i mean this was true about bill bradley when he was a rhodes scholar about bill clinton that an early age there is a person who has the possibilities of being president and programs wants to, but no one in a sense thought of this person at the time and said, you know, not just that he has the ability but that he wants it. >> well, it was hard to know for him, to know what he wanted. it was hard for everybody to know what he wanted. he wanted to go back to chicago, and he wanted to be a public figure. i think beyond that -- >> rose: i am demand ago little bit too much here. >> with lyndon johnson you didn't want to wonder what he wanted because he told everybody, he said he was going to be united states one day when he was working on a yard gang in 16 and 17 in breakfast and break for lunches in the deserted texas hill country a band of seven or eight guys building a

road, and he would say, i am going to be president of the united states one day. they all laughed at him. >> rose: there is also this, some people who want to be president that do have a great need for affection, i think doris said about lyndon johnson at one point that his political skills were a surrogate for love and acceptance. >> yes. i think that is really right. and you see it in the white house, you see the hurt that the criticism, as the vietnam criticism mounts, you see how incredibly sense if the he, sensitive when you listen to him on the tapes, they criticize me for putting, lifting my eagles by the beagles by the ears, you have to understand it doesn't hurt them. it is for their pleasure. [laughter.] >> only johnson would have thought that. >> he talked talks to the prime minister of great britain and is supposed to be talking about some major issue, he says you know what they are on here for? lifting my dog up by the ear, so every bit of criticism hurt. >> rose: and that is a

perennial force, because 160 years before, thomas jefferson was as anguished over criticism as any modern president, and it was as visuals, if not more so. >> rose: more violence. >> and i totally agree with michael about the 24 hour cycle. it is also true that the rapid at this of communications then seemed rapid because ther there hadn't been newspapers before so the institution of partisan newspapers were, in fact, an advance at that time. >> rose: and what can you say about this old debate between experience and something else? i mean you take george bush, 41, he had a great resume to be president. i mean, everything, war hero, you know, and later leader of the party, vice president, congressman,, un, in ambassador that is like a resume -- >> right. >> he was the first sitting vice president since martin van burr recommend to succeed a sitting president, and actually he said

when he won, well, story, marty we broke the curse. >> he is, in fact, the only man to have addressed martin van burburen as marty. >> i think george herbert walker bush in many ways embodies what we are talking about, deeply competitive, his mother expected them to climb all the trees in the yard in grove lane in greenwich and just knew they were supposed to, that was the expectation. >> rose: you could not, not do it. >> you could not, not do it, so he was driven by, at once, this ambition to do well, but then not to talk about it, not talk about himself. so he had these somewhat disinformant traditions, disso informant traditions which is being number one, but if you get to be number one, don't tell anybody you are number one .. talk about the other guy. and i would argue that his

charisma in many ways which is not a word we often associate with george h.w. bush is responsible for him having been president because he became president one thank you note at a time. >> rose: oh, yes. >> one personal connection at a time, over that long period. he only won three elections on his own two, house races in houston, texas and the presidency of the united states. >> rose: but he thad 1,000 friends. >> >> just end less, end less, and they were spread out, and that was his base, the bush base was a personal network. >> rose: i am interested in the question of whether there is no particular training to be president. i mean, we saw the president obama had difficult problems with the economy, which he wanted to be a domestic president it seemed to me but he could say most of his objectives in foreign policy. >> yes. >> and the previous president and advisors had a ton of experience in foreign policy, rumsfeld and cheney. >> yes. and one of the things that faces anyone who is president is the

unexpected i mean you don't know the context when obama first came to prominence, it didn't seem as though the things that were going to face him were the things that actually did face him, the financial crisis was, you know, no one knew that was going to happen when he began his campaign, but suddenly he is president and his job to -- >> rose: let me move to in having experience and different times of background, what qualities make a great president? from all the presidents you guys have known or studies, what makes a great president? you know, one of them you have to say is compassion, because this is a country where it is not a country of complete justice, it is a country in which there always has been a large measure of injustice, which resists until today so when you have a lyndon johnson said, poverty, i grew up in poverty, i am going to make war on poverty, you feel that, you know, when he was a boy, you feel him saying, i always wanted

the ham and egg sandwich, that was a dime but i always took the egg sandwich, that was a nickable, he gets to be president .. and he is counseling with theodore storn son, kennedy's great speechwriter over his first speech and storn son is saying, war on poverty is a little too strong but johnson wants it, i wrote in my book he says he knew what his enemies were and war was the way to destroy them, so it is really important that you understand what a country needs in terms of justice. i think that that is really important. you also need to know what it means in terms of leadership. if you want to be president and not prepared to lead -- >> it is easy to enunciate and make great speeches and a lot harder to fight for the things that you he nudges evaluate. i would say that is what different states and scales presidents. >> i think, if there is one thing, theme, i would argue, compare and contrast and attack, is great presidents know how to

make virtues of their vices. it is their -- rather intuitive. >> leaders in general. >> either intuitively or consciously wit aware, the bankr of the united states, andrew jansson is trying to destroy the second bank, he vetoes the recharter, nicholas bitable the head of the bank goes to war with jackson unwisely .. and financial comply sister is going on and unfolding in the country. jackson is seen as a crazy duelist which he was, had the virtue of being true but he was seen as being hot tempered and he was and that's a personal vice, what does he do? a delegation comes into his office there on the second floor of the white house and he pound the table, he says why did you come here for money? i don't have any money, nicholas bittle has the money, go to him and they scurry out and the moment the door shuts he turns to andrew donaldson, his functional chief of staff and says, didn't i

manage them well? >> he knew that they thought he was a madman, and so he played that part to send them away fearful of him. he knew what he was doing. and i think that throughout people who make virtues of their vices, franklin roosevelt was not the most straightforward of human beings, i am a juggler and never left my left hand know what my right hand is doing, did not work out very well in his marriage but worked out very well when preparing for war. >> rose: roosevelt, maybe someone else about a second class sitting in first class. >> holm stead. >> yes. that was and i think .. none of us would disagree with that and one thing roosevelt has and gets to your question as well, psychological self-confidence, because if you have a person that needs president and everything that happens to him or her is, you know, either takes away from your sense of

self and self-esteem or adds to it, then you are in a situation almost like nixon where you are almost compelled to fight your enemies just because you think they are your enemies like lbj in the late 196 fits, some of the strength of his feeling about wanting to escalate in vietnam had as much to do with not giving his hecklers and his enemies a victory, and that came from that sensitivity, so if you have someone like roosevelt who for all sorts of reasons was a very self-confident person, that is helpful and saw it in dwight eisenhower and i think you saw it in george h.w. bush and i think that element you also see in president obama, i think he is not emotionally subsequent up in sort of the personal consequences of every political battle he fights. >> rose: if you read any profile of david rim any being the most recent, you said the temp programs and patient and detach. >> yes. >> and thinking in the

long-term, right now we are having a beef amount a bunch of things, gun control, immigration, and he is someone who thinks in the long-term. he wants to get legislation out of congress this year but he might not. maybe he can do it by an administrative action, he is thinking that way. >> rose: well my interesting question amount that, he had the famous quote about he has the water and the water keeps going and that is history and everybody has to pass it off to someone else, and it comes now at the beginning of a difficult second term 2013 was a very tough year for the president, as he acknowledges and now beginning to think well this job is a lot different than what i thought it was and all you can do in a sense is take the hand off and put the oar in the water while you are there, is that a sense that the recognition maybe people who seek this office think there is more you can do than you end up being able to do? >> sometimes.

and sometimes it is the opposite i would say with fdr, with fdr it is more the opposite. somebody who was seen as a little bit of a dilettante before he was elected and suddenly he becomes this figure of world historical important, so i think it depends on context. >> who is the most highly rated president who did not have a war or a great depression to define them? >> i would argue jackson, as a two term nonwar president, jackson and clinton. >> rose: and. >> and grant. >> rose: that had the level of what? near great? >> it would not surprise me that my screw of jackson is precisely that. >> rose: near great or great. >> i would say near great. including washington and lincoln, without slavery and the removal of native americans, which is like saying, besides that mrs. lincoln how was the play? i do think that he was

the architect of a kind of american popism that ultimately, popism that expanded the definition of what it means to be an american. >> when you look at the great presidents, lincoln, washington, fdr, you almost say they all had a war. eisenhower i think -- >> >> rose: may loom even larger. >> this is what historians should do and we don't do it enough which is give credit to presidents who prevent crises as much as we do to those who meet them and deal with them well, because in retrospect, we now know something we couldn't have known at the time, we didn't have the hindsight, we didn't have the sources at the time, which is that about three occasions eisenhower prevented wars in vietnam, escalations in korea, even a nuclear confrontation a few times but that is something people couldn't know at the time and give him credit. >> rose: what about truman? >> truman in that sense? >> yes. >> truman was the author of the korean war which we do not look

well at history and doesn't count well for him, luckily for him, you always look at it in the larger sense and at least i, and i think no one here could disagree that more important to know amount truman and national security was that this was the guy who was the architect of the strategy that led amount 12 presidents ultimately win the cold war under george bush 41, we knew what the policies were in 1953, but only here we are 61 years later we know with total hindsight that america won. >> rose: also through a, how about truman on civil rights there is a thing not to be denied. >> he was in the military. >> desegregation of the military, poonlts a civil rights commission, he was ambiguous amount the accepting the recommendations but the first president to come out openly for civil rights and fdr -- >> refused to support an anti-lynching bill. >> did not support anti-lynching bill. >> at great risk to his abilityl

rights and split the democratic party. >> and confederate mother who refused to sleep in lincoln's bed when she came to the white house. >> rose: truman offered one of the great definitions of the presidency in retirement he left notes about other presidents rank, ranking them and one, he was talking about jackson, he said, jackson looked after the little guy who has no pull, and that is what a president is supposed to do. looking after the little guy who has no pull. >> rose: let me throw out two names in terms of just assessment assessment of presidential abl abilities and t it says amount the office and about them. ronald reagan. >> ronald reagan in regrow expect, i think we have to say if ronald reagan were not president the 1980s, the cold war would not have ended when it did and sure would not have ended under as favorable circumstances which were a circumstance that harry truman only could have dreamt of, he homed it would happen but i am not so sure he was sure of it. >> rose: that kennedy -- >> definite definitively and that gets back to what i was

saying amount self-confidence. reagan was we talked about introverts, one of the introverted people to get, to be trea but he did not get emotionally engaged so once he became president he could say a lot of people may say i am a warmonger and people think this is dangerous by i think we can end the cold war in this generation if we challenge the soviets, that was a se gear minority opinion at that time, even in the republican party, yet you have the psychological self-confidence, absolutely, especially but that kind of counsel let him do it and succeeded. >> you know, when reagan became president, everybody in new york at dinner parties and all were making fun of him, they had been in the white house, he didn't take and get all the -- so i was trying to write something about state of the union speech, lyndon johnson, i had never seen a state of the union speech so i got a press ticket to the gallery and, you know, it is so dramatic, the supreme court justices come in, the ambassadors and join chiefs and

all of a sudden the speaker said, mr. president, the president of the united states and this figure comes through the door with this air of command, and i said, oh, everyone in new york has this guy wrong. >> well, he so benefitted from being underestimateed by new york. >> rose: which in california too when he first got elected. >> you know, the best thing you can have is for your opponent to underestimate your abilities. >> and the other great skill which we didn't talk about was his theatrical at this. >> .. >> people say how can you be an actor and do these jobs? i don't know how you could not be an actor. >> rose: and be a president. and that's why lou called his book the -- >> yes, exactly and roosevelt said to orson welles, you and i are the two greatest actors in america, not so important during the age when there wasn't television and even photography, but now there is, and that is one problem for instance a

president like lbj has, lbj would have given anything to have that kind of presence and toability to give a speech, sometimes he succeeded marvelously like he did on voting rights in 1965 but too often i remember watching lbj as a child, i was antonin years old and the face that almost never moved, it reminded me of a cartoon character called clutch cargo, where only the mouth moved, and johnson and others have shown, you know, sort of had in his mind he wanted to look like almost a 19th century idea of what a president looks like. >> rose: how does this president, barack obama see the presidency today? in terms of conversations with you or with friends or people who talk to him? i know he needs with his stores and that is one thing but to be a friend is something different. >> i think he sees the presidency as an incredibly hard job, things that present

obstacles that you just never anticipated. he didn't anticipate that he was going to have the kind of year he just had but he had it and he has got to respond, just kind of day to day, and reset his clock, his equilibrium and i think that is how he sees it, it is just a series of unexpected crises you have got to negotiate while at the same time thinking about your long-term object it was and how do you make progress towards them. >> rose: how about jimmy carter as well, a one term president. >> had courageous decisions having to do with camp david and having to do with the panama canal and took on what many have said wait until the second term. >> right. and i think we have to give carter credit for that and as time goes on i think we will. it is a little bit like what happened to jon kennedy in 1961, privately, people said to kennedy, you really should do civil rights, you should do a nuclear test ban, both of which he thought were a great idea, he

said, can't do it until my second term, there are too many conservatives who are democratic committee chairmen from the south, in the senate and the house by 1963 the political environment had changed, allowed him to do that, had it not happened, he would have been assassinated in 19 sticks three without two of his main accomplishments because he would have been delaying everything until 1965. >> rose: jimmy carter, let me come back to jimmy carter, jon? >> well, president carter remarkable victory was the beginning when you look back on it, of the changing democratic party for cash. >> rose: for a southerner to be president. >> for, just baptists were southern presidents. >> rose: they wouldn't elect a southern methodist. >> no, no he was from north carolina. >> we had a president from your crowd? >> no, i don't think so. >> is there any water? >> i think that president carter

the classic thing to say well the post presidency has been so great. >> i mean he hates that. >> and he should. >> he thinks it is the biggest insult, it is the great, he is the greatest post president in history. >> and he should, but what -- you know he was rationally responding to data, and i think that is something. >> as an engineer. >> right. one of the things about president obama that makes me a little nervous, it is a rational response to find this incredibly difficult, nearly impossible job, but that is what you are paid for and the great presidents are the one that actually enjoy being president and i honestly don't think, my own sense of president carter is he did not enjoy the job,. >> rose: he didn't enjoy politics. >> which is a strange career choice when you think about it. >> well, that goes back to my initial inquiry in what kind of people talk about it. >> rose: doris, we are talking about the presidency, doris, how are you? >> i am good. >> rose: you are in california so, therefore, we are catching a

little bit later, but we are talking about before you arrived, the idea of what kind of qualities serve a president, what kind of experience serves a president, what time of temperament steferbls a president and who had these in the best combination. talk a little bit, because the more recent book is amount theodore roosevelt and taft, what william, not taft, but what theodore roosevelt had and his personality that made him to be the kind of president that he was. >> well, i think just to follow up on what was just said i think he loved every moment of the presidency with every fiber of his being, he loved being in the center of action, his daughter alice says he would like to be the corpse at the funeral and the bride at the wedding but he said every day he couldn't wait to go on the job, he loved connecting with people on those train trips around the country

if he would stop at villages and gets gives gifts and say heavens and delight i love this continually and in the contrast taft had almost every other quality, a great number 2 person and was loyal, he was decent, gave recommendation explanations for what he did but didn't love politics and felt nervous giving speeches and when he was on train he would have to remind him go wave to the people now, it wasn't an instick if the, instinctive thing, i agree what was said, joy in the presidency is great, it is a tough job. >> like theodore roosevelt said this is the greatest job in the world, who wouldn't love this. >> rose: and that was bill clinton. >> absolutely bill clawment. >> rose: and basically has had to pull him out. >> his last weeks in office he said he literally slept as little as possible so he could have the maximum number of hours being president. >> rose: and one of his most important jobs -- >> on the other hand, to have a

lyndon johnson who referred to the white house as a from his. he pitied himself for the problems -- >> rose: in a way it is a prison. >> and they feel that. >> harry truman used the same term. >> crown jewel in the penal system. >> when you look at a president and you have the tapes you can hear it minute by minute, it is one problem after another, one problem is israel and the suez canal and then the federal reserve and then inflation and then vietnam and back to israel, and each case you have to make a decision, it is you, you know, so you really say, goll, it is an incredible not only compartmentalization but a will to decide, a will to power that makes a great president ongdz, it is if the presidents feel as lincoln did, as teddy radios velts and fdr it is a job that is stretching their talent to the absolute fullest and making a difference in the lives of people they get through those tough days and they know they

have been given a chance very few people in the world have ever been given and that makes up for everything else in those guys, i think. >> rose: with who do you think enjoyed it the most? teddy roosevelt or or bill clinton or frank. >> i would say teddy, he knew he was fulfilling and extraordinary desire to be rebelled after he died but the tenure of that civil war there is no way one could find joy in that i think teddy and fdr and during the depression he was the happy warrior, there are some just understand it is a great thing they have been given, the times were made for them and they were mailed for the times and then there is no catching them. >> rose: and also this amount president obama, the criticism about he does not do enough associating with members of congress and his own party as well as a republican party his argument has always been i do enough of it and you can't convince me that one more dinner

or playing one more round of golf with somebody would make a difference in the vote that took place on the hill. >> yeah, i think that is -- i am probably more in agreement with him on that one. he put in a substantial effort to cultivate jon boehner, and he did. and jon boehner and he almost had a budget agreement and boehner goes back to his caucus and he can't do it. >> rose: same thing is true on immigration, it looks like. >> yes. >> so as much effort he can put in, it is hard to identify more effort being productive when the other side can't bring his caucus along. >> i think the other thing you have to say, i think he would make this argument, although i haven't heard him make it is that the presidency has changed in the last 20 years, i think in an important way, which is that for about 20 years ago, presidents were pretty influential for most of their term, now i am almost to the point that i think that unless you are a president who is

probably in your first term and controls both houses of congress, your time is going to be fairly grim, and if that is true, then probably, you know, being around members of congress and twisting arms in the lbj or fdr fashion might help at the edges but the it is not likely to be decisive. >> rose: who do you think grew in office more than any other president? >> i think the quality qualities are always there of what is going to grow in the office, the attributes are there but just didn't see them because they didn't have as much experience as somebody else. lincoln, they were stunned he became such an extraordinary president and yet the internal qualities, the willingness to forget hurt, the willingness to talk to people and have people stronger around them, those always had been part of his temperament but only had seen it but he was only in the legislature and one term of congress, so i am not sure the person changes but just have been given a platform that allows the qualities as you say truman was well-read and a good

man before this and he got the chance and when he got that chance and opportunity he beckoned the call. >> rose: and this too, he had the power to make decisions. he was not afraid of decisions. >> yes, i remember once lbj told me that he envied truman's ability to make decisions and then go to sleep that night, knowing he had made a decision that could be wrong, but he had known as much as he could about it so he made it, whereas he over and over again as bob so well knows would think about the decisions he had made and not be able to sleep at night. >> and also this fact when he was face down when he had to face down macarthur he understood macarthur was a popular figure but understood that this too can go no further. >> isn't -- i would argue that the greatest example of a growth curve unfolded between the spring of 1961 and october 1962, with jon kennedy -- the bay of pigs is a disaster, and then he

comes in to october, 1962 with the possibility of armageddon and really hadn't had a meeting during the bay of pigs so what does he do in october of 1962 he con convenience the longest meeting of 13 days and gets, i think to go to doris ice, doris's point it is the essential characters of characteristics of john kennedy were there but he learned from experience and he learned from a failure and then even a large, and then even on a larger state he managed to get it out of crisis. >> and had he not -- when he came into the presidency jon is absolutely right, kennedy thought here are all of these joint chiefs and much older than than i than i am and they think this invasion of cuba, bay of pigs is a good idea who am i to differ with that and it can with can be shown they are really stupid and later he thought my judgment is better and so is my brother's bobby's and i better watch them every single minute

which he did through the missile crisis and you hear on these tapes one of the most horrifying things is, the second kennedy walks out of the room, having said that we are going to do a blockade, you hear these joint chiefs saying this is munich chrks is chamberlain, you know, he is selling us out, and if you did not have a president who was willing to stand up to supposed expertise, you would have had a disaster, which brings us to what might have happened had he lived to the time of vietnam. >> one of the great presidential lines is gentlemen let's now take a break for dinner. >> the cubans shoot down and american u2 plane and the united states says if they do this we are going to invade, we are going to bomb and you hear, and someone comes in and hands a note to mcnamara and they say they shot down the plane and from around the table you, we said we were going to invade, we said we are going to bomb and now we have to do it and you feel this wave of let's do this, and kennedy says, gentlemen

let's take a break now for dinner and we will come back and talk about the missiles in turkey. >> the presidents also learn from history as well as experience and you know what book kennedy read not long before the missile crisis? barbara talked to him -- which basically says a war can escalate quickly if you make mistakes and that was on his mind all the time, it wasn't his personal experience but if we are looking at a president, it may be someone. >> rose: barbara tuchman and ian fleming. no matter advisors. >> you know what kennedy said during the cuban missile crisis he said if we do something wrong here you know what the title of my administration is going to be? the missiles of october. >> you know, it shows that difference between the bay of pigs and the cuban missile crisis is another essential leadership at distribute which is to acknowledge errors and learn from your mistakes and changed the whole decision making structure before the

missile crisis and roosevelt after the bull run instrument and he stayed up all night he had to figure out what had gone wrong with the military policy, if you can learn then you can indeed grow, as long as you have that human what to acknowledge, i screwed up and i am going to make this different and i am going learn from it. >> rose: so why did it take him so long to fire mcclellan? >> because that was one of his weaknesses the othe other side s strengths he wanted to give him another chance, another chance until finally he realized the only way he could prevent from giving him another chance is to make a pledge to god and himself if mcclel. >> clel lan didn't take the troops at a certain point he would fire them and ultimately he fired them. >> rose: president kennedy said after the steel decision and he said my father always told me that all -- run so deep. >> and tried to cover that by saying he was only referring to steel men. that didn't work. >> rose: one of the great.

>> one of the great political pictures i think of the 20th century is the picture of eisenhower and kennedy taken from behind, at camp david, which is after the bay of pigs, kennedy who has not been particularly warm without going president eisenhower, called eisenhower and asked him to come to camp david to talk about what happened, and eisenhower asked sort of the critical war college question, he said did you have people in a room talking through the pros and cons? and kennedy sort of says, well, there was a meeting, but, blah, blah, blah, you know, sort of the dog ate my homework, mr. president kind of answer. and that moment where he reached out to his predecessor was also an acknowledgment that -- >> and modern presidents learn from this too. there was obama's decision to escalate the troop levels in afghanistan and that has been widely reported. >> rose: bob yates. >> yes all the meetings and all the contemplation, because he doesn't want to repeat the mistakes of george bush.

so each president is learning from what his predecessor did, both the good and the bad. >> or lyndon johnson and reported at the time he was reading accounts of the escalation of vietnam. >> why did johnson have such a hard time coming to grips with vietnam when he was saying and expressing all of his private doubts to people like richard russell? >> you know, part of it is something that doris said that he couldn't stand to admit defeat, he had to win, all through his life when he was in the senate and this is as far as i know a true statement when he was senate majority leader he never lost an important vote because he wouldn't call that vote until he knew he had the necessary votes to win. he all of his life he had to be the winner, he had to, you know, it is a part of this terrible insecurity, which when you talk about i don't know son and of

course when you talk about all of these presidential qualities and you say what really hurts is if you don't have that self-confidence, if you don't have that inner security, then what do you do when you think .. that is a big part of vietnam, another part of vietnam is that lyndon johnston didn't real a lot of books .. and you really say in domestic policies that doesn't hurt and he was a great -- you can see and feel what is going on. how do you really learn about the 3,000 year history of vietnam and all the invaders? how do you do that if you don't read books? >> they would make a movie to show him. >> even on the tapes at one lincoln i think to a senator and he said you don't want to be like old abe lincoln who when he retired and went back to his home in springfield, missouri, he literally said he aed no more than that. but you see sort of this -- >> in he was the architect of one of the boston historical

comparisons -- >> rose: is that true? >> i wouldn't make this up, charlie. >> rose: oh, my lord. >> one thing more comes again comul is he used history in a president george bush negatively consequential way is the metaphor for vietnam is munich, we have to stand up to the communist block. this is the test. one thing a afraid learns from history is, what met, which metaphors are accurate and not. >> all generals fight the previous war and all of that kind of stuff. >> yes and wasn't just him a whole generation that was thinking that way but it is heartbreaking to go back to those tapes when talking to russell at the beginning and instinctively he has nothing desiring him to want to go into this war and think of all of the talents he brought and i really do think historians, 50, 100 years from now will be able to look at those domestic achievements, medicare, his ability to deal with congress,

his desires, his passions for making this country a better place, for dealing with poverty, and it will be put side by side with the scar that will always be there, the scar of vietnam. >> rose: yes. >> but it is hard breaking because it is not where he wanted to, go i think of myself in that anti-vietnam war movement, hey, hey, lbj how many kids did you kill today thinking this was something he wanted to do, and askar row knows, it is so much more the complicated than that .. >> yes, you know, heartbreaking is really working on this last volume. i'm sorry to mention my own book it is a heartbreaking thing. >> rose: and by the sound of your voice, you read your books. >> thanks. it is really poig manhattan to see this man struggling with things inside himself, you know, this lack of security, this worrying about the criticism, every day, i mean imagine what it is like if we get -- i of course don't care if i get a bad review, but -- but imagine --

>> you are, you need to be emotionally self-confident. >> imagine waking up every day and picking up "the new york times" or the washington post and wondering what it is going to say about you that day. >> rose: just cancel the subscription as one president did of the new york heard tribune. i want to make sure in in conversation we mentioned all of the obviously presidents and the lessons and the training and foreign and domestic policy and the evolution and intelligence and everything. are we missing somebody who was really, really good that we don't talk much about? and history will come later to, doris? >> oh, clearly millard philmore has the best name in presidential history lac-megantic. >> i always think about when when i think why can't i find some president that won't take me seven years to write about. maybe it will be millard philmore. >> rose: did he like calvin coolidge a lot. >> he liked the packet the budget was balanced. and peace and prosperity, that one worked for him. i probably would put up james

polk who a lot of the territory that is now a part of the united states w we would not have witht polk but in the same breath and this disbeets what we are saying about ronson with the, with the two sides how did we get that territory? through a mexican-american war that was full of injustice and brutality. yao. >> rose: president obama and race. how has it affected his presidency and his becoming president? >> well, i think both positively and negatively. >> rose: that's what he says too. >> yes. without a doubt. to deny that race still is a large factor in perceptions of obama is to deny reality. there are people who will deny objectively verifiable facts like the fact he was born in hawaii. there is something about him that raises the ire of certain blocks of americans. >> rose: what do you think it is? >> it is not just the fact that he is african-american.

it is the name. it is that, you know, he is very much a world citizen. i mean, born in hawaii, lived in indonesia, after he spoke the native language in independent knees i can't, comes back to hawaii, goes to chicago, and invent himself really as an african-american along the way, i mean, that is an uncomfortable story, for americans to understand and to get their minds around. he confound all of our stereo times of race. >> .. i think it is an interesting chapter in almost a quarter century story now of some substantial minority of the question questioning the legit ma amacy of the incumbent president, began with president clinton and carried on with george w. bush and carried on with president obama. and i think -- >> almost become a standard weapon. >> right. and that is for all of the -- for all of the divisions of nixon and johnson and all the

way back to burr and hamilton, the legitimacy question is -- feels new, feels, at least more urgent in recent years. >> i agree with you jon. >> >> rose: go ahead. >> i think it has something to do with the media and the media, partisan nature of the media and everybody having their own group and not zero going over the side. >> but the animus when you think of the last presidents and you are right, there are swords and debates and duels in the old days but something since clinton which is really scary amount our country if we can't accept the person who is elected and give him a chance to be president for a while and just disagree with his ideas but not hate him and there is real hatred and there is scary in our culture with all of the recent presidents. >> rose: the president told david recommend any, some people dislike me because they don't like the idea of a flip president there are some black folks and may give him the benefit of the doubt precisely because i am a black president

there is a man that sees both sides. >> that's the story of obama. >> he is both sides. he is probably right. race works in a bunch of different ways and, in presidential politics and the people have tried to sort this out, what is obama's electorial coalition, it is very disproportionately black and brown. he turned out something like 2 million new voters, in 2008, that is how he got elected, and who are hose 2 million new voters? very disproportionately black and hispanic and asian, very disproportionately young, these are the demographics he turns out and -- >> and clearly the president obama had that notion of being the first african-american president that this is about history. >> to go way back when harrison's grand son benjamin harrison was running he didn't want anything to do with his grandfather having been there once so the song was, but then the people said to him, his grandfather's hat was too large for his head, blah, blah, blah,

blah. so we have had the harrisons we forget about them. >> but one thing -- >> rose: we don't talk enough about the harrisons. >> no. absolutely. >> you don't talk that much amount james buchanan, i used to have lunch with schlesinger sometimes and since i didn't like bush -- isn't he the worst president and he would say haven't, have yo have you forgon amount buchanan? >> rose: right. so as we close this down i would like to go around and ask this question amount the presidency. if you could give one quality to the next president, what would it be? if you could hold that he or she had that quality? >> it would be guts. when you see a president saying i am proud of the fact that when i left the presidency i was as popular as i was when i came in, that is not someone i would want to -- >> rose: didn't make the bold

decisions. >> that is not someone i want to see as president. i want to see someone who is not only willing to spend that capital but eager to. >> rose: president obama said president bush said i am here to do big things and i am not here just to fill the time. >> yes. i would echo that, presidents learn from past presidents, obama clearly thought about fdr and lbj and the ability, the necessity to actually act boldly and act quickly. but i would actually say empathy. we are an incredibly divided country right now. the politics is gerrymandered, and at some point this is what politics is about is about reconfiguring the landscape of the next real estate has to have that high on their agenda. >> rose: bill clinton wins that hands down, doesn't he? >> yes, but can hillary do it too? >> rose: empathy and -- doris, one quality? >> i guess i would say the confidence to know your own

strengths and to reenjoy those strengths but at the same time know your weaknesses and be able to surround yourself with people who can show eh shore up your weaknesses and then you get a team who can hopefully govern the nation. >> rose: joy in the job. >> huge. i think -- >> rose: otherwise it will wear you down. >> it would wear you down and get tired, bill clinton used to say the mistakes he made were when he was tired. you have to enjoy this, and i think we want -- the way the office has developed over the last two and a quarter nurse is it is the point of, it is this vital center of action, as the phrase goes. >> i feel a desire to change the world, a willingness to fight to change the world. >> rose: and understand the world you want to change. >> yes, certainly. >> rose: thank you all. >> thank you. >> rose: presidents' day, thank you for joining us. see you next time. >>

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>> funding for charlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 2002. >> american express. and charles swab. >> additional funding provided by -- >>

. this is "nightly business report" with tyler mathisen and susy gearing. brought to you in part by -- >> the street.com, an independent source for stock market analysis, it's home to his multimillion dollar portfolio. learn more at thestreet.com/nbr. good evening, everyone. welcome to a special holiday edition of i'm tyler mathisen. suzie garding has the night off. we begin with presidential trivia. under which president was the first peacetime income tax imposed. it was under president grover cleveland back in 1984, but that time it didn't last. but thanks, or maybe no thanks, to the 16th amendment,