>> welcome to the program. we begin this evening with general james jones, former national security advisor to president obama, former conindant and europe. >> one he could be remembered for is being our energy president, becausewe're talking about 40 years of history here where no administration has ever strategically tackled the energy potential of this country. and now that it's staring us in the face then states like north dakota and texas are being transformed economically, it gives you a sense of what's possible not only domestically or regionally but globally. >> rose: we conclude then with a conversation of gravity with its director alfonso cuaron and its star sandra bullock. >> if you are all awake enough

to feel the reasoning behind something, the human being is such an amazing creature in that it wants to fight. it can't not fight for survival. most of the time. we talked about that a lot. you know, what is that thing that happens when you've given up that ignites just the slightest amount of passion to at least try one more time before you truly give up. and sometimes letting go is what you need to do. >> rose: james jones, alfonso cuaron and sandra bullock when we continue.

>> they're not afraid to question the path they're on because the one question they don't want to ask is how did i end up here. people who want to take ownership of their investments like they do in every other aspects of their lives. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> i was persuaded that you were willing to take on the hard issues of her time at a very very difficult moment in our

nation's history. spanning the difference between two very different centuries, the 21st century and the 20th century. >> rose: general james jones is here, he's a retired four star general, former national security advisor to president obama, also served in the supreme allied command at the nato forces in europe, a lifetime of government service he has turned his attention the private sector. he's the founder and president of jones group international. i'm pleased to have him back at this table, welcome. >> thank you charlie. >> rose: i want to talk about energy this morning which is a passion of yours and one of the things that face this country. but first because you were head of nato and national security advisor to the president, we're looking at ukraine and seeing what? >> well, critical moment for sure and unfortunately has some tinges of an area we thought was long gone and that's the cold war just because of the players. you mentioned i was in nato and

one of the two councils we had in nato in 2006, the nato ukraine council and the nato russia council and they were different. anyway toe expanded from 19 to 26 countries. we brought in most of the former soviet block countries and there was no question that the current president in russia is not a fan of that. as a matter of fact we're treated to to his view of the world in 1945 and the president went to moscow in 2009 and it certainly is different history than you and i would recall. >> rose: what is his view? >> well, obviously nato is the evil incarnate, the world would be better off if it was still a bi-polar world and goes downhill from that. >> rose: the thing he hated the most is the expansion of nato on his board. >> he took that very personally, i think. >> rose: what we have here though, i mean clearly a

government that's some question about how corrupt they might be from previous experiences as well as this. >> sure. >> rose:úuñ a question of a decision they had to make with respect to a lot of their citizens wanting them to have a relationship with the european union and all that. and then at the same time, president putin wanting him to have a close relationship with russia and one could buy that relationship. >> we have spent a lot of capital both now and i'm sure when i was in nato and before, cultivating an offering a happened of friendship to both russia and ukraine. these two councils, standing councils were visible proof and every six months we had a meeting. we cooperated military to military bases, we joined exercises, we had exchanges of

military training. and so for a long time we've had what we thought was really good relationships that were developing from the bottom up. but all the way through -- but it started to take a different term obviously since mr. yanukovych and mr. putin had their meeting in sochi, it was clear that the russian influence carried the day so far which is obviously what we're seeing in the streets right now. >> rose: recently the vice president yesterday called in very strong language i think said you don't want to be killing your own citizens. >> exactly. i'm sure the other thing they talked about was georgia and i'm sure the russians do not want to

see that experience recreated in the ukraine. this is a pretty important moment in terms of not only what's happening on a day to day bases but what's likely to roll out in the future. >> rose: what are the risks? >> in terms of military confrontation, probably zero. >> rose: they clearly have the capacity to put down the revolt. >> sure. the question is what do they do about it and i thought the question's speech was effective in the sense that we have figured out that sanctions in the case of iran for example were severe enough to force them to at least give some indication they might want to start talking, sanctions with the u.s. and the eu working together and other countries would be something that both russia and the ukraine would have to pay attention to. >> rose: that's one thing,

sanctions. but are we seeing here as some has raised the question there's little we can do. sanctions may have an impact. >> in the final analysis, you know, everyone wants to solve these problems diplomatically and at the table and using the rule of reason and logic. but reason and logic don't always apply when you have people who are looking at the world through completely different glasses, whether it's corruption or whether it's just a naked power grab. you have to deal with that. and sometimes there aren't a lot of good options. >> rose: i suppose the president. you're still the national security advisor. the president brings you in and you're sitting at a table like this and he says general, what are russia's ambitions and how do we respond. what is your advice? >> well, i think one of the

successes of the administration in the first two years was the star treaty. here you have two leaders, russia, president medvedev and president obama who actually forged a personal relationship. and that empowered everybody else. you could feel it all the way down through the national security advisor chain, the state department chain, the defense department. and you could feel that even though there were differences that we were going to be able to sit down and work together. and it was a good moment. and that moment has passed unfortunately, at least it appears that way. mr. putin is obviously very interested in a different russia, vis-a-vis the europeans

and vis-a-vis us. >> rose: and russian influence in the middle east, he's interested in. >> exactly, exactly. so if we're getting back to the time or even remotely to the time when we say up they say down and we say -- >> rose: they say what. >> exactly. that's not good. and it's not good for russia and i don't think it's certainly good for many of us who have worked for really hard and very long towards bringing together a path that is away from the cold war. >> rose: so call resetting the relationship. >> exactly. >> rose: let me turn to energy. where are we. what is the u.s. energy equation today and how far away is energy independence and what are the implications of that is the broad question. >> let me start with energy independence if i could because that's a term that i don't like like to use because it has some vestiges of isolationism. basically if you really sorted

out and said we've got ours, you worry about yourselves. >> rose: we don't need yours. >> but energy sufficiency i think is something that most countries would try to adhere to. we have a world right now where we have some who have it and some who don't. we are astonishingly lucky, not only in terms of what we have but the amount what we have, ranging all the way fromcole coal to wind. it's a national security issue. it affects not only our economy, our trade, our death, our jobs, our technology but it affects our standing in the world. the have-nots in the world in terms of energy in this globalized world are seeking to have adequate energy.

adequate, and by energy i'm talking about not just oil and gas but but water food, that kind of energy as well. those who visit are somewhat empowered and i think in this globalized world, those who have it have a moral responsibility to lead and to understand that energy and climate are interrelated and that we have an opportunity in this country both regionally together it's good that we're having this discussion as the president just met with his counterparts in canada and mexico. we have the opportunity to craft if you will a north american opec that could really be transformational in terms of who we are in the world. >> rose: in what way? >> well, i think domestically you can significantly reduce our national debt, create jobs,

stimulate the economy. regionally if you form an alliance with canada and mexico, that speaks volumes for influence. and then internationally, the role that we play in defeating terrorism, defeating the idea that the united states was responsible for all of the evil things that happen on the planet can be defeated with leadership not just national leadership but international leadership to try to pivot towards a 21st century reality that says look, while world war three the way we talked about it in the 20th century is not likely to happen. we are in a competitive marketplace, and we can use our competitive advantage to help the developing countries to stimulate our own economy and to provide for energy access to those who don't have it. and that is in my view transformational in terms of defeating terrorism in the

radical fundamentalism that preaches that we are the great enemy. >> rose: you also in favor on the keystone bridge, i mean the keystone pipeline. >> i am. we have just seen the fifth study come out just a few days ago from our own government saying that there's no environmental impact or whatever there is is negligible and this is a good example of something that would benefit our relations with canada, which in my canadian friends, our canadian friends are scratching their head as to why is this taking so long. it would benefit our economy. creates more jobs and really -- >> rose: did the president come out with a clear point of view on this? >> he's not come out and said that he's not in favor of it. he has come out i believe and said that they want to study it longer. >> rose: that's a euphemism. he made a decision didn't it. >> i like the term i haven't

made a decision yet. the one i would not like to hear is we're not going to do this. >> rose: yes. but why not? i mean what else -- >> i don't know. i mean i really don't know. >> rose: you know people who talk to him. there must be some understanding. >> the people i talk to have said to me, and i can only take it at face value they think that eventually that decision will be made in a positive -- >> rose: when they're afraid they're not misting anything. >> exactly. >> rose: when you talk about the relationship between the united states and the rest of the world and china and japan and all of this, how much of a leverage, perhaps the word you don't want to use either, does it give us in terms of the world. a lot of people look at the united states today after changes in the equation and look at our financial circumstances which have gotten considerably better and look at the private sector which has a lot of money

to invest and say this could be a really good time for america. >> charlie, i think this is the time, on this issue and this isn't the only thing. but if americans are looking for a good news story, we ought to look at this story. because think about that by next year, the united states will have surpassed russia in domestic, in oil and gas production. we will be the leader. within 10 or 15 years, we could surpass saudi arabia in just oil exports. we're going to be a net energy exporter. the other thing that's different from us is, in our country, is that everything from as i said from coal to wind and all the renewables and everything else. we have this in abundance that

nobody has. that's tremendous leverage. how we do it, how we use it and how we resource it, resource our r&d sector, we should not abandon the renewalables for example. simply because we have an abundance in shale oil and gas. >> rose: does the economics of the renewables change. >> over time? >> rose: yes. >> possibly. >> rose: and make them more competitive. >> exactly. but renewables will be used. no sector of our energy is the ultimate answer. together managed correctly, it all can be the ultimate answer. we could be, in the next, we could be could by 2030, we could be completely self sufficient in terms of just oil and gas.

there's no question about that. >> rose: what does our allies in the middle east say about that. >> well, that's a great question. because for 40 years, our friends in the middle east have said and they've told me this, so this is not guesswork. but we've had an oil for security deal for 40 years. >> rose: you provide the security they provide the oil. >> they provide the oil. some have concluded from what's going on in the middle east and how we handle, how we respond to syria, how we respond to egypt and how we respond to the arab spring, because we now have a much brighter future than when we were dependent on opec, that we are somehow less interested in their region. that's a conclusion that they've drawn. >> rose: you would want to dissuaded them of that notion. >> we should dissuade them of that notion. the middle east is the most dangerous spot in the world. i think secretary kerry is doing

as good a job as could be done in terms of focusing on those issues. and we need to reassure our friends and analyze not just in the middle east but elsewhere around the world that united states is still committed. we're still a country that can be relied upon and that we're with them. >> rose: i had the leading coms here. ben who may know was here from haaretz last night and he was just amazed at the energy and movement forward of john kerry. >> yes. >> rose: he's got all these balls in the air whether it's iran, syria and israeli palestinian negotiations. he went to china, went over there and he had a new statement just yesterday about climate and how important that was and how serious that was. i mean he really is having an almost like very engaged --

>> he's got a very good teamwork -- is a serious person, general john alan is as good as they come so he's really got some good folks. >> rose: john alan is working on the security elements with the palestinians. >> the job i had back in 2007 when i was special envoy working for rush. my feeling is that everybody kind of knows what this is going to look like. so it's a question of getting the people to the table to agree to it. >> rose: do you believe kerry has a plan that may be able to get them to the table to have a serious conversation. >> i don't think there's any doubt that we have a good, we have a good plan that the moderate arabs, the europeans and everybody would rally around if president awe barb and prime minister netanyahu would think about the global implications. >> rose: and take the risk on

each other a bit. >> yes. the whole thing has always been to try to get, in the case of the two occupants of those two jobs, to come to the table and seriously negotiate. they both have to be convinced that this is in their long term best interests to both countries, which everything else seems to believe except them. >> rose: john kerry i said talk about climate change he said climate change can now be considered another weapon of mass destriction perhaps the world's most fear some weapon of mass destruction. he said that in jakarta indonesia. do you agree with him. >> clearly i said a long time ago you can't have a serious discussion about energy without respecting climate. our country has made astonishing progress in dealing with that and we're going to continue to do that i'm sure. to me it's not a question of either or, it's a question of working in harmony with one another. in the overall subject of energy, i also believe that

there has to be more cohesion between our public sector in this country and our private sector. public sector should make good policy, are and the private sector should do what it's doing which is really catapulting us into a position of great security in terms of our energy future. >> rose: do you believe in missed opportunities in syria. >> yes. >> rose: primarily what? >> i'm of the opinion that the red line on the use of chemical weaponscnp was probably a time n american leadership internationally should have been a little bit more effective. >> rose: what does that mean? >> well, it means that you could have considered some actions that were punitive, more

punitive in terms of the assad regime. for example, i'm not sure that's the only answer but for example, you could have taken over a northern band of syria and made that a no fly, no drive or no go zone, whatever you want to call it with international forces and contained refugees into that safe area. >> rose: to hear you say that, i mean you'd also note that the president you work for says i don't think no fly zones with work. that's what he says, to me. >> i understand. you asked me a question, i gave you my opinion. >> rose: you're saying on that i disagree with the president and no fly zones night have been very effective at that time when they cross the red line. because concurrent with them crossing the red line and lack of response finally ending up with conversations with the rush as you about nuclear weapons, our allies in the middle east

drew a certain message of that. >> everybody draws conclusions by what we do and what we don't do. in some steps that's the penalty you pay for being the united states of america. but our allies in turkey, and our friends in europe and our friend in the middle east want american leadership. >> rose: they didn't see it at that 340e789 and they were desires appointed. >> that's their interpretation. >> rose: and they say what's in our best interest. >> exactly. >> that's a fearsome, that's a troubling circumstance. >> it can be repaired. >> rose: it's not repaired as of now. >> no. the president's going to the region and he's going to engage with them. the united states is still the best hope on this planet for people who want more peaceful

and prosperous future. and we cannot simply pull away regardless of what's going on here at home, we cannot advocate our responsibilities. >> rose: do you think that's some of what the president is doing because he simply has been, and this happens, as you know, generals do it and presidents do it. they become worried about history and they look at how the united states got pulled into wars that seem to have no conclusion. and the net result was a loss of cherished lives and treasure. >> yes. >> rose: and you say i don't want that to happen again. are we at a moment where the president has said that and you think there's a danger from that. >> well, i think that we're coming out of two wars over a decade. >> rose: one of the longest wars. >> the longest wars.

and unfortunately, unfortunately the outcome in both, the long term outcome is in question right now. what's the future of afghanistan. what's the future in iraq. and -- >> rose: you look like a man who has served at the highest levels of national security policy who has deep concerns about our national security. >> well, i think you have to be. you have to be concerned about the future. i mean, that's what people like me are charged to do. and the next generation behind us are doing it and periodically we get asked what they think and we give our best opinion. >> rose: you mean to political mowers. >> sure. the whitehouse was very good about calling in that former national security advisors and having a very open candid discussion. >> rose: so you have a chance to express your views and the president listens and then he

makes a decision he thidz -- hs is appropriate which is exactly what you want him to do. >> exactly right. one of the things i enjoyed the most and i think the president and the vice president did as well is this council of former national security advisors that we called in every quarter or so. >> rose: every three or four months. >> every three or four months. and generally we get eight or nine, sometimes seven or eight national security advisors served all administrations and there wasn't one partisan comment in talking about the -- >> rose: different points of view but not partisans. you and -- >> kissinger. >> rose: colin powell, all of them being secretary of state. >> exactly. >> rose: that's been going on during the obama administration. the president meeting with the national security advisor every three or four months and saying

is it conducted by the president or is it done by -- >> the national security advisor. >> rose: so he does it. he reports to the president. >> yes. i think we started it in 2009. there may have been other administrations but i remember when the first time i did it and we had -- colon -- colin powell and kissinger and just about ever. it was a good discussion and so rich in terms of history because history does repeat itself. so what we would do is periodically give them a presentation on kind of the top two or three things that we were dealing with and then we'd have an afternoon's worth of discussion. and they were so good that the president and vice president used to drop in periodically and

just sit and listen and occasionally ask questions. >> rose: not trying to run the meeting just trying to participate. >> my successor, tom donnylin kept it going. >> rose: that's the kind of thing where you were hoping could be done in a place like this around the table so the public understands the nuances of things so it doesn't simply become one point of view versus another point of view. >> sure. >> rose: it doesn't become what's the partisan advantage in this, it's not a shouting match but it is an endeavor to try to understand and bring the most light and the most intelligent and some say the most, the widest perspective to these problems. >> from that periodically various organizations like csis, council of foreign relations and others, have three or four former national security advisors and we do that periodically. >> rose: i don't want to

leave with energy. one last question. are you confident that we're on the right track here and that this is, we have reached the point where this is absolutely, there's an awareness of the potential of all this and that we have the means and the policy and the strategy to carry it out. >> so what i'm confident about is that the private sector is on the right track. what i'm, what i believe needs to be done and as you know i co-chaired a two-year study with the bipartisan policy council in washington with trent and byron and bill, former epa administrator and administrators from the entire spectrum, senior representatives including environmentalists. and we came out about a year ago with the final report that essentially was a two part report. the first part said energy is a strategic issue but we are not

organized to do strategic thinking and produce a strategic plan. we published ways in which we thought the government might take a look at it and say look here are some of the things we can do to do this better. the second part was to kind of educate the public and ourselves really on where are the points where just about everybody agrees. i mean, what are the points of confluence, completely without any politics being attached to it. so that report's out there. and i think that we're at the moment now where particularly if the president makes a decision on the keystone pipeline where we could actually accelerate this. i believe that the president can be remembered for a lot of things but one he could be remembered for is being our energy president because we're talking about 40 years of history here where no administration has ever strategically tackled the energy

potential of this country. and now that it's staring us in the face and states like north dakota and texas are being transformed economically, it gives you a sense of what's possible. not only domestically, not only regionally but also globally. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you charlie. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. >> you copy? do you copy. this is mission specialist ryan stone. >> rose: sandra bullock and alfonso cuaron collaborate over

gravity. it responders deep questions about human struggle and evolution. here's a trailer for gravity. >> beautiful, don't you think? >> what? >> the sunrise. terrific. >> can't breathe. what do i do.

>> rose: gravity is nominated for ten academy awards including best actress, best director and best picture. i'm please to do have sandra bullock and director al fawn s aw -- alfonso cuaron at this table together. he's been here before but never with you. >> he's done everything better before me. i'm okay following him. >> rose: when they showed you this part, did you say this is for me, i love it. >> no. >> rose: nothing. did you say i don't want to work, i'm tired of working. >> i said i don't want to work, i have nothing to offer. i don't know how even know where to begin start talking myself. >> rose: did you really.

>> yes. >> rose: why? >> i wanted to stay home with my little boy. that would be -- sorry. i just wasn't in a place -- >> rose: you didn't want to go make a movie, you wanted to play. >> pretty much, that was it. >> i met her in austin, we had a lovely conversation, a lovely chat. i called -- she's ryan but she doesn't want to work. apparently she, after the conversation she wanted to do it. >> rose: she didn't -- >> she didn't let us know for like a few days that we suffer. >> i was -- >> this whole thing of the rules. >> rose: can't take the first offer. >> as interesting as game

playing, there are other factors you need to weigh before you go off on an unknown. there was nothing about this journey that you could sort of get a hand hold on and say i know what this is going to be and i can feel secure in making this decision. nothing. so i had to look at a lot of factors to see if i could, you know, be okay letting go of everything to go on that journey. >> rose: what factors did you look at. >> well the first one was, can you make the world a wonderful world for my son. i cannot go here if i can't be around him all day and if i can't have him be a part of this journey. so they guaranteed me that his world would be right there with us and they would make it amazing which they did. they turned the whole cement sound stage into this wonderful oasis for a child learning how to walk. everything was bumper barred by

the way. at that time he was a year and-a-half. and then not knowing how to do this, am i going to be able to train for this, am i able to have the time to prepare and do what i need to do. and all the answers were yes. >> rose: it was an interesting enough character for you to want to inhabit. >> once i knew that he would allow me a certain level of collaboration. i didn't expect collaboration to come from someone like alfonso. i thought you sign on and you let go and you let the tiny dictator rule the set. >> benevolent. >> you're right benevolent. but it wasn't like that at all. i didn't know how to pull it off without to be able to collaborate with the storyteller because you had nothing. i needed to know it was okay letting him stop and question and search for. he was that and more.

>> we always say that we have composed the screen play with harmony and sandra came to give the melody. and this is true literally in the sense that, in a script like that sandra where it was every single thing you see in the film. but the way of taking the character, there was still the interpretation. and sandra was so adamant to work, to make sure that every single deed was going to work for the theme of the film. and. >> rose: what's the theme of the film. >> the theme of adversity, the theme of loneliness and adversity. >> rose: i thought it was rebirth as well. >> yes, adversity and the possibility of rebirth. the journey is the journey adversities and the goal

is rebirth, yes. >> rose: we see how you made this movie in part. how long did it take you to make it. >> total, four and-a-half years. >> rose: well how much of that was getting the money and everything and the actors together. >> it was four and-a-half years because we have to develop the whole technology and stuff for two and-a-half years. then we shot and then it was pretty much three years of putting everything together again. >> rose: this is nothing like you've ever made before. >> no. never had an experience like this. >> rose: you never thought about gravity much have you. >> i do when i look at my face in the mirror and you look at other parts of your body, you think about it a lot. >> rose: only you can say, only you would say that. >> i think human beings think about it all the time. but i had not thought about how the body which is very different from how the body works, how the

body works zero g versus how it works in gravity. and you have to unravel every impulse and reaction that you normally have in this environment and you have to train your body to bend and move in ways -- >> rose: explain that to you. you have to train your body to move in ways -- >> yes. and the best peace of advice that i got from actually astronauts at the space station is image you're pushing and pulling against balloons. so pulling in, if the balloon was here that's what it feels like. it's always an effort made. and if you hit against something, let's say i'm running against this table, you move forward into the table versus the minute you bump into something you go backwards and grab it and you don't stop until you hit something else. and how your body responds, it spins out of control. as much as you fight it, the worse it gets. it was little pieces of information they give me when we

started rehearsing i went wow. >> rose: so what's happening here. >> i see it. >> rose: who is the girl up side down. >> we hit her very hard. >> this is the scene where they're literally filming it up side down. >> another puppeteer. >> they're up there sort of laterally moving you. and the puppeteer below me to sort of keep the body. >> rose: is this the hardest movie you ever had to make. >> in the best way, yes. >> rose: in the best way. challenging but most he can siting. >> exciting and rewarding. once i figured out i was fighting and i should actually be using everything that was a frustration, that limited me. all those thing that frustrated me were things once i figured out were a benefit because it's essentially the same thing that's happening to the character in space. it's the loss of control, frustration, loneliness and

isolation. in said of fighting it you i'm brisked it. >> rose: what's she going through. what's the transformation in ryan. >> someone who experienced such a loss that the only way to survive is to remove anything is in essence the memory of what life was like before. she's basically a machine. she's just allowing her brain and her skills what she's good at to propel her through life. everything's rhythmic and perfunctory. there's nothing in life that has any meaning if she can at all avoid it. that's brought her to this situation where she's very good. send me in space, i don't care, i don't have great but i'll execute what i need to execute and go back to life which is pretty much non-existent. someone who doesn't care if she has a life or if she perishes. so what kind of person is she at that point when she has to decide to fight for her life. is she someone who says i'll

take this opportunity and let go and let myself die or is she going to take this opportunity and let go and let whatever comes come but accept that she might, it might be worth fighting for something. so it's interesting to see when a person comes with that crossroads when they get what they wish which is you can make that choice and let go of life and not fight for it anymore. >> rose: what's really always interesting to me, it often takes something else to get you to find that thing, you know. in this case being up there, that vñshe might not have found otherwise. >> life is interesting that way, isn't it. it just gives you, it doesn't give you anything you can't handle. i don't buy that but i do believe that if you're at all awake enough to feel the reasoning behind something. the human being is such an amazing creature in that it

wants to fight. it can't not fight for survival most of the time. and we talked about that a lot. what is that thing that happens when you've given up, that ignites just the slightest amount of passion to at least try one more time before you truly give up. and sometimes letting go is what you need to do. and you have the ultimate gift in this movie, and for those who haven't seen it, i don't want to give it away but the greatest gift a human being can give another human being is given. and it's so lovingly and selflessly done that if that doesn't ignite that tiny little spark in you to look at your life and see the worth of your life, then you know, you're missing the whole point. >> rose: it's that kind of sacrifice, if you're not going to do it for you. >> you're not going to. >> rose: you're not going to get it. i don't want to sound like i'm a psychologist or shrink.

>> are you licensed? >> rose: no. [laughter] >> rose: come on, admit it, you've been helped. >> i have. i still need more but i've been helped. not by you but by professionals with a license. >> rose: by real serious people. >> people who know what they're doing. >> rose: when you describe this character have you been somewhere else similar to that in your life. >> knock on wood i never been marines what she has to experience. look, we all get knocked about. if you lived a good life you're going to be knocked about. >> rose: did you lived a good life you're going to be knocked about because you've taken risks. >> getting up every day is a risk, opening up your heart to someone is a risk, is someone telling the truth, is this guy going to be honest about the journey or am i going to come out saying why did i say yes to something i didn't want to say yes to, i was lead. >> rose: how do you answer those quest -- questions, why u

say yes. >> why did i say yes. we spoke about adversity and what we wanted out of life in very similar terms. and we had the same language which really surprised me. >> rose: what was the language. >> how we had the same language. >> rose: see what i got her to admit. >> i think in the end it comes to not knowing. not knowing and knowing we are in absolutely no control over anything. and once you admit that you have absolutely no control over anything, i think you sort of are more in tune and in sync with really the bigger picture. it comes back to the metaphor of just letting go and it's easier said than done. but going back in and saying i'm going to say yes to an experience that scares the crap out of me. the unknown, am i a bad mother, am i going to take him a place that's no good, is there egos

going to make me regret. all the what ifs and every single day i was surprised and moved and loved and cared for and you go mm-mm, i'm so glad i said yes. everybody gets knocked about. >> rose: if you talk about a job you can talk about this in terms of personal relationships. >> absolutely. and i panic. every time have i to make a big decision that forces me to be around you know people and make a big life decision, you know, i panic. but when i take a breath and i let it sit and i go if it scares me for the right reasons which is creatively, that's good. if i say i'm going to be around energy that's not going to make, that's going to make life seem you know fall into the life too short category, then you don't say yes. i didn't see this as a life too short category. i saw this as hopefully a way to get over a lot of fears that i had. and i did. and it was you know the sweetest time i've had in a very long time. both personally and in the work

environment. >> rose: and therefore it encourages you to look for the same kind of experience. >> yes. i'll never have this experience again. i'll never have all these elements come together again. i know that nor am i looking for it but i want to fight for something that is different and challenging and ask the most of me. and i thought i did that before but i realize never to this degree but also doing it to this degree taught me a lot about myself that i had no idea existed. >> it's like addicted to uncertain truth. sandra is almost an addiction of testing her limitations. >> yes. >> rose: testing your limitations. >> addicted or just i can no longer just be afraid. i can't let fear dictate -- >> rose: that's the point. >> i can't let fear. >> rose: you might have in the most but now you have to realize --

>> i need to dive into that and figure out why i'm so afraid of that. >> rose: is this somehow in a broader sense a kind of transformative experience for you. >> oh, one thousand percent. the person that went into this is not the person that came out the other end at all. >> rose: the person today is more confident or more understanding of what it is that i should do to better appreciate the fullness of life. >> all of the above. not that i'm more confident but that i am a very aware of my short comings. they no longer paralyze me. i am, i'm not fearless but i'm excited about the things that scare me and can look at them from many sides rather than again letting them freeze up my passive -- >> rose: but you're madly in love with louis. >> yes, that's everything. >> rose: does that change. >> that's everything. and every decision i make. i know that my whole career

trajectory, i was given this amazing gift and it's opened doors but i go isn't it funny how it's opened all these doors and i now know i will not be able to take most of them because i'm going to choose to be a mom. i'm going to choose to have my life evolve around louis, i know shocking for an actress. and i just wanted to say it before you did. i know. >> rose: what was he going to say. >> he was going to say shocking. [laughter] so you know, i think that's a familiar story amongst people who have children. you just go, i've been so lucky to this point in my life. >> rose: you have something else to live for. >> i have something to live for and his life is far more interesting than mine right now so he deserves to have the world evolve around him for this time. >> rose: because all experiences are new. >> everything is new to him and to me. >> rose: does it make you wish you had done this much much earlier. >> no. >> rose: or did you do it

exactly the right time where you were prepared to enjoy its maximum. >> everything happened exactly the way it was supposed to happen. i honestly don't think i understood the concept of joy until now. >> rose: really. >> i didn't know what it meant. like i mean, i think i knew what it meant on a surface level. i had no idea what joy truly meant, and looking for joy every day, i go what do you want in life. i want to get up and i want to find joy. wherever it is i just wanted to find joy, with of course, you know. >> rose: that's because of louis and because of this experience. >> and this experience. but they all came together. >> rose: you just want to find -- >> i just want to find joy. when you ask what was it that day and i say yes, i think alfonso's pass in live is exactly the same. >> we were trying to sort out on the same mystery. we agree in the theme of adversity and we were trying to

make sense out of adversity. is this thing of we tend to fall very easily in our comfort zone. even if we're going through hard times, we follow our own inertia. and life has its way of to put you in your place by beating the crap out of you. so sometimes if you're too much in your comfort zone, life just sends, you know. >> rose: to discover it if you're too much in a comfort zone and you're repeating yourself. >> sometimes life is generous and sends you adversities because it's what you need to shake you a little bit. >> rose: what were you looking before you get up every morning and look for joy. what were you looking for. >> i always thought i was a very happy person. i'm always grateful, i was always, but there was always sort of you know looking over your shoulder in a way that you

go something is just not right, something is missing. what is this thing that you know, that i didn't want to have to manufacture the joy by going i need a cup of coffee to sort of wake up to get the day started. i didn't want to have a great role to make me feel satisfied in myself creatively. i didn't want it to be another human being or another situation was in charge of my happiness. but i found myself going wow, i did this and i'm supposed to feel like this success but i don't. i accomplished this and i should feel good about myself but i don't. and so i think i was just placing joy on things that were on the outside coming to me rather than you know, all of a sudden life shifts and you adjust and you learn things and all of a sudden you know, is it having a child that breaks your heart open. maybe. is it having that happen at the same time i'm given the most extraordinary work experience to challenge myself? maybe.

is it because we got to do it in england with the most incredible crew and cast of people who were kind and loving and showed you support and sweetness every day? maybe. all those things. i can't put my finger on just one thing. but it's the culmination of so many things and just you know going with the flow. i can control that you know. in the end it's just that. once you realize you can control nothing it sort of takes away the pressure. >> rose: find the joy. thank you for coming again. pleasure to see you. >> thank you for having us. >> rose: you're quite wonderful. >> that i agree. >> can i get a clip of that because that's going to -- >> rose: it's over then. >> something's going to happen again. [laughter] >> rose: thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time.

captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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