>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight david remnick, juch back from sochi. we talk about the olympics and also about the conflict in ukraine. >> russian history is-- has been for centuries a raetion, in many ways, of rivers and blood and oppression. but part of putin's conservatism, and his building of state is to reassert a different history. a glorious history. >> rose: also this evening, a conversation with rashid al-ghannouchi. he is from tunisia, and he is one of the principal figures showing that democracy and islam can work together. >> the urgent need today is to convince peoples that dialogue

consensus and pursuing of path of coexistence and steering away from-- tunisians must bring on board all tunisians, the egyptians should bring aboard all egyptians and we must learn the skill and art of how we coexist so that we all enjoy happiness instead of working one party against the other. >> rose: we conclude this evening with lisa bloom, a graduate of yale law school, and an attorney and author. >> one of the things i want to do in this book is say this is not just about demonizing george zimmerman. it's about all of us looking at our implicit racial bias. most of us think we're not racist, but when you take these

clever psychological tests you may realize you have implicit racial biases and there's no question the outcomes for african americans is very, very bad in terms of intrk education, housing, jobs. the only way to overcome that is understand and acknowledge how these deep-seated racial bias continue to work. >> rose: russia, tunisia, and a look back on the tray von martin case when we can continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: the winter olympics in sochi, russia, ended on sunday, but the conversation about russia continues. on wednesday, president vladimir putin put combat troops on high alert near ukraine's western border. tensions have increased in the pro-russian crimea.

u.s. society john kerry warned russia must be very careful in the judgments and keep the commitments to respect the sovereignty of ukraine. "new yorker" editor david remnick just returned from sochi where he covered the olympic games for nbc. his article in can the new york this week is called "patriot games-- vladimir putin lives his olympic dream." i am very pleased to have our friend david remnick back at this table. so here you are, not an editor. your talent. >> talent, as they say on tv. who knew? you never called me talent. just the opposite. >> rose: first of all, it was a different experience for you. i mean, you're there for nbc commenting on-- >> the opening ser mope was the main thing, and then i did a few things with bob costas-- poor guy. >> rose: i know. >> he played hurt as long as he could. he was willis. >> rose: he was, oh, god. the captain limped out, did he? >> he did, like el sid.

but it was-- you know, most olympic games are the olympic games, and they're exciting for the athletic thing and you get to see it and focus on an olympic city. but this was disinned from the start to be half an olympic games and half a political event. >> rose: another let's talk about the political event. this was seen by vladimir putin as what? >> the reassertion of russian confidence and power on the world stage. i think that it's-- the soviet union collapsed in 1991, and with it collapsed not only an economy but a kind of national self-confidence. an empire dissolved, like the ottoman empierk the austrian-hungarian empire, and the fallout was like a time-lapse photography that took place over a generation. there was lots of talk about democracy. certain things happened that were extremely encouraging but a lot of things happened that were

awful. and one thing that certainly happened was a process of demoralization about the inability to build institutions, democratic institutions, for the economy to develop and all the rest. and putin sees himself like certain figures in the czarist era as a man of the iron fist on the one hand and development on the other. that's the way he sees himself. >> rose: he sees himself as the man in charge of a strong state. >> he's a state builder. and so to have this opportunity at the cost of $51 billion to essentially build a city-- sochi was a very, very modest old city. there's so much new there-- tunnels and bridges and roads rs and railroads and ski jumps and all the rest, and it cost $51 billion that we know of. how much of that was bribery and

all kinds of chicanery we will never know. >> rose: comrade, you will contribute to the olympics. >> $51 billion is more the cost of all the olympics combined. >> rose: he wanted to show russia was pack, it was a player. >> it's a player, it is modern and developing. all he got going in is having not only lblg concerns and serious concerns-- in fact, sochi is right there smack in the middle of a region that's been called a war zone, but certainly a conflict area, the caucuses. it's coming smack in the middle of, to my mind, the extremely legitimate protests against a disgusting antigay propaganda law. it's coming at a time when u.s.-russian relations and relations with russia and the west are certainly not at their swreepington.

and ukraine was starting to happen in a very serious way and played out over the course of two or three weeks. and you also had kind of cheap cold war-esque sniping at the at the beginning of the olympics. here's a lesson for all leaders -- never put journalists in bad, nonfunctioning hotel rooms when they don't have anything to write about yet, with twitter in action. brown water, and lo and behold, there were stray dogs in sochi. i thought some of it was a bit much. far be it from me to sympathize with vladimir putin, but that was a bit much. >> rose: was it successful in terms of what he wanted to achieve? >> in large measure, yes. there was no terrorist attack, number one. he made damn sure of that. not only was there-- what what was called the ring of steel

around the olympic area, but you could be very, very sure that in the really hot areas in dagestan and elsewhere, the pressure from the s.s.b., and other concerned apparatuses were in high, high -- >> more likely, they had the defense ministry. >> and the army, too. and i thought in the closing ceremonies, there was even a flash of the kind of russian wit that i love. to see them making fun of themselves with the fifth ring not opening. >> rose: oh, yeah. >> i thought that was a kind of show biz moment of irony that was nice. but them the real world reasserts itself. >> rose: and they told a story. there was a narrative in the opening ceremony. >> they did. and i think that was part of my job sitting in between matt lauer and meredith viera to-- i guess, you know, some people thought i was debbie downer-- "here comes the marching persians of 1937." but more seriously, there was an

attempt -- >> here comes a guy who has actually lived in russia. >> but there was an attempt, however much a cirque du soleil kind of macy's thanksgiving day parade terms, to show the best face forward, even historically. russian history is-- has been for centuries a legacy of-- in many ways of rivers of blood and oppression and-- but part of putin's cashatism and his building of state is to reassert a glorious history, peter the great. >> rose: and a wonderful future. >> and to go past the-- that the west has been dancing in the end zone about the-- the victory in the cold war. and the turmoil of russian history. >> rose: he famously said, as you know and i know, it was like

the worst day of-- >> the collapse of the soviet union was the greatest geostrategic tragedy of the century. >> rose: so what are we experiencing in ukraine? >> well, again, this is another episode, or chapter in something that began in that period, 89-91. the empire dissolves. and that dissolution includes the most essential dissolution of all, which is the relationship between russia and ukraine. russian history begins in kiev, not in moscow. >> rose: how is that? >> long story but prince princed kings begin in kiev, and religion has the root roots in v as well. and certainly, vladimir putin, as a state builder, and somebody who wants to reassert to some extent what he calls awe uration

union. >> rose: a uration union. >> that would include belarus and parse of central asia, and so on-- that the core of that is russia ukraine. and yet within ukraine, you have until some days ago, yae, who was loyal to moscow. you have the western part of ukraine which speaks ukrainian and leans towards the european union. you have the eastern part of ukraine that speaks russian predominantly, and leans towards moscow, and the crimea which leaps towards russia as well. there are all kinds of divisions here. what i would say is yanukovich was awful. on the other hand, he was democratically elected. and he was overthrown in the streets. he murder dozens of his open people. >> rose: during the protests. >> absolutely. he was as corrupt as corrupt could be. we are now in the-- in that very familiar moment that we've experienced over and over and over again in recent decades--

the excitement period. it's is that moment when -- >> we think history is happening here and which way is it going. >> and democratic institutions will take hold. the illusion of tahrir square. one wonders why the great authoritarians in the world don't realize a square is a very bad thing to have in a city capital. that scares-- tiananmen square, red square -- >> and even more so now because of social media. >> social media calls you to the square, and i think malcolm gladwell is right that it doesn't form political institutions or bonds. and we're in that excitement period when the people rush to the mansion and see the golden-- golden toilets and the fixtures and all the documents come spilling out, and you see the depths of the people's despair and the corruption of the leadership.

as the journalistic cliche goes-- now comes the hard part. >> rose: i was going to say, what should we fear from-- what's in putin's mind now? he's basically looking at this saying, my god, i cannot let this stand? >> i think, yes. the question is what he does about it. what he tried to do is keep ukraine'ukraine's loyalty throu. through cheap gas, cheap energy. >> rose: even though having nice little dances with its european union. >> right. and that drama is far from over. this very morning, russia decided, not by coincidence, to have some military exercises not far from the border of ukraine. >> rose: saying, "we're here." >> "we are here. take note. take note." we may be back here in two weeks or three weeks or something-- god forbid-- and i could be wrong, but i find it very hard to believe that russia would

send troops into ukraine. toward what end would it be? i just coapt know. >> rose: first of all, it would bog him down. >> who are you fighting? what you fighting for. >> rose: exactly, and what do you get from it? >> and what do you get from it? russia, even while it's asserting itself on the world stage in sochi, and putin say master of his own almost-cartoonish self-confidence abe, that he was got a lot of problems. >> rose: doesn't it work in terms of russian psyche and the appeal of putin? >> i think we should not forget that the majority of the people i know in intellectual moscow and st. petersburg, and good liberals and so on, and younger people and people entering the middle class and the upper middle class, they are long since tired of pietin. they want to see development upon an independent judiciary,

and a real legislature and rule of law, and a free press and all of those things. but right now, you have an authoritarian situation, and even though putin has lost some support-- he peaked in the high 80s-- he's in the 60s. that's not nothing. i think barack obama would be very, very pleased to be in the 60s. >> rose: is it possible this thing happening in ukraine, which has its own unique character for the reasons you said, could somehow, like the arab spring, spread? >> well, i don't know. i mean, i think we really ought to-- if we haven't learned humility of judgment about the direction these things take, whether it's in a positive way in tunisia or in a highly chaochaotic way in egypt, then e learned nothing. we've learned nothing. ukraine is not just a story vis-a-vis russia. it's a story vis-a-vis itself.

and it's highly, highly complicated. and remember, you already had what seemed like an exciting democratic revolution a decade ago. >> rose: in 2004. >> the owner revolution. >> rose: in 2004. >> and-- there was timishencho. >> rose: what role does she play. >> i think it will be less-- she was not the hero. >> rose: they booed her at some point, didn't they? >> they did. look, again, let's not idealize completely what's on the square. whether it's in tahrir-- there's a distinct minority. there's a minority of the kind of nationalists that are really gross. they're awful.

even neofascists. the russian leadership has tried to paint everybody in the opposition with that broad brush, and i don't think it succeed at all. but there are all kinds of currents in the politics of ukraine. it's not just the good guys on the square and the evil dictator. the complications run much deeper than that. >> rose: is it possible we could see-- because all these problems and all these issues. we know whose happening in syria where they began having conversations-- >> up to a point. >> rose: up to a point. >> where are we in syria? instead o of slaughter by chemil weapons it's slaughter by barrel bombs. >> rose: it seems assad has gained strength. >> a lot of strength, and the opposition's picture has changed for the worse increasingly. look, i-- i think something interesting has taken place in

putin himself. when he came back to office to reassert his presidency, he had been-- he didn't really have an ideology before. it was just the assertion of strength, centralization of power. >> rose: former k.g.b. guy. >> all that. now you see taking shape a kind of conservative, moralistic anti-western ideology. >> rose: you have actually sat next to him at dinner. >> long ago -- >> this was when you were there for the "washington post"? >> no, no, it was much later. >> rose: that was really long ago. >> tom brokaw had a dinner here when putin was in office fair little while in new york, one of those u.n. confabs. and i was put right next to putin, probably because i can speak russian. and he was at that time -- >> was there after lenin's tomb. >> this is in 2002 or so. i'd have to check, 2003.

he hadn't been in office for very long, but he-- the habits of posture and the way he did and did not interact with him to very suspicious western characters in the room, mostly reporters and editors-- he was very much the k.g.b. man. highly reserved. very wry. tough. no sense of humor whatsoever. and not a strutting and self-confident and cartoonish as he can be now. now, part of-- again . >> rose: the shirt off and all of that. >> the shirt off, and the tranquilizing gun and shooting tigers and whales and underwater deep sea diving for archaeological treasures -- this is part of creating the image of the vital russian man. >> rose: the real man. >> and we find it hilarious and fodder for, you know, jon

stewart or stephen colbert, but it plays big-- it plays big with the base. >> rose: david remnick, "new yorker" magazine. putin's bid for gold. thank you for coming. >> always a pleasure, charlie. thank you. >> rose: back in a moment, stay with us. ( applause ) we begin this evening with a look at islam and tunisia. joining me from washington, rashid al-ghannouchi. he is a cofounder of the al-nahda movement. ghannouchi urged his own party to step down making room for an interim government and the drafting of a new constitution. the constitutions signed into law in january 26, and the elections will be held later this year. with a military cue in egypt and civil war in syria, tunisia is seen as the last glimmer of hope in the so-called arab spring. i am pleased, very pleased to

have rashid al-ghannouchi on this program for the first time from washington. good evening, sir, and thank you for joining us. >> ( translated ): i welcome you, sir. >> rose: let me begin with three quotes about tunisia. first, what you have said in an interview with my friend lally weymouth. you said, "tunisia is the last candle still shining in the arab spring, despite all the winds that are blowing at it." also you said in a speech today in washington, "the tunisian model, which has proven to this whole world that democracy is a dream that can be realize realized in the muslim world and around the whole world as we're seeing in various regions despite the regression in the arab spring countries over the last few months." and finally this from tom friedman, "why is it the arab awakening country country where the united states had the least involvement, tunisia, is where

the most progress is being made towards building a consensual democracy?" with those three quotes, i want to ask this morning-- this evening, and begin this evening with your telling us where tunisia is today, and how you were able, with the tunisian people and other leaders,to bring it to this place. >> ( translated ): tunisia, following the constitution and after the setting up of the national election dependent commission, and after the forming of a neutral government, the tunisian train is already on the path of-- to elections by the end of the year, so that

tunisia would declare the first arab democratic government. >> rose: what have you done differently in tunisia that didn't happen in egypt or syria or other places? >> ( translated ): the circumstances of tunisia are different from other arab countries. also, we bet on the consensual democracy, rather than on the democracy of the majority. we promoted dialogue among all factions in order to reach a consensus. we did not count on majority only. for, we believe that there is a success for the tunisian elite in all its factions, in order to

reach a consensus. and i think there is a failure on the part of other elites in order to build up a consensus among themselves. >> rose: some of those who are members of your own party and others have-- who feel very strong about islam have asked the question, should they be disappointed that the constitution does not enshrine shirra law, or declare itself an islamic state? >> ( translated ): members of our party are similar to other individuals of the tunisian society, are quite satisfied with the outcome we have achieved, under which tunisia

has emerged from chaos and started to move towards democracy. but islam is mentioned in the constitution. the constitution is a successful merger between moderate islam and global secular modern values. and, therefore, moderate islamists and secularists found in the constitution a reflection of themselves and that's why they are satisfied. but the extremists on either side, of course they would not be satisfied with the constitution, but they are a minority. in general, the tunisian people are moderates. ... >> rose: and you in fact-- and the party-- has designated

alshary as a terrorist organization. >> ( translated ): it is, indeed. as long as it uses violence to impose its ideology it is a terrorist organization. >> rose: the woem reported tunisia succeeded in large part because of you, rashid al-ghannouchi, who urged his movement to set aside most of the ideological agenda in favor of compromise. is that a fair appraisal of what you did? >> ( translated ): we appreciate for this newspaper this fair treatment to us, but

everything we did was prompted by our keen interest to ensure the interests of the state of tunis. we tolerated the tolerance of islam, and we have no interest, outside the national interest. we think that islam is a faith of tolerance, compassion, mercy, and not a faith that calls for killing and it is not against democracy or human rights. >> rose: you believe you are showing that islam and democracy can come together and function together. >> this is the essence of of our sperp, not only the this point in time, but when i started to work in the political arena, when i founded a movement, our

enterprise is to affirm that islam and democracy do not contradict but they complement each other. and the tunisian constitution is a successful merger between islam, modernity, gender equality, and it is all-inclusive, and recognition of the rights of minorities. >> rose: was it difficult for you to have to deal with members of a regime that had imprisoned you on more than one occasion? >> ( translated ): yes, it was difficult, but we have to overcome our personal emotions, the desire to inflict ret riks, because that would not lead to

democracy but rather to a civil war. and, therefore, endorsed the transitional justice system so that individuals would be held accountable for the deedz and not as a group. we recognized the parties that remember operating under the old era, and it is the judgment of the people who would hold them accountable. democratic system would hold them accountable. if the nation or the people elect them, that is the people's judgment. >> rose: what was the mistake, or do you believe the muslim brotherhood made a serious mistake in egypt? >> ( translated ): perhaps they did not succeed in achieving consensus between

themselveses and their opponents. perhaps, they might have relied on the rule of majority, and this would be suitable and established in... democracies. but in the case of neighborientt democracies, the majority by itself is not sufficient. there must be consensus. there must be national dialogue that is all inclusive, and lead to the participation of all powers in sharing power, and modernist-- they must share power and incorporate in order to ensure the success of the transitional state. one side is not sufficient to attain that goal. >> rose: did you do things, and did opposing political parties do things to make sure that the military or the army would not get involved in

politics? >> ( translated ): this is a significant difference between egypt and tunisia. the egyptian army is politicized and ruled the country for over 60 years, and could not accept that the power would go out of its hand to civilian authorities. but the tunisian army is not politicized, and, therefore, it did not become a party to the political action but maintained it its mission in order to save the borders of the country to secure the security of the nation. we avoided the prospects that wouldee the country would slide to a crisis because this would

gave chance for the military to intervene. we don't want the military to intervene in politics. >> rose: do you believe that you have created a model that will be a shining light for other countries struggling between islam and democracy, not just in the middle east but in asia and other places? >> ( translated ): this is actually, our dream, our vigil, and it started to take shape. it is our hope that this would continue to evolve and cease to become a transient event, but would define the future of tunisia and the entire region as a whole. >> rose: and is it-- do you believe it's possible for nowithstanding what's happened in egypt, but one of the most powerful countries in the

region, to regain what you have discovered and created, not withstanding what looks like the course its on? >> ( translated ): i am fully convince that future of-- for democracy in tunisia, in egypt, and across the globe. there is no reason that would make us believe that the egyptian people or the arabs in general are not qualified to-- for democracy. we that can democracy is the solution for egypt, and not a military du coup d'etat.

dialogue among factions is the solution. the coup datawould be the problem, and does not have a future. my advice to the egyptians is to go back to dialogue and to reconciliation, a consensus, and to consider that exclusion is not a solution but would be an essential problem. >> rose: but it looks like it's going the other way, not in dialogue but in terms of military control. >> this coup d'etat is like all other coups, will not provide a solution but would deepen the crisis and create more wounds in egypt. sooner or later the egyptian people would go back to democracy. because fear of the autocrats,

dictators, have been eliminated by the arab revolution. the gain by arab revolutions is that the fear of the ruler has got away from the hearts of people. peoples have restored confidence in themselves. what has been achieved in tunisia, shows that people are stronger and the peoples have the means and the tools to shake themselves loose and, therefore, the egyptian people will not go backward, and will continue to struggle until they restore their freedom and liberty. >> rose: what does tunisia's economy need? what's necessary for a stabilizing economy? lb. >> ( translated ): it is necessary for the tunisian economy first and foremost

democracy, stability, the natural resources of tunisia are limited, but the most important asset for the tunisians is the human asset. tunisians are an educated people, educated nation, and the geographical location of tunisia at the heart of the mediterranean basin qualifies it to accelerate its development and catch up with malaysia and singapore and what is required now is democratic system and political stability. therefore, tunisia today would be qualified if the future elections are held successfully, would be qualified to accelerate the pace of development. tunisians believe in the free enterprise, and they believe in the social economic-- that gives

importance to the impoverished area, and tunisia is well poised to interact with its geographical region, with europe, with the united states, with africa. it is qualified to represent a model of democracy, a model for development and for coexistence between islamists and secularists. >> rose: do you believe that violent radical fundamentalist violent jihaddism remains a serious force and threat in tunisia? >> ( translated ): the sentiments of the tunisian people, the culture-- mainstream culture of tunisians is peaceful culture. the mainstream cult suragainst

violence. terrorism in tunisia is quite an extraordinary, exceptional case, as a result of poverty, imbalance, or inequality and chronic dictatorships. if we build democracy and succeed in development and manage to explain to the tunisian youth that islam does not promote terrorism or killing, but rather islam is justice, tolerance, and equality. >> rose: how much resistance-- to your goals and your dreams-- how much resistance within your own party? >> this is a well-established

culture in our party for over 20 years now. and i have written extensively. that in my books, in my articles, in my presentations. a whole generation of tunisians were raised against this cultural background, and this has become forceful in tunisia, especially our democratic path has become an attractive model for youth and islamic movements, even nonislammic movements. >> rose: what do you expect from the united states? >> ( translated ): we expect that the united states, being a friendly country, the success to

the tunisian democratic movement is the best path to fight poverty, violence, and terrorism. in other words, we would like the united states to spend some fund and promote democracy in order to build up a model for democratic transformation because this is perhaps the most viable, most effective path to combat terrorism. >> rose: and what do you expect from other moderate islamists? >> ( translated ): we expect from moderate islamists, which are the mainstream of islam, because terrorism is an extreme

margin. it is an exception. we expect that muz muslims all r the world, that democracy would be the path to development, the path to unity, and to renounce violence and to promote the correct interpretation of islam being justice, equality, mercy and compassion among all human beings, and that islam promotes everything that is good, everything that is beneficial to the community. >> rose: is there a battle now, in the world of action and ideas, for the heart and soul of islam? you represent, your country represents who can be accomplished in democracy, in

moderation. on the other hand, we see a minority of islamists who believe that they hook at egypt and other places, believe the only way to go is through armed inser recollection, and insurgency. >> ( translated ): indeed, there is a battle for islam. there is a minority that would like to hijack-- quote, unquote-- islam. you know that to use it, in order to dictate its ideology on human beings, islam stands for justice, liberty. it opposes any action to control human beings because the overwhelming majority of muslims would like to live in peace, like all other human beings.

they would like to see good done to all people. they would like to see justice and compassion pervading across the society. they don't like to see retribution, and there is no room in the future for retribution or extremism and violence. >> rose: and finally this-- what role will you play in the future of tunisia? >> ( translated ): if the question relates to me personally, i really have no special political ambitions for myself. i have exceeded the age of 70. the tunisian revolution was made by tunisian youth. we would like them to be in the

vavanguard leading the whole process. if i could continue my role as a factor working for the well-being of my country and contribute to the success of the democratic model with islam, then i would be happy because then i would have felt i have done something for the tunisian people, for the arabs, for the muslims and for all humankind. >> rose: and the urgent need, the immediate need is what? >> ( translated ): the urgent need today is to convince peoples that dialogue,

consensus, and pursuing the path of coexistence, is the solution. they must bring on board all egyptians. and we must learn the skill and art of how we coexist, so that we all enjoy happiness instead of working one party against the other. >> rose: thank you for joining us this evening. it's a pleasure to have you on this broadcast. and i hope that we can do it again. >> ( translated ): it is my hope to see you, sir, in tunis tunisia. if you visit tunisia, tunisia is nice, but it's nicer without dictator. tunisia is nice with democracy. >> rose: rashid al-ghannouchi

from washington, d.c. talking about what many people look on as the shining example of islam and democracy. i thank you again. >> ( translated ): thank you, sir. i am pleased to have had this interview with you. >> rose: thank you very much. >> my jacket moved up and i had my firearm on my right side hit. my jacket moved up, and he saw it. i feel like he saw it-- he looked at it. and he said, "you're going to die tonight ( bleep ). and he reached for it, but he reached-- like i felt his arm going down to my side, and i grabbed it and i just grabbed my fireman and i shot him, one time. >> rose: two years have passed since trairks an unarmed black teenager was killed by neighborhood watch coordinator in a gated florida comiept. the criminal trial of george

zimmerman and his acquittal rivetted the nation. even president obama weaked in. >> you know, when trayvon martin was first shot, i said this could have been my son. another way of saying that is trayvon martin could have been me. 35 years ago. and when you think about why in the african american community at least there's a lot of pain around what happened here, i think it's important to recognize that the african american community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that doesn't go away. >> rose: lisa bloom is a trial attorney and legal analyst on television. she covered the case exhaustil

for nbc news and msnbc. he writes about it. i am pleased to have her at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you so much for having me. >> rose: let's talk about zimmerman first. since the acquittal, what's happened to him? >> well, we've seen him pop nupt news a couple of times. both his wife exprveg then his girlfriend accused him of pointing guns at them when they asked him to leave. both of them then recanted and dromed the charges. we've seep him go to the gun manufacturer for the gun he used to kill trayvon martin, smile, pose for pictures like a celebrity. he also signed up to do a celebrity boching match, but after some public outcry that was canceled. >> rose: why was he acquitted? >> i think he was acquitted because the state of florida failed to make its case. i don't blame the jury. i start the book, in fact, inside the jury room with a new story about what one of the jurors describe going through.

i don't blame the jurors. i blame the professionals, the prosecutors for make such profound blunders that i have never seen in such a high-profile case. >> rose: charles ogletry of harvard, said, "the confidence did a good job in a sense of putting trayvon martin on trial, which he should not be on trial. he's the victim in this case. but in reality, that's what happened." he essentially says that the prosecution allowed the defense to put trayvon martin-- >> i agree with that, and i would take it a step further. trayvon martin was not only put on trial, he did not get a fair trial. he did not have an effective advocate in the courtroom. i don't think ultimately the prosecution believed in the case. i don't think they believed trayvon martin was the victim. they certainly didn't argue the evidence they had february 26, 2012, until april 11, 2012. they didn't even charge george zimmerman. they didn't think he was worthy of being arrested. it was the public outcry, the

groundswell of support that we all saw across the nation that many people participated in that led to the arrest. of course, an arrest is just the exwing. it's not end. they still had to prove the case in the courtroom. the case was assigned to some prosecutors who i think didn't believe in it. >> rose: did they have a theory of the case? >> no. they didn't have a theory of the case, and i have never seen a prosecutor win a case without the theory of the case. you have to give the jury a story. they simply will not do that job for glu that's what the defense will do? >> and the defense had a very coherent theor of the case, the one george zimmerman articulated from the very first moment when the police arrived and he had the smoking gun in hand and he said it was self-defense. at trial the defense painted a very scary picture that zimmerman was down, trayvon martin was atop him, was assaulting him, was reaching for the begin, was going to kill him, so zimmerman had to grab the gun and shoot in self-defense. it's a terrifying story, and anybody who believed that of course it would be self-defense. the problem is the mechanics of

the evidence didn't support that. and most importantly, george zimmerman showed on a videotape that his gun was holstered behind him and, therefore, it would not be physically possible for him lying on his back, especially a dark night, with trayvon martin on top of him knees to arm pit and see that gun. unless trayvon martin had that vision, the story would not be possibility. >> rose: what is your theory was case. >> my theory having put the evidence together and watching the trial is zimmerman took the gun out when he initially encountered trayvon martin. we know he did not want him to get away. he was frustrateed in the past, other young african american men he had called the police about had gotten away. he didn't want him to get away. we know from rachel jeantel's testimony, she was the young woman tray von was talking to on the phone when the two men encountered each other that trayvotrayvon martin's mart firt words were, "why are you following me?" followed by, "get off, get off,"

which sounds like george zimmerman was the aggressor. trayvon martin certainly didn't pound his head on the cement like zimmerman said, and he certainly didn't see the gun and reach for the gun because that would not be physically possible. >> rose: racial profiling has gotten a lot of attention in this country. has it changed? >> frankly, i was shocked when i did the research for this book to discover how widespread racial profiling is. it's not just florida. here in new york city, racial profiling has been a profound problem. as you probably know, a federal judge has said that 4 million african american and hispanic young males in new york city were racially profiled and it was unconstitutional. i think it happens all over the country, and i think-- one of the things i want to do in this book is say this is not just about diseemonnizing george zimmerman. it's about all of us looking at our own implicit racial bias. most of us think that we're not

racist. and yet, when you take these very clever psyche logical tests, you may discover that you do have implicit racial biases. and there's no question the outcomes for african americans are still very, very bad in terms of swk, education, income, housing, jobs. the only way to overcome that is understand and acknowledge how these keep-seated racial bias continue to work. the good news is law enforcement, police can be trained to stop engaging in racial profiling, and they have much more effective outcomes when they do that. doctors can be trained to stop spending twice as much time with white patients than black patients. when we become conscious of what we're doing we can change. the good news is i think most of us want to be egalitarian in 2014. >> rose: there's finally in this. you quote david henry thoreau-- we are paid for our suspicion by what we suspect. >> that's why i called the book

"suspicion nation." i think we should be aware of how suspicious we are of our neighbors. crime is way down to 1960s levels. why are we so afraid? and in particular, why are we afraid of african american males. a white person is much more likely to be the victim of a crime perpetrated by a white person than a black male. maybe we should turn down the dial on fear. homicide is not the top one cause of contingent for americans. our number one fear should be cheeseburgers. we have much more to be concerned about than the obsession with crimes and looking at people and pulling guns and calling the police and that is one of the important issues i try to talk to. the book is called "suspicion nation" with a forward by our friend jeffrey tubein. thank you for coming. >> thank you so much. >> rose: thank you for joining us. we'll see you next time.

captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org how go you know if you or

a loved one has a.d.d.? answer these five questions. do you have a short attention span? are you easily distracted? do you struggle with organization? do you tend to procrastinate? and do you get yourself into hot water by saying or doing stupid things? if you answered yes to three or more and these symptoms interfere with your life, you may have a.d.d. (female announcer) in this program psychiatrist and nine-time "new york times" best-selling author dr. daniel amen and his wife nurse tana amen, also a "new york times" best-selling author, will give you a completely new way to look at and heal the seven types of a.d.d. thank you. today we're gonna talk about the most controversial medical issue of our time, attention deficit disorder,