>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with a look at the afghan elections with as sad ma is shini. >> the country itself the people have changed, they should take pride in what the u.s. has achieved in afghanistan, afghanistan is not iraq. >> rose: we continue this evening with a conversation about online education with the former president of yale university, rick levin. >> we have a woman in bangladesh, she was a product of -- she was involved in abusive relationship with her husband. she escaped from her situation and a friend of hers and herself decided to start a bakery. she went online and took an accounting course, a marketing course, how to run a small business course, and this woman in bangladesh is now running a successful bakery enterprise and from coursera. >> she, it gave her a life.

>> rose: and we conclude this evening with a conversation about confidence, claire ship man and katty kay wrote a new book called "the confidence code", the science and art of self-assurance. >> we started writing this book because we would interview women all across america, women in incredible positions of important and came across this self-doubt, people you think would be brimming with confidence would talk to us how they were just lucky to be in the right place in the right time to get their job, were they really deserving of their promotion and it got us thinking there is something about confidence that we wanted to investigation and the book is really an analysis of what confidence is. >> we have no idea that confidence would turn out to be something you might be born with. >> rose: the future of afghanistan, the future of online education, and the confidence gap between men and women when we continue. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following.

>> >> there's a saying around here: you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look. captioning sponsored by rose communications

from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: as sad is here, ceo of the moby group one of the largest media companies in afghanistan. moby house it is country's most popular television channel and approximately 15 million daily viewers. covered the first afghan presidential debate to include all major candidates, he believes the proliferation of free media in the past 12 years is afghanistan's most precious achievement and now looking to bring this entrepreneurship to other countries, including iran, egypt, libya and iraq, i am pleased to have him back at this table, welcome. >> thank you. and a few more countries. >> rose: a few more countries. iran is already up and running. >> yes. >> isn't submit we are in central asia and south asia and in the middle east now. >> rose: and you were not trained as a media entrepreneur, i mean you were a banker, you were lots of other things. >> yes. >> but when afghanistan changed, when they threw out the taliban you saw an opportunity. >> yes. >> and one little radio station

became -- >> well, i mean, we were lucky. i mean i think it was by design, more of an accident business accidental business. >> we set up a business and one thing led to another and lo and behold we have about 20 countries across the region. >> rose: and partners like rupert murdoch. >> he is a minority shareholder in our company and it is good to have him. >> let's talk about the election. >> success, i think. >> rose: seven plus million people, when they were threatened, one-third of them women, and which many people didn't believe it was possible. >> yes. 60 percent participation rate, higher than yours. >> rose: yes. of course. >> yes. >> rose: we are less than 50. >> and it was a bad day. the weather was dad, it was snowing this parts of the country and raining and leading up to the elections it was a war zone, and buildings were getting attack of every day, suicide bombings we lost two good friends in the week prior to the

elections. so it was an extraordinary, you know, courage to see people line up to vote. >> rose: so then we have a runoff? >> we will see. we will see. >> rose: do you have a feeling it will go one way or the other? >> well, i mean, you know,. >> rose: based on -- >> we have three of the most prominent candidates are all ph.d.s and all forward thinking. are all western educated, so we have three good candidates, two of whom are leading with 42 and 37 percent each, but they have only counted ten percent of the votes so it is early days we will see if someone will get over 50 percent if not it also will depend in what the mar written is between first and second. >> rose: so i am confused by this too, how long does it take to count the vote? >> well we will have the final results in the first round on the seventh of may. >> rose: do you think it will change what we think happened now? >> i think the trends are emerging. >> abdullah will still be the

leading, have the leading number of votes? >> it seems like it right now it is probably early to speculate but he probably will be leading the question is how much will he lead by. it is hoped we have a coalition government and not have a second round. >> rose: how will that happened. >> technically it happened in 2009. >> abdullah was second and dropped out. >> rose: because he thought it would be corrupt. >> yes he had his reasons but the constitution allows for that to happen the basically. >> rose: what is your judge on hamid karzai. >> well, he squandered a lot of opportunities for his country for afghanistan, he has ruined a lot of good relationships like your country, i think history will probably judge him, will be a lot kinder to him because he will be seen as a person who over saw, you know, a decade of development, a decade of change, i mean, in absolute terms the country has changed dramatically since 2001 but for people like us, i mean who have, you know, we are privy to so much more he

could have made, he could have made a huge difference to the country's economy, to its structure, to its infrastructure, and those are opportunities were squandered, having said that and he will get credit for the smooth transition, the smooth political transition, he left on time and difficult not take sides, he has been fairly fairly neutral. >> rose: what candidate he favored. >> i think he helped every candidate and sort of was very inclusive. >> rose: and what is his future in afghan politics? >> i think he wants to, you know, it is difficult to walk away from power i think he wants to be engaged and he wants to be used, he may want to work on the peace treaty with the taliban, but i don't know. tell the story about when you were at the age society and holbrook was there, tom preston was introducing you and you all were all backstage and karzai was there. >> >> rose: you were not there but karzai knew tom preston, because tom told him was a friend of yours and top was

going to introduce karzai. >> that's right so holbrook goes to hamid karzai and this is tom a friend of saddam hussein and president karzai goes absolutely nuts you know that man is not a patriot. >> rose: a good businessman but -- >> but, you know and this was because in the early dade we wanted to find out as to why the taliban were sort of in terms of their operation why do they have, you know, a support base in the country and the reason why is because the government was so predatory, so corrupt that the taliban has reemerged so we did stories on that and labels me as a pro taliban guy which is not the case how much of the country support the taliban. >> less than ten percent, less than ten percent, we did a comprehensive survey of 4,000 people face to face across the country, less than ten percent of the population support the taliban, they don't have a base inside the country, and they don't -- >> rose: are they paid? i

mean who makes up the taliban? >> religious students, religious students who have been brainwashed there is no shortage of poor, impoverished young men living on both sides of the borders going to madrasahs mostly in pakistan and getting funding by different groups and support from different governments. >> rose: karzai would not sign a security agreement. >> yes. >> rose: at the same time both of the candidates now leading, two top candidates will support a security agreement that will have nato troops remaining in afghanistan. >> yes. the 11 candidates, every single one of them said they would sign the agreement, including the fundamentalist candidate that support for the international troops is now at 75 percent, the afghanistan is a very strange country, we don't like foreigners but ten years on. >> rose: you kick them out at every turn. >> but on this occasion they realized that international engagement is important for the country so karzai was

completely, i mean he had -- he was not gauging the path of the nation so that decision of his has been very costly for him. >> rose: what is the relationship between afghanistan and china? >> it is not particularly strong, it is almost nonexistent, chinese invested in the mining sector. >> rose: that's what i thought. >> >> rose: that's what they are doing in africa. >> yes, they are not even that serious about it. they haven't started work on it and secured the contracts, it is a huge copper mine that they have done nothing since. the chinese are close to the pakastanis and long-term players and not going to do anything rash for now. ironically, according to our sources when car sigh went to china to gauge as to what, you know, they felt about, u.s. continued engagement through the bilateral security agreement the chinese said do it. make the deal. >> rose: make the deal?. make the diseel. >> rose: because it would stabilize afghanistan. >> the chinese have their own issues with fundamentalist.

>> rose: and so does putin. >> and putin also said they would support that but not officially. >> rose: so what is the future for afghanistan in your judgment? >> well, it is a country that is exceptionally, 60 percent is under the age of 20, median age -- >> rose: 60 percent under 20? >> the second youngest country on the planet after uganda. >> rose: wow. >> it is an exceptionally -- >> rose: why is that? >> i think it is a postwar phenomenon, people have lots of killed, we lost a million people during the soviet occupation, a million individuals so the population has gone up substantially. you know, we had a forum earlier and discussing the changes in the country, 6 million people out of 30 million people now have access to the internet, thankfully, most people, 70 percent get the internet via a mobile device. a third of our internet users use facebook. >> rose: wow. >> and 22 million people have -- >> rose: and how is the life of women changed? >> well it is going to take a

long time but what has changed is education. education has changed women, the literacy rate has gone up substantially since 201 and looking at 35 percent and in the next decade it will go up to 65, 70 percent and in 20 years i its going to go up to 90 percent. it is probably the quickest change in terms of educating a population and a third of our students in schools are women. >> rose: wasn't the great fear of all of them the taliban returned and all of that would be ripped down? >> well i mean the taliban are a nuisance, can they actually go and capture major cities and towns i doubt very much. the security forces have improved dramatically. >> rose: so what did the americans accomplish? >> they accomplished, you know, rescuing afghanistan, i mean we were -- we were staring at the abyss, a population that had been completely destroyed, no infrastructure, no education, no civil society, no media, no economy. >> rose: this was muja dean

thrown out the russians. >> it progressively got worse and for that reason the afghans remained, you know, completely committed to international engagement. they are very appreciative of what the international community has done hence the high approval of isf forces. >> rose: yes. >> 75 percent. >> rose: wow. >> i didn't know that, you don't know that here you think that americans with their sense of the mission in afghanistan is? i mean you travel, you have friends that are americans. >> i think americans say we won't don't want to be involved in anything. >> rose: two wars are enough. >> two wars are enough but if they look back in terms of what has been achieved and how, you know, the afghans, the one itself the people have changed, i mean they should take pride and in what the u.s. has a gheefd afghanistan. afghanistan is not iraq. that we have to be very clear about that. and the country, i mean. >> rose: how are they different? >> well i mean first and foremost we are not going to go

through another civil war. we have been there and we have done that. secondly, anti-foreign sentiment, the iraqis i mean in terms of how they feel toward the americans it is very obvious. they are very strong anti-american sentiment in iraq. we don't have that in afghanistan. and of course the other thing which is very important is this new generation of afghans who are emerging within the business community, within the political establishment very progressive, they are very modern and they are forward thinking. >> rose: is it still a tribal society? >> it is, but, you know, the urban rule divide is now 50-50, all right 50-50 you are not seeing this in the figures but based on our own research, you know, close to 50 percent of the population resides in urban centered. that changes the dynamics of the society. >> rose: you are afghan australian? >> i am. >> your father was a diplomat? >> he was. >> rose: i mean are you going to spend more time there? i mean what is your own sense in you are an international businessman as rupert murdoch

is, yet, you know, you, the beginning of your own fortune took place in afghanistan you have a invested interest in the country, both of the heart and of the, you know, the economic development of your commercial interests will you be more and deeper involved? you have enormous influence. >> you know, there are seven things we are very committed to. you know, a moderate afghanistan or a moderate yemen or a moderate -- >> rose: who represents moderation for you? >> a lot of people. >> abdullah abdullah? >> i think, you know, were lucky can he get past the idea he is -- >> he is technically -- his father is park tan. >> what he has seen with his relationship to messud am i right or wrong? >> yes, you are right because of his association but both candidates have votes right across the country so we are not that divided. >> rose: so you are happy with either? >> i am happy with either. >> rose: because it represents for you a strong after fan,

afghan central government? and a moderate government? not an islamic government. >> i am not streaking a less centralized system, but, you know, they are going to put us on the right track again, and we lost focus because of karzai over the last few years, but we could refocus on our priorities, we have the -- we just had the political transition, where we are about to conclude elections process, then we have the security transition, the americans. >> rose: right? 2014. >> in 2014. and then we have economic transition. we have to ensure our economy, which is very much reliance on the international community in terms of aid and so forth. >> rose: you are my afghan sort of barometer in terms of your -- by necessity, you have to have a sense of the pulse of what is happening there, and i have never seen you more optimistic and i knew you were very worried and it wasn't that long ago. >> yes. >> rose: and you have completely -- is it because karzai is leaving and the election looks like it is going

to choose one of two options that you feel like are better? >> listen, regardless of who comes in he will have a honeymoon domestically and honeymoon internationally. we are going to have the opportunity once again to go back to the rest of the world and say listen we appreciate your help and are grateful for what you have done, for the loss of lives and the billions of dollars you have spent on the country, of which ironically a small percentage ended up inside of afghanistan. and let's work, let's work together again. >> rose: so what about pakistan? >> well, pakistan is a problem just not because of afghanistan, but also because of domestically what is going on inside of pakistan. i mean. >> rose: the afghan war would have been a very different war if in fact pakistan didn't provide safe haven that is what every american military leader will tell you. >> no certain group can survive without a sanctuary, without assistance but for pakistan the taliban are now a serious

domestic problem and they have to face up to the fact that they have to work with the afghans to eradicate this group that, you know, wishes to drag both countries down, you know, this black hole. you know, the population of pakistan is set to grow to 400 million by 25th it will be the fourth largest country in the world, that is the population of afghanistan is said to grow to 100 million and 16th largest country in the world by 25th. >> rose: by 205 2050 afghan will be the 16th largest country in the world. >> afghanistan will have half a. >> a -- >> and serious threat to global -- >> when you look down the road that is the biggest concern you have. >> it is a major problem and we are working with the gates foundation to eradicate polio in both countries. >> there are only three or four countries. >> polio reappeared in the arab, you know, in syria in egypt and those places. >> rose: right. >> it has the pakastani strain,

so it is not just a question of radicals going from pakistan to syria, there are also spreading other things i mean this is one of the concerns we have that of the area remains radicalized it will impact the whole region. >> rose: what do you think is happening in syria right now? >> i think it was bungled by mostly your government. there was an opportunity to incubate an opposition, to work with a like minded countries. >> rose: you think that will be an indictment in the legacy of barack obama? >> yes. a huge opportunity was squandered, i believe because now what do you do with these groups you have -- starting from scratch what is going to be possible? you won't get rid of these people. and a lot of people ask this question a valid question, sort of, as sad is more assad is more palatable than a super wahabi al qaeda group. >> rose: what happens to mullah omar? >> he is probably somewhere in

pakistan. >> rose: for sure he is somewhere in pakistan. >> you know. and going about his life like bin laden did, probably, i would suspect. >> rose: you assume the pakastani government knew about bin laden? >> well, the stuff we read -- >> rose:. >> you like her a lot, don't you? or not? >> well, not like. i think that she knows the region very, very well and -- >> rose: and -- i was surprisingly what is the right word, not of one, not one note about karzai. >> seemed to give him some latitude. >> you know, all of us feel that, you know, with karzai going we are starting to feel nostalgic about the man, right? >> rose: of course you are. >> so he is going, well he wasn't that bad, you know. >> rose: right, right. >> rose: it is great to see optimism and interesting that you think that in a sense america's war in afghanistan

saved afghanistan. >> yes. >> for which we have to at the thank your people and your government. >> it was a good. >> and the brave men and women who went there. >> yes. >> rose: thank you. great to see you. >> great to see you too. >> from afghanistan, back in a moment, stay with us. rick levin is here and stepped down last summer after 20 years as president of yale university, his tenure was marked by improved new haven and campus renovations and farewell commencement yale trustees surprised him with an honorary degree from his own university, the citation said, you stand among the great presidents in yale's history, all who loved this university, take joy and confidence in knowing that the legacy of your service will benefit yale forever levin is the ceo of coursera a for profit educational technology company, offering massive open online

courses or mukes, i am very pleased to have rick levin back at this table. you have to be proud of your service at yale. >> it was a wonderful 20 years, and we made a lot of progress. >> and. >> rose: and yo you share -- is what you are proud of different than what i cited the global expansion the relationship with new haven? >> i think if i had to pick two things those are the two important ones we really made a big difference working with mayor receive know to make the city much stronger and opened up yale to the world, local and global. >> rose: here is what is interesting you didn't have a whole lot of management experience. >> i was chairman of the economics department. [laughter.] >> that takes a lot of -- >> but bar gio, i didn't manny had known. >> he wasn't even the chairman of the department. >> you seem surprised is bar jiomati after meeting you, he said this kid could be president of yale what was it then that

made him say that? >> i don't know. because i had a number of mentors who saw potential and. >> rose: what do you think they saw? they saw passion? knowledge? judgment? what is it? do you think they saw?. i think probably a kind of prekoacials maturity as a young man and an ability to sort of summarize a situation and find a solution to a complicated interpersonal situation and make something happen. >> rose: there is a lot to be said about that. some people can look at it and have great intelligence and look at something and never quite see the essence, at the core here is the issue and here is the question and here is how we can answer it. >> that's right. >> rose: that's a real skill. >> yes. and a combination of analytical ability and psychological insight i think that makes you function in that kind of -- >> rose: almost political insight too. understanding well you explain it to me. >> well, i think understanding people's motivation, it is a combination but and, yes,

politics is sort of the blend of all of that but you have to understand where people are coming from and what the root of their thinking is and where their feelings are. >> were you surprised when all of these members of the board of trustees that you appointed decided to give you an honorary degree? >> i was totally shocked, i burst into tears, actually i was so moved, very moved. >> >> rose: you really loved the place. >> i do it is a great institution and i gave it my heart and so soul for 44 years. >> rose: you could have sat on a bunch of boards and go gone to a foundation and gotten a government job as an ambassador or something, i mean maybe been secretary of the treasury i didn't but done a lot of things. >> true. >> rose: so you are running some online education country. >> in a sense it is really the perfect job for following, for me and for following the university. >> rose: why is that? >> well for one, i guess i like running things so it is an opportunity to run something, but the most important is it is

so much an extension of what i have tried to, do you know, to take yale to the world and this is an opportunity to take 108 of the world's greatest educational institutions and probably some more -- >> rose: let me stop you now. >> and teach the planet and teach millions -- >> let's do the landscape. you talk about musics -- mukes. >> you tried some experimental online education and yale and others have and there is a checkered past. >> well, there was -- there was a time of experimentation and learning, when we started in 2000 with stanford and oxford as partners, we thought our market was our own alumni so we kind of narrow cast over the internet and then when we opened it to the public the bandwidth wasn't there, this is still -- >> rose: a technical bandwidth. >> yes this is still an era in which your videos were jerking

around, you remember that? >> rose: i know. >> so i that that problem and we just didn't have the right model for making it work. also it didn't have a high degree of interactivity, basically you watched a lecturer, you know, give a lecture and maybe there were some visuals but that was it and then the next thing we did was open yale courses which were basically videos of 42 of our best lecture courses put out for free over the internet with the support of the hewlett foundation and they were great, but, you know, very few people watched them. >> rose: they were free. >> they were free, and there were no -- you know, the materials from th from the coure distributed but no quizes, no exercises now what coursera has done is sort of recognize first of all we have the greater bandwidth and support lots of people online at once. >> rose: right. >> taking quizes, reacting to the material, you know, getting feedback, having professors look at the data to understand what

parts are having a hard time with improving their courses is a constant feedback. it is really -- and the scale of it is immense, it is amazing and we have had 7 million different -- >> separate the landscape. there is edex and sebastian thing. >> udacity. >> bhow are the three different .. >> they are all a little different but those are the three essentially that are involved in this muke space there are a lot o lot of of oths on line, a lot had courses with closed enroament for substantial tuition dollars for some time now. >> rose: right. >> but what these three are doing is 32 trying to go to a wide open public and putting courses out there for free and getting hundreds of thousands of people to sign up form them. our approach in ed ex-are pretty six. >> ed ex-is harvard. >> they wanted to do their own thing and not sign up with

coursera. but, you know, we have about three times -- at this point about three times as many partner institutions and three or four times the audience, but, you know, it is a worthy effort, they are doing a good job and so are we and we are competing on what are the features we are offering our students. edex is open source software so some of the computer science like that better so they can play with it and add to the features on their own, but we are developing interfaces that will allow, you know, faculty to add features as well. you know, i think it is good there is competition. i have studies, you know, innovative industries before i became president of yale, it was my field and competition is good for innovation and the products will get better and. >> rose: are they different or the same. >> i think edex and coursera have a similar mission it is to take, to have great universities as a part in other words, have the universities develop the courses. >> rose: right. we are not a university, coursera is not a university, coursera is a platform and a technology company that serves universities

and that is what is. >> and major capital companies and other. >> yes, sir. >> but i think the point is, the key levin hoo, lesson here is the scale if you are a professor, take bob stiller you had on the show he just won the nobel prize, yale faculty member he offered a course in february, 160,000 people that signed up for this course, now only about 85,000 actually followed up because they registered weeks earlier, 85,000 started the course. the course is just wrapping up now, and about, there are going to be over 10,000 who take the final exam and take the course and there are going to be about 20,000 altogether counting auditors who have gone through the whole course and the materials, they just haven't done the exam and all of the assignments, so 20,000 students, will have taken his class, that is way over double the number of students that bob schiller has

taught in his the 30 years career. >> rose: right. >> one eight week,. >> the history of the courses is they sign up for the course and drop out. >> yes, but it is free, why not? >> you have no investment. >> yes. the stuff about completion rates being low is kind of still litigate groo. >> so what we have learned of the people that complete the first assignment, 44 percent of them finish, but -- and, you know, pretty much equal number of people audit the course,. >> rose: online education will change the world? >> i think it is giving an opportunity to people, i mean it is getting people better jobs, giving them new life we have a woman in bangladesh, she was a product -- she was involved in an abusive relationship with her husband. she escaped from her situation, and a friend of hers and herself decided to start a bakery, she went online and took an accounting course, a marketing course, how to run a small business course. and this woman in bangladesh is

now running a successful bakery enterprise and credit to coursera it gave her a life, a young man in africa had, you know, an educated man but he couldn't get a good job he tookt an accounting course at wharton and got a job at kpmg. >> one is paying his engineers $1,000 each to take the stanford course on coursera in machine learning so they can improve their skills in their job, so there is clearly, it clearly has a place in the employment market and a lot of people will upgrade their skills and then we have courses like the pen course in modern poetry that people say is the best educational experience they have ever had, just lifelong learners. >> rose:. >> it is terrific. >> rose: and how do you do that? >> just go online, coursera.org and 750 courses to choose from, 108 universities.

>> rose:. >> i think he was a real pioneer, he did a fantastic job. >> showed

think should be brimming with confidence, would talk to us about how they were just lucky to be in the right place at the right time, were they really deserving of their promotion? and it got us thinking there was something about confidence that we wanted to investigate and the book is really an analysis of what confidence is, where it comes from, are you born with it. >> so you went out on a search to find out if confidence made a difference and why did men seem to have it and not women? first whether there is a confidence gap is it true this sense we had from our receives and a lot of other women that women often do feel less confidence than men do and i have to say we were surprised by some of the data, what one of the studies we found

in hewlett packard did it and replicated elsewhere, for example, women will apply for promotions when they be believe they have roughly 100 percent of the qualifications for a job nine will apply at 60 percent. men and women -- >> rose: that is a lot lower. >> well, charlie, we are just talking about -- not you. men and women will take tests and they will score the same, a science math test, women will routinely immediately after taking the test imagine that they have done much worse than they really have, and men usually estimate that they have done better than they have. so we found all sorts of interesting data that there is this gap and then i think we decided let's find out where confidence comes from and boy are we in this situation? >> go ahead. >> i think a lot of people when you ask what "the confidence code" is a lot of people confuse confidence with self-esteem. self-esteem is a general feeling you have value in the world and almost moral quality, you are a good person, the universe is a

friendly place. confidence and this is what we analyze in the book, what is this quality that is so important but slightly enigmatic, confidence is a belief you can succeed at something. it is quite different from self-esteem. >> rose: i know. [laughter.] >> you have high scores in both. after laugh. >> yes, you do. >> rose: here is what impresses me about what you did you went out and looked at the studied and you talked to neuroscientists about it it is not a bunch of very highly successful women writing what they think about confidence it is a book that is based on a lot of looking at raw data and scientific analysis. >> thank you. >> it was actually -- >> rose: her idea? >> it is a lot of fun i will say it is a lot of fun but enormously frustrating a at that time because we did not know this study would take us. we said let's check out the science and see whether confidence is genetic. >> did it confirm more than you

imagined? >> we found that confidence is somewhere between 25 percent and 50 percent genetic. we had no idea that confidence would turn out to be something you might be born with. we found out that there are real differences as controversial as it is, differences in the way that men and women think, differences in the way we use our brains, differences that you can actually see on scans but most likely affect our confidence levels. >> rose: so what affects in your brain your confidence level? >> we went on this trip investigating people that, neurologists like you say studying confidence in rats, who knew there was such a thing as a confident rat. >> unconfident rat and confidence in monkeys so people are really trying to hone in on the genes there is not one confidence gene but there are a cluster of genes that neurologists now think are associated with confidence. we actually did our own genetic testing for the book to see whether we have this gene into and you found that you did? >> we found that we didn't. >> rose: you didn't?

>> no. and i really -- >> rose: are you ima compared to women or the population in large? >> we have genes -- genes that affect your serotonin levels, your dopamine levels, your objection to sin levels and we both .. thought, i thought katty would have the more confident gene combination, i wasn't sure about myself, because i know that i have often felt a lack of confidence but then i have overcome it overtime, but we were both really surprised we drew the short straw. >> when it comes to genetic preaddition, predisposition, we are basket cases. >> rose: from the genes. how come you are so ghft the work. >> this is the other part of the equation in a way in is exciting not just for women but men too. you are born as one neurologist with a i don't know crete you build other routes and those are the choices you make in life and the choices that claire and i have made in life are choices to

build our confidence so while it is part genetic it is also part what psychologists call volitional. >> rose: what is your confident level as parent. >> my confidence level is very high as a parent? >> rose: yours? >> mine is probably less high than katty's. >> rose: is confidence as a parent versus confidence as a person working outside of the home different? >> yes, women tend to be more confident as parent and more confident at home. >> rose: they believe it therefore they believe it. >> there is part of our confidence gap that has to do with society's values and the unlevel playing field and stereotype -- and sitting around a table as the only woman it affects you and something women still feel. >> rose: what did you find from athletics, from women basketball players? >> that was incredible. so we went to watch on a couple of occasions the basketball

team, professional basketball team in washington and i thought just watching them, of course these women are confident, it is extraordinary. and we sat with them afterwards, talked to them and, yes, they are confident to some extent, but they immediately started talking to us about comparing themselves to the men, when they have a bad game, it can be hard to just put a wall up and get over it quickly and. >> rose: is it lacking confidence or something else? >> they have a bad game and say well i had a bad game -- >> i think there is a difference in something that we are doing to ourselves. compared to what many men do to themselves we carry criticism with us for a lot longer and we let it knock us off course so while there are things society does to us, it is partly genetic, there are also things that i think women are doing we over think things, as claire said that is partly in our brains, our brains are not really wired for confidence

because we are constantly analyzing things. john seemed cross with me and a boss was a little irritated and we carry it for days and days and days. this is a one thing women really seize on when we talk about ruminating and the negative soundtrack and women do that constantly and that kills confidence. because it keeps you from acting. i think one of the many breakthrough wes had was a professor in ohio state that helped us define confidence as the stuff that turns thoughts into action. >> rose: indeed. >> and that made it so clear for us in terms of what is going on with women. because women will sit and think and think and think and often we miss the opportunity to act. >> rose: there are two things, one, the importance of confidence, period. >> right. >> rose: which is important for everybody. >> some of that is nurture. the children in school are treated slightly differently, from young, girls are given this idea that they should be good

girls, kind of disciplined and not jump into conversations and not run wild around the hallways in the classroom and they don't and get rewarded for that and then they carry on doing that, and there is is, we encourage perfectionism, which is damaging to confidence. >> the great quote, carol dwack. >> if life were one long grade school women would rule the world. >> rose: what happens in grade school. >> we are very good at listening to the rules, being quiet and conscientious, pleasing people and worrying about coloring within the lines and girls are rewarded from that from the earliest stages and we internalize this as something we value and take it at all all the way through college, girls are superstars academically and getting into college and get out of college that is not how the world works. >> it changes, somewhere along the rule the, along the way the rules change. >> in a professional space

things reward mr. the professional space is a certain amount to be political and certain amount to be able to promote yourself a certain amount to be confident about seizing opportunities and going for them and rocking the boat a little bit, those are the things that are not coming as naturally to -- >> rose: you know how many confident women i know and the confidence is just over the -- you know, it is huge, and confidence to the point of, you know, you wonder if they can back it up. >> of course not all women are lacking in confidence. of course there are over confident women and there are a lot of men who have said, what about us? >> rose: men are that bay too, by the way. >> yes, men who are underconfident. >> rose: but also this. kristine he guard. >> you talked to her, i mean this is one of my favorite women in the world. >> rose: yes. >> and a lot of other people. >> i interviewed her last week at the conference in washington, and she said to you, there are

moments when i have to go deep inside myself and pull my strength and confidence, background, history and experience and all the rest of it to assert a particular point. kristine la guard, a woman many people who would think who make a great president of france because she had been at the imf and before that finance minister and before that she ran a law firm and done it all. >> and broken barriers if this is confidence and this is something i learned the during the course of writing this book that all along the way you are going to have moments where things make you nervous or as kristine lagarde says where you need to summon your confidence is. the question is do you let that stop you from taking the next step and that is the crit fiscal, critical issue and i think in fact she made a very important point to us which is in trying to gain more confidence, women should not be trying to look only at men and male behavior.

>> rose: and don't let that be the pattern. >> she helped us recognize that, the female confidence may, in fact, look different than male confidence, it may not be about. >> rose: right. >> -- interrupting people or speaking first it may be about listening more but the bottom line is you still have to act,. >> rose: what kristine lagarde once said if it was president lehman brothers had been layman sisters we wouldn't have had the problem. >> we wouldn't have drove off the cliff so quickly. >> rose: that's because just of the notion of women have having i mean a lot of women think the world would be a better place if more women were ruling the world, we are, were in positions of institutional leadership because in a sense they would bring a whole different set of values but it would already have this sort of -- >> and that is what is so critical about this, charlie, there are women you know who are so confident that maybe they could be at the next -- at the very next level so even the most powerful women we found are

sometimes holding themselves back, and we agree, we need more women at the top. >> rose: yes. but you really believe that i mean you have cheryl sandberg who says someone get up and just wonder if i am fooling people and should i be here. >> and she said that and going into a peg meeting sometimes i feel like a fraud. imagine, you know lots and lots of very confident women. >> rose: yes. >> and i am sure -- >> lots of those women do you sometimes feel like cheryl sandberg like a fraud. >> rose: a lot of people feel that who are -- in the world of theatre we talked about this a lot there are people in the theatre who say i feel like -- >> racked with nerves, ill with nerves before they go on. >> rose: i am not sure -- i am prepared because the data is here to believe that it is true, that many more women that lack the kind of confidence that men have, rightly or wrongly because the data is there but also

believe that, you know, i just know, i mean a lot of people i just don't i can't imagine them not having the kind of confidence you have. >> you could have the reservations cheryl may have had and some men do that too. >> i think a lot get up in the morning thinking i am a fraud. >> but they don't -- >> rose: i got a break here and break there and they don't realize, you know, they think i am better than i am, all of that. >> i think we all feel that to some extent but women are more prone to ruminate on it and as katty just said let it stop us from acting but i think the other point you are making is really what is the good news in our book and that is that we found out that confidence can be learned. >> rose: how do you learn it? >> it is work. and this is what is so exciting too. you can't think it. there is no way to just have compliments pour in of. >> rose: you can't will confidence -- >> or. >> rose: or if you are trying

to run whatever the record is in the mile today, i will will myself to run the mile you have to practice. >> you risk and you fail and you risk and you succeed and you work and it is just that process over and over again, it builds up the experience as you have said talking about basketball lets you know you can take that shot, i mean, that was one of the basketball players we are interviewed said she had a horrible first season and then spent months perfecting one shot and she said even now if she hesitates she can tell herself i know i am going to make it because i have made this shots hundreds of times. >> rose: and the other thing is visualize making the shot too because you have. >> you know this, charlie, because you work hard at what you do, and a lot i think of building confidence is what psychologists call mastery. >> rose: yes. >> you repeat it, you repeat it and you repeat it and you don't let hurdles stop you from

carrying on. >> rose: i am also, and you are prepared to risk failure. >> and i think failure, women aren't. >> rose: do you think women, i mean i know you and know how much the idea of going to the south of france for a vacation is and how many weeks off you have taken and all of that stuff. >> it is all unnecessary. >> rose: no, but you spend a lot of time with your family. >> yes. >> rose: i know you visit your house and your kids. you know and you can just see how much you relish doing that. does that -- what does that do to confidence? >> i think, i mean, as we -- >> rose: very supportive family and very committed life to family. >> to me, my family life is an area where i feel very confident, so i do think -- >> rose: and working when you know your kids -- >> then it translates into other areas of my life too because it gives me a safety net. >> rose: where have you not had enough confidence? let's have specific examples where you didn't do what you should have done? should you be the anchor

of the cbs evening news or "world news tonight"? >> no. >> rose: with your moment? was there a moment? in which you said reach for it? >> no. >> you said, me, me, me. >> rose: why aren't you the host of good morning america? >> i realized at a certain point that -- >> rose: being a russian scholar like you were. >> well, i worked part-time right now for abc. >> rose: do you really? >> i do. and so -- >> rose: did you want to do other things like writing books. >> i like writing and having time with my kids so i made a conscious decision. >> rose: plus your husband. >> right as i made that decision, jay decided to work for the government. >> rose: yes. >> so now we are both broke but that is another story. >> rose: there is a big book coming up. >> i hope so. >> rose: another big book. >> i hope so, but i will say charlie recently i did this analysis just this morning after writing this book, no, i looked, i always had this inkling that i talked less than the guys on political shows when i would do this week for example, i had a feeling that oh i am sticking

into my lane. being a good girl, i did the math, sure enough, over all the shows, 30 percent less, i talked 30 percent less. >> rose: because you want to be a good girl. >> and i thought it is somebody else's turn. >> rose: and i would look pushy. >> >> came across charlie. >> rose: again, another study. my point is that -- >> the danger -- so the psychologist at the university of milan in italy, a big study on men and women sat them in front of a computer test looks like a rubric, rubik cube the women were way worse than the men and he found actually what was happening is women weren't answering half the questions so he goes back and now you actually have to answer the questions. you can't skip it. when they had to answer the questions, the women did just as well as the men. that is how we are holding ourselves back with lack of confidence. >> we just think we can't do it. >> rose: so when we look at all of this and does it apply

beyond -- what is the role, for example, of mentors? and people who can help give you a sense of your destiny? >> well, that is actually very important for women, because what is really interesting data, marie wilson who used to run the white house project told us at one point that all it takes, women are not -- it is a great anecdote she said, really, or a way of describing it, rather, a man will wake up and look in the mirror and naturally see a senator. women would never be so presumptuous, in other words, women just never think about putting themselves forward into politics. but all it takes and they have done research on this, is one person saying to them, you can do it, and so what we found is that the best -- the best role our mentors can play is giving women a push a district push or

a challenge to take a risk, not being supportive or listening or telling necessarily telling somebody that they are great. >> rose: what i am just trying to weed out of the conversation is all those people that i know who are constantly saying, me, me, me and male or female, constantly saying, me, me, me and about every dollar or every opportunity, constantly doing it, rather than making themselves better at what they do. you see what i mean? don't you know those people? >> yes. >> rose: constantly pushing, rather than saying look just do your job well, i don't mean this in terms of male or female, knowing that this is a conversation i was referring to you last night a couple of friends, look it would be great, you really have to work hard constantly, and to know that is not either confidence or the lack of confidence. it is some recognition that

achievement comes because of both inspiration and perspiration. >> yes. and confidence will come through working hard, particularly working hard at something you thought was just a little bit out of your reach. >> rose: exactly. and mastery, the word you use. >> yes. me, for example, i can read the news on television every evening, it doesn't test my confidence. >> rose: very well. >> but i have no idea if i can run a business. >> the idea slightly terrifies me. i will never know if i could do it or not unless i tried. >> she talked about this quite a bit. >> rose: you want to run a business. >> we should encourage katty to run a business. >> what kind of business do you want to run. >> i have no idea what i would like to run. >> rose: are you unhappy. >> no, it doesn't challenge my confidence in the way that i think to build confidence you need to go beyond your comfort zone and there is something that, it is funny because -- >> rose: maybe you should try

extreme sports. >> she does do extreme ports. >> that's what i do. extreme sports. challenge my confidence. >> we talked to an expert too that said there is something elemental about confidence, it is a kind of energy. >> rose: yes. >> to move toward things. i mean, it is not always about success. >> rose: i agree. >> and but i think there is something akin to the notion of flow, that you need the confidence is really the engine that gets you moving. >> rose: and "the confidence code" is important, it is in a sense to believe in yourself and constantly believe that there is no -- there is no impediment to you being able to do most things. >> and you may not always succeed but you can try and that is why i used the example it is not always about asking for the pay raise or going for the promotion or the next -- professional challenge i it cane as simple that somebody interesting in the room across

the other side who you would like to go talk to but feel nervous about it. >> rose:. >> and that's not a problem for you. >> or necessarily for you either. >> rose:. >> no but for a lot of people. >> mr. shy. >> rose: congratulations. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: it is a great pleasure. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org 

oceanographer, oceanograp . this is "nightly business report," with tyler mathisen and susie gharib. >> falling short, two tech titans, ibm and google report disappointing numbers, trending lower, what is the one key takeaway that investors need to know now? hiring, china, federal chair janet yellen, the fed chair sends a message to wall street, don't worry about interest rates. and slow moving sector, leading the way on wall street this year, all that and more tonight on "nightly business report" for wednesday. april 16th. good evening, everyone, we begin tonight with ibm and google. ey