>> rose: welcome to the programment we begin this evening with the controversy over donald sterling the owner over the clippers and the nba action announced today. >> i thought this was a tremendous day for adam silver sports and professional sports. we're always trying to see where sports fits in society, you know. even though jackie robinson when he ran out to first base in 1947 didn't just change baseball, he changed the country. and even though billy jean king was one of the greatest women leaders this country produced we kind of step back sometimes sports world versus real world. but this today was an example of how a true leader, and this is a guy whose only been on this job for three months, showed that you don't have to have experience to show passion, anger, character and do the right thing. and i really think that adam

silver, people were wondering how is he going to step up, was he going to hit this guy hard enough and he hit him with everything he had. >> rose: most of my program's this evening is devoted to the canonization over the week owned of two popes, pope john xxiii and pope john paul ii. >> this has led to focus on the chat lick church. are you worried people are not talking about other religion and other churches. it is wrong, it is francis, it is changed. >> all religion. >> is that right. >> one of the things they're excited about are his message. he's lifting up again to the whole world once again the idea that you can actually live together in peace, the whole world. >> he's trying to change the world of religion being the

cause of division and animosity to its true purpose of bringing together. >> and he's successful. people from different faiths, i'm sure they are doing the same thing you stop me and say -- and coming along with a patriarch of an orthodox church, he's going to jerusalem. >> you're telling me. where he's going to meet the art dock patriarch. my jewish neighbors in new york are estatic about these as are the orthodox. >> and the message around the world. the presumption today is that people should live in peace. that's a presumption being created. that peace is expected and the presumption -- >> that's ordinary. >> it's interesting when you use those two words about him, i would love to hear what words you would do, sincerity and simple. >> when people ask me across the world, what is it he's got.

i say there's no agenda there, simplicity and sincerity. what you see is what you get. >> i would agree with that completely. he doesn't have a new message, he's just showing everybody been to do it. it's not a gospel, this is the way you do it. and that's why people all around the world are saying, this is wonderful. you don't complicate simple. >> i didn't ask for this. a beautiful sermon today that could be given by a parish priest. it's what any of us would a prepared. >> even the way he does it, at the podium like you're in your parish and you just get up and you say what you want to say. >> by the way, he's kind of short, brief. >> rose: race in the nba and a canonization in rome when we continue.

>> there's a saying around here: you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look. captioning sponsored by rose communications

from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: today donald sterling was caught making racist statements and he was charged with $2.5 million fine. adam silver announced at a decision at a press conference this afternoon. >> effective immediately, i am banning mr. sterling for life from any association with the clippers' organization or the nba. mr. sterling may not attend any nba games or practices. he may not be present at any clippers' facility and he may not participate in any business or player personnel decisions involving the team. i'm also finding mr. sterling

$2.5 million, the maximum amount allowed under the nba constitution. >> rose: donald stirring is the longest tenure owner. it comes as they play the golden state warriors tonight in the first of the nba play-offs. there's no one better to come talk about this event which is much more than about sports but i'm pleased to have mike lupica here. assess this for me. help me understand the larger conthink adam silver performed brilliantly. >> i thought this was a tremendous day for adam silver sports and professional sports. we're always trying to see where sports fits in society, you know. even though jackie robinson when he ran out to first base in 1947 didn't just change baseball, he changed the country. and even though billy jean king was one of the great women leaders this country ever produced we all kind of step back sometimes and say sports world versus real world. but this today was an example of how a true leader and this is a

guy whose only been on this job for three months showed that you don't have to have experience to show passion, anger, character and do the right thing. and i really think that add unsilver, people were wondering how is he going to step up. was he going to hit this guy hard enough and he hit him with everything he had. >> rose: he seemed to wait until he made sure what he wanted to say and then said it. >> charlie when you came out you could see he was spitting mad. when he talked about how out raged he was and these hateful comments you knew nothing good was going to come for donald sterling and then he banishes him for life. we thought it would be a one year suspension. this is a lawyer. he clerked for kimble wood in manhattan and she says he was brilliant then. but what i was struck by today, this wasn't just the lawyer in adam silver.

this was the humanity in adam silver. he reacted to this the way you reacted to this the way we reacted when we heard these tapes and saw these comments. >> rose: this is what lebron jail said today. thank you for protecting our league. you're a greater leader bigger than basketball. duane way what a way to take charge and protect our league. mark had said some things about slippery slopes before. he said i agree 100% with silver's finding and actions taken against donald sterling. a couple more here i wanted to read. manic johnson commissioner silver showed great leadership. seems to be universal appreciation of him for the way he stepped forward. >> not just from the sport from right-thinking people. these comments weren't just an attack on blacks playing basketball they were an attack on all blacks. they were offensive to decent-minded people. because you know, however many

years it is since jackie robinson. 1954 is brown versus board of even cake. the civil rights the voting acts is 1964. so all this time later. i'm not shocked that people still think this way but i was heartened by the way the country reacted to this. because you know, donald sterling became the most famous guy, you know how that happens. one new cycle after another. but i thought the reaction of the country, the outrage from the country was tremendously inspired. >> rose: was immediate and essentially overwhelming that this is unacceptable and get rid of the guy. >> you know michael jordan doesn't like to get involved in political and i thought his statement over the weekend. he was really the first owner to come out. not only is he speaking as one of the great team athletes that this country ever produced, he's now speaking as a member of that club that now wants to kicking sterling out. there's going to be a fight. he will be dragged kicking and

screaming. i'm told he passed up a deal today where he could have handed it over to his wife and walked away. i don't think he wants to walk away. he's an attention hound. he's been a clown for a long time. >> rose: it's an interesting point. he's been all this for a long time. now is this simply the first time anybody put it on tape and put it out there or did everybody know that he was a man who thought the way he did? >> one of the thing that was referenced today was elgin baylor sued him for age discrimination and racial discrimination and he pulled back from the racial stuff okay. people wanted to know why didn't the league do something. well he lost that case. he lost that case. so -- >> rose: belgind. >> yes. what impressed me was he didn't go back to prosecute the past he prosecuted this offense. he did it swiftly and i think he did it honorably. i think people who watched him

today really wanted to stand up and cheer at the end of this because he did take the lead. we always say this is why these guys get the big bucks. and three months into this, he got this thing fell into his lap and gob smacked him the way it gob smacked us over the weekend. we wanted to see if he could step up and he did. >> rose: does it become in a sense a reminder to all of us what is present in american life and that therefore we have to be more vigilant in making sure we get it out. >> oh sure. >> rose: might it produce a dialogue about race. >> every time something like this happens, we hear that there's going to be a dialogue about race in america. that dialogue seems to last until the next new cycle and even everybody moves on, okay. one of the things you're hearing about this, one of the side issue is well he said this in private. and i thought that silver slam dunked that notion today. well it's public now. >> rose: the point is other

sports leagues sports owners are paying attention to this and asking do i have the same kind, at any point in my organization racism so pronounced. truly it will. it's like a signal to everybody in sports, we cannot take this stuff for granted. >> charlie an exnba player and very good one sent me a text today and said now the question is who is sterling going to take down with him. what does he know about what's happened in the old boy's club. what does he know about what's happened in that room. it's astonishing when you think about it. he's the guy because he has such seen seniority whose been vetting the new owners. >> rose: as to whether they're appropriate for the league before they come in. >> whether they were appropriate for the league. >> rose: there's also this. i think it was jeff but i may be wrong who said anybody who thinks he's the only incident of this kind of thing in the league is wrong. >> oh, without a doubt. and you've got on the other side

of this, you've got players who routinely use the n word, okay. and so there is, the rules seem to be often on this subject seem to be different for whites and black. as i said to a friend of mine who raised that issue today, we are constantly rewriting the rules in america. and by the way, people who don't keep up with the rule book are destined to take the kind of fall donald sterling took today. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> it's good to be here. >> rose: mike lupica sports writing for the new york daily news. back in a moment, stay with us. i was in rome over the weekend for the canonization of two popes. arrived on saturday and went to st. peter's square for people to be arriving to be part of this historic day in the life of the roman catholic church. never before have two former posts been canonized. these men are the best known popes one had a short tenure,

pope john xxiiird and pope john paul the second. anticipation for the historic day was building. we talked about delia gallagher senior editor for inside the vatican magazine. >> there's great anticipation when you walk around and excitement what's going to happen at this mass. >> rose: what's the significance? >> well, i think there are a number of significant things about it. but i think it boils down to the fact that these two hopes are loved by the people. they are the original people's popes. pope john xxiii before pope john paul ii and pope francis was the one who came after a pope pius the 12th who was regal and academic and aristocratic and john xxiii was short stout called the peasant pope and people say what's he going to do. >> rose: and then called the good pope. >> then called the good pope. and why? because he came out and could

talk to the people and he came out and he was the one who went to the hospitals and visit sick children. he was the one who went first to prisons and visited prisoners. so the thing that we see pope francis doing today he started. >> rose: there's a touch of pope john xxiii and pope francis. >> he loves him. it was said after cardinal was to be a runner up one of the card numbers said he said to him afterwards i would have chosen the name john had i become pope. besides it's interesting to see what happened in the meantime to change his mind but it's clear he has great admiration for pope john xxiii precisely because of that personal touch but because john xxiii who was not expected to do vention was the revolutionary movement. >> rose: to reform the church. >> he was able to do both sort of important things in the church but have the common

touch. >> rose: but then there's some resistance to vatican. and then came pope john paul ii somebody you knew and traveled with and covered. he was charismatic, he was exciting. but many believed him to represent the conservative wing, the opposite from john xxiii. >> he was conservative, he was traditional. there was one element about john paul ii that i think really mae him special in addition to his charisma which was his mysticism. he was a poet and poets are people who see differently, who believe in the invisible. and a mystic is a poet in a religious context. and i think that one thing that stood out to me with john paul ii any time he wasn't talking to anybody or doing something official he was praying. and if you walked up to him you

would see him moving his rosary and moving his lips and he was always praying. and i think he really had already sort of one foot on the other side. he really lived the consent of this communion of saints and people that are in heaven helping him on earth. i think he genuinely believed in that power and people made fun of him but he believed in the power of those things. >> rose: after his death there was a lot of talk. >> right at the funeral. >> rose: exactly. which meant in latin. >> it meant in italian make him a saint immediately. immediately. and actually that's the way they used to do it in the church right. they were saying the voice office people decides who is going to be a saint. and that's why i think yes it's easy to be cynical about the vatican making saints and trying to encourage catholics to devote themselves to say but really i

think it's about a recognition that the people want. people love these things. and john paul ii himself was one who loved saints. >> rose: he got fast tracked. normally he has to wait five years before the process began. >> that's a rule he himself set in motion allowing a mope to -- mope to decide if he didn't want to wait five years and start the process. i think benedict couldn't do anything but start the process really that early. that being said it's still a formal process they go through. they have to go through all of these writings, they have to interview everybody he's ever met. they interviewed all kinds of head of states and political figures as well as his neighbors. and then of course a miracle. it's a process. >> rose: with john xxiii there was a miracle and they waived the requirement. >> that's correct. and that's why i think pope francis is showing us there that this is a really important figure for him. because he decided to waive that requirement for the second miracle for john xxiii.

>> rose: we talked to monsignor ant me figuerido. he helped us understand the workings of the vatican where he works noe. >> two very different men pope john xxii came from a peasant family and always remember his roots. we had john paul ii a great academic a great teacher and really loved people. i think francis wants to bring two popes into our minds who loved people. because if the church doesn't reach people, charlie, it remains irrelevant. and i think pope francis is saying this is what really matters. two popes who loved people and that's why i want the church to go as well. >> rose: how does this pope make those of you who are part of the establishment of the vatican feel? >> it meeks me very excited about the future of the church. and i tell you why, charlie. i think sometimes the church can

be simply as an institution. full of bureaucracies, full of institutions, full of buildings. but the church is a living entity. i think that's what someone like st. francis believed in to rebuild my church. he wasn't talking about bricks and mortar about the institution he was talking about rebuilding the lives of people. and that's where the church needs to go. that's why pope john xxiii went, pope john second went and pope francis is going to. >> rose: how does the process of saint hood work. >> in the case of pope john xxiii and pope john second it's ordinary people. we were out in the square and people were shouting may he be a saint immediately. it was the same with john xxiii there was an air of sanctity because he was a good man and kind man. so it really begins from the grassroots but then there's a process obviously, there needs to be a process which we need to follow in order that the form

certainly in terms of miracles are followed. who decides whether that can be changed? the pope. and he has decided certainly in the case of john xxiii only one miracle is necessary. >> rose: so there weren't two. he says that's fine we'll waive the necessity of another one. >> actually the sanctity, charlie, the process sanctification belongs specifically to the holy father. it's an infallible teaching. it is he who decides in the end. he obviously knew these two men and he knew the order of their sanctity. we talk about the order of sanctity and said i know these two men are saints and i want them to be saints today for the church. >> rose: and to be a saint means what? >> to be a saint for me i think for many people means to persevere in the midst of great difficulties. i think we discovered this in john xxiii and john paul ii. they experienced it in their lives.

john the xxiii very simple family. he went through difficulties when he was ambassador in paris and turkey, he helped jews escape. certainly with john paul second we saw what he faced in a cultural level. in his very life through his own physical suffering. but they had the courage to go forward despite the difficulties. the church is recognizing that in them. and that gives us courage which means even the simplest person living in their homes proposes with a disabled person, perhaps with an old person perhaps with difficulties in their marriage, perhaps difficulties with their children can go forward believing that god helps them. that's why we declare them saints. >> rose: at 10:00 a.m. on sunday rome time the services ban with st. peter's full. hundreds of thousands spread along the road leading to it. it's estimated approximately a million people came to rome for this historic event. the first hour was about the canonization. shortly into the service pope francis declared the two men

saints as only a pope can do. watching the moment was former pope benedict the 16th. again an historic moment. two popes present while two popes were canonized. after the service at the north american college i met with cardinal timothy dolan archbishop of new york and cardinal donald wuerl archbishop of washington. >> he called him a pope of courage and john paul ii pope of family. >> we know for pope francis, marriage and family is a biggie. he talks about it a lot. and you know he chose as topic for the next two bishops, he's giving those and involved in it he chose the topic of marriage and family.

he declared john paul the second the patron of married couples and families recalling the extraordinary teaching, the wealth of teaching that john paul ii gave on marriage and family. i was happy to hear him say that not only because i have immense regard for the teaching of john paul ii and this beautiful notion of marriage and family but also because as you well know charlie there has been some rumors that perhaps francis is going to take a radical departure from the past and the church's teaching on marriage and family. i think all of us have known he can't change the substance of the teaching. but yet when he referred to john paul ii as in his mind being the pope of marriage and family, i think we all thought ahh there it is again a great continuity in the teaching of the church. there's hardly any rupture. it's a beautiful flow from jesus to the apostles down through the ages and he's continuing that. >> rose: this was his thing.

this historic canonization was all a decision by this pope. >> it was. >> rose: to what end do you think. >> well you're right in that it was his decision. and it was a surprise. now, it's no surprise that these two men are going to be saints. the surprise would be that this quickly and together. those were the two surprises. i think, he's a good teacher. you know he's a jesuit, he himself had years in the classroom. a good teacher knows you got to give signs, you got to use teachable moments, you got to use audiovisual aids. he thought look, we all know already that one of the things pope francis wants to do is bring the church together. he said we are argue too much. we bicker too much. we've got to give an example of love and unity and focus. and he knows shrewdly that they are somewhat called upon by different factions of the churches. they're patrons.

john xxiii is usually cited by those who you might call more progressive and more liberal. john paul ii more conservative or traditional. no, sir characterrures are groundless and enact rut but the perception is real. but what pope francis is saying i'm a bridge builder the oldest one and oldest titles from the pope from which we give pontiff that means bridge builder. i'm going to bring these sides together. i'm going to canonize them both hold them both up for emulation and folks learn from this. we're supposed to agree on stuff. >> rose: and it's a big church and we have room. >> you see those bernini reaching out for grace and bringing people in to christ and his church and that's what he's trying to do and he's doing it well. you're a church historian, that in fact part of what john paul did is to try to undo what john xxiii had done at

the second vatican. >> you're right. there are those who say that. there are also who say that john xxiiii would never have envisioned some of the more radical interpretations of the consult that he inspired. so you get different historical interpretations. what we do know is that both john xxiii and john paul ii are more or less the book ends of the second vatican council. john xxiii who was inspired by the holy spirit to call it sought it through the first delegate session died. john paul ii, who was there as a bishop and who implemented it during his 27 years pontifficate. and i thought john ii thought in some ways the council was being interpreted. but as far as the genius of the council and reform and rule of the consent he -- conc crept hs

all. >> we use, there's a beautiful latin phrase, the church always in need of reform, okay. always the church is being called to cleansing purification. reform. we see that in the new testament less than a couple years after jesus went back to his father the church was having crises and people like st. paul and st. james were calling him back this is the wrong way to go we have to remember what jesus intended. there's always reform and renewal. the most vivid time of reform and renewal in contemporary memory would have been the second vatican council 1962 to 65. and now we could be there again. it's almost like you always see charlie 50 years after a consult there's a time of turmoil and

anxiety and working out what the council meant. it could be the council of of 50 years. and now 50 yearses done. we've got a pope that says let's take a deep breath. most of the work of implementation is done. we've got a lot of bruised feeling and some feel the spirit on one side or the other. that's hold up these two great popes and let's get to work. >> rose: is it unlikely to be changed if you open up the discussion and say why is there so much opposition to this doctrine coming up as you look forward, that somehow there might develop a different attitude. >> yes, attitude could be a good word. attitude could be a very good word to use. now, you know what, though. when you look, you're a student of what's going on in the life of church. you don't a lot of times see a

disagreement about doctrine if you talk about the trinity and the nature of jesus christ. they're troubled by the implications of doctrine, the interpretation of doctrine. >> rose: and you can change that. >> that you could try to change, infallibility. how far does the extend. >> now here, and this is interesting, charlie, because here you got a pope that is trying to diminish in some ways the prerogatives of the papacy. he wants to emphasize he's one of us, he's the bishop of rome. but yet is leaning upon a papal prerogative and he's been waiting for centuries. he says i like peter, he was one of the founders of the jesuits. give me a paper, he's a saint now, okay. in some ways -- >> rose: my kind of guy. >> in some ways he says let's get this done.

doing it though i think charlie. what he's tapping into is what we call the sense of the faithful. he's a savvy who holds his head to the ground and he's saying it's almost ma miraculous thata man like john xxiii is a saint and i need to recognize that. that's not bad he's kind of got that savvy sense about him. >> rose: and symbolism and all of that. >> yes. >> rose: so he's got this cardinal that was second we believe. >> that's what he said. >> rose: and he's selected. of you said i knew he was a

pastor but i did not know he was a rock star. so my question, did he, something happen to him when he became pope or do we simply magnify those qualities of people knew about him. what is it that has made him so much at the center of the conversation in the world in one year. >> you are on to something big time. we cardinals are not surprised in the man that we got. we can see that he listened as we were talking in those ten days before the conclave as to what we thought we needed in the next pope, he's doing it. we're not surprised he's doing it, we're surprised he's doing it with such beautiful effectiveness. now, you could be on to something. i know a fellow who is very close to jorge and he saw him at world youth day in rio rio

de janero -- i can't expect all the viewers to share this part. for me as a man of faith there's something called the carism of office, carism being a free gift from god to give the grace of somebody to carry a burden. and i think he's got it. we need somebody. if he didn't have the acclaim, popularity that he's got, i don't know if he would be able to be as effective. >> rose: and the reinforces you. as some people say the office makes the man or woman and in some case the man or woman meeks the office not speaking about religious but speaking about institution. there's the impact of the office changing the person or the person changing the office. >> he's doing a little bit of both. he's risen to the occasion.

but i think this is what you're getting at. he's not allowed himself to become a captive of the papacy. that's a big temptation. there's a massive infrastructure. the minute, i told you the story, haven't i. >> rose: i don't know. >> the day after he was elected, protocol is his first mass is the sistine chapel at the college of cardinals. we cardinals go in vest. he's not one of us anyone. we see the side room where he's the vest. he comes in carrying his alb to wear and the handlers about a dozen of them surround him and say holy father you vest over here. he says i'll vest with the cardinals. he sits down two from me and starts to vest. they crowd around him telling him what he needs to do at mass. he with a gracious smile says fathers thanks, please stay close but i've been saying mass for 50 years, i know what i'm doing. in other words, i'll be okay. >> rose: yes, you told me that before.

>> there's an example in a very simple way of saying, if i need you i'll call. i'm sure grateful you're there. >> rose: there's also this. a person's capacity to rise may very well be in part produced by the need of people. they recognize that someone reflects what they have been yearning for. >> you know a case could be made that jorge bergoglio which is one of the more calculated ise's in the world say they have been blessed and have done a stellar job reclaiming the truth of doctrine. bravo, thank god they've done it. now i can kind of rereassert the tender merciful embracing side. he would be the first to say john paul ii and john benedict

can do that as well. i can do a balancing act working on the accomplishments they did and reasserting the churching theological doctoral and spiritual riches. now i can say let's keep that and keep the mat up and let's work on the tender merciful embrace inside. >> rose: it's much more of the pastor of the beauty of love. >> i think our friend, you know john allen said it well and he's the world's parish priest e you know we can't sell john paul ii. we think of john paul in his last 11 years when he was fragile. remember he starved the world when he was visiting parishes going out and meeting people all over the place when he traveled the globe. he turned the office of the successor of peter the pope from the ceo of the church universal

to the world's pastor. bill graham said he's the world's pastor. and i think francis is recovering that. >> rose: here's the question. does growing sense of him at the center of world conversation whether it's income inequality whether it has to do the relationship between intolerance for people and opinions and all of that. there's also the question of the pope as a principal explainer of value who looks at pope john paul ii did at the time of the fall of communism. >> yes, and played a row. the church plaíqqyes. >> rose: is the pope prepared to play a role. >> i think he is. >> rose: on the political stage of the world. >> i think he is. the pope's coinage, he has no currency to flow, no troops to send no borders to protect. his coinage is simple values, true, beauty and goodness. this pope while he does everything to try to diminish

what you might call the clout of the papacy, it's now sky rocketed under him. why? because he's returning to what the church does best. values. human dignity. the sacredness of human life. the defense of the voiceless. he's returning to that and his stock goes way up. and now he's becoming a major layer. >> rose: the more your stock goes up the more influence and leverage you have on a range of issues you might not have if you had not connected to the world. >> sure, sure. >> rose: might you speak out on ukraine? >> yes, i think he would. now there's always when the pope speaks out you always got kind of the moral cerebral ideal. he's done that already, a call for dialogue, let's respect things. does a pope get more pointed. sometimes in the past popes have. remember john paul in the

croasia serbia. if you get involved in the intricacies you could end up hurting us and that's what the pope always always has to weigh. i get it sometimes when i travel. if i go to india, if i go to africa, i'll let one bishop come in and say you dolan are the archbishop of new york, you were as my base in the conference we need you to go home and speak out loudly about the persecutin we're under going. the next bishop says please don't say anything because it could get worse and you don't know what to do. you say i want to listen to both of my brothers here and the pope magnifies that by a thousand and that's why you got the pope hearing every day. it takes a man of prayer and

prudence and listening to know what to do. >> rose: is it hard to imagine that this mope might accomplish. >> remember when john xxiii was the same age when he was elected. he says i don't have much time so let's get going. within two months after his election he summoned the council. i doubt francis is going to do that but i think francis knows, i think francis knows that his time i hope, i say it at the top of my voice he want him to reign as long as possible. he's a practical man who says i'm going to take it day by day but there's a sense of urgency here. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you charlie. glad you're in rome. >> rose: i'm happy to be in rome any time. >> i say that too. >> rose: i'm saying it to my companion. >> not bad. thank you charlie. it's good to be with you. >> rose: pleasure. >> rose: this was an historic day we're unlikely to see again.

what are the chances in the lifetime of anyone moving into the future that there would be a pope, a retired pope sitting together at a canonization of two popes both of whom reigned in the lifetime of many of the people who were in that square. this is not just an historic moment it's a unique moment that's not going to be replicated. >> rose: what does it represent. >> i says what it says to the world is the discourse of today is being focused by those four human beings, those four popes. the whole, beginning with john xxiii peace on worth and all through the pontiff jcate of john paul ii we should life together in most we should find fellowship and face an

interminute cull relationship and now you have pope francis repeating it in the presence of benedict. maybe it will be the historian a hundred years from now that will confirm this. what's happened is the whole discourse, human discourse where the presumption is wedjhould be be at peace. the presumption is we should respect one another and live together. that's all new. that's all new in human history as we're seek it unfold today. >> rose: so conflict is not necessarily what we should assume. we should assume peace and dialogue and understanding. >> yes. and respect and tolerance. tolerance doesn't that come across all of what francis was saying. it's also a big part of john paul ii. if you are going to have a world full of people coming out of different ethnic traditions,

different faith traditions, different experiences, living together, then shouldn't pluralism have as a component part. >> rose: now it's being characterized and i'm asking a question here, john paul conservative, john xxiii more liberal. on the other hand some people say that it was john xxiii who spoke so much to francis. >> i think what is there is a continuity. john started the council owned the second vatican council. the paul that somehow when you start to take a fresh look at how the gospel is being presented, john paul the second spent almost 27 years going all over the world trying to do that. and the message was always the same remember that god loves you and you can have a relationship with god. and on outcome francis who

smiles like john xxiii but who has a message very much like john paul ii, a message of peace, a message over we need to find dialogue, we need to find communication. and what captures it all for me, and this is like a capstone, is francis is simply saying here's how you do it. >> rose: he seems to be a man who comes to the papacy with a sense of urgency, number one. he's 76, 7, 8. >> 8. >> rose: comes with a sense of urgency and secondly comes with a sense of being unafraid to challenge the church where he thinks it needs to be challenged. >> i think that's a absolutely true. i think how he is able to do that is he is deeply rooted

spiritually and he's deeply immersed in the tradition of the church. so he has a 2000 year tradition out of which he speaks. and he seems to be so comfortable in that tradition. and has a freedom, a freedom that only comes when interiorly you're at peace with god and yourself. >> rose: but the church is also in its working a political place. there are people who debate each other within the church. and he seems to welcome that. >> i think that's one refreshing sign. what he's saying is we need, we need to be looking all of us, we need to be looking and seeing what's, what each one of us experiencing in the presence of god's spirit in our lives. and how does it relate to the received tradition, the received

message, the gospel. there's parameters. but at the same time he's encouraging everybody to examine how are we doing this. >> rose: you have a very powerful job, as you know. i mean you're the person who is going to help select the new bishops. you help define the church by the people that you and others select. how do you handle that? >> well, one of the things that pope said to us, he came to a meeting of the conjugation. >> he says i will assume they are well prepared theologically. i presume, you need to presume as well when you look at their background that they are well

presented and they have to have the spirit of a pastor. i think those of us who grew up in parishes where there was a priest who simply cared for the people. that's what comes to mind. so he's asking not that we change the face of the church but that the -- >> rose: if you're changing the future of the church you're changing the future of the church. >> changing the direction of it. >> rose: they will choose the future church. >> but isn't that what john xxiii said when he called the council? and you mentioned earlier and i think you're right on target there. there's a continuity between john xxiii and francis. that continuity includes all those popes in between that have refined the message. >> rose: what's going to be hardest for francis to>> i thing

challenge keeping the phone actual going and keeping everybody together and on board. what he's trying to do is what john xxiii called the up-aiding of the church. and francis seems to have taken that to heart. we have to find a way of getting the pleaj out. he said something that i find really beautiful. he said the message is not that complicated. i think that's what he's saying to us. >> rose: who is opposed to him in the church? >> i don't know if there's opposition to him. >> rose: go slow, go different. >> but any time you begin to refocus, that means that there are for some, there's some things out of focus. and the goal of this pope is to help all of us refocus on the

needs of the poor so there can be universal peace. when you start doing that, you challenge everybody to refocus their lens a bit. and that can be hard. >> rose: but also there are issues that have made church attendance declining. why is that? >> well, i think you have to put that in the larger perspective. >> rose: religion. >> yes. the great culture shift. i'm talking now about the whole western world. we've watched a cultural revolution, a social revolution, the sexual revolution, an economic revolution. all of these things have been woven together since the 60's. and the result has been a heavy heavy emphasis on the secular as if issues are really all about what's going on right now.

along comes a series of popes that we just canonized and one who does it very well today francis saying folks, there's more. there's more. what i'm hearing and seeing certainly in the arch diocese of washington, lots of young people saying you know what francis is saying touches me, what francis is saying rings a bell, touches a cord. the message again isn't a different message. we're familiar with the message but now we're saying you know, there's a credibility to this. because he lives it. >> rose: what do you make of the quote that he's made when he says who am i to judge. what does that say? >> i think it says -- >> rose: there are more questions the church judges.

>> the church judges because god has placed a law in our hearts. it's been articulated in the commandments and jesus said this is the way you should live. you should be merciful, you should be compassionate you should give drink to the thirsty. there is already a moral law. the pope is saying i'm not going to go around and make judgments about where you stand in relation to that law, you should be making that judgment. and you should be addressing in your own heart how do i relate to god. how do i relate to my neighbor in a way that reflects what god calls us. >> rose: before judging you should judge yourself. >> isn't that what jesus imhimself said. don't judge lest you be judged. we are called to look at that form. >> rose: how has that changed. women in the church.

abortion. same sex marriage. clearly there will be change in terms of how the church comes down hard on predatory sexual abuse, i assume. but will all these things change significantly because of this pope? >> i don't think we're going to see so much change in something say for example as abortion. some things are absolutely intrinsic to our human experience. and my right to life is absolutely intrinsic to who i am as a human being because it doesn't come from anybody else but god. we even say that in our own founding documents in the united states. we have these inalienable rights. that's not going to change. but one of the things that i

think is to be more compassionate with people who have found themselves in situations. >> rose: how about this. to find out why so many people seem, why these issues seem to be so divisive and to find out why there is so much push back on the church doctrine. >> one of the reasons why i believe is because there is so strong another current out there. is secular current that is the dominant voice in our society today doesn't see these specific values that we're talking about. and so there's always going to be push back. and remember, every disciple lives in the midst of the world where disciples and citizens at the same time. so we're hearing all this influence around us and that's why we keep going to church to keep hearing what did jesus say. what should be my response through a secular world that says no, no, this is the way you

should do it. >> rose: and he seems to have said look i understand these things but they're there but my immediate effort here is to remove and engage in the pastoral role. >> he said so clearly, hasn't he, before you get into all these areas where there's contention, shouldn't we start by inviting people to come to know god in the first place. and if you come to know god you realize you're loved. god is love and he sent his son into our world to show us what love is all about. francis' message is very simple. start with knowing you're loved. there are a lot love people on this planet who have never experienced that. >> rose: thank you. >> you're welcome, you're welcome. thank you. good to be with you.

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