captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions >> woodruff: the violent storm that's been tearing through the south this week has now dumped record-breaking amounts of rain on the region, stranding cars, turning roads into rivers and threatening homes. good evening, i'm judy woodruff. >> ifill: and i'm gwen ifill, also ahead this wednesday. an execution in oklahoma, gone horribly wrong raises new questions about what happens at the end of death row. >> woodruff: and in seattle, paul solman samples the mood of business owners and employees. as the city considers boosting pay for many low-wage workers. >> in the end, people on both

sides of the cash register are torn with regard to hiking the minimum wage to $15. >> woodruff: those are just some of the stories we're covering on tonight's pbs newshour. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> and by the alfred p. sloan foundation. supporting science, technology, and improved economic performance and financial literacy in the 21st century. >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you.

thank you. >> ifill: the worst flooding in decades literally drowned parts of the florida panhandle and coastal alabama today. the deluge was triggered by the same front that's spawned tornadoes and killed at least 37 people this week. >> ifill: streets turned into rivers, and cars into islands, as it started pouring yesterday, from gulf shores, alabama to pensacola, florida, and didn't stop. >> i came down about 6:00 this morning to check on everything. and the water was probably up to the sidewalk over here next door. and that was the first time in 29 years, i've never seen it get this deep before. the water was waist-high in some places, and still rising. >> we've had up to 22 inches of rain in the panhandle. >> ifill: that's roughly a third

of pensacola's average rainfall for the whole year. and florida governor rick scott told today of urgent appeals for help. >> we've had flash flooding. we've had about 300 requests for evacuations. we've been sending vehicles there. we've sent 24 high water vehicles from the national guard. fish and wildlife is there with 31 vehicles, 13 boats. i declared a state of emergency earlier this morning for 26 counties. >> ifill: the flooding wasn't limited to the coast. in tuscaloosa, alabama, well inland, low-lying areas were swamped. >> i've never seen this much water in my life. i mean, i know i'm young but this is a lot of flooding for alabama. >> ifill: some parts of the state saw up to 26 inches of rain in 24 hours alone, more than some hurricanes bring. the slow-moving system also brought powerful thunder and lightning storms overnight, knocking out power to thousands. the heavy rain also reached to

the atlantic. llewellyn jones lives in wilson, north carolina. her basement was flooded when a nearby creek overran its banks. >> we had about four and a half feet of water in our driveway. it was over the hoods of both our cars. probably a good three feet in the house that turned our freezer over, washer, dryer. >> ifill: from there, the storm system pushed north, dumping as much as five inches of rain across parts of the mid-atlantic and into the northeast. >> ifill: for more on the flooding, we spoke a short time ago on the phone with ashton hayward, the mayor of pensacola, florida. welcome, mayor. as of 6:00 p.m. eastern time, we're hearing that there's been one reported death so far. how extensive would you say the damage is in pensacola? >> well, gwen, you are getting total up in dollars close to the $100 million mark or more. we've been rescued people late to the evening last night and obviously to the early morning. flooding that we're not used to,

gwen. as you know we're used to the hurricanes but not the flooding. it's kind of an anomaly for us. >> ifill: it's an anomaly for us to talk by phone in an american city because of power outages all over the city. how extensive would you say the power outages are? >> we've had close to 35,000 people without power in the city and the county. they are restoring power now but it's been challenging. we're making it happen. >> ifill: and road closures, are people able to get around at all? >> people are getting around now, gwen. there's specific areas. one of the highest points in the state of florida, state road 90 that washes out. that's been highway 98 has been very challenging. we had the governor here all day. there's specific areas washed out that we're taking care of right now. >> ifill: you said the governor has been there all day. what kind of help are you getting so far from the state or federal

the federal government? >> from the state i saved phonecall at 4:28 this morning and the governor had the national guard bringing vehicles that can get into high water, the dot, department of transportation, and more manpower with the florida highway pa trel to assist with us. >> ifill: do you have any sense yet, mr. mayor, of how many residents displaced as a result of the storms and flooding? >> probably over 1,000 gwen. we don't have exact estimates right now. it's a guess. we'll have people out of their homes days maybe weeks inch our unusual is this amount of rain in a short period of time? >> you are talking about 22-24 inches in less than 24 hours. the storm started at 4:45 central time and continued and continued. and then it sat over pence coalal. we were hoping it would move due

east at 235 miles per hour but it hesitate and stopped and dumped constantly all night. we were concerned about a tornado. that never landed. and then the rain continued and that's when the flooding started happening. >> ifill: are the waters beginning to recede? >> they are beginning to recede right now. that's why people are able to get out. we're advising people to stay off the roads and people have been listening because they've been done that path of hurricanes. people are all listening but the waters are receding, thank god. >> ifill: mayor ashton hayward, we wish you all the best staying dry. thank you for >> ifill: a train carrying crude oil derailed and caught fire today in downtown lynchburg, virginia. the they said some of cars were full but it's unclear how much. last year a train exploded in quebec beck canada killing 47

people. the dow jones industrial average closed at an all-time high after making up losses from earlier in the year. on the day the dow gained 45 pints to finish near 16581. the nasdaq rose 11 points to close at 4114 and the s&p 500 added five to finish just short after 1884. in ukraine there were more signs the government is losing its grip on eastern portions of the country. corussian gunmen seized the city hall in the city of horivka. in kiev ukraine's acting president conceded authorities have failed to halt the unrest. >> law enforcement agencies, departments of police and security services in these regions are unable to fulfill their duties to protect the citizens. they are helpless in these issues. futhermore some of the units assist or are in cooperation with the terrorist groups.

>> ifill: in washington 19 republican senators introduced legislation calling for broader, tougher sanctions to punish russia for the interference in ukraine. the civil war in south sudan is on the verge of famine. the united nations official warned today more than one million people fled the violence at the start of crucial planting season. she said she's appalled neither of the two warring leaders seems concerned by the looming disaster. violence overshadows election day in iraq as people headed to the polls today to cast ballots in parliamentary elections. at least five people died in independent attacks. jonathan rugman filed this report. >> reporter: it's the kind of democracy saddam hussein would have never allowed. but in a country now racked by sectarian violence, iraq goferred for eight years by nouri al maliki from the shia

majority, a man who rarely smiles. he voted early today casting this election as a referendum on his war against terror. >> i wish to see a huge turnout. god willing, we'll celebrate the success of this election and defeat terrorism and those who bet the election would be postponed. >> reporter: in parts of anbar province there's no eaks today but a full scale sunni insurgency. these men so determined to kill iraqi shia that even al qaeda is considered not extreme enough for them and now the i ask haddists are trying to advance the capital. this is the abu ghraib district 20 miles from the center of baghdad. last week the violence and tenseified. this was a suicide bombing which killed 31 at a shia election rally in baghdad.

in the center of capital today cars were banned. sunni extremists have threatened to kill anyone who votes. mr. malaki, we'll probably see him releected but not with a clear majority. a divisive figure in a bitterly divided country. the election is a day of change, a day of prosperity and freedom. we hope to get rid of sectarians and those who are corrupt. >> reporter: 22 million iraqis are eligible to vote with the first result tomorrow though forming a government could take longer than that. >> ifill: today's voting marked the first parliamentary elections since u.s. troops withdrew from iraq in 2011. back in this country, the federal reserve is winding back its economic stimulus program a bit more. central bank policymakers announced additional cuts in

their bond-buying efforts today. they said the economy shows signs of rebounding from the effects of a severe winter. final figures are in for the federal rescue of general motors, and it cost the government $11.2 billion dollars. the bailout's inspector general released the number today. overall, the government spent about $50 billion to save g.m., in return for 60% of the automaker's stock. the treasury department sold the last of the shares in december. still to come on the newshour: new questions about carrying out the death penalty, after a botched execution; how businesses and workers in seattle are reacting to the minimum wage debate; assessing the obama foreign policy doctrine, and whether it's working; and one journalist's account of how same-sex marriage ended up at the supreme court. >> senate republicans today successfully blocked a bill that would have raised the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour.

that would have been a boost from the current minimum of $7.25. you're economics correspondent paul solman has been sampling opinions opinion on raising the minimum wage in seattle where it is already higher than the federal limit tsms part of his reporting making sense of financial news. >> reporter: third wednesday of month homeless cooking day at seattle's st. cloud's restaurant. volunteers bring fresh produce. the owner takes care of main course and together they cook up some 500 restaurant quality meals for seven area shelters. i look at the homeless problem, and i do not know what to do about it but i know they are hungry, so we feed them. >> reporter: is liberal john platt on board with the pending $15 minimum wage. i can't even fathom it. >> reporter: five miles north in the university district the original dick's drive-in a small

local chain and seattle icon founded by dick in 1956, now run by son jim and granddaughter jasmine. dick is most as famous for its benevolence towards employees as for burgers, shakes and fries. they start worker as the $10.25 an hour well above the state's minimum wage which is highest in the nation. it offers merit rate, bonus pay and. >> 100% employer paid health insurance. >> employer paid dental. >> a smoke cessation program. >> even a scholarship program $22,000 over for years. they are staunch supporters of the less advantaged here but a $15 minimum wage? >> you are hurting those very people struggleling --

struggling now. >> reporter: finally palace kitchen. owned by multiple james beard award winner tom douglas who made headlines when he raised the wage from all of the back of the house workers from dishwashers to chefs. >> we were talking and talking for a couple years about somehow respecting the profession. my wife and i decided to try and kickstart our kitchens to a $15 minimum wage for cooks. >> reporter: presume bly he supports the $15 proposal. >> it makes me nuts. >> reporter: three progressive businesses in an industry that, get this, ploys 10% of the u.s. work force accounts for 50% of all americans working at or below minimum wage. though with wait staff below is before tips.

and yet they are all conflicted. >> it seems like oh, man. >> reporter: that's because these restaurants like many businesses feel whip sawed by market pressure on the one hand, moral pressure on the other. as someone whose business often doubles as a local relief agency john platt is seeing the most pain. >> i would call it a tax. you want to raise minimum wage, you pay more to go out to east. so far so much the conversation has been about the people deserve. this are the people with money in their pockets ready to say, sure, i put into my budget another couple how to a year to do out to -- couple thousand dollars a year to go out to out. the reaction will be whoa. >> reporter: at dick's drive-in at least customer opinion was less than define active. >> time to raise minimum wage. >> reporter: would you pay

more for a hamburger? >> yes. >> i think it's a bad idea. >> reporter: why? >> you have to learn a skill or trade before i expect to get paid a full wage. >> reporter: would you pay more money to have the wage lifted some? >> what jobs put by the wayside? what happens to individuals here. >> reporter: individuals like annie who worked at dick's for a decade earning a bachelor's degree by the way. >> i would be swimming in student loans without their help. >> reporter: they makes $13.50 and isn't she wants a legislated raise. >> it would be nice to make $1.50 an hour but everything is going to go up to compensate for how much the minimum wage is going to go up. >> reporter: dick's owner say a $15 minimum wage would raise their labor costs $1.5 million and that in addition to raising prices they might have to cut

benefits so the family wants any new minimum wage law to take total compensation into account. >> for me a smart minimum wage would take into account benefits. businesses like ours providing scholarship and health insurance you should get credit for that when you look at what you are paying employees. >> reporter: high end restaurants want a credit for tips. while most states let restaurants pay wait staff a subminimum wage as low as $2.15 an hour in some places, assuming tips are the real income source, washington is one of only eight states that does not. at palace kitchen says tom douglas. >> waiters make $10 minimum wage and $30 to $40 in tips. a full-time waiter in a busy house could make easily $75,000

a year. >> reporter: but the raise is for those waiters that scrape by and fears that the exceptions to the law will multiply or be manipulated by employers. this city counselor. >> they want to talk about what they call a credit which means if you are a tipped worker then you are hard earned tips will count as wages [audience boos] >> reporter: but for tom douglas a no tip credit $15 minimum will force him to raise prices and likely lose profits. >> i don't have the margin to just absorb the difference in pay. at the end of the day it's going to come down to the customer. the customer is going to vote to either go out to eat or not. that's not one side or the other. it's just reality. that's the facts. we'll find out what happens. >> reporter: it's not just the restaurant owners that don't know the unintended

consequences. >> it would be amaze a-- amazing to earn $15 an hour. >> reporter: she says -- >> my boss may not be able to pay more $15 an hour. i could lose my job and not be able to live. >> reporter: on the end both are torn with regard to hiking the minimum wage to $15. >> the studies who say it doesn't depress spending or something like. that we know we're speculating raising it 60%. it's a wildly different number than has ever happened before. you are scared. i'm very scared, yeah. >> reporter: so are a lot of people in restaurants these days and plenty of other cities in seattle. >> ifill: read more from restaurant owner john platt about why he thinks seattle is being too hasty to get behind a $15 minimum wage. that's on our making sense page.

>> woodruff: in oklahoma last night, an execution went terribly wrong after the state tried a new, untested combination of drugs in what was supposed to be a lethal injection. thirty-eight-year-old clayton lockett, convicted of shooting a 19-year-old girl and watching as friends buried her alive, wound up dying from a heart attack in what onlookers described as a gruesome process that took far longer than expected. as a result, the execution of another convicted killer, which was supposed to take place two hours after lockett's, was put on hold by oklahoma's republican governor. today, the white house press secretary deplored what happened: >> we have a fundamental standard in this country that even when the death penalty is justified, it must be carried out humanely. and i think everyone would recognize that this case fell short of that standard. >> woodruff: later in the day, oklahoma governor mary fallin said the state is launching an

investigation. she said it will try to determine lockett's cause of death, whether the department of corrections followed appropriate protocols and make recommendations to improve standards going forward. but governor fallen also defended the state's death penalty law. >> he had his day in court. i believe the legal process worked, and i believe the death penalty is an appropriate response and punishment to those who commit heinous crimes against their fellow men and women. >> woodruff: we turn now to a while the state keeping with the constitutional requirement not be cruel and usual. we turn to deborah denno a professor aidd fordham universis

school of law in new york and roy englert who has defended kentucky's lethal injection law before the supreme court. also joining social security a reporter who has been covering this story cary aspinwall of the tulsa world. let me begin with you. you were in the building when the execution was supposed to take place. what -- and you were not in the room to watch it, but you were nearby. what did you see? what was the reaction of those who were there at the time? >> we were all in the media center which is just adjacent to where the h unit is, where they house the death row inmates and execution chamber is. we were all waiting. they take the media witnesses to the unit in minivans just around the corner. normally those minivans return with the media witnesses. if the execution starts at 6:00, they are back at 6:30 at the

latest even going through security and everything. as we were waiting in the media center as 6:30 rolled by. 6:45 and then 7:00, we began to become very concerned about what was going on in there and what -- in this case my editor and our peers in the media and everyone was witnessing. >> woodruff: did you talk to some of the people who witnessed what happened afterward? >> yes, we immediately started reporting what they had seen and what they had done. as a media witness pool, they ask you to come back and report to the other members what happened. a lot of us set to watch the 8:00 p.m. execution that was supposed to take place but didn't. that's the one i was there to witness. we reported what they had seen and done. they were rushed out of there with the curtain closed. they didn't know where he stood, if mr. lockett was still alive. if he was being worked on or rushed to the hospital. they were just reporting what he had seen and he was on the gurney as late as 6:30, 6:39

still writhing, grimacing, able to lift his head and shoulders and at this point he was supposed to be heavily is a dated. >> reporter: and did the reporters and others who witness this compare it to other executions they've seen? >> yes, they d. and we all did. i have witnessed several in oklahoma myself and none of them have ever been like that. some of the people who witnessed mr. lockett's had never seen an execution before and this was their first one. but we had several veterans there including my editor, who witnessed several, and this was unprecedented in terms of lengths and what happens once they gave the drugs. >> woodruff: i'll bring in professor deborah denno, at fordham university law school. what is your understanding of what happened here? what went wrong? >> it's hard to know until they have an independent investigation of what went

wrong. it seems clear this was not what was supposed to happen. most lethal injections take place, if they are done correctly, within four or five minutes. you won't have the writhing that was described or an inmate shows signs of conscious awareness as mr. lockett was doing. this was not supposed to happen. >> woodruff: roy englert, what injure sense of it? we know there's a debate in the state of oklahoma before this happened. the court's ruling one way, the governor pushing back and a lot had to do with the fact that it was a combination of drugs that hadn't been tried before. >> there will have to be an investigation into what went wrong. the preliminary report was that they had difficulty finding a vain or -- vein or a vein exploded. it a known danger with the first drug. that having been said mr. lockett lived 15 years after killing his victim and we're

worrying about 40 minutes versus 4 minutes for the execution. he it needs to be kept in -- >> woodruff: are you definedding what happened here? >> of course not. the governor did the right thing but putting off the 8:00 p.m. execution and ordering an investigation. >> woodruff: dennis weimann, is there a way to ensure this -- deborah denno, is there a way to ensure this never happens? >> there shouldn't have had the seek six it's pretty clear this incident should never have happened and would not have happened if the attorneys were given proper information. it's important to separate the execution process from the death penalty it is. it's clear this mr. lockett was guilty what he did but nothing should happen like this as a form of punishment. >> woodruff: what do you mean when you say the attorneys were given more information? >> if the attorneys had known

the source of drug, they could have seen if it was tested or expired? these are important questions to know whether or not it's inhumane. doesn't stop there. who performed this execution? what were there qualifications? all of this say big veil of secrecy that should not exist. it should be a transparent process. >> woodruff: roy englert, we know a number of states keep it a secret about what drugs are used in execution. why isn't this a more transparent process? >> i don't know. i'm not a defender of secrecy about the drugs used in executions. >> woodruff: but it -- that's part of the -- what is -- >> my understanding -- my understanding of what probably went wrong here is that it was the insertion of the intravenous needle into the arm or vein that

probably wenting wrong. it probably doesn't have have anything to do with the drug used but that should be investigated. >> woodruff: were the reporters when witnessed what happened, were they able to shed any light at what point things seemed to go wrong? what i read today the process of putting the drug in that was a sedative was supposed to happen first. and the man being executed was declared unconscious but then after another drug went in was in things to start go wrong? >> yes, according to their policy, after the the first drug, the sedative, is inserted and pushed into his system they are supposed to wait five minutes to make sure he is unconscious before administered the second and third steps. they maintain that the second and third steps didn't start

until after seven minutes. the members of media and witnesses say he was clearly conscious. he could lift his head and shoulders off the gurney. they heard him say "man" before the gurney was closed. unconscious inmate ms. previous executions did not lift their heads. they were asleep, out, unaware of what was going on. this was different in that regard. it was disturbed for them. and then they were frustrated because the curtains were lowered and a few minutes after that they were rushed out of the room and not allowed to see anything after that pint. we don't know what happened in there. >> woodruff: roy englert, does this change the assumption by those who argue that lethal is a -- can be a humane way to carry out an execution? >> no, it does in not, judy. the lethal injection, everyone

agrees is humane if carried out properly. we have human error of some sort and that needs to be investigated. >> woodruff: deborah denno do you want to weigh in on that? >> i certainly do. the three-drug protocol that mr. england englert worked on is a very different kind of protocol than was used in oklahoma. since 2008 states have scattered and used all sorts of protocol. to equate this prot coll with the kind of prot coll used in 2008 is -- there's worlds of difference between them. this was a very problematic protocol used in oklahoma, very different than what was used in kentucky. >> woodruff: deborah denno, given now that the governor, as we reported called for an investigation, wants to get to the bottom of what happened, see what the exact protocol was and whether something went wrong,

does that satisfy your concerns that this kind of lethal injection could be carried out properly in the future? >> i really doesn't. i think what we need to do is what the united kingdom did in the 1950's and have a commission of experts really good over how our leetal injection process is -- lethal injection process is carried outside and our the death penalty works. this is one of a series of problems and that would not be enough. >> woodruff: roy englert? >> the overwhelming majority of executions carried out since 1976 have been care idea out without any problem. the list of botched executions covers about 3% of all executions. a degree with professor denno, there should be no botched executions. we should strive for that. we need to keep the scope of problem in mind. >> woodruff: and what is learned from this incident? >> many things.

one, based on the preliminary facts, when an inmate is awake, the excould constitution should not proceed. pretty simple. the other is we need more facts. >> woodruff: we have to leave it there. roy englert thierchg you joining us in washington. deborah denno in new york and cary aspinwall, thank you. >> thank you. >> woodruff: the obama administration has been fielding questions this week about its handling of foreign policy matters. tonight, we look at some of those questions, and the issues they raise. >> ifill: from syria to israel, to ukraine and russia, to last week's four-nation asia trip, foreign policy has returned to center stage for president obama. but setbacks have claimed as much attention as success. the president returned home yesterday with a new military agreement with the philippines. but a broader pacific trade deal was left undone. meanwhile, russian president

vladimir putin threatened ukraine's borders and israel's benjamin netanyahu abandoned peace talks with the palestinians. in washington, critics like republican senator john mccain have challenged the president's leadership, and taken secretary of state john kerry to task. >> on the issue of ukraine. my hero, teddy roosevelt used to say talk softly, but carry a big stick. what you're doing, is talking strongly, and carrying a very small stick. in fact, a twig. >> the people of ukraine should know why won't we give them in defensive weapons when they are facing yet another invasion -- not the first, but another invasion of their country. it is just beyond logic. kerry responded that diplomacy should always be the avenue of first resort. >> but your friend teddy roosevelt also said that the credit belongs to the people who

are in the arena who are trying to get things done, and we're trying to get things done. sure we may fail. you want to dump it on me, i may fail, i don't care. it's worth doing, it's worth the effort. >> ifill: in syria, president bashar al-assad is now seeking re-election, ignoring repeated u.s. calls for him to step down. more than 150,000 are now dead in that civil war, and peace talks in geneva fizzled earlier this year. on monday, while traveling in manila, the president offered a pointed response to critics who say he has been too slow to act forcefully. >> my job as commander-in-chief is to deploy military force as a last resort, and to deploy it wisely. and, frankly, most of the foreign policy commentators that have questioned our policies

would go headlong into a bunch of military adventures that the american people had no interest in participating in and would not advance our core security interests. >> ifill: the administration has been able to score some victories, including the destruction of much of syria's chemical weapons arsenal. and last november, iran agreed to a six-month deal to freeze parts of its nuclear program. negotiations for a longer-term agreement continue. >> ifill: we dive right into the debate about the successes and setbacks, with nicholas burns, a career foreign service officer and former ambassador to n.a.t.o. he's now at harvard university's kennedy school. retired army colonel andrew bacevich, professor of international relations and history at boston university. his latest book is "breach of trust: how americans failed their soldiers and their country." and trudy rubin is the worldview columnist at the philadelphia inquirer. familiar faces all. thank you for joining us again. andrew, i want to start with you up there in boston.

what is your sense about how well or how well it has not gone, the obama foreign policy doctrine? >> well, when we elected president obama, i think the expectations were that he was going to score an a. remember, he is the guy that upon being inaugurated received a nobel peace prize and he doesn't deserve an a. he probables deserves about a c. it's all relative. i would take a c over the f that his predecessor scored. >> ifill: trudy rubin? >> i would also say, though it's hard to rate a president, i would say c or passing because i think there have been some real failures and a lack of connecting the dots and focus on a preconceived notion that we were entering into a world where we could build a rule based

global system ignoring the fact at that there were players playing hard politics and interested in using hard power, not soft pawr power. there's been a couple of redeeming areas, but basically the preconceptions, i think has led him really astray. >> ifill: nick burns that sounds naivete on the president's part? >> i think his record is mixed because it's hard to take a snap shot in any one day and say he is winning and losing in foreign policy. he's done well on iran. for the first time in 34 years we have the iranians at the negotiating table mainly through tough minded sanctions he and george w. bush put in place. i think on the trip of asia he shows the concept you'll breckthrough that more of the interests will be in asia than

any other part of the world. he has given it real time. in you this agreement with the pill feens will increase military strange. he is spending more time with ms. most important relationship given china's power. you want the american president and chinese president to be talking. the attack on the president, the rhetorical attack, this week, has been he isn't leading with a great degree of self confidence on ukraine, on the russia problem or in syria with the assad problem. >> ifill: let's talk about syria getting to the brink and not intervening and putin in russia and crimea and allowing -- that's what his critics say allowing putin to claim crimea without much of a fight. how would you describe what happened in between those two poles? i think on syria there's no question that the president

misspoke to put it kindly when he drew his red line that the assad regime subsequently crossed. the president looked around as he was about to go to war in syria and realized nobody was with him. certainly the american people were not with him. so to make a threat and not make good on that threat was a great mistake. that said, ultimately, the decision not to intervene militarily in syria was the correct decision. this is a massive iew main tairn -- humanitarian problem. i think you can make an argument that we generally in the west are not doing enough to alleviate the suffering caused by that civil war. but to meddle in the civil war without knowing which side ought to win would be a mistake. i think the ukraine issue need it's be placed in a larger

context. the larger context is the aftermath of cold war. when the cold war ended there were any number of countries in a sense up for grabs. central europe, the battic republic, the balkans and virtually all of these countries have since been incorporated into the west, into the eu, into nato. that's to say we have scarfed up about 95% of the marbles that were still in play. and in that sense it's hardly surprising that putin, who is a thug, is taking this moment to poke us back because he has been the loser for the past two decades. >> ifill: trudy rubin, what about the president's role in those cases. andrew said he didn't do it well but ultimately did the right thing in syria? do you agree? >> i think he did the wrong thing in syria. and i don't think it was ever an issue of going to war in syria.

i think what the president did is overlook the fact that moving towards diplomacy and saying there's no military solution doesn't mean that you sometimes have to take tough steps in order to convince some of the player, in this case assad and vladmir putin, that they had no choice but to go to diplomacy. john kerry was much more outspoken about this. he said back then in 2012 quite bluntly that in order to get assad to the table and he could have said in order to get putin to accept it, you would have to work hard at organizing the opposition, and you might have to give lethal arms. having covered this from the beginning, there were forces who could have been trusted, who could have been vetted and in order to get assad to the table especially as this thing develops with all the casualties, you had to take a

lead role in organizing and making sure that weapons went to the right people. instead by basically hanging back the president has in effect allowed the situation to develop where there's a new afghanistan on the mediterranean. and there's a real terrorist threat all through eastern syria and western iraq that could have been confronted early on. >> ifill: nick burns, to what degree did the white house or administration prioritize incorrectly. a lot of energy on secretary kerry's part was spent trying to get the israelis and palestinians back to the peace table? oonch. >> i'm not sure it's the right concept. i think we have a team active on china and japan. i respect what secretary kerry tried to do. it's clear that the israelis and palestinians are not ready for a

negotiation. he has to pivot to the china, japan relationship and reduce conflict there. the big can challenge is putin now. a lot of people are watching all over the world. i've been in see paolo -- sao paolo and hong kong and they are saying if he didn't show desiesiveness on syria will putin respect him. it's that credibility problem. the president has time to address it. presidents in the second term turn to foreign policy because constitutions give them great latitude and he needs that leadership. >> ifill: here is the question i want to pose to all three of you two new national polls coming out this week, the american people saying i don't feel like we should intervene, have that muscular a role in foreign policy. and if the president does that they say he is not leading, a little weak, behind the curve. where is the sweet spot, the

middle ground there, andrew? >> your lead-in coat quoted the president as saying that force is a last resort. should be a last resort. right. correctly. and i think that marks the distance that we've traveled since the early years of the george w. bush administration which treated force as the first resort and produced cat stroffic -- catastrophic consequences. the president is crekly interpreting the views of american people, and the american people, in this case, are not stupid. >> ifill: let me ask trudy rubin and ask her to keep it tight? >> i think we're not talking about going to war. even if the president puts an emphasis on diplomacy it has to be backed up by something. putin respects strength. i think there should have been more targeted saksz earlier and more now. he is likely to disrupt elections in may and if there's

not a clear message sent. i don't think it's a question of looking at the polls and saying no war, no more war. it's a question at looking at american needs and looking at how you can back-up diplomacy with a real strong policy where you show interest and take leadership. >> ifill: nick burns? >> it's not surprising the american people after two bitter wars and a big recession want to rebuild the country at home. but the reality the economic and political security in the future depend on being the world leader. that's the job of the president to defy these polls and explain to the american people from the bully pulpit what we've invested overseas and fight the isolationist trends in the democratic party on the left and tea party on the right. >> ifill: thank you all. >> thank you. >> woodruff: finally, tonight, a

conversation about love and marriage and the law. jeffrey brown has that. >> reporter: in 2008 california voters pass the proposition 8 a ban on same-sex marriage. latest turn in a long running battle over the issue largely waged state by state. it led to a federal pursuit of a federal lawsuit to overthrow prop 8 that ended in a major decision by the supreme court. the story is told in the new book "forcing the spring: inside the fight for marriage equality" by author jo becker the pulitzer prize winning reporter for the "new york times" and i have to add long ago a young staff person at the newshour. welcome back. >> thanks for having me brunchts to go back to where this started for you you saw a story in 2008. you managed to embed yourself with part of that effort. tell us how it started. >> i wrote a story for the "new york times" about ted olson, a

guy liberals loved to hate. he won bush v gore for bush, how he had come to embrace this cause. i was hooked. you had rob reiner, the movie direct, chad griffin, a young political op pra active and the pairing up of these super lawyers ted olson and david boies who was his adder have usairy in bush v gore. i wanted to know what does it feel like to be the face of -- in a major civil rights case. >> brown: and the strategy which is part of -- much of what you write, the strategy they pursued of controversial even within the gay rights movement, right? tell us how they decided to good for the federal lawsuit? >> at the time there was a real feeling that the supreme court wasn't ready, the country wasn't ready and what the activities were pursuing was this ten, ten,

ten strategy to have 30 states with some form of marriage recognition before you went the federal route. this group thought it was time to do something different brownch the danger was its could be become fire. >> it was a gamable. a lot of visitities working for years on this issue were extremely upset by it. there was a scene i describe in the book where they were called to reiner's home in brentwood, several of the lawyers on this issue clueing them in we're thinking about doing. this it was this cacophony of criticism not that they didn't share the goal, they did share the goal, of course. they were worried they would take it to supreme court and lose. that was a terrible setback for the movement. that was the fear. >> people waited to see what would happened with barack. on this issue. you describe that famous moment when joe biden who sort of forced his hand. >> joe biden before he went made

his famous gaffe went on meet the press. he had been at the home of a gay couple outside playing with their kids and he was asked this question in the privacy of this home, how do you feel about this issue. a staffer told it was like his hard drive got erased. being in the house with the kids he answered the question different. he told me that question and episode was ringing fresh in his mind and he was -- he was asked on meet the press. and this time, he gave the same answer but it was on national television. >> brown: did the president then feel, correct, he felt forced to do something? >> yeah, it forced the president's hand. it's interesting the president shall everybody said, many of his aides, urged him to take bide tonight woodshed. he wouldn't do it. the first lady felt it was a

blessing in disguise. she said you can speak from your heart. you don't have to dance around this. she said enjoy this day. you are free. >> brown: tell me about the reporting of a book like. this you had incredible access for a long time to the plaintiff side. >> yeah, the only stipulation was that i would not write about this until after there was a resolution to the case for obvious reasons. i was in the political war rooms where they plotted the kind of how to speak to the american public, it was a heated -- huge public education campaign that went along with this. i was there when lawyers talked over strategy and with the plaintiff. every time they drove to court i was in the van with them. i tried to tell their stories. >> brown: you are getting great reviews. you are also getting some criticism and pushback from people especially in the gay

community who think that you are focusing so much on this case and this -- these years. you are exaggerate the contributions of some of protag inconsistents, you sort of ignore the past history that led up to it. >> you know, i am getting some criticism in some quarters. this book was never meant to be a history of gay rights movement. wonderful books have been done on that. it wasn't even meant to be a history of marriage equality movement. we didn't sell it that way or bill it that way. "the new york times" as well as "the washington post" have given us great reviews, as have others, what they say is it's a stunningly intimate portrait. i tried to take you inside, let you feel what it's like to be the judge who himself is gay and listening to this evidence. what it's like to be the pj9 phonecalls. what i really wanted to tell is

what it's like to feel like you want something as chris perry testified. you want something that everybody else has and be told no, you can't have it. that's a story that was so moving that the guy who fought them all the way to the supreme court, the lawyer on the other side, charles cooper said after watching them over these four and half years, when he finally saw them get married on television, he told me he couldn't help but rejoice in their happiness. wow, what a story. i think it's a great story. i hope people will read it. >> brown: the book is "forcing the spring." jo becker, thanks so much. >> thank you for having me. >> woodruff: again, the major developments of the day. the same storm front that spawned tornadoes this week, triggered heavy flooding across the florida panhandle and coastal alabama. some places got 26 inches of

rain in the last 24 hours. the dow jones hit a new all-time high of 16,581. iraqis went to the polls to pick a new parliament, for the first time since u.s. troops left in 2011. scattered violence killed five people. and in northern ireland, police arrested sinn fein leader gerry adams in the abduction and killing of a belfast woman by the irish republican army in 1972. >> ifill: on the newshour online right now, what was once a treasure buried in the basement of saddam hussein's intelligence headquarters, is now in the temporary custody of the u.s.'s national archives. but who really owns the thousands of jewish documents and ancient spiritual texts found in baghdad? it's turned into a battle between iraqi jews around the world, and the nation that they were forced to flee. on our world page, you can read more about it, and see what the archives is doing to preserve them. you can find all that and more is on our web site, newshour.pbs.org. >> woodruff: and that's the

newshour for tonight. on thursday, we'll look at, how the rate of americans behind bars has quadrupled in the last 40 years. i'm judy woodruff. >> ifill: and i'm gwen ifill, we'll see you on-line and again here tomorrow evening. for all of us here at the pbs newshour, thank you and good night >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: ♪ ♪ moving our economy for 160 years. bnsf, the engine that connects us.

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