>> charlie: welcome to the program. sister rosemary is on the "times" 100 list of most influential people. she works hard in africa trying to save lost girls. >> let me tell you the truth. if there is a problem that my life comes to an end, it is god telling me now you don't have much to do, it is finished. but i think god is my protector and he wants me to continue doing what i'm doing and speak on behalf of the voiceless. i will not only speak, i will shout. >> charlie: with no fear. i have no fear. god takes care of me. my protector, my defender is god, and i'm totally convinced truth will set me free and truth will set many people free.

>> charlie: we conclude this evening with lynne cheney. her new biography of james madison is called "james madison: a life reconsidered." >> washington is calledñi the indispensable man. without madison, there would have been no constitution, i think you can make that case, certainly no bill of rights. he was absolutely essential getting the new government under the constitution underway and became the first president to take the nation to war under the constitution, setting a precedent there as well.kkf i think of all the founders, he's probably most left the impression of his mind on our lives. >> charlie: sister rosemary and lynne cheney next.

>> there's a saying around here: you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: sister rosemary nyirumbe is here, her work is to

provide shelter for female victims of the shelter in uganda, and the subjects of a document rinarratedñi by for ret whitaker called "sewing hope."3 especially. they were capable young killers but could be used as sex slaves for commanding young officers. eventually these girls became mothers themselves, some as young as 13 or 14 years old. six yearsñi after kony fled northern uganda, these girls were released from physical bondage but they still remained enslaved, carrying scars from their time in the bush and their captors' children on their backs, they had nowhere to turn. the guns have stopped firing but the war still remains for one woman who directs a small tailoring school in gulu,

uganda. she fights for these girls, with sewing machines and pop tabs. >> charlie: the fate of girls abducted by terrorist groups in africa has been in the head lines recently. boko haram kidnapped almost 30 school girls last month and promised to sell them into slavery. the president promised assistance to find the girls. i'm proud to have sister rosemary at this table for the first time and thanks for visiting us. >> thank you for having me here. i'm happy you gave me this opportunity to speak. >> charlie: me what you do. >> i have been engaged for many years helping young women and children get up from where their life has been robbed from them, especially their dignity, their childhood and education and a good number of them were even

robbed of their own families. so most of the children abducted by the north resistance army, taken into captivity, trained as child slaves and the young girls were given over to the commanders and used as sex slaves. they were god's children. when they came back, it was a very different life for them. they didn't know how to start. the community were afraid of the children because they were trained killers. the army used tactics of training these children as kill canners. they were able to kill their own siblings and these children were feared by the community when they came back. this was exactly the time when i thought it was important for me to open the school, open the door and make the school become more of a family, where these girls can be accepted, where

they can again restore their own lost childhood, where they can recover from their pain. it was daily walking with them, accompanying them, and together with my assistance to adopt these girls and children, show them love. >> charlie: for rest whitaker writing in the "times" 100 profile, he said sister rosemary has the power to rekindle a bright light in ey the women with children born out of conflict, she helps them become loving mothers at last. how do you explain that? >> for these children to become loving mothers, they had to receive love. >> charlie:ñr to give love, you have to receive love.

>> yes, and accept walking side by side with them, giving them love. i really had to act as a mother. these girls began to love their own children. i've sort of given them skills. i told them, whatever skills i'm giving you, make sure you get married to it because it will be your future. you get married tomorrow to somebody. it might be a temporary marriage and will not help you to take care of these children. learn all the skills, get married to them, and you will see how you walk with your head up, you will have your dignity restored. your destiny is in your own hands, and that's how they became loving mothers because they're able to provide for their own children. >> charlie: you have met children fathered byçó joseph

kony. >> yes. >> charlie: who is he? if i had a chance to meet him, the only thing i can say to him is that i forgive you but i would like you to know that i have been caring for your children. i have been restoring the dignity of the girls who you took and i will not forget to tell him that these children have fought back and their dignity is restored and they are the winners, it's not you. >> charlie: how many young girls kyung he has taken, joseph kony? >> at one time, there were more than 50 girls who were his wives and, of course, thousands of girls who were taken. sometimes it's difficult to keep the number. >> charlie: and now we have the story of nigeria boko haram. and you have said they have been given into sex slavery.

human trafficking. >> marriage is a noble word. let us call it sex slavery, human trafficking, which is evil. we must not sugar coat anything. we must call evil by its name to fight it. that means we must come together to really realize and say thisñr is evil, we are fighting against it. >> charlie: you argue it's the media that can make a difference? >> so much. the media can make a difference. not just the media could make things not look right. the media in this case can make things look right if they bring out the right title, if they encourage people by saying this is sex slavery. many times people forget. i know we're all human beings,

and many times the media looks for current issues where they can say easily, this is an old story. for instance, when this is happening in uganda, some people had courage to say this is something that we cannot talk about anymore. it's not on the front page. it has happened in nigeria. and in two weeks, this is already something old, we need new topics to put in the front line. i think that is wrong, the media should put this over and over again in the front page and call it by its name and encourage people, call on people that we've got to fight this evil. it is not only nigeria. it's not a nigerian issue anymore or an african issue anymore, it is an issue for the world to fight against. >> charlie: and you think the world will respond? >> i think the world should respond. >> charlie: i know you think it should. do you think they will? >> if they don't respond, those few who understand and know we must stand up and shout to

people we must come together and shout. >> charlie: what is it that drives them, these leaders of boko haram? >> all selfish interest, power and also trying to make women look as if they were trash, women of no values. because for women to try to work through their life and go to study to define their future, you come and take them and say stop studying. i think it's terrible. it's a way of crushing women again. it's a way to make women to be, like, second-class citizens in the world. i think that's very, very wrong. >> charlie: the president's reacted, as you saw. >> yes. >> charlie: that must please you. >> i was very happy. >> charlie: but they can do more. >> they can do more. they can do more. and, of course, i keep emphasizing, the media should keep encouraging, should keep on talking about this over and over

again. sometimes silence doesn't do us any favor in this case. this is evil against humanity. what has happened to nigeria can happen in the united states, can happen again in uganda, can happen in any part of the world. so let us forget who we are and we say, if we don't fight this evil, it will happen. let us put ourselves in place of the mothers of these girls. let us put ourselves in the place of these girls. they feel like they're forgotten. we have to give them the encouragement that they're not forgotten. we're going to let them be walking in hope again. >> charlie: so when you perceive them, whether it's in uganda or sudan or if you would visit nigeria, tell me how it impacts them because, obviously, it destroys, in some cases, hope.

>> yes. >> charlie: you suffer abuse. yeah. >> charlie: you suffer -- even though -- a sexual assault and assault on your dignity, your person. >> but it means a lot to be able to open arms and accept these children, embrace these girls, and make them feel i am embracing you. i know your background, but i don't care. it's only love and compassion i show you. if i can embrace you, i can give you love. i know you have been sexually destroyed. i want to encourage you, slowly, speak about it. speak about it. i'm as a mother to you. i think these children will know the world cares. let their tears come, but we must be able to wipe those tears. they should cry on our shoulders. >> charlie: tell me the stories that have moved you the

most. >> there are a lot of things that have moved me the most, but when i see these young women struggle and working through, i see their resilience, i see how strong they are. it moves me. and i say, we must not let them be alone. we've got to encourage them. and we have to let them know they are made for more. they have a lot of values. the world is there caring for them, and everybody at this time is going to let them feel their situation and their future can be better. >> charlie: we know sex trafficking is a global phenomenon. >> yes. >> charlie: even reaches into the united states. >> yes. >> charlie: how pervasive is it in africa? >> it is, i think, a lot, and everywhere. the only thing is that thexd silenceñi about it, people are t

speaking about it. so it's like it is not much. it is there. there is like any problem. people are not speaking about it. people need to speak. it is there. >> charlie: to remove whatever self chain there is. >> exactly. sometimes they say girls or women are brought to developed countries, like even to the united states, what are are people doing about it? are we speaking about it? let us hope and pray that there are not people are there, very important, who finance that, you know, because it is truly evil. >> charlie: so here sitting with me this evening, you seem to say the most important thing we can have is enormous focus from the media -- >> yes. >> charlie: -- and governments -- >> yes. >> charlie: -- with a will and

commitment to return the children because you have said we talk about lost boys, it's time to talk about -- >> lost girls, yes! everybody talks about lost boys, lost boys. i'm asking, i'm questioning everybody. where are the lost girls? there are so many even among us, no one speaks about them. and we're soñi surprised. a woman said, sister, you've touched my life. i was one to have the lost girls. >> charlie: where was this? at the gala. >> charlie: she was one of the sex slaves? >> yes. i was just in tennessee. i spoke about human trafficking. at the end of my tour. a woman came up and said, sister, what you have been talking about touched my life directly. i have been kidnapped. it touches people among us, but

we don't know about them. we don't even speak about them. this i think the media could do great to high light this from time to time. >> charlie: and not make it tomorrow's story. >> it is never a front story, it is not! >> charlie: do you worry about your own safety? >> well, let me tell you the truth -- if there was any problem that my life comes to an end, it means god is telling me, now you don't have much to do, you're finished. but as i am here talking, i think god is my protector and he wants me to continue doing what i am doing, he wants me to speak on behalf to have the voiceless. thisly say, i will not only speak, i will shout. >> charlie: with no fear? no fear. i have no fear. god takes care of me. my protector, my defender is god, and i'm totally convinced truth will set me free and truth will set many people free.

>> charlie: i think god has a purpose for you. >> here i am. >> charlie: before i go, i want to talk about this. this is a book called "sewing hope." joseph kony tore those lives apart, can she stitch them back together. tell me about st. monica's girls tailoring school. >> you know, st. monica's is a tailoring school, and tailoring is just an umbrella because we teach many, many different skills, practical skills for these girls. as you can see, the cover of that book, we're using a needle to sew hope. >> charlie: yes. that means we are sewing broken lives together, we are trying to let them continueçó working, inñi hope, knowing that they once considered their lives as it was ended, and i always tell them, welsc, we shall mendr

life and put your life together from where it stopped. and this book actually tells a lot of story. you see the cover is sister rosemary. the book is not about me. the book is a story about these children who are talking about theirçó own lives themselves, ad it's very important that people try to be curious to read this book because it will get the children speaking in that book. of course, it is painful and sometimes it becomes light, and the book talks about me with my fear and courage, which i find sometimes funny. i didn't know killing snakes, like cobras, was my strength, and in that book, it talks about it. >> charlie: you can kill a cobra. >> i killed two of them. and i didn't know that the fear i have of caterpillars --

>> charlie: you fear caterpillars? >> yes. >> charlie: why? i don't know! i don't want to discuss it! (laughter) >> charlie: you don't want to discuss it. >> i don't want to discuss it. don't take me into it! it talks about how a man takes his own life, how he lost hope. and these young women in uganda, how it made him to recover from his own hopelessness because he had just lost a son due to prescription drug abuse. and meeting me and what i'm doing with the children, it brought him hope because hea3 said, if i have any sympathy with myself, i'll put it aside and support the children. >> charlie: this is a scene from "sewing hope" where we'll

see a young woman talk about being abducted by joseph kony and his lords resistance army. here it is.

>> charlie: that's who they are. >> yeah. that's who they are. i normally don't watch it. it pains me because i'm living with these young women. i'm not just telling stories. >> charlie: when do you go back? >> i'm going back next week. >> charlie: what will you do when you get back? >> when i go back, they keep waiting for me. they know that i'm coming, they know that i'm bringing them some work to continue with their life. they ask me, have you brought us work? which makes me happy because they're not asking me if i brought them money, they're asking for work, and i have a lot of jobs. i look like a crazy woman. >> charlie: show us that.

these are great because it's changing the lives of the women and their children. >> charlie: made from? pop tabs. >> charlie: yes, look at that. they are on the web site called sistersunited.com in the united states. and i always tell people, look at the beauty of these and think of what they're made of. they're made of what everyone would consider trash. it is just signifying these young women who are considered trash. >> charlie: good luck to you. thank you. thank you so much for having me on this show. >> charlie: thank you. we'll be back. stay with us. >> charlie: lynne cheney is here. she is an historian, best-selling author and wife of former vice president dick cheney. her book is called james madison: a life reconsidered,

the fourth president. she senses his grand accomplishments are underrated. an historian writes her book deserves to stand near the center of our early american firm mament. welcome, lynne cheney. >> a great pleasure to be here. >> charlie: we saw you on the morning program and everybody is becoming interested in james madison. it must make you happy. >> i hope i can help in the effort. he has long been, i think, our most underrated president and the thought is not original with me. when john kennedy was president, he said madison was the most underappreciated of his predecessors. >> charlie: but you put him very high up beyond underappreciated because of his accomplishments as is suggested in the quote. i mean, you really think this is a man who was responsible for so much of what we are in terms of

the ideas and beliefs that made the nation. >> exactly. washington has been called the indispensable man, but without madison, there would have been no constitution, i think you can fairly make that case, certainly no bill of rights. he was absolutely essential to the constitution underway. then he became the first president to take the nation to war under the constitution, setting a precedent there as well. i think of all the founders, he's probably most left the impression of his mind on our lives. >> charlie: so why is he underappreciated? >> well, maybe because he was calm and reserved. you know, we tend to -- you know, paradise lost. people always used to ask when i was working on my ph.d. in english, why is it the devil is more attractive than god in paradise lost? so we kind of like our rogue politicians who shock us and

keep us interested. madison was a man of great steadiness, a man who overcame adversity and studied deeply. perhaps we don't like the more saintly of our founders as much as, but he was a great man. >> charlie: stature? 5'6" and, charlie, to me, that's tall (laughter) but you're right, his wife was taller than me. jefferson was over 6 feet, washington was over 6 feet. someone observed at one of the virginia conventions, madison may have been the shortest person there. but he was very fit. one of the people at the virginia convention in 1776, when virginia was writing it's constitution after the break from england was becoming apparent, someone there wrote how fit he was and how steady his gaze was, and thomas jefferson said he had a most communing presence. >> charlie: - --

ommanding presence. >> charlie: dolly madison became well known in her own right. >> he saw her on the streets of philadelphia, fell in love with her. of all people, he asked aaron byrd to arrange an introduction. he did and they were married shortly thereafter. it was one of the great political marriages. it would be then what dolly's skill was was to bring people together and make them feel warm and congenial and appreciate her husband. in those days, the congress, the caucuses of the congress, chose the presidential nominees. so there's contemporary testimony as to how dolly's ability toñi bring people togetr helped her husband become the presidential nominee. >> charlie: he was secretary of state to thomas jefferson who was his long-time friend. >> yes, it was a friendship of many years. they had first known one another

when madison -- known one another well, served on the council of state in virginia. all the government entities trying to keep the nation going while we were breaking from britain. but they got to know one another then, and it was a friendship that lasted through life and, at the end of it, jefferson wrote to madison and said, please take care of me when i'm dead. and by that he meant, you know, take care of my reputation, guard my reputation. jefferson was a little bit flamboyant in his speaking ways. you know, he would say things -- madison said he would say things with a great round "o," meaning he often said things madison had to kind of -- >> charlie: were there a lot of letters between them? >> yes, a three-volume set of the jefferson-madison letters, and it's one of the great stories. >> charlie: and who was the more -- who was the better writer? >> jefferson, probably.

he did have a gift for flowing rhetoric. madison was the more centered of the two. jefferson would come up with proposals that were outlandish, such as revising the government every 19 years. he decided 19 years was the time of a generation and no generation should have to live under the government of -- >> charlie: so they would have a constitutional convention every 19 years. >> exactly. and madison pointed out the dangers to stability. madison was so intent on getting a stable country established because, under the articles of confederation, the country was, you know, a wreck, a mess. >> charlie: what was his relationship to alexander hamilton? >> they were rivals. they didn't know it until hamilton became treasury secretary and began making really expansive proposals for the federal government. hamilton believed that anything that was within the realm of general welfare was something

that congress could act upon. madison, who had been at the constitutional convention the whole time, whereas hamilton just dropped in and out, madison knew that what the framers had done was create a government of very limited powers, enumerated and limited powers. so the two of them came to a parting of the ways on this issue. on hamilton's side was washington, and on madison's was jefferson. >> charlie: and jefferson and hamilton often had the different idea of what america ought to look like. >> exactly. >> charlie: when these people -- do they have a sense of their own greatness? >> well, i think they had a sense of what an amazing opportunity this was to change the course of human kind, to make history. and they wanted to do a very good job of making history because they all had this concept that one form of immortality was fame -- by that, they didn't mean being a rock star, they meant affecting posterity so that your

contribution lasted for a long time. >> charlie: as secretary of state, what were his achievements? >> well, he was secretary of state duryn the louisiana purchase. >> charlie: that's a pretty good achievement. >> and he helped convince jefferson it was constitutional. jefferson kept worrying the louisiana purchase wasn't constitutional. heñi worried so long it looked like napoleon might pull back the off, which helped get jefferson get on board. but madison said, you have treaty power, the federal government can certainly acquire land. >> charlie: i wonder why napoleon did it? why did he sell it? >> one thing that happened was that french troops had been slaughtered in san domingo. that had been the french entry point to north america. two things kept that from being successful and, in fact, made it a disaster, oneñi was yellow fer which decimated the ranks of the french troops in san domingo and the other was to st. loverture,

who was a slave. the slaves declared themselves free. they fought so hard to keep their freedom. eventually through subterfuge, napoleon got toussaint captured and put in a prison. but it was yellow fever and 500,000 people who didn't want to be slaves again. >> charlie: how long did madison live? >> he died at 86. >> charlie: he lived long, didn't he? >> it was amazing. they knew how to take care of themselves. i think it's the same today in many ways. if you make it past a certain age, you know, your longevity is assured more than for most people. but they understood the importance of exercise. they understood the importance of, you know, not eating too much, not drinking too much. >> charlie: and the foods then didn't have all the kind of

substances we have now with all the sugar that's part of our diet. >> that's true, but when i go to montpelier and look at it, i suppose the food had problems. they didn't have refrigeration. they had dysentery frequently. >> charlie: what was the regret of madison's life? >> slavery. he hated slavery. >> charlie: born having slaves. >> yes, going back three generations. he knew it was wrong, lamented it but couldn't figure out how to get out of it. if you freed your slaves, they couldn't stay in virginia. that was a law in virginia. neighboring states said they couldn't come there. at the end of his life, madison and other great men of the early period, john marshall, for example, formed a society to colonize free slaves to liberia.

the problem was the slaves had grown up in the united states. they didn't want to go live in liberia. but you kind of see madison clinging to this idea and just hoping it will help somehow. but he died. >> charlie: did madison and jefferson talk about this in letters? >> about slavery, i can't recall their talking about it in letters. >> charlie: jefferson obviously accepted slavery. >> he did. where you see it in madison's letters are to other people, mostly, where he talks about -- well, during the revolution, there was a plan to give every person who enlist add slave. and madison fully objected to that. we're fighting a revolution for human freedom and it would make more sense to enlist slaves as soldiers. >> charlie: and his great am base biggs beyond -- and his great ambition beyond slavery was what? >> the union. the notion that we could have a great extended country that was a republic where private rights would be protected.

people always thought this was impossible, that you could only have representative government or a republic within a very small dominion where everyone thought and believed alike. madison thought that was fiction, you were never going to get that, and an extended republic would have so many different interests at work no one of them could become dominant. >> charlie: how big is the federallest papers? >> it's huge. it's perhaps the most significant piece of political writing from the early republic. it was written at break-neck speed, which, you know, i loving knowing that because they were so smart that they were still writing the conclusion when the printer was setting the first part of it. madison did the equivalent of writing a ten-page paper every day for over a month and, you know, it became immortal. they were an amazing set of fellows. >> charlie: was that a proud

achievement of his? >> the federalist papers, yes. but one of the things i like to point out is his modesty. when jefferson died, he had a cinitaph over his grave where he described his great accomplishments. >> charlie: it did not list being president. >> that's correct. madison didn't even have a burial marker. i've often speculated, if he had had one and he were to list his greatest accomplishments, i think it would be certainly the constitution of the united states and the bill of rights, but it would also be an absolute commitment to intellectual freedom that he carried throughout his life. >> charlie: here's my other question about this is that george bush, 43, often said it's too early to know how his administration would be judged and they were still writing books as george washington, at which at last count there were a

huge amount. sam thing is true about so many of the founding fathers. here you come along and write a book with good reviews, people citing it as one of the best understandings of madison. what's new? are they new sources? do you have access to different things other historians have not had? >> well, there is some truth to the latter fact. >> charlie: it's not like -- , no no, but madison had a wayward stepson, a young man who gambled and drank and womanized who began to take papers out of montpelier and sell them.so youd uncataloged madison papers and i have a friend on the eastern13 that are important. now, they weren't shaping for the book, but there is a manuscript at princeton library that's not been published that was very important.

>> charlie: how good a politician was he? >> terrific. i mean, absolutely. i am so impressedçó when i think of what he accomplished with the bill of rights. he read everything that had ever been submitted as possible amendments to the constitution. his friends didn't want it to go through the congress. his enemies were determined it wouldn't go through, and he was very savvy and got it through. >> charlie: his relationship to john adams? >> john adams, that was fraught. john adams, of course, was president when alien and tradition acts were passed. it was an interesting thing. people didn't understand that there could be a legitimate opposition. they fought the revolution, had a government, and, so, if you opposed it, so the thinking went, you must be a traitor of some kind, and that way of thinking led et to the se digs n acts which made it a crime to criticize someone in public

office. madison thought in a republic you neededñr opposition, and particularly understood thatq3 interpreting the constitution. madison came up with the philosophical basis for a political party and took steps to get it organized. it was that political party -- >> charlie: evolution in madison's thinking about a strong central government. >> absolutely. in the beginning, at the constitutional convention, he was so worried about the states and what they were doing to personal freedom, coining money, taking people's property awbié the articles of confederation were remarkably unsuccessful, so madison thought we needed a strong central government. when he saw hamilton in action, though -- >> charlie: not that strong. exactly, that it changed, it

wasn't the states, it was this overwhelming government and that's when limited government became clear. >> charlie: you discovered he had epilepsy. >> exactly. that's the manuscript i was talking about at princeton. people have known about it but no one's ever really taken it seriously. madison wasn't a fellow who used words lightly, so when he said he had sudden attacks somewhat resembling epilepsy that suspended the intellectual functions, i decided he needed to be taken seriously. so i spend a lot of times looking at when these attacks probably happened. i spent a lot of time talking to epilepsy experts. i didn't want to wander into this territory with any liberal arts training, you know, i got some real medical people involved, and it's pretty clear he had complex partial seizures. >> charlie: what does dick

cheney think about madison. >> he loves madison. >> charlie: did he read the book chapter by chapter? >> he read parts -- >> charlie: is he an editor for you? do you ask him to look at it when you finish a chapter? >> not really. he looked at it when it was all neatly put together. >> charlie: can you look at the founding fathers on any kind of liberal-conservative spectrum in. >> it is. >> charlie: most people would think jefferson because of his fierce defense of absolute freedom belonged on the left and madison belonged on the left. >> the party that they both belonged to and that madison founded was called the democratic-republican party. this has caused so much confusion over the years. it in so many ways is like the republicanñi party in believingn little government, in low taxes, in low debt, but, inñi fact, its the pret seasesser of the democratic party. so this is just to illustrate some of the confusion.

>> charlie: when you look back at all these people, what was the most surprising thing you found beyond the epilepsy in terms of the relationships among them? i mean, i'm really fascinated by the idea of these men because we now look back and think that they were all geniuses and all great men, but often greatness comes when you have a great opportunity, and this is clearly what happened in the founding of a nation that stood as the longest democracy and cop idea around the world after the founding of -- >> i decided there were secrets of success to be learned from madison. one secret of success is be modest. now, this won't work in politics if you have a lot to be modest about, but his gifts were just bound to shine through and then being modest and nice just burnshed his reputation, so that's one. another is don't let the perfect be the enemy of the possible. he didn't think the constitution was quite the document that we

needed, but he reconciled himself and was key to ratifying it. but my favorite one is marry well, which he did with dolly. that was a veryñi good choice. and a last one is be lucky. he was very fortunate in the time in which he was born, which is your point. >> charlie: right. the gifts he had, had he been born 50 years earlier, 50 years later wouldn't have been as history-changing as they were at >> charlie: now, he got to know jefferson because of virginia politics or -- >> yes. >> charlie: virginia politics. and they didn't live so far apart. 30 miles, basically. >> charlie: didn't he go to work for jefferson? >> when jefferson -- >> charlie: in '28 or something? >> when jefferson was governor, madison served on the council of state, sort of like the cabinet. >> charlie: after jefferson left the presidency, what was the relationship between the two of them? >> well, jefferson was always

free with his advice and this is what made jefferson such an interesting friend. when he was in paris, he was quite sure he knew what the constitutional convention should be doing. he's across the ocean and months apart in terms of communication, but he never hesitated to offer his advice. >> charlie: what happened when washington burned? >> well, madison whom some people have said was sickly and i tried to show it wasn't true in the book, madison spent years on horse back, he was 63 years old, rallying the troops, he road into the battle. he retreated to washington. had to go across the river. there is a wonderful description of going up the virginia side of the potomac and looking out and seeing, you know, the flames burning the government buildings of the city. >> charlie: let me talk a little bit about you and

politics today and your husband today. obviously, all the questions i need to ask about him, i can ask him, not you. >> oh, but i would be happy to try. >> charlie: was the last four years of the bush administration meaningful for him? >> sure. >> charlie: i mean, because he said to me that it wasn't like the first four. >> no, no. and i think there's no doubt about that. you know, relationship change and shift and the president runs his white house the way he wants to. >> charlie: which means he makes the changes he wants to make. >> exactly. >> charlie: and clearly his chief of staff was the hardest thing for him, the fact that he was convicted. >> oh, scooter, yes. >> charlie: almost the hardest thing he had. >> it's one of the great personal disappointments because this is a fine man, who you know, got caught up in what i call the politics of personal destruction and has suffered for that. so, yes, that's a great regret. >> charlie: that became, in a sense, part of the -- it was a

straining -- it strained the relationship. >> absolutely. dick thought scooter should be pardoned, and the president, in the end, decided not to. >> charlie: and your daughter ran for the senate. >> she did. >> charlie: and decided to withdraw. >> she did. she just had some difficulties in her family, some really -- not little ones -- and sheñi thought she just could not continue her -- >> charlie:ñiççñ her family meaning -- >> children. >> charlie: her children. mm-hmm. >> charlie: also, there was a little bit of a pgbnic conflict with her sister? >> that's true. i mean, it's an interesting family we have. >> charlie: i was going to say. but my impression also is that you and the vice president have always been great and up front in terms of mary and her choices and respect for her choices and in a sense have always argued for it was up to the states to

decide things like -- >> exactly, but dick just made that wonderful statement in 2000 in a debate with joexd lieberman when asked about having a gay daughter and gay marriage and so on and he said, freedom means freedom for everyone. people should be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want. when it comes to legal issues, it's up to the states to decide. and, you know, that's where madison would be, actually. this is not a power of the federal government. >> charlie: what's your next book? >> i'm not sure. this decade of the 1790s is so interesting simply because of the turmoil, the vituperation were even greater, i think, than in our own time. and i think it was to create the strong country we have today. >> charlie: the jefferson and madison campaigns were some of the roughest and toughest in terms of accusations and accusations of all kinds of

slanderous conduct. it would make anything we see now look reasonably mild, don't they? >> well, of course, the paper -- james calendar a famous scandalmonger published a rumor first that hamilton was speculating, he was giving money to this man to speculate, and that was a great charge because hamilton was secretary of the treasury. so hamilton took charge of his own defense, usually a mistake, and wrote a pamphlet that said i am not a speculator, i'm an adulterer. i was giving this fellow money because i was sleeping with his wife to keep him quiet. the more things change... >> charlie: did i hear you say you thought the release of this monica lewinsky thing was something you attributed to the clintons or what? >> no, i specifically said i can't imagine "vanity fair" publishing an article that

mrs. clinton didn't think was okay. >> charlie: meaning that carter wouldn't publish an article that he didn't think she wouldn't like? >> yes. >> charlie: why do you think that? >> well, he's been her great supporter all these long times -- >> charlie: he's a pretty intrepid editor. >> well, if you are of my persuasion -- >> charlie: what is your persuasion? >> i'm a conservative, and you don't think "vanity fair" is exactly broad-minded. >> charlie: yeah. and it makes sense. >> charlie: he was very much against the war. >> he was, but his relationship with president clinton may be not as warm as his relationship with mrs. clinton. he's been her long-time supporter, and, if you think about it, it is so smart to get this out of the way now. rand paul, for example, has been bringing it up. >> charlie: all the time, yeah.

>> and it is an issue. youçó know, sexual harassment is such a thing in our society now. >> charlie: is it an issue for her or him. >> rand paul is quite certain it's an issue for her. >> charlie: why is that? i'm not sure, exactly, i understand. i guess that maybe she should have taken a stronger stand against it. but in any case -- >> charlie: the problemmive with that, that kind of argument with anybody is you never really know how strong someone acted within the confines of their own privacy. >> but you know -- well, this is such an issue now for feminists and rightly so, the idea of power relationships, a 21-year-old intern and, what, a 50-something-year-old president of the united states. this is the classic example of power being used in an inappropriate way. >> charlie: why do you think america seems to have forgiven the president? >> because he's such a genial

fellow. we talked about milton. he's a really likable person. >> charlie: some says it's because he had been a good president. >> in some ways, he was. >> charlie: and the economy was doing well. >> that's it. it's the economy, i think, that was the main thing that people look at when they think of those years and what was good about them. but, still -- all right, call me old fashioned, i'm appalled at the idea of the disparity in age and status, and i think that, you know, most feminists would be, but they want to support hillary, too. >> charlie: say that again? i think most feminist are appalled at the disparity in age and status but also very much want to support hillary who never spoke out and said, you know, this was sexual harassment and wrong. now, maybe it's too much to expect, but that is a kind of expectation, i think, in the air. >> charlie: do you think she'll have to address this?

>> well, not if we get it out of the way with the "vanity fair" article. >> charlie: the idea is to get this past her now and it not be an issue? >> well, you can then declare it old news, again. >> charlie: tell me, give me a sketch of what you -- and i'm just asking you, not that you reflect your husband's point of view, do you disagree with many things? >> no. it would be so much more interesting if we did, but we have been married almost 50 years. we met each other in high school. we've kind of grown together. >> charlie: dick cheney had a rough beginning, i don't mean by poverty, but he was in and out of college. >> he was in and out of jail. >> charlie: he was in and out of jail? we shouldn't hold that against him, should we? >> well, when he was 18 and 21, i very much held it against him. >> charlie: you did? but i didn't say in so many words but indicated in many ways

that, you know, we couldn't get married until he turned into a responsible person. >> charlie: you made him a responsible person? you basically demanded that he become -- >> no, i just basically indicated that this wasn't my way. >> charlie: and you think -- also, i was so angry with him because he had so many gifts and, you know, i knew what an amazing person he was, and he was squandering them. >> charlie: you know, the country looks at the iraqi war and clearly that's an issue. just look what happened to condoleezza rice. >> well, that's ridiculous. >> charlie: i believe so, as well, that people ought to be allowed to speak. >> but condi is a role model in so many ways. >> charlie: yes. but does that say something to you about how so many of, especially young people, feel about that war? >> my impression is this wasn't an uprising on the part of half the student body at rutgers, it was an uprising by a couple of

left-wing professors and some students who followed them like lemmings. it was not the kind of thing thought in the '60s. >> charlie: but the university should have been able to withstand that, shouldn't it? >> exactly, that's the point. >> charlie: if it was just a couple of professors and a couple of students. >> one would think. and, in fact, condi herself decided it would be too disruptive. for so long, right after desert storm, dick gave the commencement speech at my alma mater. >> charlie: where would that be? >> colorado college. it was great and the kids all loved him. as soon as he stood up to speak, the entire faculty stood up and turned their backs on him. this was the end of desert storm. so this gives you the idea our campuses in all too many instances become places where groups of people who are out of the main stream gain an amount of power over the agenda of that

institution that they shouldn't have. >> charlie: the book is called james madison: a life reconsidered. lynne cheney. thank you. >> thank you. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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