captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions >> woodruff: the death toll from a coal mine disaster in turkey continued to climb today. and while hopes dimmed for those still trapped inside, anger over the tragedy fueled violent protests nearby. good evening, i'm judy woodruff. >> ifill: and i'm gwen ifill. also ahead this wednesday, a portion of my wide-ranging conversation today with former president bill clinton. we talk health care, politics and income inequality >> it's really put a cramp in the whole idea of the american dream.

>> woodruff: plus, from music rehearsals, to gardening classes. how some seniors are choosing to stay active by returning to their alma maters. >> retirement communities like oak hammock, with ties to universities are a growing part of the american scene. estimates are that there are fewer than 100 of them right now, but those numbers are growing. >> woodruff: those are just some of the stories we're covering on tonight's pbs newshour. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: ♪ ♪ moving our economy for 160 years. bnsf, the engine that connects us.

>> united healthcare, online at uhc.com. >> supported by the john d. and catherine t. macarthur foundation. committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. more information at macfound.org >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> ifill: the death toll kept rising today in the coal mine disaster in turkey, and so did the anger. at least 274 miners were confirmed dead, with up to 150

others possibly trapped, after yesterday's explosion and fire. dan rivers of independent television news filed this report from the scene. >> reporter: grief is slowly replacing hope in soma. each emerging stretcher bears a miner and the faith of a family, for more than 24 hours this harrowing scene has played out, wives straining to see the face of each man, some recoiling in horror at what it means. the brothers and friends of those missing scream in frustration, their anger barely contained. this pitiful suffering has gone on for more than 36 hours and still the number of missing, dead and injured is unclear.

inside the mine shows the thick smoke, created after a power transformer exploded halting the lifts and starting a fire from which few have escaped. the turkish prime minister recep tayyip erdogan visited the mine today declaring three days of national mourning. but in the town of soma, a furious crowd of young people chant for the government to resign. the scale of the despair and grief here in soma is staggering, there are hundreds of families gathered here at the hospital desperately waiting for news of their loved ones, and with the arrival of each ambulance there is a mounting sense of dread. we find do you gor nearby, cradling her 18 month old son ismail, her other baby held by a relative, their dad ur cholak never came home from the mine, the family have been waiting for news here since yesterday.

she says, "may god save him for my babies, we are burning inside, waiting for 36 hours is not easy not knowing if he is dead or alive." the man's mother has also been keeping vigil here. she says, "i am waiting, telling to my son to come home, your kids are waiting here for you, you have to come back for them." but so far he like the others remains missing, in a disaster that has consumed not only individual families, but an entire community. >> ifill: mining accidents and poor safety conditions are common in turkey. after a fatal 2010 accident, prime minister erdogan said the risk came with being a miner. today, he promised this latest tragedy will be investigated to the "smallest detail."

flames destroyed at least 30 gnomes in karlz bad and other fires. they sent black smoke plume shooting high in the era cross san diego county. >> woodruff: the president of nigeria today rejected any exchange of jailed militants for 276 school girls held by boko haram. the head of the islamist group had offered the swap on monday. meanwhile, people in a northern village said vigilantes prevented a new attack yesterday, killing scores of militants and detaining others. >> ifill: in ukraine, the government in kiev opened talks today, aimed at granting more autonomy to eastern regions. the roundtable is part of a european-backed peace plan and involves political and civic leaders. but pro-russian insurgents in the east were not invited, raising questions about whether the talks will do any good. >> woodruff: negotiations over

iran's nuclear program entered a critical phase today. officials from the u.s. and five other world powers met with iranian officials in vienna. they're trying to reach a long- term agreement on curbing iran's nuclear activities by july 20th. meanwhile, defense secretary chuck hagel visited saudi arabia, and promised the u.s. will not trade saudi security for iranian concessions. >> we will continue to consult closely, closely with you as these negotiations progress. as i am here today, we will continue to hold iran accountable for its de- stabilizing activities across the region and we will continue working closely with all of our friends and partners in the gulf to reinforce their defenses against these destabilizing activities. >> woodruff: the u.s. and the other powers are pressing iran to make dramatic reductions in its uranium enrichment. iran is demanding an end to all

sanctions against its economy. >> ifill: the world health organization warned today of rising concerns about the deadly middle east respiratory syndrome known as mers. the agency said the outbreak of the flu-like illness is not yet a global emergency. but more than 500 cases have been reported worldwide, including two in the u.s. health workers who had contact with a mers patient in orlando, florida have tested negative. >> woodruff: on wall street, stocks tumbled a day after hitting all-time highs. the dow jones industrial average lost 101 points to close below 16,614. the nasdaq fell 29 points to close at 4,100. and the s-and-p 500 was down nearly nine points, at 1,888. >> ifill: still to come on the newshour: do this year's primaries point to a more polarized congress; bill clinton talks fiscal policy, foreign affairs and politics; how some seniors are heading back to college campuses for

retirement; frustration toward china spur unrest in vietnam; and a new novel exploring love, war and the collision of worlds. >> woodruff: just when you thought congress couldn't get any more polarized, think again. election results last night in nebraska and west virginia highlight a growing divide. in nebraska, ben sasse, a tea party-backed candidate, won the republican senate primary and is now likely to be their next senator. he would replace the more moderate republican senator, mike johanns, who is retiring. meanwhile, in west virginia, congresswoman shelly moore capito won the republican senate primary. she faces off against democrat natalie tenant, west virginia's secretary of state. capito is favored in that contest and would replace retiring democratic senator jay

rockefeller. here to walk us through all this is our political editor, domenico montanaro. so domenico, we just mentioned there what happened last night. but tell us about the rest of this misterm cycle what we're looking at. >> you mentioned nebraska and west virginia, two really good examples of what's been happening. but we also have in a lot of other states senate races where we know that there are going to be more conservative candidates for the most part in places like south dakota, montana, iowa and georgia, possible but in south dakota and montana, those are two states we're seeing democratic retirements. iowa as well where there's a democratic retirement now up for grabs. in georgia you had saxbe who was the original member gang of six china come up with the debt reduction plan. he floated the idea of possibly raising taxes going along with bowls simpson and that really drew the irs conservatives. he retired.

it doesn't matter who is going to replace him. democrats could win that race, remember. if a republican wins, very hard to see one of them coming out in favor of raising taxes. >> woodruff: you were mentioning the same thing you're seeing in the house. >> the house is one place where all of us would say how could the house get any more divided. you see people using pretty uncivil terms in the house more so than even the senate is call the upper chamber and the house sometimes derided as the lower chamber because of a lot of us. really what you're seeing because of a lot of moderates retiring a handful of states, democrats as well, you're going to see more of that movement to their own corners. >> woodruff: you know a lot of people look at this polarization and think it's a relatively new phenomenon but in fact you and i were talking earlier, it goes back generations. >> yes. so the bookings institution did a really good job on this graphics they created out of the national journal vote ratings that they do every year. they ran all the way back to the civil war. so we're going to start in

1941-42, right in the middle of world war two. the reason you see a lot of mixing here. these dots you see on the screen, they represent individual members of congress and how they vote. over on the blue side is more liberal, over on the right is more conservative and the higher up you go is the more orthodox they voted whether conservative or liberal and voted together as a party. you see a lot of people mixing and a lot going further down the line. that only moves 20 years later to 1963-64 when the civil rights legislation passed you start to see some divide. but you still see some mixing. people talking about lyndon johnson being able to get civil rights through because he was southern democrat and was able to get some of the southern democrats over. move ahead to the 1980's, and you see people talking about social security reform, they're able to do so much on that. and that's on large measure because there were still some people in the middle.

now, 1995, 1996, right after when the republican revolution happened, the gingrich contract with america and you start to see this divide set in. you see democrats there still moving toward the middle. some republicans as well meeting in the middle. and now when you look ahead to where we are today 2013 and look how far apart the two parties are. and it's going to get even worse. that's the one thing we know this time around. >> woodruff: it couldn't be any clearer from looking at that. domenico, why, i know there are a lot of reasons at work and you just mentioned some of them. but why is this happening? >> a lot of people talk about the lack of socialization, for example. there's a shorter week it seems people go home but there's a reason for that. primaries in which republicans and democrats only can vote in their own primaries really compromises not rewarded is orthodox. if you go away from that line, a lot of times you're going to

draw tea party opponent. we saw it for the republicans who draw tea party opponent. for democrat you see a more liberal. we saw that for example in north carolina because of her support potentially immigration reform and some others as well. you're seeing this a lot. not just with democrats-with republicans you're seeing that with democrats as well. a 4 blue dog democrats were members of the fiscal conservative democratic group in 2010. now just 189 of them remain. mostly that's the product of the 2010 midterm because they're playing on the republican turf and they were taken out by conservatives. >> woodruff: as you "we'll see more next week. we've got the georgia primary which you touched on. >> we talked about georgia. georgia, oregon, other states, kentucky for example where mitch mcconnell is trying to fight off an opponent and likely will. you're seeing a lot of these lines we've been talking about for the fall and also with polarization how far apart the two sides are and they really

never have been as far apart as they are today in the modern era. >> woodruff: i'm going to go home and study these dots. >> okay. >> woodruff: domenico montanaro, thank you. >> ifill: now, a conversation with former president bill clinton about economic growth, inequality, health care and foreign policy. i sat down with him earlier today in washington as part of a "fiscal summit" run by the peterson foundation. and the economy was naturally the place to start. here is a portion of our nearly hour-long discussion. i'm going to launch right in because one of the interesting conversations we've been having lately in washington and around the world is about inequality. it's back again. i went back and listened to a conversation we had on this stage three years ago and we were talking about it then. why do you think now, why is thomas suddenly such a big deal?

>> well first of all, it is severe constraint in growth for the country. and it is evidence of a loss of social mobility. the median middle income deducted from inflation is slightly lower than it was when i left office. and the cost of education and healthcare and other things. the average walking around person is having a pretty tough time. and it's also really put a crimp in the whole idea of the american dream. if you work hard you can do better than your parents did. what we should be trying to do is make sure we're growing in these times together and having the budget for the government and the right investment strategy is a part of it. but the end goal has got to be more vigorous job growth, tighter labor market which will

raise incomes. i'm also for raising the minimum wage that will help on the bottom and it will help the bill higher for the people covered by the minimum wage. >> ifill: mr. president you left office 14 years ago. we're now in the second term of a democratic president. i'm just curious about why we're talking about this now. why is inequality more on people's minds than it was during, even during the recession. >> well, because i think during the recession, if you're in the middle of the ocean and you think you're drowning, nobody wants to have a discussion about how you should have a better swimming pool in your backyard. i think we were just so glad they didn't run off and they could have. so you know, i think it's healthy we're worried about inequity that we got to figure out how to fix it and how to fix

it is, people like me, people in our income groups should pay our share of taxes for the same reason they sat in our banks. that's where the money is. and if you have prolonged inequity, you're going to concentrate wealth and if you have tax money that's where you go to get tax money. >> ifill: mr. president you and i have been talking about healthcare, obamacare you name it. here we are in the middle of another midterm election where as far as i can tell democrattics are running as far as possible in the opposite direction from embracing the improvements you say that the affordable care act have eddied. what is your thanks to them? >> i wouldn't do it but there may be some places where the well's been so closed and they have to do it. what i think, what i advise the democrats to do is talk about

the good things that happened, acknowledge the problems. so let's do what sensitive people would do. we had a problem we had to deal with, albert einstein couldn't have done it perfectly the first time. now let's set a long term repair process. nobody could have done this perfectly. >> ifill: that makes a bumper sticker, nobody could have done this perfectly. >> may be but people are pretty heart about it. when you remind people you got 100 million people now who can afford insurance because they're approved that pre existing condition can't be used against it. people can get benefits in their health insurance policy they couldn't before. you got three and-a-half million young people under 26 getting healthcare under their parents policy. we've got the doughnut hole in the senior citizens drug has been closed and they say $10 billion in drug purchases already, seniors have.

you have i think around four million people already in the medicaid expansion and eventually various states i think will come along. it's crazy not to do it. it's a beginning. and i think that people can handle the truth. talk about what's good about it, talk about the remaining problem. commit to the problem. that's the best political position. >> ifill: can i ask you about a couple issues on the foreign policy front, because if you were president now in the second half of your second term and you were facing down the russian bear and the humanitarian crises in syria and terrorism on the rise in nigeria and the middle east peace talks have just collapsed and they were raising benghazi again as a foreign policy issue. in what order would you try to tackle them and is any of it for growth or hope or possibility? >> well, i don't think benghazi is a whole different deal.

>> ifill: i know but i just threw it in there. >> we did, in my opinion hillary did what she should have done. she impaneled a very high level review committee with the immediately past chairman of the joints chiefs of staff patrick mullen who is back stage. and tom pickering our country's most distinguished diplomatic more republicans than democrats in his life. and they looked into what was wrong, they gave 20 men recommendations. they took them and started implementing them. and they established the fact that whether it was right or wrong in the past, secretaries states never were involved directly in these security decisions. and they also obtained what was an early mission of benghazi when all the people were killed and two of them were heavily armed c.i.a. contractors who were military combat and they were part of a group of 20

authorized to provide security among other things where they were in benghazi. and it's no -- the last time we had one of these made public was when i did it after the -- in 1998. most americans don't know how many diplomatic were killed during president bush. they don't know what recommendations were made, what if any action was taken to implement those. so i think my advice to everybody involved is to be not defensive and realize what this is and answer the questions. >> ifill: what is it? >> you just want me to get into a political fight. i'm not doing that. everything is very different. they want to reestablish russian

rightness not as the cold war but in 19th century impact. he believes russia was badly damaged and humiliated by the collapse of communism the end of the war, the loss of control more abroad. and he sees all these things in zero sum terms. the ukrainian reformers had a different idea. most of the western ukrainians seem to agree with them. we really want to be friends with russia, we want to get along with them. if you don't think they do, look at the map. i mean, would you have a healthy relationship with russia if you were located where ukraine is? but we want to be a bridge between europe and russia. and it was just outside of his imagination zone and so we are where we are.

it's not the end of the world. they invaded georgia too and took part of that. i don't agree with this and i think we have to be firm against it. but it's not the end of the world. >> ifill: you know i asked you about a lot of things in one question but i guess the overarching question for all of them, all of these issues is what is the u.s. president or u.s. government do in these situations anymore? >> well first of all, i think what we should recognize is we're living in a world with much more diffuse power centers. in which we're in this catch 22 because there are very few problems we can solve by our serves. and very few problems that can be solved without our involvement. so we're always being pressed to be more and more involved knowing that depending on hugh else goes along for the ride we will succeed or not and knowing that the span of our control is

subject to being undermined. >> ifill: final question depending on how you answer it has to do with health but it's about your wife's health. karl rove asked yesterday or raised the question over the weekend i guess about whether hillary clinton is well enough to run for president in 2016, and whether in fact she had suffered a brain injury. dr. rove wants to know as much as we do, whether that's true and whether it will affect her decision-making. >> well, first of all i've got to give him credit, you know. that embodies that old saying that consistent is the hobgoblin of liberal minds. first he said she faked her concussion and now they say she's auditioning for a part of the walking dead. [laughter] i mean you know whatever it takes.

look, she works out every week, she is strong, she's doing great. as far as i can tell she's in better shape than i am. she certainly seems to have more stamina now. and there's nothing to it. i didn't even, i was sort of dumb founded. they went to all this trouble to say she had a terrible concussion that required six months of very serious work to get over. something she never was involved with and american people didn't try to pretend it didn't happen. now they say she's really got brain damage. if she does, then i must be in really tough shape because she's still quicker than i am. [laughter] >> ifill: do you think this is their way of inserting her age or her physical capabilities into the 2016. >> i don't know, but if it is you can't be too upset about it. it's just the beginning they'll get better and better at it.

[laughter] i believe you know, i'm still waiting for her to admit there was nothing in whitewater. >> ifill: mr. president, thank you very much. >> thank you. [applause] >> ifill: you can watch my entire conversation with president clinton, which also touched on immigration and democratic prospects in the midterm elections, online. we've posted it on our website. newshour.pbs.org. >> woodruff: next, many americans have strong and nostalgic ties to their colleges and universities. some of those institutions are reviving those relationships by developing retirement communities for former students, and others. newshour special correspondent spencer michels reports on one such development, and it's residents, as part of our taking care series. >> reporter: have you been stung? >> many times. >> reporter: oh really? >> yeah, and the thing about getting stung, you really sort of get immune to it after a while.

>> reporter: ten years ago, when he was 69, ray goldwire and his wife anne moved into a new retirement home in gainsville, florida, north of orlando, and a few years later he began a new hobby: beekeeping. >> it's entirely different than anything i've ever done before, just like i started singing in the chorus this year because i had never sung before. >> reporter: the goldwires live with about 400 other residents at oak hammock. it's affiliated with, and close to, the university of florida -- ray goldwire's alma mater. it's a far cry from their first try at retirement living. >> i played golf three or four times a week, and we had our circle of friends, but there seemed to be something that i was missing. >> i got here and i thought, oh dear lord, what have i done? >> reporter: we had friends that told us we'd move into the

nursing home. >> as did our children. >> but they've changed their mind now. >> reporter: this is not a nursing home? >> no, this is not a nursing home. this is independent living. >> reporter: retirement communities like oak hammock with ties to universities are a growing part of the american scene. estimates are there are not quite a hundred of them, and more on the way, catering to the college-educated baby-boomer generation, which is now retiring. >> from stanford to oberlin, davis and duke to notre dame, cornell to the university of texas, retirement communities tied to the nation's top name brand schools are getting in on the game, aiming to tap the deep pride and deeper pockets of those aging baby boomers. >> reporter: goldwire says he likes it because he can stay active, attend performances, even get bussed to them, and hang out with academics and phd's. at classes held at the retirement community itself. judith plaut appreciates that she can even take classes on

campus, she's now taking one in horticulture, alongside the students. >> we worked in groups. they treated me like an ordinary member of the class. >> reporter: plaut, who was a medical social workers and her husband michael, who a psychologist, like about half of the residents here, have close ties to the university. they knew what they didn't want when they came to oak hammocks. >> because of my profession i put a lot of people in nursing homes, and a lot of times they're pretty crappy. and i didn't want that for us. >> reporter: right now, the goldwires and plauts are active participants in the community, and like most current residents live independently. but in case things change in the future there's an assisted living wing, where 100 year old alvera davison still serves as president of the wing. skilled nursing is also available, as is a memory unit for those who have dementia.

planning for the future is comforting, but also a bit disconcerting. >> when you come here you have to sort of get in the mindset that this is where you're going to be for the rest of your life, and that's hard for some people, and it was hard for us in the beginning, but we've adjusted. and if you could change anything, which you can't, is that a lot of these friends, they come in as a couple, and the one of the spouses dies, or goes into the memory unit, and that's sort of hard to take, particularly for the spouse, but for us as friends, too. >> reporter: to live at oak hammock, residents must pass financial and health tests. an entry fee for a two bedroom apartment or home, which the residents do not own- averages $350,000 $400,000, more for larger units. should they leave or die, their estates may get some back depending on how much was paid

up front, which contract they chose and how long they lived there. in addition there are monthly fees that can run as high as $5,000 for the first person in a couple. that covers 20-25 meals, activities and maintenance. the plauts had to think hard before deciding to move in, paying up front without owning their house. >> it's fine, because what we're buying is a sense of lifetime security. that's really what the tradeoff is. it's like an insurance plan. >> reporter: star bradbury, whose title is "director of life fulfillment," recruits new residents, although at this point most only can get onto a waiting list. she understands the math is tough. >> i wish i could wave a magic wand and make a lifestyle like this available to anybody, but the truth of the matter is, yes, you do have to pay an entry fee. we want and they want to know if

they move in here, are their finances going to last for their anticipated lifespan. sometimes i've had to say to people, "this isn't going to work for you, i'm really sorry." >> reporter: so most of the residents are wealthier than average, and almost all of them are white. bernie machen is president of the university, and both his parents lived at oak hammock until their deaths >> it has to have a business model that will work, and that's why a lot of people cannot afford to live there, there's no question about that. it is unfortunate but i think we've learned to accept that. >> reporter: he says for the university of florida, sponsoring oak hammock was a gamble, but one that paid off for the community. >> we're in a small community that doesn't have a very diversified economy, and the senior citizen industry is something we thought would be a boon to our community, and it turns out it is, it's a big taxpayer in our community. and we have a large alumni base and we wanted to use this as a

way to reconnect to our alumni base. >> reporter: but it isn't easy for a university to go into the senior living business. right, says andrew carle, who directs the senior housing administration program at george mason university. but not every school does. >> the problem a lot of universities have had is they don't know who the good senior housing providers are, the major leaguers from the minor leaguers. or, unfortunately, too many universities in my opinion try to do this themselves. and this isn't their area of expertise. >> reporter: the university of florida has done that, by hiring an experienced management firm to run oak hammock and keep it solvent. but carle warns if anything goes wrong at a university-based facility, the school's reputation can still suffer, and not every university can run one successfully. >> you have to have enough student volume and enough alumni volume to warrant the demand for that.

you need to have the amenities available. you're really looking at a significant level of athletics. a significant level of visual and performing arts. a significant ability to have a lifelong learning institute in place just for retirees. >> reporter: while oak hammock has remained viable for most of its existence, many university- based retirement communities had a declines in membership in the recession of 2008, a time when capital was scarce for new but senior housing was one of the first industries to make a strong comeback. occupancy levels are up, and predictions are that there will be explosive growth in places like this in the next decade or two. >> ifill: you can find a lot more on this topic online, including smart workout tips for seniors. that's on our health page. >> woodruff: tensions between china and vietnam reached a

fever pitch today, as thousands of protesters in vietnam went on a rampage over chinese actions in the south china sea. >> woodruff: clouds of smoke rose skyward over foreign-owned factories near ho chi minh city today, casualties in an escalating territorial struggle with china. rioters targeted industrial sites they believed were chinese-run, but a provincial official said some were actually taiwanese or south korean-owned. the mobs torched at least 15 plants. scores more were looted or vandalized. in beijing, the chinese foreign ministry demanded action to calm the situation. >> ( translated ): china is seriously concerned with these incidents. the foreign ministry has called in the vietnamese ambassador to china and lodged a solemn demand for vietnam to take immediate and effective measures to stop and punish the illegal activities. >> reporter: the protests,

rarely allowed in vietnam, began peacefully enough several days ago, but officials claimed today they'd been hijacked by extremists. they said 440 people were detained. vietnamese anger flared after the chinese began operating an oil rig in disputed waters near the paracel islands. they're controlled by china but claimed by hanoi. both sides have accused the other of intentionally ramming their vessels. chinese ships also fired water cannon at vietnamese crews. today, the vietnamese coast guard claimed chinese ships had once again blocked attempts to reach the rig. qtr today we got as close as 12 kilometers to the oil rig, and chinese forces reacted with many

ships and followed us closely. at one point, five chinese ships surrounded one of ours to stop us from getting close to the oil rig that is operating illegally in our territories. >> woodruff: china has rejected vietnam's complaints and defended its own actions. again, the foreign ministry spokeswoman. >> ( translated ): i think it's quite obvious who is the provoker, who is the victim, who is trying to calm the situation, and who is escalating tension. >> woodruff: in washington, the white house has criticized china's actions in the territorial dispute. but spokesman jay carney appealed today for calm on both sides. >> these are disputes that need to be resolved through dialogue, not through intimidation. and we are not a party to the specific disputes but we, again, urge dialogue and their resolution. >> woodruff: china is also involved in territorial disputes with the philippines and japan. >> woodruff: so, what does this latest flare up mean for the two countries and the region?

i'm joined by kenneth lieberthal. he was senior director for asia on the national security council staff in the clinton administration. he's now a senior fellow at the brookings institution, focusing on china. and gordon chang, a columnist for forbes.com and author of the "coming collapse of china." we welcome you both back to the newshour. gordon chang, what exactly happened in the south china sea that got the vietnamese so upset? >> well this is pretty simple. the chinese toed a billion dollar oil rig off the coast and they started to drill. now this is clearly within vietnam's exclusive economic zone. what's important is that china actually ratified the u.n. convention on the law of the sea which make it pretty clear that this is vietnamese waters. what the chinese have done is an aggressive act.

they certainly roiled vietnam. and they want to stop these protests in vietnam it's very clear what can be done. the chinese can take the rig away. china has these territorial claims of all of these countries in the region. they all have a problem with china not just vietnam. >> woodruff: we heard the chinese spokes woman it's clear who is the aggressor here. she meant the vietnamese. who is telling the truth? >> i think both sides think they're telling the truth. f rankally i think the chinese side acted assertively here not a very good situation. having said that, this is disputed waters. it falls within the exclusive economic zone of islands that china claims. and so simply pointing fingers and saying it's the other side fault isn't going to get us very far. >> woodruff: don't they know putting these in the waters would get them them upset. didn't they realize the people of vietnam. >> i cannot imagine they thought

vietnam would accept this without a lot of protest and they thought the people of vietnam would not be very angry about this. >> woodruff: in that case, gordon chang, why were the chinese prepared to go ahead and do this if they knew the vietnamese were going to react this way. >> i think there are a couple thing at work here. first of all you got a chinese political system in distress that's falling back on nationalism to bolster law gist mother see and the best way to show nationalism is to pick on a neighbor especially vietnam. what they are trying to do is test president obama because they put this rig into vietnamese waters about a week after the president left on his eight-day trip to the region is a trip of reassurance. what they're doing is saying to the region look the u.s. can't do anything. they're going to have to fall in line behind us, china. i think there's those two things that are working. and also china has these

teeterral disputes with everybody to assert their claims. >> woodruff: they're trying to send a message to the united states. >> i'm not sure. this kind of operation would have to be planned well before the obama trip to asia. so i'm not, i don't buy it was in reaction to what he did in asia. i do think that they are taking a very strong position to create facts on the ground. and demonstrate that they aren't going to be easily pushed off of their position. >> woodruff: the chinese and the vietnamese were allies at one point. i think back to the 60's and the 70's and the war in vietnam. maybe they weren't the closest of allies but they were working together. what caused this rupture. >> there is a very long history of tension between china and vietnam going back well before the communists in china and the communists in vietnam. so circumstances pushed them together in the late 60's.

but the nixon administration opening to china was no small part an effort to get china to demonstrate to vietnam that china was going to put priority on relations with the united states. vietnam couldn't count on that. and by the late 70's china and vietnam were fighting a border war. so there's no lack of animosity between these two countries over time. >> woodruff: gordon chang what do you believe the chinese ultimately want out of this. >> well they want everybody else's waters and you know clearly they want territory from other nations including india. and so you see china pushing out beyond its borders in an arc from india to south korea in the north. they want of course the mineral in the south china sea but they also want the access to the western pacific to get beyond what they call the first island chain. so this is very strategic for them as well. so there are a lot of things here but also i think they want to show to their own people that they are a strong nation and that they can get what they want. and that's very important from a

question of legitimacy for the communist party. >> woodruff: what do you believe the chinas are after here. >> in the maritime relations in particular? i think they want to be able to have a lot of leverage over what rules of the game are off the chinese coast, the east china sea and the south china sea. >> woodruff: for economic reasons. >> economic and security reasons, both. this has been an area where the united states navy has been able to move virtually not violating china's territorial waters but beyond the territorial limit, has had a lot of freedom of movement and the chinese are trying to push back on that. i agree with gordon that they want the resources that they think would be rich mineral resources in the south china sea. >> woodruff: gordon chang what do the vietnamese want out of this. do they want to live in peace with china or do they have their own territorial ambitions? >> nobody wants to start a war

with china much less the vietnamese. now of course the vietnamese and the chinese have been mixing it up for about a thousand years. the current government of vietnam doesn't want a conflict. what they want is china out of its schoofer economic zone which is that band of water between 12 and 200 nautical miles. of course the chinese want the para some l waters. they want a constructive dialogue. they tried to send a delegation and the chinese wouldn't talk to them. that shows a problem in the chinese capitol right now. >> woodruff: finally kenneth lieberthal where is this headed in the short storm. >> i think vietnam will try to rein in the demonstrations but i don't know where this is headed in the maritime areas. gordon is right they sought to negotiate with the chinese over this. they actually had a process of negotiation going on in the past

year and then china made this major move. i'm not sure where that's going to lead. broadly the u.s. is involved in that we have tried to push all parties in the region to act according to the u.n. law of the sea convention and what it dictates in terms of territorial disputes. have tried to get all countries to sign a code of conduct. the chinese see us as instigating problems for them and we see them as increasingly creating the problems that we all have to cope with. >> woodruff: clearly we will continue to watch this one. ken lieberthal, gordon chang, we thank you both. >> ifill: finally tonight, a fictional take on war, love and identity. jeffrey brown has our book conversation. >> brown: a young black man narrates his story of friendship and war in post-colonial africa. a young white woman narrates her story of meeting and coming to love that man

in a small midwestern american town. the new novel "all our names" explores lost and found identities and a collision of worlds. its author, dinaw mengestu, was born in ethiopia but has lived most of his life in the u.s. he's a 2012 macarthur fellow and now professor of english at georgetown university. this is his third novel. welcome to you. >> thank you. >> i'm curious, did this start with you with the africa part of the story or the mid west america story or was it always intended to be together. >> it began very much with the sea and from there began to go and what happened to the mid west. my initial idea was to see if i could tell a story deeply rooted in the particular moment of africa's history i hadn't had a chance to explore yet in my work. >> brown: why that particular moment. explain it's in the 60's or so when the u.s. was off in the colonial period but fella par. >> exactly. that was sort of an interesting idea. here was a moment of great opt

misyoual and great sort of potential. you had the end of colonialism and independent countries. i wanted to explore the possibility there are these young men drawn to these cities and make something better for themselves, for their countries. and of course at the same time we know now there is a sort of rise of chinese working in the shadows. so these great revolutionary leaders went on to be great leaders. there's a lot of hope and optimism i wanted to get out into fiction. >> brown: part of the brook incorporates the great fiction two young men one in particular that come to the u.s. but the other part is this mid west america and it's one that you actually grew up in in illinois. >> part of the story's set in the imaginary mid western town name laurel but it's very much rooted to my own experiences here in the u.s. coming from ethiopia and coming to the mid west and knowing a lot of people who nurtured and raised me wanting to see if i could tell a

story of imgreek not just from the point of people who come to america but from the story of the people who are actually here and have to welcome new people into their towns, homes and communities. >> brown: the setting of this story is before that time. the earlier period where just after segregation but where the white woman and the black african man cannot have a relationship. >> that is the sort of ways you can see these narratives as that so we often times send to think of post colonial period in africa sort of very distinted from what happened in the u.s. when i began to put those narratives side by side i thought after this, we had something similar in america. we had the civil rights, we had this sort of optimism and hope that came with the 60's. at the same tile the realization for all of those civil rights benefits there was still the problem of race that continued to persist. especially when you look at a couple. >> brown: the name, all our names, the title of the book,

it's almost literally about one's name, one's identification. but really losing one's identity. and reinventing one's self. >> and that's often times we tend to think of our identities and being very monolithic. you're sort of raised with one perfect identity but in fact i think we all experience multiple identities over the course of our lives. we leave our countries move to neat places. we become fathers, we become husbands, we become wives, we become mothers. and with every adaptation of that we expand our possibilities of who we are and what we can become. and so the characters in this novel, they are shifting their names, they're taking on new names. and sometimes they're forced into the names they are born with. >> brown: what does that phone for you as the author of these creators the creator of these characters. were you rethinking them as you, who are they really, what is their real name or did you have this all from the beginning. >> no, no. they were sort of scattered

wreck at the beginning of the novel. >> brown: scattered wreck. >> i definitely think so because i didn't know how they were going to be affected by all the different politics and things that happened in their names. each new change with each new upheaval they are forced to consider exactly who they are. they are forced to reand their relationships as not just sort of solid table things but very much fractured by the politics they life in. >> brown: another thing you do very well in different stories but also different places and different times. is that hard to do? >> it's not hard because it's such an essential part of who i am. i think part of what i've always been curious about is how you can merge these different landscapes and these different narratives. having been born in ethiopia having been raised in the mid west and essentially feeling i'm african and american at the same time. >> brown: that's completed that's how you feel. >> i feel that's one of the great sort of benefits of being an american, you can sort of merge these two identities and

feel neither one has to committee with the other. you can claim a certain ownership over both places. by writing about both places you can bring both of them into existence at the same time. you can say well here are people like me out there we're not just american, we're not just african but we are sort of hybrid complex characters made out of boast places. >> brown: you mentioned earlier this tradition, i don't know if you used the word tradition. but you were writing about that experience. it sort of tries to frame it a little bit, it's inevitable been, righted. what is it you see yourself bringing to that tradition which i'm sure you're well aware of. >> i think we often times like to think of the narrative in very singular terms. we think of the person who comes to america and automatically wants to sort of succeed and get involved and have a job and have a house. i'm always curious of other people who come not because they've chosen to but because they have to. i think you approach the new country with a radically

different perspective and you've been forced to flee because of violence because you've been forced out of your home rather than chosen to leave. that is a part of the narrative but it's a part of the narrative that often times gets sort of cast to the side in favor of a more populist story perhaps. >> brown: the new novel is all our names. dinaw mengestu, thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> woodruff: again, the major developments of the day. the death toll hit 274 in the turkish coal mine disaster. up to 150 other miners were missing and, possibly, trapped underground. brushfires in carlsbad, california, destroyed at least 30 homes, and authorities ordered evacuations for 11,000 other homes and businesses. and the president of nigeria rejected any trade of jailed militants for 276 school girls held by an islamist insurgent group. >> ifill: on the newshour online

right now. they don't build rockets to the moon, or develop life-saving cures, but scientists dedicated to basic research are solving the mysteries of the universe. so we asked some of them: why do you love your craft? here's some of what they sent us: >> ifill: all that and more is on our web site, newshour.pbs.org. >> woodruff: and that's the newshour for tonight. on thursday, margaret warner sits down with glenn greenwald, the journalist at the center of releasing edward snowden's n.s.a. leaks. i'm judy woodruff >> ifill: and i'm gwen ifill. we'll see you on-line and again here tomorrow evening. for all of us here at the "pbs newshour," thank you and good night >> when i was pregnant, i got more advice than i knew what to do with. what i needed was information i could trust, on how to take care of me and my baby. united healthcare has a simple

program that helps moms stay on track with their doctors and get care and guidance they can use before and after the baby is born. simple is what i need right now. >> that's health in numbers, united healthcare >> and by the alfred p. sloan foundation. supporting science, technology, and improved economic performance and financial literacy in the 21st century. >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

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