captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions >> ifill: the embattled secretary of veterans affairs faced tough questions from senators today over failures to provide adequate health care for veterans. good evening, i'm gwen ifill. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff. also ahead, today's somber dedication in new york, for the museum commemorating the tragedy of the 9/11 attacks. we take you there, then talk about keeping the nation safe today with the secretary of homeland security, jeh johnson. >> ifill: and margaret warner sits down with glenn greenwald. the journalist at the center of the national security leaks that revealed the scope of u.s. spying. >> the collection of 125 billion

emails and 95 billion phone calls every month-- it's one thing to say this is an out-of- control agency, it's another thing to see the quantity of what they're collecting. >> ifill: those are just some of the stories we're covering on tonight's pbs newshour. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: ♪ ♪ moving our economy for 160 years. bnsf, the engine that connects us.

>> charles schwab, proud supporter of the pbs "newshour." >> and the william and flora hewlett foundation, helping people build immeasurably better lives. >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> woodruff: gusty winds in southern california died down today, and that gave firefighters a window of opportunity to bring nine wildfires under better control. the fires started tuesday and burned through more than 9;000 acres in san diego county. the fast-moving flames burned several dozen homes, forced tens

of thousands of people to evacuate, and closed schools. fire officials said the dry conditions are the worst they've seen this early in the year. >> you can tell it's extremely hot, it's dry, we're early in may, we have a long fire season ahead of us, but know that we still have a lot of work to do here, days of work ahead of us, not only on this fire and the fires that occurred in the past several days, but the potential new fires that could start in the next several days to come. >> ifill: also in california, 10,000 gallons of crude oil sprayed into the streets of los angeles last night after a pipe burst. oil spewed 20 feet in the air and was knee-high in some places before the line was shut off. an environmental cleaning company vacuumed up most of the oil. and crews put down absorbent material to sop up the rest. >> ifill: stocks took a dive on wall street today on mixed economic news. the one bright spot was the labor department's report that the number of people filing for unemployment benefits fell to its lowest level in seven years.

the dow jones industrial average lost 167 points to close above 16,446; the nasdaq fell 31 points to close at 4,069; the s&p 500 dropped more than 17 points to finish above 1,870. >> woodruff: general motors recalled almost three million vehicles today bringing the company's total this year to more than 11 million. the five recalls just issued are for problems with brake lights, headlamps, power brakes and windshield wipers. the affected cars were sold mostly in the u.s. g.m. is in the midst of a major safety review after disclosing it had waited years before recalling cars with faulty ignition switches linked to 13 deaths. >> ifill: trade unions in turkey staged a one-day strike to protest what is now the country's worst mining disaster. the death toll rose to 283 as rescue teams kept up their search for bodies in the coal mine in soma, in western turkey.

we have a report from dan rivers of independent television news. >> reporter: the soil under which the miners of soma spent their lives toiling has carefully been prepared to accommodate their bodies. the families are still reeling from the catastrophe on the ground that has robbed this community of its heart. the coffins arrived throughout the day. each borne aloft by dozens of relatives. pride at the men who earned their living in such dangerous conditions. profound grief that they ultimately have paid for it with their lives. almas yilderem lost her son kader and is inconsolable. he was just 33.

his name means fate, but his family surely never expected his life to end so young. >> ( translated ): this is a man-made disaster. it's not the first time, it's not the fifth time. every year, we have an accident in soma. why don't they close it down? >> reporter: as we film, another member of the family is overcome with grief. the burden of the day is too much to bear. this is the awful reality behind the death toll. row after row of freshly dug graves. the harrowing scenes of families saying their last farewell after a disaster that is on a scale difficult to comprehend. these images have touched turks across the country. a nation reeling from the scale of the loss in soma. >> until now, everyone just knows numbers. and a number is-- no matter what it represent, it is a number.

but when it comes to seeing the graves that the people are being carried into, and the soil covering the bodies, it is terrible. >> reporter: but in several turkish cities, shock has given way to anger. this was izmir, a bastion of anti-government sentiment. in an already volatile country, this disaster and the government's reaction is fueling instability. there are many who think these deaths were preventable. who feel the mine's poor safety record was ignored. but while the politics of this disaster will rumble on for years, the people of soma are still numb with shock. >> ifill: what exactly caused the fire in the mine is still under investigation. initial reports suggested it was an electrical fault. >> woodruff: secretary of state john kerry today warned syria may have used chlorine in gas attacks on its own people. that comes two days after his french counterpart reported the regime used chemical weapons, including chlorine, in 14 small-

scale attacks in recent weeks. kerry, alongside the british foreign minister, also called syria's upcoming elections a farce. >> we start in one unified voice with rejecting any notion whatsoever that the elections that the assad regime has called somehow have any legitimacy whatsoever. there is no way for this illegitimate effort, for this impossible set of circumstances for an election to somehow give legitimacy where there is none. >> woodruff: back in syria today, amateur video captured an enormous explosion at a small military base in the northwest. activists said rebel fighters packed a huge amount of explosives in a tunnel beneath the facility near idlib province. they said at least 20 syrian government soldiers were killed. >> ifill: the captain of that capsized south korean ferry was charged with homicide today,

along with three other crew members. they fled the ship while it was sinking, before most of the passengers could evacuate. at least 284 people died in last month's disaster. most were high school students. if convicted, they could face the death penalty. >> woodruff: afghanistan set the date for a runoff election in its presidential race, june 14th. former foreign minister abdullah abdullah won 45% of the vote in the first round of voting, but that's not enough for an outright win. his nearest challenger is ex- finance minister ashraf ghani ahmadzai. the runoff coincides with the height of the taliban's spring offensive, increasing security concerns for the vote. >> ifill: up to 21 people have now died in anti-china riots in vietnam. a doctor said most of the victims were chinese. a huge mob attacked a steel plant in the central ha tinh province overnight. it was torched during fighting between vietnamese and chinese workers. the two countries are engaged in

a territorial stand-off involving a chinese oil rig in a disputed area of the south china sea. a chinese military general insisted today the rig is in chinese waters. >> woodruff: still to come on the newshour: tough questions over failures to provide vets medical care. a somber dedication for the 9-11 museum in new york. our conversation with the top official charged with keeping the homeland safe, jeh johnson. a push to get ex-prisoners health insurance. journalist glenn greenwald on n.s.a. surveillance. and controversial new rules for how the internet should work. >> ifill: veterans affairs secretary eric shinseki was in the hot seat on capitol hill today. facing tough questions from lawmakers investigating allegations that veterans may have died while awaiting treatment at a v.a. hospital in phoenix. and some believe there is even more to the story.

>> any allegation, any adverse incident like this, makes me mad as hell. >> reporter: veterans affairs secretary eric shinseki told a senate panel that he was angered and saddened by reports of delayed treatment and preventable deaths at v.a. hospitals. shinseki appeared to defend his agency against accusations that a v.a. hospital in phoenix falsified scheduling reports and that up to 40 veterans died awaiting treatment. he is facing mounting calls for his resignation. >> if any allegations are true, they are completely unacceptable if any are substantiated by the inspector general, we will act. >> ifill: later in the hearing, acting inspector general richard griffin said an initial investigation is trying to reconcile multiple accounts of questionable deaths. >> and the initial list that we

were given, we have gone through, and there are only 17 names on that list. on those 17, we didn't conclude, so far, that the delay caused the death. >> ifill: in addition to the v.a.'s internal review the obama administration has assigned rob nabors, a deputy white house chief of staff, to step in. shinseki told lawmakers he expects a preliminary report within three weeks to outline the extent of the problem. in spite of that pledge, senators on both sides of the aisle called on shinseki to do more. connecticut democrat richard blumenthal pressed shinseki to seek the help of the justice department. >> isn't there evidence here of criminal wrongdoing, that is, falsifying records, false statements to the federal government? that's a crime under the... >> it should be, yes. >> ...and wouldn't it be appropriate to ask for assistance from the federal bureau of investigation or some other similar agency, given that the i.g.'s resources are so limited.

that the task is so challenging and the need for results is so powerful? >> again, i will work with the i.g. to make that available to him if that's his request. >> reporter: nevada republican dean heller suggested that shinseki, faced with evidence of possible malfeasance, should simply step down. >> would you explain to me after knowing all this information why you should not resign? >> this is not a job. i'm here to accomplish a mission that i think they critically deserve and need. and i intend to continue this mission until i've satisfied either that goal, or i'm told by my commander-in-chief that my time has been served. >> reporter: alaska democrat mark begich wanted to know if shinseki would hold others accountable if the allegations

prove to be accurate. >> without getting ahead of decisions, i would say, manipulation of data, of the truth, is serious, with me. >> would you fire them? >> i will do everything i can. >> that's not the question. >> there is a process here, senator. let me not get out ahead of it. >> ifill: tom tarantino of iraq and afghanistan veterans of america. >> we can't sit around idle while investigation is underway. veterans need to see the secretary step out in front on this issue and lead. we want a proactive secretary, not a reactive one. >> ifill: but disabled american veterans director joseph violante, spoke in support of the embattled veterans chief.

>> while it may be weeks or months before the investigations and audits are completed, we continue to have confidence that the v.a. led by secretary shinseki can and will correct any problems identified or uncovered. >> reporter: veterans' groups also said access can be approved by providing more funding for veterans' care. >> woodruff: it was more than a decade in the making and today, scores of survivors, families of those lost and dignitaries gathered for a somber and emotional ceremony to dedicate the 9/11 museum. it's located at the site of where the towers fell in 2001. seven stories below ground hard by the bedrock that held back the hudson river and held up the world trade center towers, the haunting voices of a children's choir echoed through the new hall this morning. political leaders past and present gathered with victims' relatives, survivors, and

rescuers for the dedication. president obama was among those who praised the 9/11 memorial museum as a place for remembrance and healing, but he also recalled inspirational and heart-rending stories of courage. mr. obama spoke of 24-year-old finance worker welle crowther. who used his daily-worn red handkerchief to shield his face from smoke as he led survivors to safety. he carried a woman down 17 flights >> then he went back, back up all those flights, then back down again, bringing more wounded to safety. until that moment, when the tower fell. they didn't know his name. they didn't know where he came from, but they knew their lives had been saved by the man in the red bandanna.

>> woodruff: crowther's body was recovered in 2002. his mother allison later donated a similar red bandana to the museum in hopes it would inspire others. it's one of the many seemingly mundane articles on display now vested with a deep and enduring meaning. florence jones gave the shoes she wore that day she walked down 77 floors. >> i wasn't dressed for it, nor did i expect my boss to have to carry my shoes. i was one of the last of the 25 people to come out of the south tower. >> reporter: david beamer donated his son todd's watch. todd beamer helped lead the revolt against the hijackers of flight 93 which crashed in pennsylvania. >> but it doesn't tell what time it is anymore.

what it does tell is what time it was. it says its the 11th. >> reporter: built beneath the fountains and pools of the 9/11 memorial, the museum commemorates both the 2001 attacks and the 1993 world trade center bombing. at each turn, exhibits recount chilling and heartbreaking moments from that september day. massive, mangled pieces of steel torn apart by the impact of flight 11. a fire engine from ladder company 3 the front cab was shorn off. 11 of its firefighters died in the north tower. and portraits of each individual killed in the world trade center, the pentagon, and shanksville, pennsylvania. but there are symbols of resilience and hope, too. like the last column that towered above ground zero as the months of recovery came to an end, becoming a makeshift memorial itself

and there are the so-called survivor stairs that ushered so many to safety. north tower office worker kayla bergeron: >> i'd walked those stairs a hundred times, now they were all that separated us from the devastation behind us and life in front of us. ♪ >> woodruff: the museum will remain open to survivors, families, and first responders 24 hours a day through tuesday. it opens to the general public on may 21st. we are joined now by the man tasked with protecting the country from future terrorist attacks. among other things. as secretary of homeland security, jeh johnson oversees some 240,000 workers, spread across 22 government agencies. in addition to counter terrorism, he's responsible for everything from border security,

to immigration and customs enforcement, to natural disasters. secretary johnson, we welcome you back to the newshour. >> thank you, judy, good to be here. >> woodruff: so we're now 12 and a half years passedded 9/11, how much safer is the united states today then it was then. >> well, i think we have come a long way since 9/11 which happens to be my birthday. i remember the day well. i am a new yorker. i was in manhattan on september 11th, 2001. we've come a long way in terms of our counterterrorism efforts. i think we've learned how to do a pretty good job at detecting a number of terrorist threats to the homeland. but we have to be vigilant in a number of respects. al qaeda is now a much more decentralized entity with affiliates. and we have to always be vigilant in terms of potential home group threats. the so-called lone wolf.

and we saw an example of that with the boston marathon bombing last year. so we've got to be vigilant on a number of fronts. i still believe that counterterrorism needs to be the cornerstone of the department of homeland security's mission. >> so how much of the threats that worry you now are home groen, what percentage of proportion are home groin and what proportion are external? >> well, i would hesitate to try to quantify it. but i think that the potential for home group terrorist attack-- home grown terrorist attacks is something we have to be very concerned about. because in many respects it's harder to detect when you have an independent actor who may be living in our midst, in our own communities. and so it's one of the reasons i spent a lot of time working with state and local law enforcement, talking to sheriff, police chiefs like i did as recently as two days ago. they're the first responders. so we spend a lot of time in

the department of homeland security, working with them, training, grants, preparedness grants and so forth. because we are concerned about the home grown terrorists, home-grown domestic base threat in addition to the threats overseas. >> woodruff: it sounds like you feel more comfortable about that then would have been the case a few years ago. >> i think we have come a long way in terms of our ability to detect potential terrorist attacks in our counterterrorism efforts across the entirety of the u.s. government but we have got to stay vig lnt. >> let me ask you about some of the other issues that you have to work on every day. one is immigration. while you wait for the congress to decide what it's going to do one way or another about the question of immigration reform, we know the administration is looking at overhauling some aspects of your deportation policy, including undoing a program that really began in the bush administration, that targets undocumented immigrants who have been

found guilty of only minor offenses. and who have no prior criminal record other than that. why is this particular policy something that deserves to be, that should be overhauled or done away with. >> well, you're correct that we are evaluating our current enforcement priorities. that's something the president announced that he had asked me to do on march 13th. i have been looking at this since i took office in late december. part of that, i believe, is taking a fresh look at the secure communities program which is what you referred to a moment ago. in my judgement, secure communities should be an efficient way to work with state and local law enforcement to reach the priorities that we have. those who are convicted of something. the program has become very controversial.

and i told a group of sheriffs and chiefs that i met with a couple of days ago that i felt we needed a fresh start. and this is a conversation i have been having with a number of mayorses and governors. >> so could that happen. >> i believe that it will and it should. >> can you say when? >> we're in the midst of evaluating potential revisions to our policies right now. i've been having meetings as recently as today. >> woodruff: i've asked you because of course groups that are advocating for immigration reform and doing something about deportation have been raising a lot of questions. there's another issue that immigration advocates, immigration reform advocates have, and that is the so-called defer action program. that where currently as you know very well this is a program that protects children who were brought in by parents illegally. these pro reform groups want to expand that to the parents, to the families of these children.

is this something the administration is looking seriously at. >> we're looking at a wide variety of things. and i've talked to a number of individuals, concerned groups about the potential for expanding the program, revising our-- removal priorities. and i would say that we have to be careful not to preempt congress in certain areas, they are the lawmakers, whatever we do in the executive branch we have to do within the confines of existing law. so we have a fair amount of discretion when it comes to how we prioritize our enforcement activities and two years ago the administration developed the program which i think is a program that has been very effective. and-- the children only. >> this is for the children, correct.

>> woodruff: it sounds like you are saying this is less lakely to happen than what we were discussing about. >> i'm still in the midst of my review. >> woodruff: all right, let me turn around, because meanwhile while you are getting this pressure from immigration reform advocates there are those at the other side of the spectrum who think the administration hasn't done a good enough job with deportations, as you haven't been bring enough cases to court and they're critical from the other direction what dow say to them? well first of all i learned from my department of defence experience that when we're evaluating important reforms like this we need to talk to people across the spectrum who have a variety of different opinions and that's what i am doing. so i have spoken to those who are in the category you just described and i have spoken to those who are advocating change. and i hope that whatever we do reflects a balanced, thoughtful approach that encompasses all these points of view referred to.

>> woodruff: and finally secretary johnson, i want to ask you a question about border security, our public media colleagues at npr have done a series of reports in the last few months looking at border security, whether there is a pattern of unnecessary use of deadly or excessive force. we know there's been an investigation. is this, do you-- you've obviously looked at this do you believe the border patrol has used excessive force in a pattern that needs to be revaferpd so that the policy needs to be revamped? nesses with in six months i've been to the south border three times. and i have spoken to our border patrol people on the front lines. i think they do a terrific job every single day. i have spoken to the chief of the border patrol and what he and i decided we should do is make our use of force policies more transparent and the chief has mod-- modified those use of force policies to deal more explicitly with incidents like rock throwing,

for example, that change was made about two months ago and i think was greeted with a pretty positive reaction. so i think we're in a better place. >> so that's it for now in terms of revamping policy. >> we're always continually evaluating whether we should revamp policy. i think the change we made about two months ago has been, i think, positively received. >> woodruff: secretary of homeland security jeh johnson, we thank you for joining us. >> thank you very much, judy >> ifill: now, bringing health care to an often forgotten population. one out of three of those newly eligible for medicaid under the affordable care act are expected to be former inmates after their release from prison or jail. it's a story that hasn't gotten a lot of focus, but it represents a big change. sarah varney of kaiser health news collaborated with the newshour on this report. >> the santa rita jail

outside oakland, california, is one of the largest detension fa-- detention facilities in the u.s., some 3,000 inmates are currently housed here and many require medical treatment. >> hi, jackson. >> it costs the jail $28 million a year to provide medical and mental health services to the inmates. the pharmacy dispenses with 350,000 pills a month for conditions like depression, diabetes, high blood pressure, all common ailments among-- among defender-- offenders who tend to be sicker than the general population. >> we have all of the medications that are required by doctor prescription. >> reporter: the undersheriff for almeida county. >> we get a lot of sick people coming and physically ill people who come into our custody. we get them medicated and sort of stabilized. once they leave our facility, there is no way to know what was going happen to them in

terms of their medical care. >> reporter: when inmates in california and around the country are released, mostly prison or jail with no health insurance and little access to medical care but that's beginning to change. the federal health care law encourages states to expand medicaid to include all poor, single adults, not just those who are disabled or who have children. although medicaid won't cover medical care for prisoners except for longer hospital stays, public health experts say the change in the law represents an unprecedented opportunity for ex-offenders when they get out. >> historically 10, 11% have been eligible for medicaid that number is well over 90% as of january 2nd. >> the health director for almeida county says enrolling men and women who have been incarcerate mood medicaid will save the county money and help former inmates. >> when they do need care they come to the emergency department it cost us

between 6 and $800 a visit. so the cost drivers in our system are intense. we now have a chance to treat and reconnect communities, to care and support. >> reporter: the county is now making a big push to get men and women into medicaid when they leave jail. >> let's roll. >> reporter: donald williams is one of those on the front lines of the enrollment effort. a former inmate, williams now works for a nonprofit called healthy oakland patrolling the city's neighborhoods for those who might be he legible. >> pick up three or four guys a week and sometime i just get one. but it's basically all over-- all over oakland. >> reporter: on the day we caught up with williams he was pick up three young men who were recently paroled, giving them a ride back to the healthy oakland clinic so they could do something they have never done before, apply for health insurance. 25-year-old rodrigo spent two years in a maximum security wing at santa rita jail convicted of burglary, assault and gang

involvement. while inside he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and prescribed an anti-psychotic drug. >> i'm pretty excited -- >> no, you can't. >> everybody kind of told me like you got anger problems and you need to get some help. i started getting-- helping me be more relaxed, you know, like not some of on the edge. >> is there any medication are you supposed to be taking today. >> just respidal. >> and the milligram. >> 3. >> he got out of jail in february and soon ran out of his medication. he's getting a preliminary checkup at healthy oakland but when he gets his medicaid card can regularly visit a primary care doctor, refill his meds and see specialists like a psychiatrist. in fact, several studies have shown that ex-inmates who have access to health care when they leave jail, especially mental health and substance abuse counselling are less likely to reoffend. >> but not every one supports extending medicaid

benefits to those who have done time. the subject recently during debate on the fox news program fox and friends. >> so go to jail and get an insurance policy? >> no, go to jail and get obamacare. >> i think a lot of those people who work hard and play by the rules and are paying their taxes and paying their insurance bills say hey, i was told this was about helping people with preexisting conditions. i wasn't told that it was supposed to be about helping ex-convicts and people coming out of prison. >> a senior fellow at the manhattan institute, a conservative research group. while roy agrees that access to health care reduces recidivism, he says access to medicaid hasn't been shown to stop criminals from reoffending. >> as much as we might intuitively think this could be a way to address this problem, thus far it hasn't been the way that medicaid has evolved over the last 50 years, have made it very ineffective because a lot of physicians don't accept medicaid and don't see medicaid patients. as a result, it's very difficult for medicaid patients to get access to needed care. >> reporter: 19 states, many

lead by republican goff anies have chosen not to expand medicaid over concerns about cost and federal overreach. another five states are still debating their plans. that decision affects all poor, single adults in those states, not just ex-inmates. states that do expand, though, stand to receive a significant infusion of federal funds to cover all of those newly eligible. efforts to target men and women who have been incarcerated are under way in colorado, oregon, illinois and elsewhere. here in oakland the county expects to encole-- enroll some 18,000 medicaid eligible inmates and detainees in the coming years but even supporters like alex briscoe admit a medicaid card is no panacea for lives. >> you can't-- it is about a sense of needing and belonging, about a place to sleep. so all of those basic human needs have to be met too. but health care can be a tool for social justice if it is delivered effectively

and creatively that is item medicaid expansion is such a great opportunity for us. >> still t may be some time before ex-inmates like rodrigo receive any benefits. california like other states has been overwhelmed by new medicaid applications. and it's taking months for people to receive their benefits. >> our >> ifill: our partners at kaiser health news have more reporting on how the numbers of mentally ill behind bars have grown substantially. you can find that online. >> woodruff: we return again this week to the u.s. government's surveillance programs. on tuesday, i spoke with general keith alexander, who recently stepped down as head of the national security agency. tonight, we look at the topic from another point of view. journalist glenn greenwald was the first reporter to meet with edward snowden when the disgruntled former n.s.a. contractor wanted to reveal the secrets of the agency.

the newshour's chief foreign affairs correspondent margaret warner sat down with greenwald late yesterday in washington. they discussed that initial encounter and much more, which he details in his new book, "no place to hide: edward snowden, the n.s.a., and the u.s. surveillance state." congratulations on your book. >> thank you very much. >> warner: now are you an experienced skeptical journalist. and yet by the end of this process you seem to be admiring of edward snowden s that the case and if so why. >> it is definitely the case. i subjected him to very, very rigorous interrogation over the course of many hours, both first over the internet and then in person. and it was only once i began to see that the choice he had made was extremely thought through that there was a really complicated moral reasoning process that lead him to do what he did, did i begin to trust him as a source. and then as i began to know

him over time, have a better understanding of what drove his decision, i do consider ed heroic and noble for someone of that age to be that self-sacrificing in pursuit and in defense of the political values they believe in. >> warner: in this dramatic early chapter about your ten days in hong kong interrogating him there is one thing that doesn't ring true to you for a long time which is his rationale. until he starts talking about how important privacy is to actually the essence of being human. explain that. >> that was for me the towering question from the beginning which is why would a 29-year-old with a very stable career in a lucrative job and a girlfriend who loves him and a family who supports him and his whole life in front of him be willing to unravel all that and throw it all away with the likely outcome of spending his life in a cage in the american penal system. i needed to understand the moment that it was a choice made of agency and autonomy. and what he ultimately described to me was that for people his generation, who

grew up in a culture where the internet wasn't just some instrument that you used for discreet tasks, but was really a world unto itself, it is the place where people explore who they are. it's where they choose what to read. it's where they express their preferences and interests. it's where they make their friends. it's where they communicate in the most intimate ways. things that you will only do if you think that other eyes aren't casting a judgemental glance at you. and once the internet gets converted into the most oppressive surveillance system human beings have ever known, all of that is lost. and not only is that lost collectively, but it's lost personally. and it was something that he couldn't in good con shebs allow to be attacked without taking a stand. >> warner: let's talk about the new revelations that you pulled out of the snowden archive. one had to do with the scope of the nsa's ambitions. and you published a slide, that 2011 nsa slide called new collection posture. it starts with collect it all and it ends with know it

all. do these archives show that their ambitions are really that great? >> they show that they're limitless, in exactly the way that that slide describes. so this to me is the central point of the debate we've been having since the snowden revelations began. which is the nsa in order to reassure the public that they are not menacing and threaterning, continue usely claim that they are this targeted, discriminating agency that only is interest in the communication of terrorist, of other people posing national security threats. and the documents reveal an nsa that is a rad-- say radically different things in private when they thought that nobody would ever hear what they were saying. which is really an expression of this idea that there should be no place in the digital world, on the internet or on telephones with where you can go and communicate free of the nsa's intrusive eye. and to look at documents which describe the collection of 125 billion, with a b, e-mails and 95 billion phone calls every

month is shocking in terms of its vastness. it's one thing to say this is an out of control agency. it's another thing to see the quantity of what they are collecting. >> but now nsa, former nsa chief keith alexander who was on our program this week, president obama said look, that is misleading. we are not actually looking at the content of almost any of those e-mails and phone calls without a warrant. the stakes have-- mistakes have been made, people have been punished but there are very few. >> that is an incredibly misleading statement. in a variety of ways. for one thing, under the law, they are actually permitted to read the e-mails and listen to the telephone calls of american citizens wro a parent-- warrant, in any case where those american citizens are communicating with foreign nationals whom they've targeted which happens very, very frequently. beyond that, it is extremely difficult to know when you're looking at internet data who is an american citizen, and who isn't an american citizen. >> let's turn to another element, the cole use of the private companies. because these archives seem

to show tremendous coon raise between the big internet and telecom companies with the surveillance. dot archives tell us why? in other words, is it willingly, is it, are they coerced? are they duped? >> it's a little bit of all of that. so one of the claims that the tech companies like facebook and google and yahoo! make in response to these stories is we cooperate with the nsa only to the extent that the law obligates us to do so. but when it comes to foreign nationals meaning 95% of the planet, the nsa has almost no legal constraints on what kinds of collection they can ken gauge it. so when they go to facebook or yahoo! or google and say we want the e-mails and chats of these specific foreign nationals, the companies are obligated to give it. there's no warrant requirement there is to going to a court. then there are other instances in which the companies go beyond what the law requires and cooperate eagerly and actively with the nsa to insurance better access than the law even says they should give.

>> warner: so who is watching these companies? do you think that could be the next shoe to drop, that people inside some of these companies equally up set with what is going on may start leaking. >> there are a large number of people, i know for certain, within these companies extremely indig nent over the cooperation these companies have given but there is a lot of documents in the vaults and files of these companies that i think ought to see the light of day. but we have had sources inside the tech country that, who have indicated that they do have information they want to make public. >> now edward snowden has critics, first of all from the intelligence community. keith alexander former nsa chief said just this week that once again our tools are being publicly revealed. we put our nation and our allies at greater harm. people are going to pay for this with their lives. >> in every case it is a script in-- this transparency is going to damage national security, it's going to result in the loss of lives. they never offer any evidence for it. there's never any specifics proved. and it has proven to be false in virtually every

single case. the reality is that edward snowden gave us many tens of thousands of documents and even though we have had them for close to a year, we published a relatively small percentage of them because we have been so pain stake and careful and meticulous about making certain that the only documents we're publishing are ones that don't put innocent people in danger. >> warner: you have also been contributes of the left. david cole, noted constitutional lawyer here am washington, big civil liberties advocate does say that you don't acknowledge that in this digital age now the choices are more difficult. i mean what is the line in your view between legitimate activities by the nsa and protect the privacy rights that americans cherish and many people around the world do. >> i think people who, whether there is evidence to believe they are engaged in serious wrongdoing or violence are legitimately surveiled. i think people who are guilty of absolutely nothing should never be monitored or scrutinized by their government. we had a framework in place

for four or five decades it that draws from the fourth amendment in which the country was born, in a rebellion against the idea of general warrants. the idea that whole communities or cities or state cobs put under surveillance by the king and that kept us safe with the cold war. they could certainly keep us safe now. >> warner: and you know the counterargument is that unless you see the dots you can't connect the dots. and these are digital dots. and you're trying to map a matrix of connections that are otherwise hard to en trait. >> right, so if you read the 9/11 report, it's very clear when it says that the nsa and the u.s. government and the fbi had in its possession all of the dots, it had in its possession the clues to know the plot of 9/11 was coming and the reasonable it failed to detect it wasn't because they hadn't collected enough t was that they connected so much that they didn't know the meaning of what it was they had. they weren't able to make sense of what they had. so the response of that was to say well now we're going to go and check everything. and when you are collecting billions of calls and

e-mails every day, as the nsa is, it becomes harder, not easier to find the person who is plotting to attack the boston marathon or to explode an airplane over detroit on christmas i dachlt the only other thing i would say, we have a history in the united states, it's very clear, which is that if you have vast surveillance power in government officials to spy on whoever they want without real oversight it will not sometimes or usually but inevitably be abused and very serious ways. >> warner: glenn greenwald, thank you very much. >> thank you very much as well >> ifill: the federal communications commission took a big step forward today toward changing the rules that govern an open internet. at stake: a widely cherished principle called net neutrality. the f.c.c. voted three-to-one to allow providers to charge for faster access in how content is prioritized and delivered. during a packed meeting interrupted at times by protesters, f.c.c. chairman tom

wheeler said the internet could remain open as long as broadband providers do not offer access that is commercially unreasonable. >> as i said there is one internet it must be fast, it must be robust, and it must be open. the speed and quality of the connection the consumer purchases must be unaffected by what content he or she is using. the prospect of a gatekeeper choosing winners and losers on the internet is unacceptable. >> ifill: cecilia kang of the washington post was there today. and she's back with us to help explain the changes the f.c.c. has planned. explain the debate that was behind this 3-2 vote. >> well, the debate behind 39-2 vote is really what truly in the end will be best for consumers in

terms what is the most open and neutral internet as you say. now unpacking some of that jargon, two of the commissioners the democratic commissioners that ultimately voted in favor of the chairman's proposal, they don't like the idea of what could become fast lanes on the internet and if i can back up a little bit the reason why is that consumers have taken for granted that any internet content that they visit on the web is delivered equally at the same speed. the speed that you pay your internet service provider for. what was approved today could change that structure in that internet service provides like telecom and cable companies that provide the internet into your home can decide to charge web sites for faster or premium delivery of content. and that means higher quality content. >> well, explain this to me. two republicans on the commission, basically don't think that internet should be regulated at all. but why did these two democrats who i you say have

these misgivings decide to support this. >> they decided to support this in the first step at least in answer or at least addressing questions and asking questions to the public about what is the best way to approach what's known as net neutrality. and find you these rules also come with a basic provision that internet service providers can't outright block content on the internet so that they support. what they don't support is again this idea of paid pryor at thisization or faster lanes on the internet-based on what companies pay the most for that so they said very carefully in very unattorney terms that that portion of the rules they don't like. but they're at least willing to move forward on asking those questions for the public to comment on for the next four month, actually. >> there has turn mood quite a passionate debate for a communications regulation. people have been camping out at the fcc.

the tech companies versus the telecoms. how, what were the protestors protesting exactly in the room today? >> right. the protestors and this is the most action i have ever seen at the fcc in terms of the public interest in this. it really shows that internet service has become a very mainstream issue and this particular ruling has generated a lot of mainstream consumer interest. and what they were saying is they don't like the idea again of fast lanes on the internet. they want to keep the internet as is which is this neutral ground where consumers get to pick what sites they want to see and the quality based on what they pay their internet service provider, not based on the deals that are cut behind the scene between businesses that operate on the web and the internet service provides that provide the connection. they also want the fcc to really rethink and reimagine their whole regulatory approach to broad wand internet because high-speed internet now has become in

the minds of many people sort of a utility. and the fcc has has grappled with how do they do the new-- when they don't really have a regulatory structure in place. >> the president, the white house put out a statement today saying they are for an open there and free internet. everybody in this debate say they are for an open, fair and free internet but they don't come down on the same side with how you get to that there is a lot of lobbying going on and i bond wrer is the administration in this? the administration has tried to keep an arms length from the fcc in that the fcc is an nip agency. they certainly are monitoring the action right now at the fcc and plans moving forward. they stress that it is an independent agency. but the chairman at the fcc is president obama's pick. and he is/who came in, the chairman of the fcc tom wheeler with the promise to

carry out president obama's ambition to create net neutrality rules, so there is this kerx a soft connection, if you will, between the administration and the federal communications commission. but definitely the devil is in the details. everybody says they are for an open internet who would say they're not against that. but really what that means in terms of what consumers will pay, what sites are going have the best access to consumer, whether start-ups will have a harder time competing with the big giants in silicon valley because they can't afford to pay internet service providers in a way that maybe safe but netflix and google k those are the real questions that will be kd at the fcc in the next several months and that is really what is at stake, really changing not only the economics but the consumer experience on the internet. >> you say there is only a few months of comments when it is open for everybody to weigh in. can that actually change the outcome? >> it certainly can.

after 60 days in comments and then another 60 days of reply, there's going to be a lot of consideration and you're going see sort of a filtering down of the ideas that are most popular and most concerning in these public comments. and the fcc because this is all public and all these filings are available for anyone to read be the fcc web site, it will be hard for the fcc to ignore any glaring, common concernses across a lot of these comments that are expected to come in. so the fcc can rewrite, retweak this idea especially on fast lanes. but even if it does allow for fast lanes and promises as the chairman said today to make sure the consumers will be protected and any sort of paid priority will be commercially reasonable, another question really is whether the fcc has the ability to be a good cop of these things that it has the resources f it can detect if

there are bad players on the internet on behalf of the per net service providers, so these are larger questions about, again, the role of the fcc in this new internet economy when it really doesn't have a lot of authority and hasn't had a big history in regulating the internet so far. >> so many questions still to be resolved in the next several months. cecilia kang from "the washington post," thank you for being our guide. >> thank you >> ifill: again, the major developments of the day. one of the nine picked up steam. and president obama joined 9/11 survivors and rescuers in new york to dedicate the memorial museum at the site of the attacks. >> woodruff: on the newshour online right now, nearly forty years after the fall of saigon, the spirit of the soldiers who

fought in vietnam's jungles lives on in the woods of oregon. a new documentary follows a group of reenactors who are committed to authentically recreating the vietnam war right down to the 1970's slang they use. you can watch some clips from the film, on art beat. all that and more is on our web site, newshour.pbs.org. >> ifill: and that's the newshour for tonight. on friday, 60 years after the landmark supreme court case. we take a special look at how "brown v. the board of education" changed the nation. i'm gwen ifill. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff. we'll see you on-line, and again here tomorrow evening with mark shields and david brooks among others. for all of us here at the pbs newshour, thank you and good night. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by:

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