>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with the indictment of chinese hackers accused of attacking american corporations, and we talk to david sanger and richard mcgregor. >> what the united states says it does not do is spy on behalf of commercial american firmdz. it doesn't take information from china telecom and give it to at&t. whereas they say what the chinese do-- and the evidence suggests very strongly that they do do this-- they might steel from westinghouse and give to a state-owned enterprise that compeets with westinghouse. to the chinese, this distinction makes no sense because the chinese view economic security and national security as a whole. >> rose: we turn now to

broadway and daniel radcliffe starring in a new play called "the cripple of inishmaan." >> what makes this play great is it pulls off a very tricky balancing act between two totally different tones. it's both incredibly cruel and brutal and-- and-- and sad in some ways, in terms of billy's life, in the way people treat each other. and yet it is also kind of a laugh a minute. >> rose: we conclude this evening with director james gray and actress marion cotillard. the film is called "the immigrant." >> the first time i read the script i-- i don't know exactly how to explain but for smee it was the-- they looked like kids-- like-- with something pureed in of them, even if some of them have more darkness, i would say. but yeah, some kids in the woods

fighting to survive and surrounded by hope and beauty. >> rose: david sanger, richard mcgregor, daniel radcliffe, james gray, and marion cotillard when we continue. >> there's a saying around here: you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: on monday, the united states government accused five chinese army officers of hacking into american companies. the breaches are believed to have taken place in a bid for competitive advantage. the officers are being charged with steeling trade secrets and internal document documents frol u.s. companies and a labor union. u.s. attorney general eric holder said the alleged breaches were significant and demanding an graestles response. >> it is in the interest of china, it would seem to me, to be seen as respecters of the rule of law. our hope will be, as a result,

cooperate with us. to the the extent we do not have that cooperation we will use all the means available to us to ultimately have these people appear in a federal court here in the united states in the pittsburgh and be given due process of the american law. >> rose: the chinese government denounced the charges and accused of united states of hypocrisy. joining me from washington david sanger of the "new york times," and richard mcgregor of the "financial times." i'm pleased to have both of them on this program this evening. richard, let me begin with you. exactly what does this indictment allege? >> it allegation widespread trade secrets, e-mails by five chinese military officers stationed in suburban shanghai stationed out of a technology unit we could say charitable,y, but basically a full-time hacking unit, espionage hacking

unit. and if you believe what the u.s. has been saying for some time this is really the tip of the iceberg and the start, if you like, the new normal of how the u.s. is going to approach this issue of economic espionage. >> rose: david, why these guys rather than their bosses? >> that's a great question, charlie, and we don't entirely know yet. the case against these guys is relatively easier to make than against their bosses. these are some of the same people who were written up in that mannediant report in early 2013 that the-- that we wrote a fair bit did at the time in the "times" when we went out and found that building and so forth. many of the individuals here are the people who actually sit at the keyboard and have identified themselves or are identifiable at moment where's they have shown up on various chat rooms or other online activities. identifying their bosses is not

only a little bit harder to do but is a lot riskier to do diplomatically, because at that point, the chinese could well retaliate by throwing out u.s. military attaches or indicting american n.s.a. officials who they believe are responsible for some of the u.s. spying in china, including a big case that we wrote about a few months ago, and i think discussed on this show, involving wawai, the chinese networking company. so there's a question here of doing this at a low level, sort of like throwing out low-level diplomats in hopes of control the escalation. >> there is already a substantial escalation, but if you went over these guys' heads it would turn it into something altogether much, much bigger and maybe harder to quarantine diplomatically. >> rose: do you expect them to quarantine it, or is the cat out of the box? >> that's hard to say.

for the moment, the chinese have, obviously, replied angrily with the usual histionics. they have only canceled one important meeting or one important stream of meetings. if that's all that happens, it may be, relatively speak pentagon, quarantined for the moment. many of these alleged incidents of hacking involve trade cases and trade disputes between the u.s. and china-- hence, for example, the hacking of the u.s. steel union. and if it spills over into the trade arena and actual theft of trade secrets by, you know, chinese individuals stationed in china from american servers and the like, then it becomes part of actual trade despites, then i think it starts to slip into another realm altogether. >> rose: david, after snowden, who has the high ground, the moral high ground, if anybody? >> it's hard to say, charlie, because the u.s. position until now has been, look, big

countries spy against each other. it happens all the time for national security purposes. what the united states says it does not do is spy on behalf of commercial american firms. it doesn't take information from china telecom and give it it to at&t. whereas they say what the chinese do-- and the evidence suggests very strongly that they do, do this-- is that they might steel from westinghouse and give to a state-owned enterprise that competes with westinghouse. to the chinese, this distinction makes no sense. because the chinese view economic security and national security as a whole. and there's no question from the snowden revelations that the u.s. does go after chinese companies, including china telecom, including wawei, and there's a longs other list. the other difficulty, i think, that the u.s. runs into here is one that richard touched on, which is if the chinese are spying to understand american positions in trade negotiations,

well, the u.s. has done that for years. back in the 90s, we wide wired p the limousine of the chief japanese negotiator in auto talks. he later became prime minister. and we did that to get economic advantage in those talks. >> yes, that's-- let me add, charlie, if you look at one of the most sensitive documents that mr. snowden leaked-- and that is the intelligence black budget -- and if you look at that, it actually sets out in there the intelligence community will be using its full resources to support u.s. trade enforcement efforts. i mean, it's there. just as all big countries spy, most big countries spy in the middle of trade disputes as well to get a negotiating advantage. >> rose: i'm sure that president xi and president obama talked about this when they met in california. the question is why these indictments now? >> well, charlie, one american--

former american official told me there was a pretty big debate a year, year and a half ago inside the administration about whether to act against these actors at that time. certainly there's nothing in the evidence we saw in this indictment that wasn't available to the u.s. government last year or the year before. i think what happened was that the snowden disclosures basically set the obama administration back on its heels. and they needed to regain the initiative because they were afraid that otherwise it would run through the entire term with the chinese convinced that the snowden events had taken the wind out of the sails of any u.s. effort to enforce on this. >> i mean, charlie, you remember when president obama met president xi in june, i think, in california last year, and the u.s. laid out eye mean mr. obama, president to president, laid out the fact that the cyber theft, as tom don lin described after that meeting was the single biggest economic

issue between the two countries. and i remember covering that press conference and jumping in my car and driving back to the airport and on the radio just after that, edward snowden unveiled himself in hong kong. and i think that really put the u.s. off balance on this issue and it's taken them some time to attempt to try to-- try a new way of tackling it. >> rose: i talked to president obama right after the meeting in california, and we talked about this issue. here's what he said then. >> every country in the world, large and small, engages in intelligence gathering, and that is an occasional source of tension but it's generally practiced within bound. there is a big difference between china wanting to figure out how can they find out what my talking points are when i'm meeting with the japanese-- which is standard fare, and we try to prevent them from

penetrating that and they try to get that information. there's a big difference between that and a hacker directly connected with the chinese government or the chinese military breaking into apple's software systems to see if they can obtain the designs for the latest apple product. that's theft. and we can't tolerate that. and so we've had very blunt conversations about this. they understand, i think, that this can adversely affect the fundamentals of the u.s.-china relationship. we don't consider this a side note in our conversation. >> rose: president putin is in asia. what do you make of what he's trying to do in his relationship with china? >> well, charlie, everybody's got an asian pivot under way, and i think it's putin's turn to

show whether or not he can actually go deliver on it. i think he recognizes that with the sanctions that are under way against russia after the crimea and ukraine events, that he needs a major trading partner. and i think he believes that right now, he's at one of those moments where u.s. relations with both china and russia are down pretty low. and so he sees an opportunity here to together in a way that the two countries have never managed to do since the end of the cold war. >> remember, the pivot is as much a backlash as anything else. it's a backlash against china for many southeast countries and japan and the like. it's the opposite with russia. as the u.s. falls out with russia, it's naturally drawn much closer to china. but i think we should wait and see for concrete initiatives coming out of this, particularly on gas. the china and russia have had

countless top-level meetings in the paf 10 years but they still have a very distrustful and very wary relationship and i'm not show sure they can work together that closely. >> rose: david talk a bit before we go how you see the iran nuclear negotiations going at this stage. >> well, they just hit last week, charlie, i think the first inevitable blockade. it may be-- we hope it is-- just a temporary one. but last week was the week where both sides had to sit down and begin to tuly draft what a final agreement would look like. and lpork and behold, what happened? they both discovered huge sticker shock. the iranians can't get their heads around the thought that they might have to cut by two-third or three-quarters the number of centrifuges they have-- that's th equipment that enriches uranium-- the americans

had to deal with an iranian demand that they might increase by three- or four-fold the number of centrifuges so they could produce fuel for a set of reactors, nuclear reactors that they have yet to build. so this is the moment where we're going to discover whether these are just negotiating positions or whether both sides are so stuck in the cement because of their constituencies at home that neither the clerics or the iranian revolutionary guard on the one hand will allow the iranian negotiators much room and she congress may not allow president obama much room. >> rose: thank you both very much. see you soon. back in a moment. stay with us. daniel radcliffe is here. for many fans he was the face of the harry potter films. he has moved beyond into roles that ranged from a dancing con man in "how to succeed in business without really trying" to the film "kill your darlings." his latest character is in "the

cripple of inishmaan." he plays a disabled irish orphan who dreams of a better life and of falling in love. the "new york times" calls it, "his most satisfying stage work to date." i'm pleased to have daniel radcliffe back at this table. welcome. >> thank you, thank you very much for having me. >> rose: tell me what you said as you said down, if you're in a martin mcdonagh play, your role is not to screw it up. >> after the show, everyone is saying the same thing, on the whole really really enjoy the play and have a great time and great experience and the thing i say is we are incredibly lucky to be doing such a fantastic play. i feel like a lot of the teem actors have to try sometimes have to-- they strive to elevate the material to more than it is, and actually with a play this good, all we have to do is, as you said, not screw it up. >> rose: what makes it great? >> i think what makes this play

great is it pulls off a very tricky balancing act between two totally different tones. it's both incredibly cruel and and brutal and sad in some ways, in the terms of billy's life and the way people treat each other, and yet it's also a laugh a minute and martin keeps you laughing, and really laughing from your belly, laughs that you don't see coming and it takes your breath away with laughter throughout the play. there's that sweet spot-- martin's characters are all such-- big characters. my auntie kate talks to ghost -- >> the village newsman. >> and they're all larger-than-life characters. if you played them in the grounded way they hope we are, it hits a sweet spot between the heightened nature of his play and the reality which has an

emotional impact i hope. >> rose: tell me who billy is. >> billy clavin is the character i play, and he is, as you say, an orphan, and he's never had any information, or his life has been a massive of swirling rumors about the circumstances of his parents' death, were they trying to abandon him? were they is thin is they settia in hopes they would send back to him? and he has no idea and grows up with a sense of maybe he was never wanted, and also because of the disability he lives with, that leads people to treat him in a manner which, unfortunately, people with disabilities were often treated in the 1930s. and he's not only-- not only is he dismissed and his dreams and aspirations sort of dismissed, but also just the way he's treated as is sort a pretty relentless --

>> what's his disability? >> in the script-- martin left it vague so any actor coming in could put their own interpretation on it. the line of stage direction that describes him as, "billy enters the room, one bad arm, one bad leg shuffling." and that's all you have to go on. and i, with one of my vocal coaches went through the scrept and kind of identified certain clues that martin gives, like this is something that was-- that billy was born with. this is something that affects the one side of bod his body. rather than doing something generalized, i wanted to make it something specific so i could really learn about it and have an actual physicality to base the part on. so i started researching into a branch of cerebral palsy called hemipleejia, is what i determine billy could have. >> rose: the interesting thing here about the disability is that it means he shuffles, and that in the beginning is a kind

of hinderence to his desire for a relationship. >> yes. well, i mean, i think his desire for anything is sort of-- people refuse to see him as anything but a disability. people don't see him as a young man with aspirations to be in film or a young man with aspirations to kiss a girl. they don't see any of that. in talking to people who live with various disabilities-- i didn't just talk to people who had c.p., or who lived with hemipleejia or anything like that. i tried to talk to as many people i could, and the thing that came up again and again, the frustration of the disconnect between how people perceive you and how you know yourself to be is really, i think, one of the most isolating things to live with. and something they felt was, you know, a kind of key to where billy is in the the story. >> rose: one character says, "you're too kindhearted.

that is your trouble, cripple billy." >> that's the thing. billy is-- he is very kindhearted, but he also does pull off one of the great-- i won't say what it is-- but one of the greaterabts of manipulation and deceit in the play. i particularly don't like to in any way play billy as a victim because he's not. he's really smart. he is compassionate and kindhearted and one of the reasons i love him is he has all those things, despite how people treat him. he's been shown very little compassion, and yet he still has so much to give. but it's unfair to say he is completely innocent. >> rose: helen is played by sarah greene. and tell me about the relationship and what happens to sarah so that she changes her impression. >> helen is a wonderfully complicated character because she is on the one hand are which she first comes in, she storms on to the stage and dominates the place. everyone's-- all the men are slightly scared-- all of women

are slightly scared of her. but she is, you know, as a few of the characters are in the play, she is a chide of abuse, and she has suffered and a lot of her bravado is covering up for fear sp intense vulnerability that she doesn't want to show. and in terms of billy, i think, you know, billy's the only one who-- billy says towards the end of the play, he talks about all the boys who laughed at him in the school all the girls who cried if he even spoke to them. helen wouldn't have done either of them. he's always been in love with her, and it's the hopeless love story where she's just kind of horrible to him and -- >> there's a lovely line when he says, you know, there were many reasons to come back to ireland. but i have one reason to come back. >> he says he basically-- he says-- i mean, that's the thing billy goes to america and comes back and his-- you know, she is

the only thing he miss about the island. and i think she's the only thing that really makes the idea of a long-term life there bearable for him. >> rose: roll tape. here's a scene with billy and helen. >> are you not stepping out with anyone at the moment? >> i'm not. >> me, i've never been kissed. >> , you've never been kissed. you're a funny looky cripple boy. ( laughter ). >> it's funny, when i was in america, i tried to think about all the things i'd miss about home if i had to stay in america. would i miss the scenery, i thought it's stone walls the lanes, and the green and the sea? nope. i wouldn't miss it. would i miss the food? the peas, the peas... ( laughter ) no. i wouldn't miss that. would i mis-- >> is this speech going to go on for more long? >> >> i've never-- nearly finished

it. i. >> i would miss me auntie. i wouldn't miss boab, or all the lasses that used to cry if i even smoke in them. if inishmaan sank in the sea tomorrow and everybody drowned there isn't especially anybody i'd really miss. anybody other than you, that is, helen. >> you'd miss the cows. >> i crowe business was blown up out offal proportion. what i was trying to build up to-- >> was you trying to build up to something, cripple billy? >> rose: you and i were watching this and you almost want to do this because? >> because that's a filmed performance on a stage which is absolutely-- if i could put something into a room 10 onetime capsule and shorten it, it just

vanishes from a distance, it would be filming theater. it always-- like you're giving a performance that's for the size of a theater, and you -- >> and you're speaking to the back of the room. >> and you're speaking vocally to the back of the room and it looks i think unnatural. if i was filming that scene i would be speaking at this volume. >> rose: i thought about this, it seems to me there must be a way-- and i agree with you-- so that you could have the audio at the back of the room so projection of it would not be a little bit jarring. >> yeah, that's probably a very good idea. i'll-- we'll try that. but it is-- i've never found a solution to it. >> rose: you're projecting. >> you're projecting. >> rose: and, therefore, it lacks intimacy. >> precisely. and that's a very intimate scene. >> rose: the interesting thing about him is the dreams of hollywood. from all that he suffers, the assaults on his dignity, perhaps, you would say it, doesn't destroy his dream.

>> well, i mean, i think the film coming to inishmaan, is absolute the most exciting thing that has ever happened -- >> hollywood has arrived. >> and by any estimations it is stroabl still one of the more exciting things that happened on the island. it was a really big moment on the island's history. but i think more than a love of film, it's an escape. it's a chance to get off the island and not only join this film industry but actually be taken back to america. and that, i think, ultimately-- billy i think views america as a lot of people at that time viewed america as a place of tolerance, and so i think he thinks i may not be treated in the same way. >> rose: he doesn't want to be called "cripple billy." >> he doesn't. >> rose: and he wants to define himself and this will be a fresh start to define himself.

>> i think that's the thought. and it's-- yeah, that's one of the many tragedies in the plays is that his experience of america does not go as he wanted it to. >> rose: ben brantley, in reviewing this for the "new york times" said, "it's a story about how and why we tell stories." >> yeah. i mean, i think that's a really interesting part of the play is-- and it's really facilitated in some way by johnniy pateen. the number of storyies billy has heard about his parents and about his birth and the circumstances around it have grown to shape and define his life and really trap him. and then, you know, by telling of another story near the end of the play, he is briefly set free from that. so i think that's a really-- you know, i think it sometimes takes a reviewer to come in and see an over-arching theme in a play that you may have forgotten

after doing it for eight months. >> rose: no matter how discomforting, you will show another scene. this is where babbybobby takes him to the casting and doesn't really want to take him to the casting. >> how did you hear tell of helen traveling? >> helen told me. >> and i told helen she's get a punch if she let anyone in on the news. >> hear she's paying you in kisses for the boat trip. >> she is. it was helen who insisted on that cause. >> wouldn't you want to kiss helen? >> i get a bit scared of helen, i do. she's awful fierce. ( laughter ) boy, would you like to kiss hillen, cripple billy? >> i can't see helen ever wanting to kiss a boy like me anyway, can you, bobby? >> no. ( laughter ). >> but, so you would have took the mccormacks without payment at all? >> i would. i wouldn't mind having a look at

this filming businessinize. what harm in taking passengers along. >> would you take meaise passenger, too? >> no. >> why now? >> i have no room. >> you have plent of room. >> a cripple fellow is bad looking aboard and everyone knows. >> since one was taken and the boat sank. >> you're prejudice against cripples is all you are. >> i am not at all prejudiced against cripples. i did kiss a crippled girl one time. not only crippled but disfigured, too. i was drunk. i didn't mind. you're not spoiled for pretty girls. >> don't change the subject on me. >> big green teeth-- what subject. >> the subject of take me to the filming. >> thought we close closed thatt would you want to go to the filming for. they wouldn't upon the a crippled boy? >> you don't know what they want. >> i don't, i suppose. >> rose: when you look at this play and look at the time you've been to o broadway-- three times-- is it a caits you'll

always come to broadway or come to the stage if somebody shows you an interesting role like martin mcdonagh? >> absolutely. i've always thought a stage is somewhere i get eye learn and and i get better on stage is-- it's been something i have taken a huge amount from and i hope i keep going of coming back to it again and again. all the actors i grew up admiring and, you know, still admire are people who mix both stage and screen. so i hope i can keep managing to do that. >> rose: speak of people you admire, you also admire michael fasbender. >> i do, but not to quite the level-- i'm not making life decisions based on-- i admire his career greatly,sh. >> rose: in terms of his choice of roles. >> in terms of his choice of roles and the fact that he's just-- i think he's a fantastic actor who mixes huge commercial

movies with more sort of indy sort of stuff, but there's never a drop-off in quality, just as with james mcevoy, who i was lucky enough to work with recently and a lot of actors that i do admire. i don't think they ever just take the easy way. they're always looking to push themselves. they're always looking to do interesting, challenging material. >> rose: did your parents imbue you with this interest in thooert? >> i think so. i was taken to thoart as a kid. i think i viewed theater as part of acting i would one day want to explore. if i was going to be an actor, it is a part of it. i viewed it as intrinsic to the nature, i suppose. film will be my first love and my first kind of home. y well, but i there and it's definitely will hopefully keep coming back to theater to learn. >> rose: "kill your darlings." you play alan ginsberg.

>> i did. >> rose: it might be an exciting journey just to try to getted in his head. >> it was actually exciting to try to getted in a 17, 18-year-old ginsberg head which i felt like it was less public domain property, that age of ginsberg, than all the other-- because he wasn't famous then, and i felt-- we all felt, i think a little more license because we were playing these guys before they had become massive celebrity gluz have a film coming out called "what if?" >> yes. "what if" is a smart, sweet, romantic comedy and a very funny one. it's about-- my character wallace is kind of heartbroken and a bit lovesick, meets a girl at a party. they immediately hit it off and she he sort of fan sees her immediately, but she reveals she's got a boyfriend, and they end up just deciding to become friend while he absolutely is in denial that he's fallen head over heels in love with her.

i feel like most romantic comedies dispense with the complexities of life because it makes the story difficult whereas in this i feel we kept the complexities of those relationships because things shouldn't be easy in a romantic comedy because they rarely are in life. >> rose: here's a clip. ♪ in the night it looks so pretty ♪ >> yeah, that was supposed to be an anonymous fridge magnet. >> and here i am judging you? >> >> i can handle it. i've humiliated myself much more thoroughly. >> did you meet. >> this is my cousin. this is my roommate wallace.

>> you're wallace. >> this is the first time he's been outside in, like, a year. >> you do like pale. i assumed you were anemic or an albino. >> i am both. >> he's been hibernating. >> who is the actress. >> zoe kadan. it's very easy to play sort of having a crush on zoe. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you very much. >> rose: "crip starring mr. radcliffe at the court theater through july 20. back in a moment, stay with us. marion cotillard and james gray are here. they collaborated on a new in movie called the "the immigrant." it's the story of a polish woman who arrives at ellis island and is forced into prostitution in order to save her sister.

james gray calls it my most personal film to date. here's the trailer for "the immigrant." >> welcome to the united states of america. next. >> your name, please? >> she's my sister. is something wrong? >> she has to be deported. >> no! we never go back! >> do you speak english? >> yes. you can help me? please. >> you're a very lucky lady. do you have a place to stay? >> do you know somewhere? >> yeah, i know a place. i can get her off the island. whether she's cured or not. i know people. it will be difficult and costly, but it can be done. >> i need to work. >> i can take to you my place of business.

♪ ♪ >> you're beautiful. >> don't give up faith! don't give up the hope! the american dream is waiting for you. >> it does not matter what you

do. you've got a right to be happy. >> rose: i am pleased to have marion cotillard and james gray at this table. welcome. you say this is your most personal film. is it because it is connected to family? >> yeah, you know, it's interesting. i didn't really think consciously so much about doing a family history story. but then once i started to get into it, it's really unavoidable. and i have a real regret, actually, because my grandparents died when i was 13, and, you know, when you're 13 i was interested in the clash and take the train and seeing revivals all around new york. i didn't care about my russian grandparents who didn't speak any english. so i regret not knowing more of their history. but my father, of course, subsequently told me all this stuff and all of it wound up in

the film, all the details, including the small stuff, like not knowing how to eat a banana and biting into it like it's corn on the cob. the attitude of the immigration officials at ellis island. all this stuff was fodder for a movie and i frankly hadn't seen plane movies on the subject. there are very few. there's the open fg "god father part ii." and america, america," and that's pretty much it for ellis island. >> rose: why did you say yes? you have lot of choices these days. >> for him, first of all. ling-- i think he's one of greatest directors. and usually i'm-- well, i'm attracted to great stories. and that was a great story. and, also, that was something that i had 95 done before, this character was, you know, something that i hadn't explored. >> rose: tell me about ewe?

>> she's a strong woman. she's in a state of need when she comes to the united states. she is someone devoted to people. >> rose: mainly her sister. >> well, yes, but i think it's a fundamental aspect of her personality. because she was a nurse, and a nurse is someone who is devoted to, dedicated to human beings. health. yeah, that was a part of her personality that was really strong, the fact that she's devoted to people. and, of course, her sister in this story. >> rose: you were also inspired by pacheney. >> very much so. well, i00 to el tritico, in los

angeles, and i had seen a performance and it was an incredible night. and i just sat there after the second operetta just in tears. on the drive home i said, "it's amazing hollywood doesn't make these films like barbara stanwyck, where the woman is at the center of the melodrama, greer garrison." and she said, "why don't you do one?" and i felt like saying, "why don't you help me raise the money to make that thing. of they're not easy to do. that was the inspiration. and puccini's shamelessness about the emotion, the degree to which he never distances you. there's no irony. he's saying, "this is my heart. here it is. like it or don't like it. this is the honest emotion of of the and that was very much the governing principle of the film. >> rose: also "diary of a

country priest. of. >> yeah, you know, it's the same principle in a way. even though that film is very austere, there's a kind of-- again, a lack of irony, an obsession with the honesty of the emotions of the actors, which is know-- it's in a way-- because we live in a very ironic age, you know. and it's not typical-- by the the way, there are amazing works of art, great films made in this tradition. but i felt it was interesting to explore, especially for an actor like marion, whose face is so evocative, almost a silent film mel drama. >> rose: and casting joaquin phoenix. >> i've made 500,000 movies with the guy and i love him. >> rose: what is it you love? >> you know, when you look for actors, you kind of look for an actor who can communicate both external struggle but also internal turmoil. and joaquin phoenix-- he looks like he's at war with himself.

and that's a huge thing to ask for an actor. when he gives it to you, he's combustible. anything can happen at any time. he's, like, filled with danger. if you find an act lor like willing to deal with you, you keep casting him. >> rose: how many movies? >> four. >> rose: this is a clip in which you've just come, i think, to get off at ellis island, and when bruno takes control. here it is. >> let's go, let's go. you're a very lucky lady. >> good afternoon, mr. weiss. you just made it. >> thank you. >> all aboard! let's go! >> there's room in the front. right here. what's the matter?

>> i have my sister here. >> do not worry. she'll get the best medical care available. do you have a place to stay? >> no. do you know somewhere? >> yeah, i know a place. if you'd like, i can take you there, yes? >> yes. >> don't go. >> rose: "don't go." please don't go. don't. "i'll take you there," if you want to. >> it's funny, watching that clip-- i realize that i basically was making this film, i became kind of an dispert on ellis island, you know, and looking at this i'm starting to see small mistakes that we made. but -- >> but there's so much there to eveek. they don't-- ellis island has a persona. >> it's incredible. they have-- i mean, they have a library on the third floor of the building which is the-- you go in there and there are these

two guys, and they know ever fact ever about american hymnigration. it's the most remarkable resource. and we looked at pictures, all this stuff by a photographer named louis hynes, and their faces tell so much. we were talking about this, this afternoon, how their faces are so expressive, these people. this was a place-- really open for business as immigration center from 1900-1924, a very short period of time. and you're talking about 40 pforts american population today, has a connection there. it'>> rose: you compared, i rea, joaquin to alpacino and monti clifd. >> they wear their hearts on their sleeves. the bruting is not an artifice.

it's like you can see the anguish, and that's really important for drama. the most famous line in history, to be or not t to be. he didn't walk around and go to be-- and leave. it's about a person who is at war with himself. and that's what i think joaquin has. >> rose: did you two meet every day before starting filming? >> we had a chance of two weeks of rehearsals. and those two guys love to talk. >> rose: did you love to listen? >> oh, my god. i was mesmerized. and being part of the discussion was great. i was very lucky to be able to attend joaquin phoenix-- who is such an amazing actor-- to attend his process and to be part of it, too, with james.

and that was-- that's-- before doing a movie like that, having two weeks of rehearsal is precious. because you -- >> this is real rehearsal. this is not reading around the table. >> very little reading about the table, right. >> discussion. >> it was more about talking and discussion pause those characters they're very complex, and the relationships are a. -- >> motive. a lot of discussion of motive and to try to a kind of-- the whole title is make the subtex feel there and never address is directly. >> rose: and who does jeremy renner play? >> it's interesting, the character was rated really because in doing the research of ellis island at the library, i found out caruso had given a

concert there for the immigrants. and one of the small facts was a yugler and magin opened for him. exi thought magician, what is that all about. and all of a sudden all this information started to come out about this word in new york around 1920, sort of prevaudeville. and he plays a magician, the kinsof joaquin phoenix. where is this where eva seens jeremy renner. >> the levitation. perhaps the most miraculous the way you've witnessed. tonight, i will attempt to raise before your very eyes.

now, there are those that query the hobility, and i understand that. i heard it all before. but i have to ask those people, how is it that you found yourself here. a this very moment. in america. by moat moke lie like sws. but isn't also because you bed it could happen opinion ladies and gentlemen, i believe. >> rose: yes. >> if you believe, right? >> rose: say this is a fable. >> i guess it is. i mean, what i was trying to do was to do something very simple, so simple in a way the subtext could take on more importance,

and you have two guys, really, and a woman, it's a basic kind of triangle, and i didn't want it to be an anthro-- we wanted to make it as accurate as we could, and woo did pull it off to some sort. it was the honesty of the emotions. and that was fable-like. you said to me when you saw it, it's like a fable. >> are you doing an impression of me. >> not a very good one. >> she did one of me today. a little payback. >> well, you know, i think that the first time i read the script. , i don't exactly know how to explain, but for me it was-- they looked like kids-- trike

something pureed in of them even if some of them have more tarkness, i would say. yeah, some kid 2349 wiewdz fighting to survive, and surrounded by open petey-- beauty, but when you see the background, you can see the it's harder than you think it is. "the first person for me in a movie, the person i will give everything to is director. the director is everything. " i formed a bond with james gray that goes deeper than any other i have ever had as a director. >> this was, that was-- well, the energy he created on set and it was a very vlow-budget movie. and to do a movie with a little

time, a period movie. the way everything worked with joaquin and jeremy, i think that we are, in my opinion, we're linked-- we have something in common that is super sensitivity, and it created a very special energy on set. and the story we were telling and what james is saying about the genuine emotion was there also because of the energy between the four of us being that sensitive. >> rose: what do you think it is? >> the idea really was to create a film where there was no distance between the actor and the character. and i said to marion very quickly and early on in the

process, i said, "i don't want you ever to say "'she'." the character. i want it to be about you. at this point to reveal something. you, that we are almost naked in front of the camera. and this i think was really the kind of-- that was the kind of driving idea really behind the film, i think, for all of us. and you know, the way the business works now, when you have a chance to make a film like this, which is quite rare because the business has changed so radically in the last 20 years-- you take advantage of of it and you kind of go deep. you go deep as you can. >> rose: did your father tell you, you'd never make it as a director. >> well, my father has a lot of wisdom. you know, my father said to me, i grew up in queens, in arbchy bunker land. movie makin making and movie dis

is about as far away as you can imagine. he said you might want to check out a company called microsoft and work for them. my father's love is not movies. ping his indication they had some kind of success was i had health insurance in the movie business. he didn't say that directly but he said you might want to assume something safer. >> do you like these kind of movies, the small. >> my dream when i was a kid and wanted to be an actress was to explore. and explore the more i could and jump from a world to another. i was fascinated by actors like

sir lawrence olivier. because from one movie to the other, you could not recognize them, and they could really from a john real estate or smoorg. it'satively but every movement is different. >> it has been said-- the the two biopicks-- and that's a bad word. would be-- have you ever said that? or thought it. have you thought it? >> no, me no, no, i said it. would-- and the other is longed

arie mati. that would require a lot of makeup. yeah, two heroes of mine. >> rose: congratulations, thank you so much. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

man: it's like holy mother of comfort food.ion. kastner: throw it down. it's noodle crack. patel: you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. crowell: okay, i'm the bacon guy. man: oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. man #2: it just completely blew my mind. woman: it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. sbrocco: oh, please. i want the dessert first! [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait.