wek. >> rose: welcome to the program. we look at the event on june 4, 1989 in china. with evan osnos, orville shell, chai ling, nick kristof. join us for a conversation about the history and the implications of tianamen square. >> to be in the square during the weeks leading up to june 4 was like being at some incredible festival almost, the feeling of sort of elation as if something had lifted. the press for the first time was absolutely free. people all across china were watching what's happening. and it was an amazingly feeling of sort of sudden lack of

repression, and everybody, i think, believed that this was an inflection point. >> rose: a moment of change. >> they would never get this thing-- this jeanie back in the bottle. but, of course, that was a very naive presumption. >> rose: we conclude with jeff widener, the man who took one of the most famous pictures of all time, a young man in front of a tank. >> then suddenly, we heard a noise down the street, and it was a familiar sound of tanks. i went to the balcony, and i thought this is a nice composition air, compressed shot of the tanks, and then a man walks out kearing shopping bags waving. and i told kirk, this guy is going to screw up my composition and he said they're going to kill that guy. >> rose: tianamen square and china next. >> there's a saying around here:

you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we mark this day, the 25th anniversary of the events on june 4, 1989, in

beijing, china. tanks rolled into tianamen square to crush a student preft that had captured the attention of the world. many hundreds died. the chinese government has since tried to erase the events of that day from history. here's a report from seth doen of cbs news today from beijing. >> at dawn, china's flag was raised over tianamen square. , as it is every day, but on this anniversary, extra security forces, some with machine guns, were stationed around the square. why are you stopping me? who are you? while trying to report, we found citizens serving as plained clothes informants. i'm seth doen with cbs news. as china revealed its authoritarian side. 25 years ago, tanks rolled into beijing's tianamen square to suppress a week-long student

uprising that had spread across china. the communist government's crackdown turned bloody. it's still not known how many died. estimates range from 200 to more than 1,000. as a student here in china, do you learn about tianamen square in the history book? >> not mentioned. >> reporter: not mentioned. >> not mentioned. >> reporter: not mentioned at all. these college students who we won't name because they took a risk just to talk with us acknowledged it's difficult to find information about what the government calls "the june 4th incident." >> 25 years passed, and we still don't know what happened. i think that's-- that it-- that's not-- that's not cool, i think. >> reporter: not cool? >> yeah, that's not cool. everyone in china, we have right to know the truth. after so many years passed, and we still don't know what happened. >> rose: china is a very different place today than it was 25 years ago. it is wealthier, more powerful, and more confident on the world

stage, but the growth has come at the cost of pollution, corruption, and political repression. joining me to talk about tianamen and the past, present, and future of china, from washington, d.c., evan osnos of the "new yorker" magazine. he was their china correspondent from 2005 to 2013. he is the author "age of ambition-- chasing fortune, truth, and faith in the new china. orville shell from the asia society. he has covered china since 1970 and written more than 10 books. nick kristof is a columnist and former correspondent for the "new york times." in 1990 he shared a pulitzer prize with his wife, cheryl. xiao qiang is the editor in chief of the china digital times. his site focuses on censorship and political discourse in chinese cyberspace. and in boston, chai ling, one of the student leaders in tianamen

square in 1989 and number four on china's most wanted list. i'm pleased to have all them here for an important conversation about an important day in chinese history. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: let me go back, orville, and tell me about that day and what led up to it, and beginning, i assume, with how the student began to come and what the death had to do with it. >> it was an extraordinary episode i think in not just chinese history but any history, to be in the square during the weeks leading up to june 4 was like being at some incredible festival, almost, the feeling of sort of elation as if something had lifted. the press for the first time was absolutely free. people all across chine arp watching what's happening, and it was an amazingly-- a feeling of sort of sudden lack of

repression, and everybody, i think, believed that this was an inflection point. >> rose: a moment of change. >> they would never get this thing-- this jeanie back in the bottle. but, of course, that was a very naive assumption. >> and his death had what to do-- >> he had been pushed out of power earlier in connection with student protest, and hard liners thought he hospital cracked down hard enough on them. he was no champion of liberalization, but given what had happened to him, and unfai unfairness of that students try to mourn his death when he died. and at beijing university people put up signs, things like the wrong man died. that gradually grew into a call to honor him and calls for an end to corruption for greater economic justice, and the government complicated it by calling for a pregz, and the students protested against a

very harsh people's daily editorial. and this all snowballed in a way nobody could have imagined when it began. >> rose: where were you? >> i was there every day at beijing university, in the protests and that night i was there when the troops opened fire. >> rose: did you at some point believe it was going to end badly? >> after martial law, we became nervous that was one possible outcome. and i would say the student were overwhelm although they couldn't imagine this would end with bloodshed. there were some older folks who warned this was precisely what would happen if the party got pushed into a corner. and i guess i-- you know, it was hard to imagine, especially when the soldiers initially came in, unarmed, and relaxed, but then, you know, it-- there was that

nervousness it would unfold exactly as it ended up doing. >> rose: what did the students want? >> well, the students had slowing expansion posters and leaflets, louded speakers, a spokesperson like chai ling, and talking to hundreds of foreign journalists every day. i think the basic demands from more political freedom, freedom of expression, and democratic reform is clear and obvious. but,sh, as a mass movement, there are so many different streams of emotions and that at this rare moment it all exploded. that came out from different walks of life, and even beyond tianamen square. but if i have to put one word to

it-- don't make things too complicated -- that was a rare moment the chinese people enjoyed the sense of freedom and we want freedom. but that's also a very cruel, cruel conflict with the reality, that moment of truth-- who is ruling china and how they ruled it. >> rose: tell me-- i want to pronounce it correctly or have you help me-- you were a protege of his, a student of his? >> i was at university, yes, he was my president. >> rose: you were out of the country? >> i was out of the country. i left china in 1986, came to here, the university of notre dame, studying astrophysics. at the time, when students were in tianamen square, i was here doing my ph.d. thesis. but when i watched everyone on the square, i knew i could be

one of them if i was in china, wieb definitely one of them. so when i saw what happened on june 4, i actually went back as a result from the united states, went back to china. it is a moment that for the entire generation, for the entire country, we never thought we were living in such a decisive but also tragic moment to face ourselves. what is freedom, and what is the real truth we're living in. >> rose: and how much progress have you made towards freedom since tianamen square? >> china has changed a lot. and in many ways, people's lives are freer, but not in political freedom dimension. as you mentioned in your beginning, it's a wealthier

country. i have not been back to china since-- ever since '89. that was my last trip because of my political activities, but but everyone who has been there, of course, the high rises, stock market, the rising economy-- everything. but this, also, the price of 1989, it's closed the door to political liberation. the authorities are so afraid to revisit that question again. and the legitimacy of the regime after the massacre is entirely dependent on economic performance. and that is becoming more and more fragile. today, i'm watching china on the internet every day. the number of banned key words that you cannot search, or sometimes even type into the

chinese social media, about tianamen, it's mind-boggling. you can not type tianamen square. you cannot type june 4. until yesterday, you could not search the word "today "because if you search that, it shows up all the memorial discussions. therefore, the authorities had to ban the word "today" in the search engine. that's how sensitive this topic is 25 years after the massacre. >> rose: does the government have reason to-- are they right in believing if they don't maintain this tight political repression that their hold is so fragile that they will be overthrown and the party will lose control? >> that is their fear. >> rose: is that fear well founded? >> the fear is founded after the massacre, because after that point, there's no way to

retrieve from what they have done to the people. >> rose: evan you just wrote a book and we talked about it here on the program at the table. reflect for us how the government sees tianamen square today, and with this economic liberalization, why aren't they more confident? >> the government is acutely self-conscious about what happened in 1989. officially what, it says was that this was in its own way a tragic but necessary step on the path of china's economic rise. you'll see the government put out a statement the other day saying we have been always perfecting rule of law in our political and social institutions. they have trained young people in china today, people who have grown up in the last 25 years, to believe that had the demonstrations in tianamen square and elsewhere in the country, had they not been put down, that china's economic rise would have been impossible. that's the story. and yet, at the same time, what you see and what xiao described

today, they're not interested, they're not willing to put that argument up for an open debate. so that's why on the internet, for instance, instead of saying, look, we stand by our decisions. we stand by the political choices we made. they say we don't want to have this conversation. we don't want to revisit it. the judgment that was made after the tomorrow oil as it's described in chinese, after the turmoil of 1989, that's the judgment that stands today. therefore, it is almost entirely undiscussed in any public way in china. >> rose: chai ling joins us now. thank you for coming. >> you're more than welcome. thank you. >> rose: take us back to 1989 and what you were doing and what you were thinking and how you were able to escape. >> yes, 25 years ago, at this hour, i was with our last 5,000 students, peacefully at tianamen square. we were shocked in disbelief to discover that instead of listening to our cry out for freedom, the government sent tanks and troops to silence our

dream. and it was all sort of emotions came in. and it was just basically confront something called death, and give up everything we had ever hoped for in our lives, for ourselves, for our families, for our nation. so i told the students the stories of a group of ants on the hill, the hill caught fire. they had to go down the hill to survive, so they rolled up and became one ball, and the outside ants burned to death but the inside survived. and i told the student we were like the ants on the frontier of our nation's freedom and through our sacrifice air, new china will be born. and after i shared that, and i saw everybody's spirit lift up because everybody was depressed and sad and sorrowful and in pain. so in that moment, i turned around back to look into the darkness of the northern part of tianamen square, the forbidden

city, where the chinese government gave the order of a full massacre. and i felt this flood of warmth came out from my heart, flowed toward them, is that great wishes and love for the leaders of china, even they just declared massacre on us, and for the soldiers moving towards us through the tanks and machine guns. and we had nothing but love for them. and looking back-- and we were also, you know, looking into the darkness for all the generations, about coming up. those who never know us and doesn't know yes yet. and we wish for the best for them. so i know looking back, that is love from god to china, and china has been proved as a result of that great prayer and wish. >> rose: i appreciate your-- the strength of your own religious belief. let me just ask once again. how did you escape? >> i was put on the most wanted list, and had to escape, hide

out in china for 10 months before i was able to finally to come to freedom and was rescued by a group of really craimgous buddhist believers. it was their faith to save my life because they wanted to preserve the hope for thina. and they were so courageous. they started with a couple of people and eventually expanded into a network of 200 families. and during that time of intense terror, persecution, and every day my friends and colleagues who were put on the most wanted list would be discovered, their great prize hand out for my head. even under that kind of high proper, these people never betrayed us, never hand us in. so my last journey was to be put into a cargo boxed in a boat for four nights and five days and we were finalliablliy able to comeo hong kong and paris and

eventually america. >> rose: i will come back to you in a moment, but i want to review the decision by to do this. >> having this fear, having grown up in a time when china was chaotic -- >> lived through the cultural revolution as well. >> and earlier periods. i think that was in the back of their mieppedz, and they historically had not been shy of shedding blood. they had earlier tried to send in-- they earlier tried to use the police. that had failed. they tried to sunday in troops who were unarmed, and that had failed. and i think by the night of june 3, xiao ping wanted to shed blood and scare people. i don't think this was a matter of this is the only way to get to tianamen square. >> rose: were there strong voices in the council of

government not to shed blood? >> there were voices but not strong ones. the communist party leader at the time, reviewed -- >> the party leader. >> the party leader-- >> entitled. >> entitled, that's right. >> rose: very good point. >> he refused to implement the order and offered to resign. his aid, the same thing. another politburo member, was kind of wavering. but china wasn't ruled by the polit pro. it was ruled by the older, octegennarian hard liners, and they prevailed. >> rose: who had been there since the revolution. >> that's right. at the end of the day, it wasn't as if it was very close. therthere was some army resista, but not a lot. and there was passive resistance of the kind of chai ling described. what they give the order to open fire, people opened fire. >> rose: what was the reaction of the united states and our government and other governments around the world? >> well, it was one of enormous

shock, particularly when people saw the drama that was being played out as the armies marched down for the second time towards tianamen square. and at that point, they were using live fire. and xiao ping interestingly enough, aid a few days afterwards, this was a storm that was bound to come. and i think what he meant by that was he could sense building within this structure of a one-party state that there were forces that were going to sooner or later, rupt, and i think as nick suggests, in the leninist scheme of thing-- one-party system, discipline, orthodoxy-- there really is no other possible response except repression. otherwise, you risk overthrowing the party, exactly what happened in russia, in the soviet union -- >> and there was a sphere of russia? >> well, russia hadn't happened at that point, but there was a

deep and abiding sense that the party, if it yielded on this important question of a split within its own ranks and didn't repress those people in the street, it would lead to its downfall and i could say maybe he was right. >> i would push back at that. it seems to me, the party fit had gone in the other direction, actually, if the octogen aryans had stepped down, something would have happened more like taiwan, where you would have had the communist party have free speech have, elections that were manipulated, that it might actually win. >> except, nick, i think had that happened, i agree. but i don't think that could have happened given the fact that it wasn't simply xiao ping. he had a group of elder revolutionaries who never would have allowed that to happen. >> i agree with orville, but i want to add something.

orville mentioned the leninist party has this-- couldn't come the other way. i would even put this tragic event in the long history of chinese political history, that china never tolerated dissent. rebels were dissent opinions, are the most crushed, always killed. not only family. all relatives. that is never a tolerant-- there is never a political tolerance to the political rebellion. when the students and particularly the citizens stopped the troops into beijing from the eyes of xiao ping, that's rebellion and captain be tolerated. it has been crushed in order to rule china. that is in every china ruler's

head. it doesn't have to be a leninist party or not. >> rose: what do you think most governments would have done if in fact there were this kind of rebellion in the center of area capital? >> most governments would have used riot control equipment. they might have detained some people. there would have been free speech. there would have been a discussion about it. there might have been political repercussions. but, you know, they would not have sent in an army -- >> the same brutality. >> i've covered lot of wars, but i've never seen an army of 200,000 people move in to a capital and just mow people down like that. and, you know, indeed there were other countries that face aid very similar decision. south korea in 1987. mongolia in 1990. eastern germany in 1990. and there were know-- indonesia in 1998. and in each case tcould have gone either way-- repression or

easing. and each of those cases it went the other way. >> rose: china's the worst example of the way it went the other way. will history look back at this as the most extreme example of a government crushing its people at a time of rebellion? >> i think it's a tremendous source of humiliation for the government to have endured this moment. and it is something that i think they'll never recover from. it's a bit like germany, until there is adequate reflection and adequate revisiting of it and that's very, very hard for them to do. >> rose: chai ling. >> hi, i want to say i do agree with the panelists about the assessment of china at the time, and we did hear rumored at the time that xiao ping wanted to kill 200,000 people and buy 20 years of stability. and i do agree with the analysis that it didn't need to use tanks

and troops to clear the square, but he wanted to kill the chick tone scare the monkies. that was his rationale. and he probably only he decided to do that and he was able to use his force, influence, to convince other people to agree with it. but that is not the best for the nation. that is not what is is best for china. at the time, the reformer leader whose death enabled the beginning of the movement, he wanted china to have three reforms-- economic reform, political reform, and spirm reform. another only wanted two reforms another political and also economical. but xiao ping only wanted one. that was economic reform, and he got it. so china today has the worst form of economic dictatorship with no political reform. >> rose: let me talk to evan because he's been there recently and spent some time reporting from thereupon.

thereupon-- there. what's the conversation today about tianamen and what's the conversation today about political reform? >> you know, charlie, what's amazing, what's striking is how young people in china today, many of them do know very, very little about what happened in 1989 because it has been so systematically removed from the world of information that they have access to. many of them can go online and jump the firewall as it's known and look at foreign web sites. but there are technical steps you have to take to dothat and for some of them the obstacles are just large enough. i think what is really striking is among those who are aware of it-- i think it is worth pointing out there are young people who are aware of it. sometimes we overstate the idea that they're completely unaware of what happened 25 years ago. even among those who went through it, people who lived in bag, for instance, who were onlookers and participated in should passive way, there is a sense today in china that some of the same issues that animated those protests in 1989 are

present in the country today. for instance, corruption, which obviously so much on the mind of chinese leaders was very much an ingredient in those protests, a sense that the government is not responding to people's complaints. that was in the foreground in 1989. i think in some ways what you see is even though there is not a conversation about 1989 and there really isn't in any public way, this is a sense that china right now is facing immense political pressure internally, and they're trying to figure out how to go about it without losing the support of this new middle class. >> rose: you're nodding affirmation. >> absolutely. i think that-- you know, the truth is the chinese government has actually done a pretty good job allowing living standards to rise, education standard to rise, creating more connections with the outside world. in that respect, it's very different from a lot of other traditionally repressive countries-- the old soviet union, for example. but when you create a milt class, when you raise living standards, when you educate people, you create aspirations for political participation.

and so i think that-- if i were the chinese leaders i would be kind of nervous about what they have created. and they think increases ultimately the demand for redressing what happened on june 4 and for creating a freer, more democratic country. >> there is a paradox here, because i think the shock of this moment that we now have the 25th anniversary of, was-- played a very significant role in goading xiao ping into believing he had to do something really monumental to kickstart china back into gear. the sort of catalytic moment the whole reform process we have seen since. without 1989 i'm not sure you would have gotten such ray high

velocity, aggressive form of economic reform. >> rose: what is the political debate at the highest level in china about? is it about corruption? is it about pollution? is it about sustaining the economy? >> one fracture point is how to treat the outside world, and how to comport itself in relation to its neighbors and particularly the united states. as it gets stronger it's a temptation for china to act in a more grandiose way, both within its neighborhood, which you see in the south china sea, but also i think in regard to america. is this the really radical change we're having to confront. >> some muscularity in the-- >> i think they need a new national glue to hold the

country together and they thought nationalism could help do that. and know who of the problems vietnam and japan are suffering today is the consequences of creating that national glue. i think the fundamental debate among chinese leaders now has to do with the long-term vision and there's a reformist group that thinks the way you deal with the pressure cooker is gradually create some escape mechanisms. you allow initially village elections then township elections, county elections, maybe later provincial elections with manipulated control and candidates you approve of, and, you know, certain amount of local press freedom as a way to root out corruption. and you can control the process. and i think the alternative view sucan't yield. if you start that process you lose control. >> there is a saying-- without vision the people perish. what the chinese leaders are currently seeking is a vision, how to govern this current

china. sing xi jinping came aboard he is promoting a concept china dream, in comparison to american dream. i realize he is no different from what the communism greem dreamwas all about, about building a national dream, on the basis of sacrificing individual dream, individual right. so he cannot succeed with that method. the 1989 massacre already declared that model's bankruptcy. >> rose: what ought to be the american response to china today? what ought to be the elements of a foreign policy? >> i mean, i think we need to-- i think the pivot to asia as a way of engaging china in every way, including the maritime issues i think is important. i think we got a little too close to japan on the islands issue but i think paying a great

deal of attention to those maritime disputes is important. i think we need to continue the economic engagement. there was a push to get 100,000 americans studying in china. i think that would be so important. >> rose: how many chinese are studying in america? >> far more. >> rose: i know. >> by a huge ratio. but i think we also-- that human rights are a part of that, and that they can be part of our conversation. and right now when a nobel peace prize winner is in prison, when his wife is on house arrest, because she's his wife, a way of tormenting him, these are things that we can raise and we shipment feel intimidated that it's -- >> do you think the president is intimidated? >> i think shortly after he took office he tried to improve relations with china and it was perceived in bag as a weakness and they walked all over us and

that was addressed in 18 months and things worked out better. i think initially, being accommodating was perceived as weakness. >> rose: evan what, do you think the policy of the united states should be? and what is the driving element of china today? is it the economic progress or is it some sense of social tension between urban and rural and all those things that we know about? >> well, it can sound like a paradox, but actually, these things ar are are related in a . china has reached a point in its own story, in its own development, where it believes the economic growth that has been so pivotal over the last 30 years, that mod cell exhausted. and one of the ways it's going to pull people together is reminding them what china can be in its glorious history. and this means partly stepping outside of the world it's been in for the last 30 or 40 years. and that means a new foreign policy and i think that's one of the reasons we see the new, more

muscular, more ambitious na sense in policy in foreign affairs and see china getting into greater friction with its neighbors. i think from the unite united s' perspective there are two things we can do. one is pointing out as often as we can-- the united states doesn't seek to prevent china's rise. in the sense, if china collapsed tomorrow it would be ruinous for the global economy. it would hurt the united states and i thi we can be as clear as we possibly can be. and consistency in our values. chine ans we care about human rights. they know we also care about maintaining our security guarantees to our allies in the region. as much as we stick to those principles, i think it creates a stable foundation for the relationship. >> rose: let me close with this, orville. you have studied china, written books about china for a long time. what is it about china? >> i mean, the dilemma is that china, over the last century, has been reinventing itself in

serial form, trying to find a new ideology, a new way to be in the world. and it's still in process. so it's a little bit difficult exactly always to know what it is that is there when you think about china and how to relate to it. >> rose: do they think they have a longer view of history than we do or most everyone else? >> i think they do believe that and i think one of the things we're seeing now is the acting out, that sort of old notion of china being sovereign in a way within the asian neighborhood. >> rose: and china being strong. >> and to rejuvenate itself and to reinstall itself as central in the whole asia proposition. >> rose: should we worry about a confident, aggressive china? >> i think we should. i think there is risk of military conflict in the south china sea or east china sea. i think it's unlikely.

i don't think china or japan for example wants a conflict over the islands but i think it is possible one could arrive by accident and i think that is a good thing to worry about. >> rose: thank you, nick. thank you, all. thank you, back in a moment. stay with us. >> jeff widener is here. he is an award winning photo journalist who has worked in more than 100 countries. on june 5, 19 89, he stood on the balcony in bag and took one of the most famous photographs in the 20th century. it is the picture of a loan man facing down the tanks in tianamen square. it captured bravery and tragedy of the chinese movement in one single image that appeared on the front pages of newspaperaround the world. this day marks the 25th anniversary of that moment so i'm very pleased to have jeff widener here. welcome to the program. >> thanks for having me.

>> i think how close i came to losing that photograph. because i kind of botched the exposure on it. it taunts me to this day. i don't even have it on my wall in my apartment. >> rose: really? >> no. >> rose: because of how close you came to not having it? >> it would be like the kid in the basketball championship game know-- he's got to get that winning point. if he had missed that point and lost the game he would have been scarred for life. when i look at that i just-. >> rose: but only you would have known. >> no, i think everybody would have known. they knew i was up there and that was my job with a.p. was to get that picture. >> rose: how did that planning come about? >> well, i'd been in bag for about a week or so, and i had covered the events of june 4. that night i was hit in the face with a rock. this was a burning armored car,

and the camera saved my life. and i lifted it to my face-- boom! my head goes back, plood all over me. the top of the camera is ripped off. the lens it's rock went through the mirror, bent titanium shutter. and i started asking around me running around if anybody had a flash. i have no camera to put a flash on. i went through this really traumatic situation, got back to the a.p. office, got the film. they ran my images and then i went back to the hotel, because mark avery, who was the photo editor then, said they're killing people. don't go back out. and he was crying because one of his friends had been cicialgd chinese friend. i went back and it was one of the most difficult decision i have made of my life. as a journalist you have a very big story. but i was too scared, too sick, and too injured. i remember being back in the hotel, i ordered room service, and looking at all this footage

and fire on cnn. i thought something is not right here. i'm sitting here having room service while all of this is going on in the street. the next day i cam back to the office and when i walkedded in there was a message from a.p. in new york. and it said we don't want anyone to make any unnecessary risk but if somebody could photograph the occupy tianamen square we'd appreciate it. i got the short end of the straw on the night i went out and was injured and i was scared to death and knew what i went through and didn't want to go through it again. i realized i had to do it. i was concerned about getting into the beijing hotel. journalists were being stunned by cattle prodz, by secret police. i had to figure out a way to get in. so i hit hid my camera in my

back pocket. the i walked in the door, and the security is are on the left and there is a young american i can, shorts and sappeddals and i said hey, joe, where have you been? "i'm from a.p. you can let me in my room?" he said you're lucky. a bunch of tourists were shot in the lobby. i go to my room and. i had to be really careful. >> and documented many of the tanks going by, and occasionally hearing a little tirchgle of a bell. it'suddenly we heard a noise don the street, and it was the familiar sound tanks. i went to the pal connie and i thought this is a nice composition, and a man wawbs out carrying shopping bags and

weaving. i told kirt this guy is gog minneapolis my composition. and he said they're going to kill that guy! i'm waitin waiting and waiting d waiting, and nothing is happening. i thought this picture is too far away. i see a converter that would double the focal of myulence. i went back and took three photos. and i looked at the shutter speed and it was like a 30th of a second. i the problem was i had run out of film and asked curt to get me film. he managed to wrairchgle one roll of film from the tourist. it was 100 asa film speed. i normally shoot 800. on the automatic exposure meter,

it's actually correct, but the shutter speed was too long. "did you get it? did get it?" i don't think so. but one came out? >.>> you'll never forget that d. >> i won't. but i was so whacked out because of the concution, nothing changed. >> what do you remember being there at all, in terms of the fear, of seeing people shot. the sense of that moment in which china is exploding in front of our eyes. i knew it was one of the greatest news stories in the cent of century. i kept thinking how much i had missed that night that i was missed. i was really upset that it hurt so much. my photographing of that event

was cut way short. i miss aid lot, an incredible amount of the thins i saw on that night was ununbelievable. there was a guy rolling on the ground. friday's after i got hit in the face, the back of the armored car opens up, and a soldier jumps out to surrender. and i can still remember how his clothes were pressed. the mob moved in on him and started beating him with pipes. and there was another soldier on the ground and i tried to photograph him and somebody grabbed my cameras and wripg it apart, and i lift mied passport up and that was either going to fet me killed or saved. >> what happened to kirt martzen. >> he was supposed to go to the a.p. office, but he got lost in

the sidestreets. he went to the u.s. embassy and gave them the film and said it is very important and needs to get to the associated press office. fortunately, the agency passed it on to a.p. but curt riskinged his life to get that film. if not for kirk, i would have never had that photo on the wire. i owe him a lot. >> did anybody else. >> there was charlie cole, stewart franklin, and iewrg andr sonn. he found a ground-level image that recently showed up. a different angle that nobody else had. >> rose: was if an interest, angle? >> it was interesting in the sense you can sort of see what was happening on the ground self with the angle is it how-- it

wasn't as sharp or close as the other photos put i think historically it was an important image, what did fines people-- the other at a i got an e-mail from something and could you give this picture to him to be an inspiration. i get this a lot from people, and i think sml people lock at this as a first lady saent. it seems to grow in starch use as the years if pie. i'd like to think it hasn't done that much to change my life but i would be lying. it really has.

i guess i was sort of a charlie brown in school. i was the guy that always dropped the ball, if hool, in my senior year, and i had something to prove. that was the thing. i wanted attention. i also uponned to be in the spotlight, always. it's been a love-hate relationship with this guy. he's part of my life notice, but, also, i've done other work and i'd like to be recognized for that as well. but that always takes center stage. >> rose: who is he? >> that's a good question, and we all want to know. the amazing thing about it-- and it is frankly shocking-- after a quarter of a century no one has been able to identify him, nobody knows his family, i'm interested to know who is the driver in that tank. why did that guy stop?

why did he not run him over. this is another big mystery. i mean, where are these guys in the tank. why can't they identify them. >> rose: do you assume he's seen the photograph. >> i don't. i really don't know. we don't if there they're in prison. we no, i don't know if they're dead. it's like they've been replaced. i think they shot themselves in the foot by making this guy a martyr. i talked to a lady in las vegas, and she was a tour guide, and she spoke verdict english. she said a lot of people in this china know. this picture. >> rose: because he would have told something what happened and they would say are you aware of

a photograph, because i remember the last hat. they turn it's really strange. is it is this was taken i believe a few tase before the crackdown and lu and i had a very competitive thing. i would get up at 6:00 in the morning, and lieu was would. >> rose: how old were you at that time? >> rose: i believe i was 33. tell me about this one. >> that's the goddess of democracy. i watched them build this thing and i remember looking on chinese tv and there was a black and white tv footage that looked

like an armored car bulldozing it over. i remember the happiness of all the protesters, and to see that, it was so symbolic of my mind what was going on. >> rose: this? that was on may 3 and that was a pretty hairy situation. i held the camera over my head. and i was one of the lucky photographers-- some of the crowds were taking cameras and smashing them on the gownd. these guys warned me not to take pictures and i stopped because i was really concerned. that picture has gotten a rot of play in the media. >> rose: yes? >> things were getting a little heated up and they would have event. some people would sing or dance. children would perform. it was kind of like a carnival atmosphere. some of the soldiers were given gifts but you can feel the

tension starting to beld. and we knew it wasn't going to last forever. >> it's an amazing picture. just look at her expression. >> yeah. >> rose: this one? troops coming in. >> that was one of the emangs taken from the ball donnie perfect the tank picture. i was photographing the different fntz. look at these guys. they're cocked and ready to go and they were shooting. you never know when they are going to fire. i'm literally leaning over this balcony. i'm a prime target, so. well, that was a-- that was near the great hall of the people. and nothing much was really happening until this old chinese man came up to me and he was leaving, and he opens up a heavy coat, and underneath was a big hatchet with blood dripping. and i figured, okay, the tempo is changing. and i started to get a little

nervous and came around to the sidesiden and then i heard a noe and an armored car came ripping so fast. my reporter dropped his bicycle. and eventually i-- i photographed that and then i was running out of film. and that's going back to what i said earlier because i did not have enough battery power in the blaive, it actually saved my life. it's the moment i picked it up to my face, the split second, had it been here i wouldn't be be talking to pu. would have cracked my skull open like a watermelon. that's it. right after this. that's when i got nailed. that was the quickest poeto i had ever taken at the time.

my nevers were hoat, i hadap 18 million meter pinned, iff if i d thank you very much. got on my bike and back spot office. this is almost comical because you have a whole burned out bus, the whole city is a disaster -- okay it was right after the crackdown. nobody i took the city bus and took the bus fact pa and forth >> rose: once you knew this film was so iconic, do you live

the rest of your life thinking in of go, so sweet, i'm so proud, that i was right there at the moment and you're in search of that moment. moment again. >> i feel privileged and lucky pd and sometimes i like to see, the i can't believe it. it's elect will be felt's', and i see the attention i've had and it's so overwhelming and i feel so luck leand fortunate this had happened. in the beginning, it was kind of an annoyance, but now i've just accepted that it's something great that's happened in my life. >> rose: thank you, and congratulations. to have you here for us is very

important. >> thank you. >> rose: so thank you. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

. this is "nightly business report" with tyler mathisen and susie gharib. fizzle or the economy growing again? not at the pace that experts had been hoping for and that could have an impact on your money. data discrepancies, why did more than 2 million people that affordable care act be under risk of losing it. >> and popping up in the desert, changing the way we use fuel. good evening, everyone, and welcome. it was another record close for the s&p 500, the fourth one in the past five sessions and the 16th of the year so far. and all