captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions >> ifill: an internal probe of the veterans health care system has found more than 50,000 patients routinely relegated to long waiting lists for care, throughout the country we debate the depth of the problem and the proposed solutions. good evening, i'm gwen ifill. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff. also ahead this monday, in pakistan, dozens are killed and hopes for peace talks are dashed after the taliban attacks a major airport. >> ifill: plus, the political seesaw over education standards known as common core, as it is playing out in one key state: louisiana.

>> originally a majority of states signed on to common core but earlier this year indiana was the first to back out and now as opposition grows here in louisiana some state lawmakers have pushed to do the same. >> ifill: those are just some of the stories we're covering on tonight's pbs newshour. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> i've been around long enough to recognize the people who are out there owning it. the ones getting involved, staying engaged. they are not afraid to question the path they're on. because the one question they never want to ask is, "how did i end up here?" i started schwab with those people. people who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives. >> when i was pregnant, i got more advice than i knew what to do with. what i needed was information i could trust, on how to take care of me and my baby.

united healthcare has a simple program that helps moms stay on track with their doctors and get care and guidance they can use before and after the baby is born. simple is what i need right now. >> that's health in numbers, united healthcare. >> supported by the john d. and catherine t. macarthur foundation. committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. more information at macfound.org >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and... >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

>> woodruff: shelling ripped into the eastern ukrainian city of slaviansk for a second day, in fighting between government forces and pro-russian rebels. mortar fire left a trail of destruction throughout the city, damaging several buildings. it also left many people pleading for a peaceful resolution. >> this will never end. they will end the shooting only when they wipe us from the face of the planet, when nothing remains here but a flat space. only then the war will be finished. >> woodruff: just yesterday, newly installed president petro poroshenko announced the start of negotiations involving his government, russia and european security monitors. >> ifill: in iraq, a double bombing tore through kurdish political offices, in a string of attacks that killed at least 40 people. it came a day after similar bombings on sunday. today's took place in the town of tuz khormato, about 130 miles north of baghdad.

local officials said a suicide bomber drove a truck filled with explosives to a checkpoint. a second truck blew up as people ran to the scene. >> woodruff: in syria, president bashar al-assad granted a wide-ranging amnesty today. he reduced jail terms for many crimes and canceled some altogether, but it was unclear just how many prisoners would be freed. assad has issued several amnesties since the uprising against him began in 2011. today's announcement came less than a week after his re- election. >> ifill: police in brazil fought today with subway workers who walked off the job, just as a flood of tourists begin arriving for the world cup. it was the latest sign of trouble in the run-up to the most popular sporting event on the planet. dan rivers of independent television news filed this report. >> as brazil prepares to welcome the world three days before kick off, this was the scene in sao paulo.

riot police fired tear gas at striking metro workers whose walkout has brought brazil's largest city to a standstill at the worst possible time. but there aren't just problems here. in rio, the smoldering threat of gang violence is just one challenge. we found this burning car on the main road from the airport in one of the city's toughest neighborhoods. it was set ablaze by feuding dealers. the army gave us exclusive access to the sprawling slum known as marre. flack jackets are advisable here. today soldiers were shot at by gang members in this area. 2,400 troops are deployed here to quell gang violence. fear and football on streets few outsiders would dare to walk along. but it's not just gang violence that's threatening to disrupt the world cup. there's been months of protest and unrest at the amount of money being spent on the event. what should be a sporting

celebration, has become deeply controversial. some are preparing to party. but is this country really ready for the giants of the football world and half a million fans. they certainly love the beautiful game like nowhere else. but can they do it justice as hosts? >> ifill: ready or not, the competition begins thursday, when brazil plays croatia in the opening match. >> ifill: on wall street today, the dow jones industrial average gained more than 18 points to close at 16,943, another new record. the nasdaq rose more than 14 points to close at 4,336. and the s-and-p 500 added the better part of two points to finish at 1,951, also a record. >> woodruff: still to come on the newshour: new details reveal the scope of the problems plaguing the veterans administration; the taliban strikes a major airport in pakistan; a fight in louisiana over education standards; president obama's push to ease the burden of student loans;

and from "breaking bad" to l.b.j. we talk with now tony award winner, bryan cranston. >> the white house condemned a deadly attack overnight by the pakistani tab ban at their country's busiest airport, the report is the groups assault and fighting with government forces left dozens dead. >> just before midnight, clouds of smoke rose above the international airport. and there was gunfire too. it was clear that something had gone terribly wrong in karachi. fiery scenes were captured by the country's tireless news channels. heavily harmed insurgents from the pakistan taliban had stormed the airport. according to their spokesman,

they wanted to hijack a plane, and seek revenge for the death of their leader in a drone strike. it was a well planned attack. the militants dressed as airport security, evading checkpoints on the perimeter. then fought their way into terminal one. officials said they approached a number of aircraft as well. "it's a cowardly act by the terrorists," said this police chief. karachi hosts pakistan's biggest and busiest airport. 43,000 people pass through the main passenger hub everyday. yet the militants targeted a different part of the facility. they infiltrated via a side entrance here. then a van dropped them off terminal one. it's now used for cargo and v.i.p.'s. as the gun battle raged, the authorities evacuated the airport and canceled incoming flights. but that wasn't all. troops had to get passengers off a number of aircraft that were sitting on the tarmac. saim rivi was one of them.

he used twitter to express himself, cursing, then adding: "they fire rocket launchers, may god protect the country and passengers on board as well as on the floor." a few minutes later, he tweeted, "we're going to be off loaded soon, commandos are on the plane. long live the pakistan army." the battle for jinnah international was over by sunrise. military officials said they'd killed the insurgents, ten in all, another 16 had also lost their lives. a long convoy took their bodies away. local residents looked on in alarm. "the firing was so intense, i thought war had broken out between india and pakistan," said this man. the authorities were quick to congratulate themselves. captured weapons were displayed for all to see, including several suicide vests, packed with explosives. "we did a tremendous job," said this regional cabinet minister.

but the attack highlights the fragile sense of security here. the sprawling city of karachi has long been used by militants as a place to hide and organize. and a recent attempt by the government to negotiate with them has failed. officials said the airport would soon reopen. but few will feel completely secure. pakistan faces a brazen foe prepared to fight to the death. >> woodruff: the official death told climbed to 29 killed including the ten attackers. for more on the siege and how it fits into the larger picture in pakistan, we turn to two who studied that country for a long time. christine fair, assistant professor at georgetown university. her latest book, "fighting to the end: the pakistan army's way of war." and shuja nawaz is director of the southeast asia center at the

atlantic council and his latest book is "crossed swords: pakistan, its army, and the wars within." and we welcome you both back to the program. shuja nawaz, to you, first, what does this attack say about the strength of the taliban in that country? >> i think they have the government on the back foot. they have the advantage that they can pick any target and it can be a soft or hard target, and this certainly was a spectacular target. we don't know if they actually planned to go to the terminal where they ended up or whether it was a mistake on their part or whether it was the strength of the second burst that they attacked which turned them to the right instead of theto the left. this could have been much worse had they ended up in the international terminal where there were planes loaded with passengers. >> woodruff: christine fair, how do you read this? what does it say about the taliban? >> i think it really says pakistan as a country has simply failed to understand this problem strategically and to deal with it. for years, we have been having

these discussions on your show and pakistan's problem is as it has been, it wants part of these militants to be retained as strategic assets that they can deploy to kill people in afghanistan, usually our afghan and other allies as well as indians. the problem is that the very organizations that the i.s.i. have spawned to do its bidding -- >> woodruff: i.s.i. being -- the intelligence agency of pakistan, is the elements of those groups have formed the pakistan taliban. what i find interesting about the immediate discourse in pakistan is they don't want to talk about this. they want to talk about the militants being foreigners or indians and they're trying to everything take to avoid a real discussion in pakistan about this being a blowup of pakistan's own policy. >> woodruff: but you were telling us this afternoon is this wasn't an attack this wasn't clearly well executed because they ended up all

killed. how well organized did they seem? shuja nawaz, you said they didn't get to the destination they were headed for. what does it say about them? >> they weren't extremely well prepared. the equipment they had -- there were reports they were also carrying injections to assist cowaglation of the blood if they were wounded. three were hind, one past the deadline the army said was free, and afterward were discovered so fighting continued beyond the midday deadline. so they were well equipped. this is not first. this is major the second attack in karachi they launched successfully. the attack in 2011 was also a successful attack. the government can't take this lightly. i agree with christine that the need to have a terror strategy

and -- >> woodruff: the government. -- the government to stop looking at good and bad taliban. there are networks, al quaida as well as other taliban that are active and karachi have 5 million, so it provides a petri dish for terrorism. >> woodruff: for americans trying to follow this, there are more groups than people can keep track of. when it comes to the essential pakistan taliban and the government, how do you see them as they face one another, which one has the upper hand right now? >> i kind of think of these groups as a kaleidoscope in different flux. give it a twist, you get one picture, give it another twist, you get another. the pakistan are different than the afghan taliban.

the pakistan taliban is really a misnomer. it doesn't have the command and control. it's current punitive leader is actually absconding in afghanistan. he hasn't really been heard from in quite some time, so it doesn't have this coherns. part of the pakistan taliban are very much dead dieted overturning the state. some can be turned to fight against us and our allies in afghanistan, and this is the problem with the pakistan government. there is the strategy of the civilian by al-sharif. he is scared to death of these groups and they can kill him whenever they want and he knows. this another problem, some of the parties that vote for him have sympathies, so he's constrained. the army has its own strategy which is to flip them and send them to afghanistan, big difference between what the government wants to do. >> woodruff: several different threads to follow. but shuja nawaz, that rehines

minds us what the president was doing is trying to negotiate with the taliban. where does that stand? >> they launched a new internal national security policy this year and after that launched talks with the taliban that sputtered on and off. there isn't a very clear definition of the aim for those talks. they're also focused on the federally administered tribal area which borders afghanistan where, as i mentioned earlier, karachi remains a hot bed of violence and pin jab ends up as a hot bed of violence. they have groups inside and outside the country. they need a much clearer definition of what they're aiming for in these talks if they're going to succeed. i don't think they can succeed. there's also a division between the military and civilians. is military remained mum on the talks and exercised a veto of

sorts. >> woodruff: to pick up on that, christine, you were talking about the split between the military and the civilians. >> to, from my point of view, i have been more than a critic of these talks. what's interesting is they always have the same playbook. the militants always come out on top. pakistan civilian leaders -- the timing is coincidenting that it overlapped with the afghanistan elections. that tells you more about what the pakistan army wanted than anything else because the pakistan army's idea of negotiating is kill indians, afghans and americans. the civilians are willing to make concessions but the problem is the taliban have been clear that they don't want to negotiate within the frame of pakistan's constitution and that puts sharif in a bind.

pactionys for better or worse, they're committed to the talks being within the constitution. so there's a lot of different in opinions about what should be the best way forward dealing with them. we'll leave there and thank you both. christine fair and shuja nawaz. thank you. thank you. >> ifill: the veterans affairs department today released a new audit documenting widespread delayed patient care. it's based on a nationwide review of 731 of it's hospitals and outpatient clinics. according to the internal report, 57,000 veterans have been waiting 90 days or more for their first medical appointment. 64,000 others appear to have fallen through the cracks, after enrolling with the agency and requesting medical care. and in another major finding, thirteen percent of schedulers said their supervisors had asked them to falsify appointment

schedules to make the wait times appear shorter. the audit also found that a 14 day target for scheduling appointments was not attainable, and encouraged schedulers to joining me to discuss the report are: dr. sam foote, whose complaints about wait times and bookkeeping in phoenix led to an investigation in that area's v.a. system. he was a v.a. doctor for 24 years. and ralph ibson, national policy director of the wounded warrior project, which provides services to veterans. he previously served as the v.a.'s deputy assistant general counsel. dr. foote, how dire is this? how widespread? are you surprised at what you saw in this report? >> i think i was surprised so many great individuals game forward, gs4s through 6s being interyiewd viewed by gs14s and 15s. at least one or more employee

had guts enough to say yes they were gaming the system on desired dates on return patients and 70% of systems had one or more braves employees that said they were finding ways around the electronic waiting list. >> ifill: are you surprised? not surprised it was happening but pleasantly surprised that many people spoke up in that situation. >> ifill: professor? was surprise bid the gravity and scope of the problems and agree with dr. foote that it took courage for these men and women to come forward and share those findings. >> ifill: is this one of these things that happens that everyone knew it was happening? that everyone understood there was a problem but it hadn't happened? that no one had just said anything about it? covered it up? >> i think we have been well aware there's been a misalignment between patient need for care and the available staffing to provide that care.

again, i don't think we realized how widespread i have to nor the extent to which the system was being gamed. >> ifill: i want to talk to you about the numbers because they're amazing. 64,000 people were enrolled in the program but not seen, not served over the last decade, in addition to the numbers we were talking about before, and yet, a lot of these veterans actually worse, 96%. was it just that the 4% was so egregious? >> no. we were doing pretty well until about 2010 and then the demand just ramped up and rather than own up to the problem, the v.a. decided to cover it because there's no incentive for washington to get good numbers. if phoenix turns in good numbers and susan bowers is happy as division 18 director and everybody gets their bonuses and she turns in good numbers to washington when they ask, everybody says everything is great. so never was an incentive.

it was cheaper, easier and quick tore fix the numbers than the problem. >> ifill: when you firsted raise these problems, dr. foote, how was it received? >> well, you know, i think the san diego guys when it came out were shocked and appalled but they basically did nothing and from my standpoint the v.a. covered it up. i'm sing of hearing how phoenix was confused handling the waiting list, clerks were confused about the the desire dates, confused about how to make appointments. one of the things that the study addressed is people were not confused. they were being pressured to falsify dateta. they didn't have provider slots to put them in and didn't have schedules to do it in timely tags. >> ifill: how much of this was workload? >> i think workload is a piece of it and as dr. foote suggests it's a culture that discourages candor and even in some cases encouraged ethical lapses. >> ifill: how about physician

shortages? >> yes, i would agree. many of these facilities have more patients needing care than they have staff to take care of those patients. >> ifill: why? we have both an aging veteran population and a compelling need on the part of veterans returning from war in large numbers with multiple medical problems and a system that just wasn't equipped at all facilities to handle that. >> ifill: let's talk about the system, dr. foote. how much of this is dated technology? >> the computer is not the problem. vista works quite well if you're trying to do it honestly, but it was never designed to try to prevent people who were going to do things incorrectly to do it. as far as the medical thing, the vietnam veterans draw the medical side of the house as babbaby boomers and returning vs are putting a huge strain on

mental health. in phoenix only about half are primary care physicians and maybe half internests and there's a short supply of primary care physicians and i think this is a nationwide problem that will only get worse but the v.a. is feeling it first. >> ifill: part of the problem apparent will is one of the fixes the last time was to put in the 14-day scheduling, that someone would see a doctor within 14 days, and instead turned into a reverse incentive for people to make up scheduling times. how do you know any fix right now won't result in the same kind of problem? >> i think we have a long way to go and i think, certainly, certainly the central office understands the gravity of the problem. i don't think these are easy solutions and, as dr. foote indicates, we have shortages of primary care physicians and

shortages of psychiatrists across the country. so this is going to take time and we need to keep at it. >> ifill: i want to ask you about the solutions, the v.a. suggesting among them creating a patient satisfaction matrix, changing, scheduling and access, putting in place a hiring freeze to get some off the people who have been doing these things wrong out of the office. first, with you, do these sounds like the kinds of solutions which can work? >> i think there are steps in the right direction. i don't want to suggest these are a panacea. again, what's important is leadership and changing that culture. again, that doesn't -- you know, building trust in the employees to have the courage as dr. foote indicated to come forward and say we are so short-staffed. >> ifill: dr. sam foote, what do you think about the solutions the v.a. put out today? >> the fundamental problem is a

mismatch between demand and supply and the v.a. is going to need to turn to the private sector primarily for urgent and emergent care and hospitalizations. v.a. does a great job of chronic care on scheduled appoints, things like diabetes, high blood pressure, getting your medications, but they fall down terribly especially out west and in sparsely populated areas where there isn't any appropriate hospital let alone a v.a. one. i would definitely favor something like a medicare card that's run like medicare and not reinvent the wheel for some to have the patients that live far away and don't use the v.a. fee basis system for a non-v.a. care system. that takes months to get approval from the center and maybe 6, 12, 18 months for austin to pay it. you need something where they can bill the veticare immediately because unless you

have a senator on one arm and an investigational tv crew on the other, they're not going to pay that bill when you go into the hospital for emergent care that you need. >> ifill: some of that is legislation making its way through congress as well. dr. sam foote and ralph ibson, policy director of the wounded warrior project, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> ifill: educators and lawmakers across the nation are engaged in escalating disputes over a set of education standards known as the "common core." the rules once enjoyed widespread bipartisan support, but that is eroding. just last week, oklahoma governor mary fallin signed a bill to repeal and replace them. that followed a similar move by south carolina governor nikki haley. now, a third republican governor, louisiana's bobby jindal, is heading in the same direction.

we have a report from louisiana public broadcasting's shauna sanford. it's part of a collaboration with our "american graduate team," a public media initiative funded by the corporation for public broadcasting. >> reporter: 17-year-old christian myers in louisiana looks like a typical high school student but his english classroom is considerably different than most. it's his family's kitchen table. christian is home-schooled and had been studying nathaniel hawthorn's classic novel "the scarl elt letter" with his teacher and mother beth. when she looks at her child, what bothers her? >> reporter: beth is a former english and literature teacher and last year they both decided home-schooling was the best way to get him ready for college. >> i never thought about home-schooling before, in fact i had a negative view of it as a

teacher because a lot of times the kids who came into my classroom who had been home-schooled were generally two to three years behind. >> meyers said she changed her mind after louisiana along with the rest of the country adopted and began implementing the common core state standards in 2010. common core was designed by state leaders and school superintendents to ensure children in participating states met the same math and english benchmarks from kindergarten through high school. advocates say they are more rigorous than previous standards and will ensure both parents and students of the quality of public schools. but opponents like meyers aren't convinced, especially, she says, after she saw what her son was studying in his common core approved american literature textbook as part of the new curriculum. >> the first chapter was bouncing all over the place. ben franklin got two paragraphs with a couple of pages of, then

he was bounced into pages of dan rather interviewing people. didn't seem to be foundational, philosophical material that i feel is critical wean they go to college. >> reporter: beth myers since joined a chorus of voices opposed to common core in louisiana and has heard about many other parents who are thinking about or actually pulling their children out of public school because of it. >> thanks to the unprecedented collaboration among states, young people -- >> reporter: but just a few years ago, the push to create a set of k-12 educational standards enjoyed bipartisan support. governors across the country got behind it including louisiana's bobby jindal, a republican. >> let's reach higher. let's invest in our teachers -- >> reporter: some business groups and large employers in the state including exxonmobil came out in favor of common core, too, saying louisiana need add better-educated workforce. >> in louisiana, we still rank

48th amongst high school graduates or high school achievement. so, to me, that's struggling. >> reporter: executive director of the black alliance for educational options in louisiana, eric lewis, agrees. lewis, who is also a parent of three, believes common core raises the bar for public schools and will make louisiana students more competitive with their counterparts across the country. thus far, more than 40 states have adopted the common core. >> we've got to make sure our children are able to to be productive citizens but that they're also prepared to thrive in a global world in the years to come. >> reporter: but lewis and other supporters are having to fight to keep common core in louisiana schools. originally, a majority of states signed on to common core but earlier this year, indiana was the first to back out and, now, as opposition grows in louisiana, some state lawmakers have pushed to do the same. >> any object?

>> reporter: this year whatever bills were appealed introduced it in the legislature. parents and educators against common core supported the move. this mother began home schooling her two young sons last year after learning more about the standards. >> the main big problem i am finding and i believe is there's no more local control. >> reporter: even though the federal government didn't develop common core, the education department did provide states financial incentives to adopt the standards and is funding the creation of the assessment tests. those tests will measure, in part, how well students are meeting those standards and that worries dutch. >> standards always drive curriculum, i don't care what they say. as a teacher you know that standards drive curriculum. >> reporter: the pushback against common core has been so strong in st. tammany parish where dutch lives that the school voted last year on a

resolution urging the state to drop the standards all together. >> the st. tammany parish school board opposed the common core state standards since the idea was first introduced -- >> reporter: despite that resolution and a last-minute apparent change of heart by governor jindal, none of the bills passed. in an op-ed published in u.s.a. today, jindal explained his new thoughts about common core. centralized planning didn't work in russia, it's not working with our healthcare system, and it won't work in education. and, he said, if the feds dictate the standards of measure, the local curricula will have no choice but to follow. >> we want the governor to know that we as parents are in support of common core -- >> reporter: the governor's about-face didn't fit with everyone including yolanda braxton, the mother of three public school students led this group of parents and educators to louisiana's state capitol. >> with common core, it begins

to hold people accountable, not just one person, but everybody is held accountable to doing what needs to be done for the kids. and accountability is important. >> reporter: demand tasked in many ways with implementing common core in louisiana is state superintendent john white. he announced he delayed by two years the date when students, teachers and schools will be judged. saying it gives district more time to prepare. even so, he strongly supports common core and believes backing out would be a big mistake. >> imagine our state said to the rest of the country, we don't think our kids are capable of being educated to the standard as high as california's or new york's or anywhere else in between. what would it say to companies thinking about doing business here, employees thinking about moving here and say to our families here about the jobs of companies operating in louisiana. >> reporter: at the myers'

homes in denim springs, both mother and son are happy with home-schooling. christian, who struggles with a.d.h.d. says he and his mom figured out a pace that works for both of them. eventually christian wants to be a nurse anesthetist, but for now his focus is on finishing high school which he should be able to do next year. >> woodruff: you can find more on the common core standards, the political battles and effects on teaching and learning on our website. click on the education tab. >> ifill: student debt in america has more than tripled in just the past decade, and experts say too much debt can put a crimp on graduates' futures. it's an issue that democrats, particularly the president, have targeted for new remedies. it was the focus of his latest executive action today.

>> ifill: it's the season for "pomp and circumstance." triumphant graduations, cap tossing. and a reminder that although college may be over, the bills are just now coming due. the average student who graduated last year had nearly $30,000 dollars in student loan debt. today, in the white house east room, president obama signed an executive order that would allow borrowers who took out federal loans prior to 2007 to tie their repayments to their incomes. >> let's be honest families at the top, they can easily save more than enough money to pay for school out of pocket. families at the bottom face a lot of obstacles but they can turn to programs designed to help handle costs, but you've got a lot of middle class families who can't build up enough savings, don't qualify for support, feel like nobody is looking out for them. >> ifill: the program would expand on 2010 law that capped

federal loan repayments at 10 percent of their monthly income, while allowing low-income borrowers to have their loans forgiven after 20 or 25 years of on-time payments. the white house says up to five million former students would benefit, providing a boost to the overall economy. he also cast his plan in political terms, challenging republicans to support him. >> if you're a big oil company they'll go to bat for you, if you're a student, tough luck. >> ifill: americans are now carrying student loan debt of over $1 trillion, $125 billion of it added just in the first three months of this year. >> ifill: some republicans criticized the president's plan. senator lamar alexander of tennessee told the wall street journal: so what, if anything, could this approach do to help ease the growing problem of student loan debt. for that, we turn to deanne

loonin, who leads the student borrower program at the national consumer law center. and richard vedder, professor of economics at ohio university and director of the center for college affordability and productivity. professor, today opinions talking to a recent college graduate who says she owes $100,000 in school loans and just graduated last year. how deep and wide is this problem? >> well, that's a little atypical for an undergraduate to graduate with $100,000 in debt, but it is a significant problem when you have 40 million americans having debt to the government, and this debt now is greater than the debt on car loans, on credit cards, home equity loans. this is the largest form of debt in the united states except for home mortgages. so it's become a widespread issue, and it's not surprising that it's surfacing as a

political issue in this election year. >> ifill: deanne loonin, is what the president's proposing shifting the burden from the student to the taxpayer? >> no, i wouldn't look at it that way. i think it's actually aer are good investment in students so that students are more likely to succeed, and when students after college are more likely to succeed, that benefits taxpayers, benefits society, benefits everyone. >> but you heard what senator alexander said about the cost and the white house said today we're still doing rulemaking and we don't know the costs yet. but given what they've done so far, is there a way to put a price tag on something like this? >> there may be some additional short-term cost and i think we want to hear more about that. but again we need to look at the cost issue in a more comprehensive way. if the borrowers are more able to handle the debt burdens and

likely to succeed, that's an increment in students and student borrowers, and instead of money going to the private services to collect them from borrowers if they're so distressed they can't afford their basements. >> ifill: how much a bite would this approach take out of the problem, professor? >> well, i think this is not dealing with the real root cause of the problem. the the real root cause of the problem, the reason there's so much student debt, over $1 trillion to begin with, is tuition fees and college costs in general have been rising almost exponentially and at an ever faster rate of increase in the last several decades. this is dealing with -- is not dealing with the problem in a fundamental sense. it's a panacea that was addressing the short-run problems of people who are distressed. it's not dealing with the

long-term problem of how do we get out of this mess which is still growing and will continue to grow and this does nothing to stop that. >> ifill: deanne loonin, what about that? if the costs keep going up, what's the point in just forgiving loans? >> absolutely right, it's not the entire solution, it's a piece of the puzzle, but that doesn't mean we should try to put the piece of the puzzle in. borrowers are suffering now. students are having trouble with the debt to income ratios, we need relief to borrowers and the president is taking steps to do that but there is certainly more to be done including accountability from the schools themselves to keep costs down. >> ifill: les let's talk long-tm solutions, richard vedder, what do you suggest? >> i would agree with the last comment deana made is maybe it's time for colleges to have skin in the game so when they have

high default rates among the graduates, for example, the colleges themselves should help pick up some of the costs. frankly, i think we're having a problem where in some ways we're not underinvesting in higher education but overinvested. we have lots of students graduating from college today that are underemployed, taking jobs paying relatively low wages, and we have a serious problem there. none of this is dealing with any of that. so i have some concerns we are dealing with the symptoms but not the real problem or disease and we need to address that. part of the problem is the student loan program itself which enables colleges to raise tuition fees and almost invites them to raise tuition fees, creating an academic arms race which i think has become very costly, very inefficient and

very harmful, particularly to lower-income people. >> well, deanna, we were just talking to the veterans affairs about reversing incentives. i wonder if that's what's happening here, you keep saying we'll forgive your loans you won't have to pay but a percentage of to repay them and then you borrow more and more. is that a problem? >> we work with borrowers here in massachusetts and we don't see that as a problem. it may be a problem in some ways but, for the most part, these are people who are trying to better their lives and their family's lives and we want to make sure there is access to that opportunity for as many people as possible. yes, there's responsibility on the part of the borrowers but basically all of the risk is falling on the borrowers, so the idea is more risk sharing. let's get the institutions more account b, let's get the private contractors that are profiting from the system more

accountable, and look at the costs in that way more holistically. and if you look at it as an investment in our future, then i think it's a very good investment. >> ifill: so you don't think investment as professor vedder is suggesting is misplaced? >> no, i don't. i do think, again, that there's a lot of schools that have -- there's not been enough oversight, they don't have good alca measures, they have too many students defaulting on their loans. so let's make sure the schools are accountable and if they have other standards where we want to make sure their students are likely to succeed, there are ways to deal with that problem, but we don't want to have that impede opportunity for the most vulnerable borrowers and frankly for borrowers in general. >> thank you both very much. .

>> woodruff: finally tonight, a tony award-winning portrayal of president lyndon b. johnson. last night, actor bryan cranston took the prize for leading actor in a play. the drama also won for best play. earlier this spring, jeffrey brown caught up with cranston as he was getting wide acclaim for his broadway debut. here's a second look. is is the most important erection of your lifetime and the choices couldn't be clearer! >> lyndon b. johnson, ambitious, impatient, tortured and troubled in a million different ways, while captured by actor bryan cranston. >> him and the rest of his harvard blue bloods would look down their nose at me like i was some kind of country bumpkin! >> in three hours, you see him go through a myriad of emotions. it's rare to have a character of that scope. i'm grateful for it.

>> this is not about the constitution! this is about those who got more wanting to hang on to what they got! >> the play called "all the way" opened on broadway in march written by robert shanken, it's a look back at 1964, president johnson's first year in office after the assassination of john f. kennedy, a tumultuous time for the presidency and the entire nation. >> we have people in this country living in unbelievable poverty! i know! i grew up like that in the hill country. >> i saw you last night and i saw this character, you know, neck out, shoulders up -- >> that was my version of l.b.j. i mean, it really is a version of him because you don't want to try to take on the character specifically in the sense that -- to do an impersonation. you know, i just want to get the sense of who he is and allow that character just to be

absorbed into me, you know. so i'm able to then let him loose on stage. >> keeps slowing, no matter what. >> now 58, cranston is best known for "breaking bad." he grew up in los angeles, parents were both actors. but he first thought about becoming an actor, taking acting classes in his 20s and began with commercials. and small roles on tv. >> i don't have much money. (laughter) >> he played a dentist with an off-color sense of humor in seinfeld. >> where is jennifer today? his nearly seven-year stint on "malcolm in the middle" as kooky father increased his profile. but it was the wildly praised and popular show "breaking bad"

that finally made cranston a star. >> say my name. cranston won three emmis as walter white, chemistry teacher turned meth dealer and drug lord. being so identified as one character can be a double-edged sword. >> it can if you succumb to that kind of, you know, easy out. when malcolm in the middle ended after seven years, i was offered two pilots on tv for goofy dads. it was surprising to the people who offered it because they felt i was perfect for it. i thought, i'm not going to help you put me in a box. where do you suppose this came

from? >> that's why cranston chose this latest role, his first time on broadway and a chance to take on a multi-dimensional character caught in the tide of history. >> i'm going, let somebody else deal wit. >> no, you're not! yes, i am. no, you are not going to resign! >> you never knew which l.b.j. you would get when you walked into theoffs. >> i just love those kids of mine. >> he could be high, low, angry, happy, and you just had to deal with it. >> what do you think after this civil rights deal of mine? >> much focuses on the civil rights act of 1964. part of johnson's legacy of legislative achievement that's being remembered and celebrated now, 50 years later. and before he was worn down and for many tarnished by the vietnam war. do you feel yourself part of that looking back at the legacy and therefore some responsibility to that history?

>> there's a certain amount of ownership that happens when you take on a character. you absorb as much source material as you possibly can. it's like you're making a bouquet. you're taking bits and pieces from each material that resonate with you and you're crafting your own l.b.j., or whomever that character would be. >> i don't know where i read it but he had a standing appointment to get a massage every night at the white house and he called it a rub down. he'd get himself a rub down. and that informed a couple of things. i thought, he must have been tightly wound. so i gave him a back issue in the play. >> brown: indeed, the fiscal transformation cranston goes through is striking. back hundred -67d, face scrunched as johnson cajoles, sweet talks and threatens

legislators to get his way, the famous johnson treatment, as here with his future vice president, hubert humphrey. >> this is about votes! you know that's a problem with you liberals. you don't know how to fight! you want to get something done in the real world, hubert, you're going to have to get your hands wet! now you call yourself the leader of the liberal wing to have the democratic party then show me some damn leadership! >> we're doing the towering, looking down. >> brown: is it fun to do? it's a lot of fun to do. >> brown: is it? sure! anytime a man can boastfully be intimidating, you know, that's fun to do. i lean into you a little bit and say, now, first time i say something like, how's your wife? and i would remember her name. she's such a pretty lady. you're a lucky, lucky man. >> brown: i'm smiling and happy. >> then i say, now, we need to

be able to get this done, now, don't disappoint me. >> brown: i'm saying, yes, sir, to anything. >> yes, because i hook you in. he was uncanny with his political savvy. >> brown: cranston says he's grateful for the stardom that gives him the ability to pick his roles but comes off as an untortured sole who was happy being able to build a life-long career doing exactly what he wants. did you have times along the way that you thought maybe this won't happen like you hoped? >> no brown wherein you didn't? , because my goals are not to be a star or famous. by the time i was 25, i started working exclusively as an actor, and i'm 58 now, and that's all i've done since i was 25 years

old, and that's my proudest moment that i can say i'm a working actor, i make my living as an actor, and that's it. now, whatever happens happens. i march into a bright future or retreat into a dark past! >> brown: what happens next for bryan cranston? well, "all the way" runs through the end of june. he's writing a memoir due out next year and plays a scientist in the new movie god zilla. >> ifill: again, the major developments of the day. a national audit by the veterans affairs department found 57,000 vets have been waiting three months or longer to get care at v.a. hospitals. and the taliban threatened more violence in pakistan after a sunday assault killed 29 people at the country's busiest airport. >> woodruff: on the newshour

online right now, six million people have gained medicaid coverage since september, mostly thanks to the affordable care act, more than 1.7 million more are still waiting for their applications to be processed, according to a new report. read what states are doing to combat the backlog, from our partner kaiser health news, that's on our rundown. all that and more is on our web site, newshour.pbs.org. >> ifill: before we go, an editor's note: our report friday on the book industry stated that membership at the american booksellers association had grown to 664 this year. the number is in fact 1,664 independent booksellers, operating in over 2,000 locations, the most since 2005. we apologize for that. and that's the newshour for tonight. i'm gwen ifill. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff. we'll see you on-line, and again here tomorrow evening. for all of us here at the pbs newshour, thank you and good night. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by:

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this is "nightly business report" with tyler mathisen and susie gharib. >> deals splits and spinoffs. merck is shopping. time yi time, inc. goes off on its own. embarking on new chapters. the white house makes it easier for some students to pay down their debt load and calls for more changes. and kickoff, will one of the world's biggest sporting events help lift south america's biggest economies? we have that all on "nightly business report" for monday, june 9th. good evening, everyone. volatility spiked just a bit in the major averages saw just modest gains, equities did rise for a four