from washington, the mclaughlin group, the american original. for over three decades, the sharpest minds, best sources, hardest talk. the mclaughlin group is brought to you by siemens. every day, siemens answers are helping build the future of america. siemens. answers. >> we never thought we'd be farming wind out here. not just building jobs here, it's helping our community. >> siemens location here has just received a major order of wind turbine. >> it puts a huge smile on my face. >> the fact that iowa is

leading the way in wind energy, i'm so proud. it's just amazing. issue one, israel versus hamas. secretary of state john kerry is trying to broker a cease- fire to halt the two and a half weeks of fighting between israel and hamas, the palestinian movement that controls the gaza strip. the violence began on june 12 when three israely teenagers were kidnapped and murdered, presumably by politics. on july 2nd, the body of a palestinian youth burned to death in an alleged riprizal killing was discovered outside of jerusalem. riots broke out, hamas rockets fired into israely -- for 10 days, israel used air strikes

to try to stop the rocket attacks. aimed at clearing gaza of the rockets and tunnel networsham uses to bombard israel. so far, some palestinian and the israelis have been killed. as of friday, some 800 palestinians have been killed and 37 israelis. the number includes many civilians. what does hamas want from a cease-fire and what does israel want from a cease-fire? >> what hamas wants is a lifting of what they call the siege. they want an end to the blockade. they want to open the crossing into egypt through rafa. they would like to have there are airport open. they would like to fish farther out into the mediterranean. the israelis want to decapitate hamas, they want to blowup all

the tunnels. >> it has been the israeli strategy for at least the last decade to basically dismantle the tunnels and to eradicate the rockets. and they call it mowing the lawn every couple of years. the thing is this siege now, the former ambassador to the u.s. is basically saying the u.s. should help israel eradicate hamas. i think that is a false premise. the more you bomb gaza, you are never going to eliminate the resistance. more rockets can be acquired, more tunnels can be built. in building a cease-fire, i think they have to get to a point to where the israelis are willing to lift some of the conditions they've imposed on gaza and the israelis want to be able to leave troops along the border. i don't know if that's reasonable or not, but you've gotta give gaza something in

return for that and i gather that's what they're negotiating along these lines. >> i think the big picture is for a long time people thought the status quo suited people in israel. they thought they had it under control. most of the time they have the security wall up. you can convince yourself it was sustainable. on hamas' side, they felt they were winning the world-wide propaganda against israel. i think what's happening now is so bad and violent and particularly with israel when the airport was closed, the idea that it's sustainable, i think that's really in question. >> let's first have a definition here. hamas is another word for the muslim brother hood. they have no sympathy for israel on any level and the israelis know it. they know they have been threatened by these people forever. this is not a group where you

can deal with them in any kind of serious way. the israelis think the only way they can deal is to -- there will be enough pain deflected upon them that they will defer doing this for a long time. >> how long can the hamas hold out for a cease-fire on their own terms? >> i don't think they'll get it on their own terms. military pressure from the israelis, which is the only thing the israelis have found has worked in the past. >> there's a risk with the israelis as well. sanctions and disinvestment and the palestinians going to the un, getting them sanctions as alleged war criminals and all that. there is a loss for the israelis as well. >> do you know about the tunnels? >> yes, i do. >> how many miles of tunnels -- >> israelis have every right to

be threatened -- >> how many miles? >> some of them are three miles long. >> they add up to what number? >> frankly, they talk of hundreds of tunnels. >> hundreds of miles of tunnels. how deep? >> some of them go down as much as 24, 25 feet. they're 7 stories in height. they spend a fortune on these things. >> are they impregnable? >> these are extraordinarily dangerous. they come up out of them, they either capture israelis or kill israelis. they had handcuffs and drugs. the idea is that they would capture and kidnap them. >> do you remember the vietcong -- >> sure. they had underground cities. >> does hamas have advanced tunnels that are very deep in

the earth? >> yes. >> do you know how long it took to get rid of the tunnels? >> it's going to take a long time for the israelis to deal with this. >> no one's questioning israel's right to defend itself and have security. they are inflaming on the west bank too. there was a peaceful demonstration there, 10,000 people. israel has to ask itself, even if you do eradicate hamas, what takes its place? it would just be another version of hamas. >> how long can israel press its position in order to get a cease-fire? >> there's a short and a long term problem here. israel has every right to go after these tunnels. has every right right to go after the rockets. the long term question is you cannot kill your way to a peace deal. israel cannot kill enough politics to make them --

palestinians to make them go quiet. that has to remain on the table. all this settlement -- >> john, the real danger -- >> really has no hope -- >> one of the things was this attack -- the rocket that came near the airport and shut down the airport for two days. you take hamas and hekbala in lebanon, that's what they're going to shoot for in any future war because of the dramatic impact that had on the united states and european. and the isolation of economic israel. >> israel's weak point is world opinion. and what's fueling world opinion? >> whatever happens -- this is something that has happened over and over again. this is not the first time this has happened. whenever israel tries to retaliate, at some point, the world says israel cannot do this. >> why? >> because they don't want to have any fighting. >> because there are dead

children. >> that is the disproportionate casualty rate. it's horrible. >> these things are disproportionate. but the israelis cannot live under the threat they have had from the hamas people -- >> you don't think world opinion is going to assemble itself? >> i think it is assembling itself. >> pov, his former national security advisor, why he says prime minister netanyahu has blundered. >> dr. [ indiscernible ] was an advisor to former president jimmy carter in 1978 when the historic camp david middle east peace accord was signed between israel and egypt. >> i think he is isolated israel. he is endangering the long term future. this is an action which we disapprove and do not support and may compel us and the international community to take

steps of legitimizing palestinian aspirations in the un. >> what are your comments on this? tragically he's right. israel is -- our ally and friendly democracy in the middle east it. is being poisoned within. making no real distinction really between hamas and the more moderate forces. hamas is more wicked and you can't just lump them all together and essentially start having these forces and say all arabs are the enemy. >> who is the head of the un? >> banky moon. >> is he silent on this? >> no, he spoke out. but the united states is the only country giving diplomatic cover. >> is israel committing war crimes? >> they've said -- when the

children are dead, schools hit and the un -- >> it's sickening. >> it was a horrible thing. the only solution here is political. i understand why the israelis don't want a political solution. they say you let the west bank goes and it's next to gaza -- i think netanyahu has written off the idea of leaving the west bank. >> i have a question. how much support does hamas have in gaza? >> they have a lot of support in gaza, without question. look, i start off with how this thing -- the israelis were besieged by rockets going into their country. it would be as if 75 percent of the american population had 60 to 90 seconds to get into shelter. they can't live that way. they didn't start this thing. >> if they destroy -- >> they rounded up all these hamas guys who were not

responsible for the lynching of those three kids and hamas sat there and took it and fired rockets. israelis responded. >> israel has exploited the killings of those three children and they have retaliated by destroying everything that makes a life for civilians in gaza. the world is locoing and is horrified. i suspect israel will continue this as long as they think they can in the hopes of eradicating hamas. something has to change in this calculation. >> hamas is an idea and you can't kill it. >> does israel have any allies? >> clearly at many levels, the idea of israel when israel is being a proper western democracy has lots of allies. >> does israel have an ally in the current flow of events?

>> egypt is behind israel and anti-hamas and the turks are attacking the israelis as nazis. the whole thing is in turmoil. >> the leader of egypt is very strongly on the israeli side of this thing and against hamas because he believes they're the equivalent of the muslim brother hood and they are. saudi arabia and the allies -- i don't understand what the turks are doing. the a rab countries are in favor of israel. >> katar? >> katar is the only one. >> they're funder of the islamic state. >> the saudis are supportive of what they're doing. >> egypt is -- >> anti-hamas. antimuslim brother hood. >> egypt and -- the saudis and

a lot of the other countries are are allies. >> the saudis have to worry about extremists in their own territories. you can't stamp it out. you have to learn how to work with it and you have to give the people in gaza some means to make a living. you have 80 percent people on food aid. there's a blockade on them. israel likes to talk about how we left gaza, gaza's independent. they're ruling gaza like a colonial power. now we're seeing the blow back and it's transferring over to the west bank and the west bank can ignite. issue two, europe's verdict. coffins bearing the remains of some of the 298 people killed on malaysian air flight 17 began arriving this week in amsterdam in the netherlands, the home of most of the deceased. and debated how to price human

life. what kind of financial sanctions to impose on russia. also this week, u.s. intelligence briefed the press. almost 100 people remain missing, presumably still strewn across the miles long debris field created as the aircraft was torn apart. vladimir putin joined calls, but has not accepted responsibility for the 298 passenger deaths either on behalf of the russian government or on behalf of the pro-russian ukraine separatists. ukrainian military jets as if to underscore the -- flight 17 are still fully operational in eastern ukraine. also on wednesday, france

announced it would press on with the planned delivery of the ss [ indiscernible ] amphibious assault ship to russia. can carry troops, armored vehicles, and up to 16 attack helicopters. >> is moscow -- >> i would have more time for the european response if it was intimidation. if germany was so frightened that it didn't dare to energy deals. it's not about fear. it's about profit. i think that's where you can see the first flippers of a change. there's been [ indiscernible ] in dutch and german business men a week after the plane crash. the man handling of these bodies at the crash site implying that the whole thing was a hoax, that the bodies remember dead in the plane

seats before it hit the ground. it's a country the size of maryland, so everybody feels incredibly touched by this death. some of the companies had employees on this plane. so that profit-driven cringe does seem to be -- >> you also see an extraordinary reluctance of europeans in every country to move toward the isolation of russia treating them like a pariah because that is a deadened. all during the cold war, we're trying to reach out and engage them and the idea of now pushing them out into the cold is one that does not sit well with the europeans right next door. >> what about the role of money, business ties, investment by russian tycoons -- does that smooth over a lot of -- >> they're all inhibitions.

>> it's not fear of nuclear weapons. it's basically because the economies of europe are so intertwined with russia and those economies are fragile and they don't want to pay the economic price. it's real easy for a u.s. president to say they need to do this, and i do think they do. but i understand their reluctance. and you do see david cameron with tougher rhetoric. to pull all those countries together is a big task. >> do you think there's a dampning of rhetoric against putin going on by reason of business interest over here too? >> to some extent there is. i think there's another reason behind this. if you look at what's happened since the end of world war ii, the united states was the leader in terms of being able to oppose russia and led europe in this direction. i don't think there's any confidence in the

administration today that they will play in this role. europe by itself cannot do this. i believe what is a general feeling in europe over this issue. >> the president is limited because we don't have the same economic states and he can't act unless all of europe comes along. while i would like to think all the allies could be united, i think you're asking too much. >> the big thing is do europeans think of vladimir putin as a potential reasonable partner? and i think that view is really changing fast. that makes a big difference. >> the magazine is recommending tough sanctions? >> and also understanding that this is no longer some way you can do business -- >> do you think russia is going to be banished from any international organization? >> it's already suspended from

the g7. they should be ban friday that. >> the world cup in 2018 may be on the table -- >> the bricks are meet nothing -- south america. >> putin is inching into the territory of north korea basically. >> an act of insanity to treat russia like north korea. >> will the downing of flight 17 stiffen the resolve of the european union? a shiver could go around the 28 member eu looking for a spine to travel up. stiffen the resolve or remain wobbly? >> wobbly now, but they're stiffening a bit. >> that's right. i think there's still hope that they're going to tighten the screws on putin. >> what do you think?

>> stiffens worldliness. >> i think it's a wobbly stiffness. >> i'm with you all. issue three, smiling on angola. >> if we address issues that have bearing on the intelligence here, i'm convinced our corporation in this area is a helpful one. yet there are differences of opinion on what sort of balance to strike between the intensity of civilians of -- trying to protect the citizens and on the other hand, protecting individual freedom. and that will require further discussion between our two countries in order to overcome these differences of opinion. president obama and german chancellor had one of those discussions on telephone after [ indiscernible ] took the step

of expelling from germany the u.s.'s cia chief. the diplomat was -- following germany's investigation -- who was alleged to be spying for the united states along with a 2nd alleged cia mole in the bnd, germany's federal intelligence service. the embarrassing incidents are a test for u.s.-german relations. last october that the u.s.'s nsa had monitored chancellor merkel's personal cell phone, surveilled her email, text messages and phone conversations to and from germany. germany is a pivotal player in -- also recall that germany in the 28 member european union is

the no. 1 power. also apart from the european union, president obama needs chancellor merkel's cooperation for some of the sensitive initiatives, particularly the nuclear talks with iran. >> how much damage has been done to the relationship by the u.s. spying? >> german public opinion is -- she secretly knows this is just how the world works. but she has to go tough. german public opinion is a streak of anti-americanism and they have their history of spying -- >> germany is not interested in a serious rift with the u.s. there's a group called the

5i's. they agree not to spy on each other. in exchange far that, they have extraordinary access to each other's intelligence. the germans were asked if they want to be part of that and they didn't want to. you can see the cia is over there. it was a node for the 9/11. i can see how the cia overstepped. she's right to react the way she did, but i agree with you. she's a grown up -- >> obama has taken a deep hit in the polls in germany. germany's, quote, past infatuation with obama makes the present disappointment all the deeper. >> we ought to ask ourselves what is the cost benefit for spying on the germans considering the losses we have with our primary ally on the continent.

>> pat's got it right on the head. we have to be careful when we deal with our most important ally in europe. predictions? >> collision between the president and congress in november or a little later when it's revealed there's going to be no deal with the iranians. and there will be a real dust up -- >> the obvious, pat. >> republicans will pick up the senate seat in montana because the incumbent john wallsh blamed ptsd for his plagiarizizing a thesis that he wrote. >> david? >> i think we're going to be talking about iraq again soon. i think things have been falling apart and we've been so fixateod ukraine we're missing some of the gains on the

islamic state. >> baghdad? do you think the government is going to fall? >> the weakening in the housing market and the weakening in the job market means we're going to have a very low rate of growth and it's going to have a big impact. >> for at least two players in the u.s.'s irs widening scandal. bye bye. the mclaughlin group is brought to you by siemens. every day, siemens answers are helping build the future of

america. siemens. answers. we never thought we'd be farming wind out here. not just building jobs here, it's helping our community. >> siemens location here has just received a major order of wind turbines. >> it puts a huge smile on my face. >> the fact that iowa is leading the way in wind energy, i'm so proud. it's just amazing.

company" -- >> republicans could come screaming out of the gate going forward and say we're the ones who will fight for the poor. we're the ones who will fight for workers. you might not agree how we're going to do it, but you will not doubt our hearts. >> funding is provided by ann gumowi gumowitz, carnegie, the ford foundation, working with visionaries on social change worldwide, the herb albert