>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin with rondermer, israel's ambassador to the united states. >> the hope is after this rounl, that hamas will be deterred from taking action both because we have degraded its capability, and also because we damaged its intention of attacking us knowing that they're not going to get away with attacking us with impunity, that they will pay a heavy price. and the additional hope is that right now maybe because of the change of government in egypt that we might be able to put in place mechanisms that will take it exceedingly difficult for hamas to rearm and to rebuild its arsenal in gaza f that happens will you have sustained quiet for a much longer time period krz we continue with sabrina tavernise "the new york times" correspondent in ukraine. >> you felt like these people were so close to being alive, you know, that these people had, you know, you saw their little water bottles that the plane had

given them and the plane blankets and you just felt like you could see them and hear them having those conversations with their kids, with their spouses. you know, minutes before this had happened. it just felt, it felt unbelievable, you know, it felt like it was impossible that it had happened krz we conclude this evening with driss el yazami, the head of a national human rights council in morocco. >> i think that the challenge in our region, you know, when you see what is in libya, iraq now, egypt,iamen, syria, you know, the challenge in our region, i think, how to reform democratic and peaceful way. we have to accomplish in the arab world in some decades what you in the united states accomplished in five, six centuries. krz rondermer, sabrina tavernise and driss el

yazami, when we continue. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: >> there's a saying around here: you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look. >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by

rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. krz we continue our coverage of the conflict in gaza, earlier today israel announced a four hour humanitarian cease-fire, that cease-fire has passed punctuated in any case from attacks on both sides, israel strikes on a busy market killed at least 15 and injured 150 others. last note reports suggested israeli shells hit a united nations school in gaza quilling at least 20. joining me is rondermer israel's ambassador to the united states. i'm pleased to have him back on this program. welcome back. >> great to be with you, charlie. >> rose: tell me what is happening at this moment in terms of your communication with your government on the ground in gaza. >> look, we're trying to get to a sustainable cease-fire that will essentially achieve three goals. the first is bring an end to these rocket attacks. we've had nearly 3,000 rockets that have been fired at israel, and were two-thirds of our country,

equivalent to about 200 million americans who have had to go into bomb shelters for the last three weeks multiple times a day. the secosthing we want to do is take care of these tunnels. the tunnels that have been dug from gaza into israel where terrorists infiltrate, pop out the israeli side, try to kill civilian, soldiers, we lost a number of soldiers from the tunnel attacks. we found dozens of them and were in the process of destroying them as we speak, so we want to make sure during a cease-fire, after a cease-fire, we need to destroy those tunnels. and the third thing we want to do is we want to make sure that a gaza doesn't simply, that hamas doesn't rearm itself after. because we've now had three rounds of confrontation with hamas. the first was in 2008. the end of 2008. then we had pillar of defense in november 2012. this is the third time. and we have to make sure we don't have a fourth one in a year, a year and a half so that means we need to have an effective mechanism to

prevent hamas from just rearming, rebuilding all those tunnels, rebuilding those rockets. and those are the discussions we're having now. how do you effect not only an immediate cease-fire but a sustainable cease-fire. >> those will argue with you who will argue that if you wipe out hamas what will come after them will be worse than hamas. >> listen, i suppose you could always make that argument. i read a book once, i think was the rise and fall of the third reich about the british ambassador at the time to ger men-- germany telling his home office in london that they should take it easy with hitler because the next guy will be worse. you know, hamas is a genocidal terror organization. they call for not just the destruction of israel, would be bad enough, and they not only are firing thousands of rockets and have suicide bombers and these tunnels and every single ago of terror you can think of, they also call for the murder of jews worldwide. these are people who were dancing on 9/11 when thousands of americans were dead and the leader of hamas, mr. hani who is right now

hidden somewhere in gaza actually condemned the united states for killing osama bin laden it is hard to imagine swb worse than hamas. >> rose: so you're trying to wipe out the hamas leadership today. and if so does that mean khaled mashal. >> we have not-- our directive and the objective of this operation is sustained peace and quiet for israel. israel has had to take action against this terror organization that, by the way, is not just recognized as a terror organization in the united states. it's also recognized in the eu, australia and canada, including in egypt it considered to be a terror organization. so we've taken certain measures over the years in order to protect our people. and will continue to do what's necessary to protect our people. but the goal of our operation is not to reconquer gaza, not fully dismantle hamas there, that's a goal that militarily could be achievable. but that's not the goal of the operation. it's to restore sustained quiet, hopefully we want to do that diplomatically if we can, if not militarily. >> but the question is what do you think is being to be necessary. because also those who argue

the only way you can ever do that is simply to occupy gaza and that's the last thing you want to do. >> look, after, let's take the last operation in 2012 pillar of defense. most people at the time were opposed to a cease-fire because they were afraid we were going to be in another round very soon. it turns out that that cease-fire held more or less for about a year and a half. in 2013 was the quietest year in israel. it didn't mean there were no rockets am we had 74 rockets and mortars fired at israel over the course of 2013. that ended up being the quietest period for a decade. the hope is after this round that hamas will be deterred from taking action, both because we have degraded its capabilities, and also because we have damaged its intention of attacking us knowing that they're to the going to get away with attacks us with impunity that they will pay a heavy price. the additional hope is that right now maybe because of the changing government in egypt that we might be able to put in place mechanisms

that will make it exceedingly difficult for hamas to rearm and to rebuild its arsenal in gaza. if that happens you'll have sustained quiet for a much longer time period. >> "the washington post" today lead story gaza war hugely popular in israel. public support is broad and growing. also finds high approval of netanyahu's leadership. when i talk to the people in hamas they say the same thing about the people in gaza supporting what hamas is doing. >> well, that's not true. because hamas just has to execute people in gaza who were challenging their rule. i don't know if it has been widely reported in the press. but the people in gasa, i think, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence. i don't know how they conduct polls in gaza that they are fed up with hamas because they know they are not achieving anything. i'm sure there are many people in gaza, obviously. they're not great designists and when are you foyting a war and being hit in a war, no one is going look towards israel and say they support israel. i think they understand that hamas is taking them down the wrong path.

the difference, charlie s that the people of gaza can't speak out any more than the people of iran who dislike their regime can go out and speak out. because these are brutal regimes that crush all descent. hamas executed people who spoke against them because they don't want a situation where they're facing the rage of the people of gaza. >> rose: how far will israel go to wipe out hamas? >> how far are you willing to go to achieve your objective? >> well, we will have to go as far as we have to go. you hope you don't have to go all the way. and reconquering the-- conquering the whole area to wipe them out. i want to remind you 12 years ago, in operation defensive shield that was an operation that was launched during the second anti-fatah after one of the worst periods of terror attacks in israeling we had one month in march of 200023 where we lost hundreds of israelies to suicide bombings including that pass over satter bombing and we launched a military operation in the west bank, and we went into all these palestinian areas.

and we dismantled the terror infrastructure that existed in the west bank at the time. it took a long time. it took a couple of years. we built a security fence in terrorism emanating from the west bank. in the case of a we have not done such a broad and sweeping operation. and that is not the current goal of the current operation. but who knows? hamas may think that they are just going to keep firing, not have a cease-fire, continue to make their people pay this horrific price, and we might have to take further action. we hope that that doesn't action. we hope we can find a cease-fire that can be turned into a sustainable cease-fire. >> rose: what are you hearing from the united nations? because of what was happening in the last 24 hours to that united nations facility? >> well, look, it's important also to get the facts straight. because the second something happens, you know, you see these pictures there is a rush to judgement on israel. we had a case two days ago, where there were reports that there was an attack on a hospital in gaza and an attack on a refugee camp where a number of children were killed. and of course most reports

say that israel was responsible. some of the more fair-minded people said well, we don't know the facts yet. it has become a "he said, she said" situation. and then the truth was very clear yesterday. where we got a radar photo that showed that that hospital and that refugee camp, i actually have it here. i don't know if you can see it on the screen here, but you can see rit here. >> rose: i can see,. >> so we know right here we had a rocket fired from inside gaza, these rockets were actually fired by palestinian islamic jihad. they fired a salvo of four rockets of one of them went into the sea. one of them hit the hospital. one of them hit the refugee camp. and one of them went to-- and was intercepted by the iron dome. so here was a case where everyone rushed to judgement against israel, said how could israel attack a hospital. how could israel attack kids playing on a playground. and it turned out that that was completely false. those were rockets that were fired by islamic jihad in gaza at israel that fell short b 10% of the 2,000

plus rockets fired at israel, nearly 3,000 locates, i should say, fall within gaza. now the case of the u.n. schools that you mentioned, i don't know if we have investigated exactly what happened in the school. but we don't target u.n. schools. what we are very concerned about is that hamas has used u.n. schools, as storage depots for their weapons. we have had now three schools that have rockets have been found there. now unra is this organization, you know, the initials u-n-r-w-a, supposed to be the relief workers it is not supposed to be a rocket warehouse. and that is what you have with the u.n. schools. we now may have found that a tunnel. >> rose: how large-- some are not. >> well, i'm not saying that they all are but how can you have u.n. schools used to score rockets that sun acceptable. people should be outraged about this. now we may have a considered coulding to reports just before i walked in here, we may have had a tunnel that came from a u.n. medical clinic, one of these tunnels that are used to attack israel, kill our civilians,

it actually may have originated in the u.n. medical clinic. and in trying to actually destroy that tunnel, a number of our soldiers were killed because it was booby trapped. the world has got to speak out against the use of human shields. we are dealing with an enemy, charlie, that both fires on our civilians, people understand that. but they are using hospital, schools and mosques in a way that is unacceptable. >> rose: and the world is asking, and many people who are friends of israel are asking, how far is it necessary to go to achieve the objective that you think are important. and do we have to have this level of violence against the people of gaza in order to achieve the objective you said, a period of quiet. >> look, we're not targeting any civilians. >> rose: whether you target them or not, ron, they're being hit. you know you had more than a thousand people die, many of them, most of them are civilians and many of them are children. >> first of all, i don't think most of them are civilians and i wouldn't rush to judgement on that hundreds of hamas fighters have been killed.

time after time these statistics come out, they're from a principle health ministry run by hamas and they say everybody is a civilian, wait, hold your horses. will you see that, mind you, you invite me back on your show hopefully after it is all said and done and will you see at least 50% of these people are hamas fighters. but understand, we are under a stack-- attack. the way israel should be judged by the international community is not by some standard of perfection. the international community every serious responsible country has to act. how would we act when faced with aye similar threat. how would we act when thousands of rockets are being fired. how we ago if our military is going in, house-to-house and become fired upon. how would we act if you had an enemy that was using human shields and using hospitals, mosques and schools to store weapons. are we just going hold back and fire rock epts at us or are we going to go and try to root this out. in the most cautious way, no military in history has used such caution and made such

an effort to get the innocence of the other side out of harm away. that is a fact. >> rose: where are they going to go to get out of harm away. because the time between the notice and how they can get people together and in some cases has not been that long. >> in most cases it's been pretty long. usually we give them a couple of days to get out of major areas where we know there is going to be ground forces coming in. in some of the worst battles, we told them 48 hours before to get out. and we tell them not only to get out of point a but where to go to point b that they won't be hit. they have places to go. unfortunately, the whole u.n. system has been penetrated by hamas. this is a major problem. how do you not have a safe haven, a u.n. school or a hospital or a mosque, how can you not have places in gaza. and the reason is, is because these people, hamas, will do anything. and they have no moral inhibitions whatsoever. they don't play by any set of rules. that is what israel is dealing with. >> rose: are there any circumstances in which you

would deal with hamas directly? what would they have to do? give me one through ten that they would have to do. >> i will give you one through three. >> rose: okay. >> they have to recognize israel's right to exist. they have to abandon terrorism and accept previous agreements. those are the conditions not made by israel but by the international community to be a legitimate interlock eter with israel am we will not deal with people who call for their destruction what do we negotiate w the terms of our destruction. it's unacceptable. >> rose: i realize are you not going negotiate the terms of why destruction. so tell me, if they, in fact, as you know, i did an interview with the political leader of hamas. and i thought i heard you criticize me because i kept pursuing the question of what are you prepared to do and do you trek israel's right to exist. suppose they would come to that conclusion, without that change things? >> of course. then are you in a different reality. that's what happened when the plo crossed the rubicon and decided to recognize

israel's right to exist and to abandon terrorism. unfortunately, they didn't abide by that commitment and yassir arafat was saying one thing in the west an something else to his own people and also waged war. mahmoud abbas has been different in that he has not partaken in violence but palestinian society, charlie, is basically split in two. on the one hand you have half of the political leadership of the palestinians who are committed to israel's destruction openly. and the other half 6 the palestinian society is not really prepared to confront the first half. that's the problem. they're not committed to violence. and it's good that president abbas has not been committed to violence. we don't take that for granted. but for hamas to actually be a peace partner, they have to accept israel's right to exist. they don't. and they say they never will. that's what we're dealing with. we're dealing with this terror organization that wants to destroy it and will just arm itself in order to achieve that goal. >> rose: looking at the negotiations that are taking place, that have taken place, john kerry was in paris negotiating with the foreign minister of qatar and

foreign minister of turkey. david ignatius who you know was critical for attempting to negotiate with qatar instead of egypt and fatah, with the palestinian authority. do you agree with david ignatius on that? or do you think you should talk to somebody who talks to hamas. >> look, there is an issue in actually achieving the cease-fire because the relationship between the egyptian government and hamas is not the same that it was. but i can tell you, charlie, neither turkey or qatar are positive influences in our region. and everyone should know the egyptian proposal, the cease-fire proposal is the only guil in town. and i think they should be pushed, hamas, to accepting that cease-fire. they're obviously under enormous political pressure, economic pressure and now military pressure from israel. but there is only one route and that is to accept the egyptian proposals. and then to try to find a way to moverward so that we don't repeat these operations every year and a half, every couple of years. >> rose: i'm sure you've

asked yourself this, and certainly israeli military leadership and political leadership has asked it. why under the barack-- barrage that are being rained down upon them and what is happening in the gaza, why do you think they're continuing? >> well, other than the general rule that they want to attack jews and they want to destroy israel, specifically now i think it's because they're under enormous pressure. they're politically isolated. they have no friends in the region. the change in egypt i think has hurt them considerably because the he gyp-s have knocked out about 90% of the tunnels. the tunnels used between egypt and gaza to smuggle weapons and smuggle goods. they were kicked out of syria because of the battles that were taking place there. so their friends in the region are basically qatar, the turks and iranians, that's it they're under enormous economic pressures because once those tunnels were destroyed, that was a source of income for hamas. and they're not getting income from the tunnels in the way they did before. they're also not getting income from the palestinian

authority. we collect tax revenues for the pa. we transfer them over to the pa every month. the pa is not transfering to hamas to pay their salaries. so they are under enormous political and economic pressures. and what they want to do is break out of this isolation, economic pressure. >> rose: should the pa be transferred it over to hamas to pay the civil servants. >> no. >> rose: why. >> why do we want to strengthen a terror organization. what's the point. i mean they're on life-support. they want to fire rockets at israel to get out of their problem. why should we give them more energy? why dow want to recharge a battery which is only for destruction? that's what they want to do. and that's why once we get a cease-fire proposal, and hopefully they will agree to it because they are paying a very heavy price, we have to make sure that it's sustainable by having mechanisms in place that prevent them from rearming in the future. here's the interesting thing, charlie. the egyptian government may make it very difficult now because of their relationship to hamas to

actually get to a cease-fire. but unlike the morsi government, the previous muslim brotherhood government in egypt t may be much easier to make a cease-fire sustainable. because now you have a partner in egypt that doesn't want to see hamas rearm. and we don't want to see hamas rearm in israel. and that makes it more likely that we can have a sustainable cease-fire. >> rose: well, not only that, in order to somehow get to some equilibrium here, the egyptians would have to agree to open the borders again. >> well, israel has not had a problem with open borders between egypt and gaz az. >> rose: egypt does. >> look, that's another question. and i'm sure that egypt will make the decisions that they think are in egypt's interest but i can tell you from israel's point of view, we don't have a problem with goods coming into gaza. we actually put goods into gaza that come in through israel and transit points that we have and also during the war it's important to note we're putting a lot of food and medicine in every single day, even while they're firing rockets at

our civilians, killing our soldiers, supplies are constantly going into gaza, we don't have a problem with those passages being hopefully manned by the pa which would be a palestinian authority which would be much better than hamas. goods going in. our problem is with weapon smuggling going in and also dual use items like concrete, iron, chemicals. now you remember, charlie, two years ago, circumstances months ago even, a year ago am people mr. saying look, why are you preventing these concretes. and iron, these heartless israelies that are not allowing the people of gaza to build a better future. well, the problem that we have, charlie, is they were using the concrete to build this labyrinth subterranean fortress of these tunnels under nooelt gaza. they were using iron to manufacture their rockets to be fired at israel. that's the problem we have. we have to have a mechanism in place that makes sure that goods are going to build a better future for the people of gaza and not to fuel hamas's war machine. that is what we have to discuss once we get to a

cease-fire. >> rose: why isn't your objective simply to destroy hamas. why don't you go all the way and say we're going to wipe them out. >> as i said people in israel advocate that but that's not the objective rses tell me that is not the-- why that is not the objective. i realize the foreign minister makes that point. so why isn't it the objective. >> first of all it is an objective that is militarily achievable. but the reason is everything comes with a price. israel can go do that. it would be a very big price for our soldiers. it wob a huge price for palestinian civilians, considering what hamas is and how they embed themselves in the civilian population. and frankly, charlie, hamas is not the only enemy that israel faces. prime minister of israel who has the weight of the world on his shoulders and is responsible for the security and survival of israel has to look at the entire region and all the threats facing israel, not just in one front. we have many, many issues we have to deal with. we have hezbollah in the north, they have 100,000 rockets. we have basically the

disintegration of many of the states in the region and security problems that arise from that. the worst security danger for israel is iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons. so the prime minister has a very full plate of security threats. and it's not just one problem g in there and sol of this one problem. because there are other issues that the prime minister has to deal with. and he has to make a decision and a calculation what is the most important thing for israel's security at any specific time. and that's why he outlined specifically the goal, not to dismantle all of hamas's infrastructure, not to reconquer gaza but to restore peace and quiet for the people of israel. that's through deterrents, not through conquering gaza. >> rose: thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> rose: rondermer is the ambassador from israel to the united states. he was recently pro pile-- profiled in "the new york times" and he was described in that article as bebe's brain, that and more. back in a moment, stay with us.

is. >> sabrina tavernise has been covering ukraine for "the new york times". she was one of the first journalists to reach the crash site of malaysian air 17. two weeks ago on this program you saw her first report from the scene courtesy of cbs news. this week she's able to join us for a longer discussion. and i'm pleased to have her here. let me just go back to the crash scene though. i mean how soon did you get there? >> so we got there at around 8:00 p.m. which was a couple of hours after the plane had been shot out of the sky it it was coming close to getting dark. there were a few sort of rag tag firefighters putting out what was actually a quite large fire in the fuselage area of the plane. i had come from amsterdam and it had only made it an hour or so so it was full of fuel it was burning hotly and largely. and but really other than the firefighters, there weren't really many people out there. there were some rebels kind of milling around.

there were some villagers. the plane had landed, the hulk, the biggest part had landed in between these two little villages where, people had cows and chickens an were very rural agricultural peasants. and we got out of the car. and looked around. and it was the most-- really incomprehensible contrast, i think i had ever seen in my life. there were these incredibly beautiful expanses of farmland, sun flower fields, wheat fields, very tall green grasses. and bodies everywhere. i mean it was-- we drove up and immediately went down into the tall grasses and saw-- started to count and we counted one, two, three and-- i mean the collective

sadness of that place was just, it is impossible really to convey. it was a very strange, very upsetting place. >> rose: and you've seen a lot. >> i have. i mean i've been-- i was telling my husband and my friends, you know, i have been-- si have sown cafes moments after they had been suicide bombed. i've been with the military in iraq an afghanistan. i've been in pakistan and suicide bombings. but there was something about this place that really affected me. and i think, you know, part of it was just the expanse of it. i mean it was 13 square miles of pieces of plane and people. part of it was the emptiness and the quietness of it. it was, you know, usually you come upon a disaster of

those proportions and you think okay, there's going to be police. there's going to be police tape there are going to be rescue vehicles. and you know there were some-- there were some rescue workers kind of milling around. >> rose: but nobody was supervising. >> no. no one was in charge. no one was going through those fields taking photographs, measuring things, there was nobody is so it was a handful of journalists. and there really weren't many people left in eastern ukraine at that point. and these people, you know. >> rose: an their possessions, purses, children's stuff. >> and many possessions. so that was the other thing that was difficult to absorb which was that, you know, they were all in these tall grasses. you couldn't see them from the road. you literally had to walk through the grasses and sort of come upon them. and the field was scattered with this very strange a sourcement of things. there were peacocks. there were two parrots.

there was a whole crate of chickens with brown feathers there were feathers everywhere from the chickens from the crate there were people's suitcases with belongings had just spilled out on to the grass, bathing suits, guide books, oil of olay face lotion. teva shoes. you felt like these people were so close to being alive, you know, that these people had, you know, you saw their little water bottles that the plane had given them and the plane blankets. and you just felt like you could see them and hear them having those conversations with their kids, with their spouses, you know, minutes before this had happened. it just felt, it felt unbelievable, you know, it felt like it was impossible that it had happened. >> rose: and what do we know now from the investigation as to whose's responsible? >> so the americans feel quite certain that the

missile was a surface-to-air missile and that it was shot from the area of eastern ukraine. the americans feel pretty certain that the plane was shot down by rebels. the russians dispute that. though if you look closely at president putin's statement immediately after it was a bit of a nondenial denial. he essentially said, you know, this happened because ukraine restarted military operations. >> rose: is it possible that russians were operating. >> i think it's possible. i think it's possible. i don't-- the americans don't really, aren't telling us if they know. they're saying that they are sure that people, rebels were trained in russia. but they don't know who actually physically pulled the trigger. >> rose: do they know when it came into eastern ukraine. >> as far as i know, no. there's a lot of speculation about a video that had circulated. i don't know if that is something that you encountered that showed, you know, the alleged buk that

is the missile system that the name of the missile system, coming into eastern ukraine. you know, firing into the air. they don't have the scene of it firing and then being taken back into russia. so allegedly it really had only spent ten hours or something like that in eastern ukraine. >> rose: so we have seen these consequences, number one, the west has racheted up because of this the west has racheted up the sanctions. >> that's right. >> rose: secondly we have seen what kind of response from vladimir putin. >> so you know, i think it was a very interesting moment immediately after the crash because he appeared almost frozen. i mean there was this great kind of silence it was like the russians were sort of the deer between the headlights for a couple of days, there was really no response at all. and in fact at the crash site you had a bit of a sense of that. that first morning we were working very quickly in kind of the gray dawn because we were expecting rescue workers were going to come

immediately and shut it down. but no one did. you know it was like-- and there were rescue workers gathering on the road but they never came into the fields t was like they were waiting for someone to give an order, for someone to decide what to do. but no one knew what to do. and these people were just lying there. and they just were standing watching it was very strange. i noted it in my notebook because i remember thinking-- . >> rose: so it is a contaminated sight. >> it is. it is possible they were given an order not go in and touch anything because that's what the europeans wanted. but it was very confusing that morning as to what-- why-- . >> rose: they did turn over, did they not, the black boxes. >> they did. >> rose: without being tampered with. >> yes, yes. they did turn over the black included malaysians, very late one night, my gosh it was almost 2:00 in the morning they finally did it. but you know, there were several foreigners. there were three malaysians working at that crash site for the better part of five days and working at the crash site really

unmolested. they were with its oace convoy. >> rose: same that the separatists and rebels did not try to stop them. >> correct. so they like many, many western journalists who had come in to cover it would drive that road g to the crash site, look around, take photographs, write things down. and you know t really was only when the ukrainians decided to do some, you know, major military push push right around the area of the crash site two days ago that the dutch delegation was stopped from going in. i mean you know, their investigators had been going in and looking around so there was a narrative that oh, the rebels are blocking but i think was actually much more complicated than that. >> rose: too early to tell whether this will have a consequence with respect to the future of ukraine? >> you know, i think the future of ukraine, i think, you know initially the hope was this will be a turning point because it will be proven that the rebels were the ones that shot the plane

down. and no one could possibly back them after you know such a tragedy caused by them. but i think what's happened unfortunately is that the narrative has sort of con guiled in a way in eastern ukraine that has, in fact, the ukrainians shooting down the plane. that's what people there believe. people there-- . >> rose: in eastern ukraine. >> in eastern ukraine. >> rose: that the government shot it down. >> correct. >> rose: because they are opposed to the government and they don't trust the government. >> that is correct. there have been many, there had been several ukrainian bombings in the area so in fact when we first started talking to the villagers they said when we heard this terrible thing falling from the sky we thought it was the ukrainian government planes coming to bomb. that's what we thought it was. so there is a great hostility to kiev and the central government out there and it sort of, people see what they want to see based on what their political leafs-- beliefs are. >> rose: how strong would they be without russian

support. >> i don't think they would have much of a chance at all. i think they would collapse almost immediately. you see the persons have accused the russians of giving the rebels a lot of tanks, heavy armour, equipment, weapons. and you see that sloshing all around out there. i mean we drove days and days and days. we spent five, ten hours in the car. we drove all of those roads and we saw many, many tanks. many, many armour personnel carriers. you see the equipment out there. so certainly it's coming. >> stephen: . >> rose: so what are the temperatures like? >> that's a great question. you know, the tragic moment of the plane crash was that you know everyone wanted to know who did this. you know who were the-- who was-- who were the people who pulled the trigger. they must have been monsters. for the most part, i've spent now the better part of two months driving around on those roads an living in those areas. these people are indigenous people who are often coal

minors, clerks in various departmentses, they're drivers of buses, they're kind of just people living there who feel threatened that the ukrainian government is bringing tanks and planes to take, you know, to suppress the rebellion. and you know, for the most part they are impoverished. for the most part their pants are tied together with pieces of string. they have one cow. they have very old rifles. many took pains to point out to us you know to show us look at where my gun was made. look at the stamp right here and it would be 1945, 1952. you know, very old pieces of equipment. so the narrative that's formed out there, that the ukrainian government was the one that shot done the plane. to people out there it makes sense because they see these rebels and they think these guys, they can barely, they done even have enough money to eat, never mind have a fancy piece of equipment. >> rose: they want to belong to russia or they want ukraine simply to be

connected to russia or they want -- >> you know. >> rose: including the leadership, these sort of gruff guys that we've seen interviewed. >> i mean the leadership is kind of sort of relatively nasty lot. they're mostly moskowvites. they are kind of high on the idea that they are leading this kind of rebel yen and it's their war. and you know, they have a very extreme nationalist views. but i would say for the most part the rank and file, i think they're confused about what they want. i don't think that they-- for the most part people don't want ukraine to be part of russia. you know, they don't want-- they have some vague idea about well, we should just be on our own. which is obviously not sustainable. but i think that they-- . >> rose: they want to be partitioned or something. >> they want to be able to make their own decisions about who they elect and they-- but you know-- . >> rose: would they speak ukrainian or russian. >> definitely russian speaking. they're culturally russian and speak russia as their man language. many don't even understand

ukrainian. they feel alienated by what they saw in my dawn in the revolution in the west. they feel that that had nothing to do with them. it deposed a lead their was in fact from their part of the country. and they feel they just feel that they don't, it's alien to them. and now they have a government coming into, they always say they're coming to us. they're coming to our land. they're shooting at us. they're shooting these missiles at us. we're trying to defend ourselves. >> rose: dow believe an other correspondent people from "the new york times" who are closer to putin, cover putin believe that the sanctions will have an impact? >> i think that the sanctions aren't unimportant. i think initially pokle were laughing them off as ah, the russians don't care about this at all. i think that they do. and i think that thinking people in russia are very, very worried about them. >> rose: an rich people. >> and rich peoplement and rich people in russia are important. but i think that putin himself is going back to the

angela merkel quote, you know s in his own world s in another world. he's not, it's unclear to me at what, what reality he's operating in. >> rose: perhaps russian intel against, putin had nothing to do with it and this is what happens when people get out of control with bad weapons. >> yeah, that's very-- that's probably the most likely scenario. i think for that reason it is just an extremely dangerous situation. and it's not clear to me, it's not clear to me what the future is for it i mean this time i spent in eastern ukraine, you know, the people are enraged and very bitter toward kiev and the government, the central government. i mean that war is awful. those ground missiles that they shoot from are exprepare-- extremely imprecise. they're shooting at each other with these soviet era rockets that land in this vast area and end up killing a lot of civilians. >> rose: from the last century, wasn't it. >> it was.

i mean they're dropping dumb bombs, big hunks of steel that explode. it's like world war ii basically. you know, the wind blows and they hit a house instead of the rebel base. that seems to be what happened-- it's not clear to me how the ukrainian government is going to pick up the pieces of this. even if they managed to sort of subdue the area and kick the rebels out. >> rose: and with an economy in bad shape and needing help from the west as well. >> that's right. >> rose: thank you, great to see you. >> great to see you too. >> rose: back in a moment, stay with us. >> el yazami is here president of the morocco council for human rights, he said human rights have improved in recent years but there is still a long way to go. i am pleased to have him here at this table for the first time, welcome. >> thanks a lot, mr. rose. tell me about you first before we talk about human rights in morocco. how many years were you in prison. >> i was exiled. i was sentenced to life

imprisonment. >> rose: to life in i prison. >> human-- . >> rose: what year was that. >> i was sentenced in 1977. my brother also was sentenced. we were young. we went to democracy human rights in morocco. we had difficult times. and we had lots of human rights relations. so i been sentenced and i lived left morocco and lived in france more than 30 years. >> rose: when did you come back to morocco. >> in 2004. i had been asked to be a member of the moroccan third commission because one of the achievements in my country, what we did in morocco was to launch in 2004 moroccan commission which worked on human rights relations which gave reparation to the former victims, which give them, you know, to talk, which permit them to talk on tv, to give their testimonies.

and also you know, we had reports with lots of recommendations to guarantee that nonrepetition of this human rights relations. >> rose: was it based on its model that we saw in south africa the truth and reconciliation. >> it was similar and different, you know. but it was really, it's the only truth commission in the islamic world, before i was in tunesia because they launched the truth commission in tunesia but until now the moroccan experience is the only one in the islamic world, and the fifth one in africa. >> rose: and what do you hope to accomplish? >> you know, i think that the change in our region, you know, when you see lib ya, iraq now, egypt, yemen, syria, you know, the change in our region i think on how to reform democratic and peaceful way. we have to accomplish in the

arab world in some decades what you in the united states accomplished in five, six centuries. >> rose: yes. >> the process of reform is, you know, quite complex so we want a democratic, plurallistic and peaceful society. we are trying to reform in morocco. it's quite difficult but we are trying. we begin before the arab spring we begin with this truth commission. we begin ten years before with the reform of the family code, giving women more rights because one of the challenges in the arab and islamic challenges is equality between men and women. you know we have still lots of problems in this. >> rose: where are they making progress on that? >> you know, i think that we are noticing in our society mainly in country like morocco, tunesia, lebanon also, some silence

revolutions. we are now urban, young, connected societies. 51% of moroccans are under 25 years. 55% of moroccans are living now in cities. we are about 7 million moroccans on the internet. so you have to give jobs to this young population. and the-- . >> rose: the percentage of unemployment is. >> as you know, we have t to-- each year we have 180,000 new moroccans asking for jobs. so we have to give them jobs. moroccans, i think, are asking for democracy and rights. you have more than 50,000 engineers, we have a vibrant civil society and people are asking now, just thought. >> "the new york times" said

this after the arab spring said king mohammed offered constitutional reforms that guaranteed more social equality and attention to human rights. but those changes are once again cosmetic des pite urges by many to make swift changes. real democratization is the only change that will serve the monarchy in the long run. >> i think that, you know, you know it's quite true. we won't have time to-- we have 60 3r0 visions on human rights. we have now to draft the laws, implement this constitution. and we need i think partnership with countries like the united states, europe. we are the only country to have an advanced statute with the european union. we are an open country. but we need to work harder. we need to work, you know. i don't say that morocco is

a paradise for human rights. but the difference maybe with other arab countries, we are doing our work, homework, we are doing it peace three-- peacefully. maybe sometimes slowly t too slowly in my point of view it i addressed the parliament last week and i said that we have to work faster. >> rose: and what was the response? >> i think that the decision and-- will-- we will have two bill of laws and two on equality between men and women. but we need also to work harder on some vulnerable groups, you know. >> rose: like children. >> like children like handicapped persons. they are about 10% in our society, like in all societies in the world. and there is no law for the

handicapped people to guarantee their rights. >> rose: what is the difference in the you can ting-- new king and the former king, his father. >> you know, morocco is the only country which was not osoman occupation. we were-- ottoman occupation. >> we were one of the only countries to be under-- occupation swrechlts monarchy more than 13 years. so the difference maybe is that we are the only arab country which didn't notice under the former king and his majesty, the kind of socialism. we are a free market economy from our independence today. we were and we are a plurallistic country with-- and arabs living peacefully.

we are the only a-- arab country which with krins a jewish-- in our constitution will you notice that we recognize that we are arabs, per pers, jewish, africans, so i think that this continuity in our political history is a fact, you know. the difference maybe between the former king and the king now is that the former king has to face power after the independence with the strong left and huge struggle for power. now i think that we have a young king, really committed to reforms. committed to women equality and also committed to moderate islam which is a huge challenge also now in africa and its arab world.

>> there was this recent book that i read a review of. i think and you help me with the pronunciation. -- >> yes, the cousin. king. >> the cousin, yeah. what did you think of that book? >> you know, i think that it is his personal point of view. i do think that he doesn't answer the question how to reform the arab world. how to reform peacefully. how to guarantee the difference of points of view. you know, secular persons in our societies and islamists. you have, you know, people from different point of view. we k you know, launch civil wars. we can launch civil wars. but the question is how to reform peacefully with the social and economic challenges,. >> rose: whats is the relationship today between

the united states and morocco. >> i think that we have close relationship. they know they are-- that they are working together reforms in these region, peacefully. i think that also the necessary know that morocco is working hard. they are also sometimes, you know, asking us to do more but i think it's weird to do more. i think that we have to more economic partnerships. >> rose: with the united states. >> yeah, we need more-- . >> rose: for the global market. >> we need more investments. we need also partnership in some areas, you know, in human rights. for instance, i think that partnership on the judiciary can be-- . >> rose: if its rule of law is so very important. >> i know, you can't do

economy without independence judiciary. you can't have your rights, you know, without an independent judiciary. and i think the american system can help us a lot. >> by trade, by investment, by -- >> and by training. >> by training and by, you know, agreements on training, for instance, for judges. >> but i'm a bit confused when you say that the people are demanding, you know, a democracy. i assume you are including by that a constitutional monarchy as part of a democratic process? >> you have lots of monarchies in democratic societies. >> rose: like spain. >> in spain, in norway, you know, in moroccan constitution now the only source of laws is the parliament, you know. in the former constitution, the king can, you know,

draft laws. he can't no more do it, you know. so you have an islamic political party, ruling the country. and the king is, you know, is you know accepting the fact, we had real, fair elections more than 3,000 observers from its national democratic constitution, the national republican constitution, from the united states. so you have, you know, i don't want to talk about the other countries. but you can have the iraqian or the syrian yeah, you know, to advance, by killing each other. >> rose: yes. >> we have chosen the other way, to have elections, to have reforms. and you know, with a monarchy, political and independent. >> rose: is part of the reason you are here, not

necessarily at this table but part of the reason you are here is to give a different side of the face of morocco. >> no, because we are preparing the second international world forum on human rights. brazil organized last december the first one. and we are hosting the second one next november. so i have been there to meet people from the international human rights, the american human rights, to invite them. i was also because we have lots of-- we have lots of relationships with the international mechanism of the united nations on human rights, you know, so i met people at the united nations. >> most people say to me who have been victims of human rights violations, that the thing thatses that's most important is to know that someone knows you're there. is that correct? >> you know, we at our national council of human rights we have received

during the last year more than 40,000 letters of complaints of our citizens. the majority of these letters are, have no link with our powers, but it means that moroccans think that human rights are important. that there is an institution which can, you know, talk about them, try to look for redress for them. try to help them. and i think it's quite important, to know that at the international level but also in your country-- your country you can count on some persons, some institutions. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thanks a lot. >> rose: a pleasure to have you here. >> thank as lots. >> rose: for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us on-line@pbs.org and charlie rose.com.

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>> pounding for charlie rose have been provided for the coca-cola company supporting this program since 2002. american express, and charles schwab