welcome to the program tonight from washington. the african summit. a conversation with five presidents. rwanda, senegal, south africa, tanzania, and tunisia. >> there's a perception, and there's reality. the perception of the business world, the global world, the political world on african democracy, on good governance is the wrong perception. because what you see in the media in one, two, or three countries is not what's going on in the rest of the continent. remember that africa is 54 countries in full evolution.

>> we conclude with a conversation with douglas brinkleyly whose new book is called "the nixon tapes, 1971 to 1972". >> he didn't like a lot of people. really, nixon hated the harvard and the yale crowd. i'm always amazed to see how hard scrabble he had it, how he tried to compensate by talking barnyard language or making racial slurs because he thought that would shock people. certainly kennedy told all sorts of off-colored jokes, but they're not on tape. some presidents like ronald reagan didn't go there. >> the african summits and the nixon tapes when we continue. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following.

>> additional funding provided by -- >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia and news services worldwide. >> from our studios in new york city this is charlie rose. >> you have heard in the days of this summit that it is historic, that it can change things. but african leaders are here.

and i want to hear from them in terms of the significance of this conference and what you expect and would you need and how you see what you have been hearing here. >> this conference is significant in the sense that, one, it's the first of its kind. first ever you have a u.s.- africa summit, bringing all african leaders together. because the u.s. has relations with other countries gathered here, we receive development assistance. but the meeting that brings together the u.s. government and the u.s. private sector, this is something unique. and we have a lot of

expectations, because we want to move not only a relationship of a donor and the recipient, but we want to move to the next level now, of investment and faith. and may colleagues can compliment, many of us have been visiting the united states, doing road shows in many towns, investment forums, talk to u.s. businessmen, and we have not been as successful. i think this time, the president of the united states, the vice president, secretary of state, secretary of commerce, encouraging the u.s. business community to take africa seriously. i think this time we will make it. >> i think that our states

africa states are extremely interested in promoting relationship with the united states with the american business community. because if we want to solve social and economic problems, we badly need the support of the united states and the mesh business community. but i must say also that we have to learn from history, and this is the occasion to learn from history. let me think -- let me try to imagine the problem from the perspective of african woman, arrest i will can citizens. for them, of course, it's very important that the figures are better, that there is an improvement of the faith between the united states and africa and so forth. but i think what is most important for the citizens is to improve the quality of life, to get better services, have

education, and so forth. and sometimes, you know, having an important business community doesn't mean automatically that life would improve. for instance, we can see in africa what has been seen in many other countries, widening the gap between rich and poor, pollution and so forth. so we have to have -- to keep this in mind and to be sure that improvement -- the business climate improves and the economic figures and so forth. that's not enough for the african credit 70s. we have to link -- and this is the main lesson that we have to learn from history and the experience of other countries -- we have to link social development, political development, and the economic development. otherwise, we are going to make the same errors that have been made elsewhere. and then i wouldn't say it

would be nothing, because, of course, if we do improve the faith of tens of millions of people, it's important, like what's happened in china, for instance. but that's not enough. the lesson that we have to draw from what happens is that really we have to link social economics. that means social justice. political development. that means democracy, and fighting against corruption, and then the economic development. if we don't link those three factors, what we are going to have is, well, another situation leading to another crisis, leading to another crisis, and we will never end with it. i think that this offers an opportunity for us, as african leaders to interact firstlily with the government -- firstly with the government, and second

with the business community in the united states. that is very important. i also think it came at the right time when africa is, in fact, organizing itself better than before in terms of how economically it is looking at itself, how it is developing necessary things like infrastructure, how it is looking in itself, the trade in africa which puts it in a better position. but also it came at an opportune moment when, as you know. the goal is a very clear instrument of our relationship

is left with one year to elapse, and we're saying we have an opportunity to deal with those issues, to put our views to the united states that would want the extension of a goal so that we could have a better kind of relationship between us. >> i would like very seriously to tell you how much i appreciate the initiative of president obama to call for this meeting between africa and the united states. it's an historical opportunity which should allow us to confirm the change of perspective towards a vision of africa, africa which used to need aid. i'm going to give an example. the magazine "the economist" in

may 2000, its headline was with a picture, of course, a young guy, and it said africa at war, and it said," the hopeless continent." 10 years later the same magazine, the economist, had a title about growth in africa, and it said, a lion in a cage, and the title was, uncaging the lion. so this image, within 10 years, shows you how africa has changed. together, we must modify this structure here. the business community of the united states would feel more at ease, more confident in order to work with the african private sector. first of all, in africa. africa is a huge continent.

there is room for everybody. americans, europeans, chinese, you name it. everybody has its place in africa. it is an africa of over -- a continent over 30 million square kilometers. everything has to be made. roads, railways. there is opportunity for both africans and the rest of the world. africa must no longer be seen as a land of humanitarian emergency or diseases, for instance. even if right now we are facing a terrible epidemic, ebola, but these things will need to be treated. the world must be optimistic towards after i will could. >> people are talking about patterning globally and locally. global and local together, as the best way of creating a

partnership. and i want to add that people also are talking about the growth by continent of africa. even when there are known problems that are talked about. for example, lack of electricity, lack of power. and somebody is saying, imagine what would happen in terms of these growth rates across africa if there was no shortage of power. could you talk about many other things. so through this partnership i think many jobs that exist in africa today, whether it's

technology, business, trade investment, the benefits that come with that, and these jobs being filled, just imagine what is going to be unleashed in terms of growth as well as development. but, of course, we have to be -- there have to be grounds on which growth can translate into development. so each of those in the partnership have responsibilities and roles to play. from the outside, we still to have do more of providing for business, ease of doing business. we have to continue investing in creating rule of law.

we have to continue providing education to our people and the skill. many things, including health, in addition to education. still this growth will continue for many ahead. >> a story that was referenced on the front pages of newspapers around the world is the ebola crisis. there's some concern that is beg expressed loudly of a tipping point. tell me what your fears are. >> right now the epidemic is in west africa. tanzania is in east africa. >> but planes go from --

>> yeah, not only that, but there was an ebola outbreak in the congo, which borders tan is a knee i can't. there was an outbreak in uganda, which borders tanzania. response. that's just in case there is a report 0 of a possible ebb bo la outbreak or ebola affected perp. we do the analysis and evaluation, then confirm it. so we are more taking precautions, just in case.

as rightly said, people travel. >> is there, in any of your judgment, a sense that there is a misconception about africa in terms of specific countries with respect to that? is there something that you think that the business community and the private sector may have a misconception about or badly informed? >> there's a perception, and there's reality. the perception of the business world, the global world, the political world on african democracy, on good governance is the wrong perception. because what you see in the media, in one, two, or three countries is not what's going on in the rest of the continent. remember that africa is 54 countries.

in full evolution. they're all trying on a day-to- day basis to build a long- lasting democracy, organizing transparent elections. that's the roll in africa today. there are exceptions, here, there, two or three cases. this should not be the image that you have of after i will could. and i keep pleading to say that the negative vision that you might have, because in this country or the other there's a problem, it is an unfair vision of africa. the global dynamic in africa is democracy. democracy is installing itself. there are exceptions. that can happen. but africa is a continent where the majority of countries have had its independence not quite 20 years ago. look at the largest of our countries, south after i will could. '91. take all the countries of this

region. kenya, 1963. in less than three years we would like for the country to be complete? it's asking too much. deeply democratic. no less democratic than an american or european but i fully understand the history of each company and the history of each nation. let's be fair towards these people in africa, towards these african countries which are trying to have a democratic process. that's what you should remember. today you have the rule of law in africa. you have press freedom in africa. you have the freedom to create a company, a business. yes, there's corruption. there's corruption everywhere else. and our will is to fight very strongly against corruption. so you have to be optimistic on

africa. you have to start to fight for development. and i call upon american businessmen to come to africa. there's no more risk than anywhere else, no more than other continents. and your real investment is much higher. the ebola virus. let me say how big is my solidarity towards the victims. i'm a neighbor of guinea. i'm almost a neighbor of sierra leone. we are in the crucible, the eye of it. but i will say that ebola is a devastating virus. it is not an african disease. you have to see this virus as a threat against humanity. it is a threat against humanity

because with intercontinental flights, all you need is a flight to the u.s. or to europe so that you have a world crisis, a total crisis. so we have to mobilize the entire community, all the scientists in the world. all the researchers have to work in order to win. just like we did it for the plague, tb, like aids is being vanquished. so it is this solidarity to support the victims. >> i think even through a partnership like this one, provided by the opportunity, africa, we need to continue building our capacity and strengthening our institutions to enable us to avoid dependence that has been there

for too long. but you have to avoid that by building capacity and cooperation and integration, people walking together. so that we are able to own up to our weaknesses, and own up to our solutions and contributing to our success so we can't even tell our story. you find we even depend on others to tell our story. so that's how this has come about. i really think there is not much time to waste, as time goes with africa, in terms of building this consensus, this walking together, this owning up, so that we cooperate and

partner with others, rather than being too dependent on them. so this is an opportunity we have in front of us to leverage this partnership and address that particular program. >> thank you very much indeed. firstlily, i would like to agree with my brothers. let us take ebola as a disease that is affecting humanity. rather than just look at it as an african problem. fortunately i said earlier, africa is organizing itself. even the health organization continentally are working together. that's why we're confident that this time around we are working together to address this problem of ebola. but i must also say there is an unfortunate thing that africa is a project in a particular

way. at times out of perception. even countries that are fighting corruption, the very fact that they are fighting corruption is a story that there's more corruption in those countries. that's a problem you have. africa is organized. we discuss many of these issues together in the au. much of it is far better than 20 years ago. we share everything together. we take resolutions, where we say, let's deal with this challenge that faces us today. i think it is important for people to look at africa and see that africa is changing. there's a good story that is coming out of the continental effort in terms of working

together, understanding our problem. the point of owning up to what in the past could have been mistakes. today i think we stand a better chance to better ourselves. that is why we appreciate this opportunity, because we have been in a position to tell our own story rather than people telling the story for us. >> exactly. >> i spoke at the international press club. there was an event i was invited. one of the things i said is that the africa of today is not the africa of yesterday or the day before yesterday. africa has changed. the african economy is performing better today.

six of the ten fastest growing economies are in africa. the period between 2011 and 2015, it is projected that seven out of the 10 fastest growing economies will be in africa. but why are we there? because of strong -- pursuit of sound economic policy. also, the pursuit of sound political policy. that is, democracy has taken root. government is enshrined. there is stronger commitment now to fight vices in society. corruption, drug trafficking, drug abuse, whatever. it is more respectful of human

rights. there are fewer conflicts on the continent today. when i say this, that does not mean -- except, of course, there are a few hot spots. when you look today what is happening, the conflict areas in africa, they don't compare with the past. so fortunately this is the good story which is not being told. >> i don't think that's true. that's not true, i don't think. i think there is concern about -- >> no, no, but this is the perception. if there is a problem -- so i don't know when is africa going to get out of being perceived, if there is a problem in one country -- africa is a continent. there are 54 countries. they are different in terms of culture, in terms of particular situations. so until we get to a situation

where africa will be seen in the 54 countries that exist, we will not get out of it. >> i have one final question. they said please go to the final question. we are out of time and over time, but you raised the question of security. there is some concern about security. we do read about highly publicized stories, boka haram and 200 children. we know about the respect for boundaries. what do any of you want to say about security in africa today as part of the message you want to convey to this audience here? anyone? >> africa is more secure today than it was many years ago. if i may mention the problem areas, you have some areas

which used to have a huge conflict. now the situation is much better. but al-shabaab has not been eliminated. from time to time they will ignite a bomb here, a bomb there. they have had a problem in the food, nutrition. it's much better now than it was in the past. but the situation is much better now than what it was in the past. >> i'm sorry, we still have problems in africa. we still have huge problem in africa, sudan, where people are starving. there is a terrible situation in sudan. we have a terrle situation in the northern part of mali. africa, of course, is much more secure than before, but we are still facing challenge, an

important challenge on the matter of security, and we have to work together as africa. this is what we're trying to do about the problems of libya, to secure this country together. we have to face the problems, and we have to work together. yes, we have this problem, but we are able to control it, and we are going to control it, just to give the business community what it sees as more security and stability. we reached a stage in africa where almost you could count two problematic areas. i think what has influenced particularly in northern africa has been the thing that affected the countries in the north. but what has become an important fact, we have discussed this as leaders. you have countries that have volunteered to establish an

instrument, a reform instrument, which we are waiting on, in two months' time, by october, we will be launching, so that we have taken the principles of african problems and african solutions. we are now, on the basis of that, taking a decision that are not going to allow any of this in the continent. we are taking this upon ourselves. i think that in itself is an important story that the world should know. >> thank you. [ applause ] >> on behalf of everyone, this audience, i appreciate your enthusiasm. but i especially appreciate the summit on africa that we hear from african leaders, and you have given that to us. and i thank each of you and the president, i'm sure, will convey the same sense of appreciation when he comes. but thank you again.

and thank each of you. richard nixon resigned from the oval office 40 years ago. the watergate scandal has large defined his presidential legacy. a new book captures a candid nixon white house. the tapes are composed of 3,700 hours, meetings between number 1971 and july 1973. douglas brinkley is a co-editor of the book. he is a cbs news contributor. i am pleased to have him back at this table. >> thank you, charlie. >> tell me how this came about, the nixon tapes with you and luke nichtor. >> i was doing a book on tour of duty and john kerry. i was curious, did nixon ever talk about kerry, because kerry was starting to make news, protesting vietnam. and sure enough, luke was starting to do a book, and he

gave me some of the kerry-nixon exchange. later i was working on walter cronkite. luke helped me find hot nixon wanted to squash cronkite. we both are from the town of perriesberg, ohio. we live in the austin, texas area. so we bonded together. we decided, let's go through the tapes, tribe them, see what's relevant. >> what do we see? >> you're looking at a real- time fly on the wall of what it was like to be in the nixon white house from february '71 into early '73 when finally alexander haig pulled the taping system due to watergate. you are seeing this hon clough, he didn't talk a lot about domestic affairs. so some of nixon's liberal achievements, environmental protection after the accident, promoting of affirmative action, endangered species act,

ehrlichman was all over that. kissinger works for nixon, not the other way around. >> and haldeman's role? >> haldeman is the hinchman, always over the boss' shoulder. the one person richard nixon could do business with even if it was devious business, the trust between haldeman and nixon is very real. some people say nixon had no friends except a deep love for his wife pat. haldeman was a loyalist and a friend to nixon. >> i think your friend luke said that transcribing the tape was more art than science. what did you mean? >> by transcribing it you have to get into the rhythm of the voices, and what he did great, some of the ones are when nixon is on the telephone, they're easy to tribe. but he is bug camp david, and aspen lodge and all sorts of bugs everywhere. some people would call it inaudible. but with today's technology, and if you get the ear for the

voices, luke prevailed, knowing nixon's voice is easy and kissinger, but sometimes there's a southern drawcialtion and you don't know whether it's wilbur mills or strom thurmond, then you have to check to see who is in the room. luke actually went to henry kissinger, went through a bunch of these tapes with him to help identify different people that we couldn't figure out who it was speaking. >> the period covered is between february '71 and july '73. that that's correct. and there's more on '73 we'd like to bring out but the big issues of the time are, of course, the vietnam war and nixon's wanting to -- really angry at kennedy and johnson for vietnam and saying, i've inherited this mess. i could be a folk hero if i pull an eisenhower, like ike done korea, and get out. but instead, i'm going to save american honor and use vietnam as a wedge to separate china from the soviet union. and i think the book, more than anything out there, shows this

try angulation between soviet union china and vietnam and how nixon is playing the game of real politick diplomacy. >> and what's the relationship between nixon and kissinger? >> kissinger's real role here is nixon doesn't trust the state department. and kissinger hears that national security, and william rogers is in the book quite a bit movement secretary of state. >> secretary of statement and kissinger can't stand rogers. he is isolating him all the time because dr. kissinger wants to run foreign policy out of the white house, and that feeds into nixon's suspicion of the press, so they do form a great bond, but whenever kissinger leaves the room, nixon sticks the knife in kissinger to haldeman saying you can't trust henry fully. of course, he's jewish, and therefore he is not going to be able to be a fair broker in israel, other that henry likes

to be on tabloids and likes his picture taken too much. at one point kissing goes to -- kissing ergos to russia -- kissinger goest russia, and he said, i had an opportunity for women. the government was throwing prostitutes basically at me, and i said no way, no, i'm not going to buy into that old trick of spying or diplomacy. there's some humor in the book and also way too much bigotry. >> anti-semitism? >> it rains anti-semitism. nixon saw jewish americans as being the liberal press. he wanted to go after the "new york times" and news week and he always thought it was a kabal against him. with that said nixon was very pro-israel. he thought the israelis were

tough kind of conservative fighting jewish people. what he didn't like was the liberal jewish establishment of the 1960's. >> in the united states some is. >> in the united states that was becoming very anti-war. >> the movement to china, the opening to china, nixon, does he deserve the creditb a, he was president, and therefore it wouldn't have happened without him? did he only nature the idea? >> i think we have to give him the credit. i say that because you can listen to the tapes and how he is making the chess game worse. i will say this about nixon. i just said some hard things about him. he was a great student of foreign affairs. there is a professor gelman who will be coming out soon with a book showing how involved he was with tiefn hoar foreign -- the eisenhower foreign policy. >> even though some say it took a week to find a contribution he had made.

>> yes. >> and ike wouldn't endorse him but thingson became a great student of it. with china he did not like russia, nixon. he thought they were doctrine heir to to tal terrorism. in in fact today in china nixon is a folk hero. on the tapes you will not hear nixon denigrate the chinese people. he almost worships mau. >> he had a certain contempt for john kennedy? >> yes. i think they were friends early on but he got -- >> congressmen. >> friends as congressmen, but by 1960 when nixon loses, particularly the fact that kennedy, the supposed chicago vote, you know, there was a close election, but what he really dislikes is the mythology of camelot. ted soren son and the selling of it.

what he was envious about is they succeeded. america thought of kennedy as profiles in courage, cuban missile crisis, berlin wall, and told them off, and nixon said, i want what kennedy had. i want to be seen as having courage and guts. and kissinger at one point says, well, you have competence. and nixon flares up, competence! anybody can be competent. the public needs to see me as a man of courage. >> here's the tape. nixon his admiration and disgust for john f. kennedy. >> kennedy was told if personal, he treated his staff like dogs, particularly the secretaries. he had no -- he was not a leak man. did read all the things. his staff created the impression of nice to people.

didn't reads lots of book. that was a pure creation of mythology. we have created no mythology. >> he says he didn't read. >> that's right. and nixon was a big reader on history. in fact, nixon often on the tapes will talk about, you know, greeks and romans, and in stick, winston churchill. i was amazed often how much world war ii meant, constantly saying, why can't we win in slight ma'am? look what we done the battle of the bulge. why can't we win up there? and he was always angry at the air force that they were lazy, they didn't want to bomb, they didn't want to win. a lot of tension between nixon and the pentagon in this book. >> but, i mean, he -- with respect to his military advisers did he respect them, or was it disrespect? >> i think there's some disrespect largely, because he doesn't feel they're wanting to win the war enough. he feels that the pentagon has fatigue of vietnam, and that he wand to come in and increase

bombing. he couldn't stand when they said a bombing mission had been canceled because of bad weather. nixon would be, what bad weather? we're america. he wanted to win the war more than anybody else. but even if he lost and he thought he mise lose vietnam, he thought it would show china that he's so mad, nixon is a mad man, he would even tell kissinger, let them thing i'm a madman. that tells the chinese, don't mess with taiwan, don't mess with hong kong, don't mess with japan, don't mess with america's al thriens pacific. >> he's not an introspective man, or is he? >> not very introspective at all, charlie e. he's a very well read man, very intelligent, maybe brilliant, but he always says the wrong thing to people at a wrong time. at a funeral where he tries to say the right thing he often puts his foot in his mouth. there are moments where you will see the warmth of nixon.

there's one when he calls joe biden when he lost his wife and child in an automobile accident. >> he was 29 years old, just been elected to the senate. >> exactly. nixon calls him. it's very moving to talk about how you are going to have to pick yourself up. but interestingly he tells biden, your wife who is now gone at least got to see vick tree, got to see you win. nixon could forgive a lot of politicians if they were winners. he loved politics as a hard ball blood sport. he was willing to smear people because he felt people were smearing him and that was just the game. hence when he resigned 40 years ago he gave the famous theodore roosevelt, man in the arena, about better to be fighting with the grim and dust and be one of those. >> he belongs to those in the arena. >> exactly. >> he's not the first president to tape. john kennedy taped, lyndon johnson taped, jack kennedy did some taping.

>> and fdr did a little. fdr's tapes helped his reputation. kennedy's taping, selective taping the, has helped john f. kennedy because we now can study how kennedy nav gated through the cuban missile crisis. >> very impressive. after the bay of pigs. >> after the bay of pigs he started it. and then johnson mixed but largely positive, because what we find from the johnson tapes is his real care about the important people. >> we see that in the battle for civil rights. >> absolutely. and also his doubts about vietnam. >> but those, charlie, were not voice activated. and the difference is, when nixon puts this in -- remember, neil armstrong goes to the moon in august '69. all this good stuff he thinks is happening. he feels that history is being lost. so his big mistake was buying into that voice activated taping system because it is not selective, it's not -- it's everything, and loose mics pick up all sorts of things. >> i assume he would select the good and destroy the bad.

>> he did. you will never remember this, but i came to your show many years ago as a kind of a friend of hunter thompson. >> yeah. and hunter -- >> i remember everything about that. >> he stole the flower. but hunter wrote, in fear and loathing, the campaign trail, that nixon was so sure he was going to win, his tapes that when the supreme court voted he thought it was going to be a landslide, the supreme court was going to give nixon the tapes. instead, hunter has -- >> exactly the opposite. >> ziegler he has going to a beach going, the verdict is in, 8-0, and nixon goes,g i knew we'd get the bastards. and ziegler goes, no, ain't nothing that way. the point was nixon thought that these were his. >> but after that, could he have destroyed them after that moment? >> i would have recommended it. henry kissinger recommended it. somebody like nelson rockefeller recommended it. >> they all said to him, burn the tapes. >> get rid of this quick!

>> even after the court decision he could have done it. >>ly well, it would have been a big controversy but we wouldn't be having all of these bad, dark moments. >> would he have survived? >> i don't know, but he didn't survive by keeping them, and it hurts him more in history. i thought he thought it would be the grist for his post- presidency. as you know, charlie, he wrote some pretty good books about the soviet union and all. it's just that voice activated kills you, because of the sound bites. >> after he came back to new york he used to have this salon in which people would go out to new jersey and have dinner with hit. he would give a kind of tour of the world on foreign policy. >> he, did and monica crowley ended up beg his assistal. she wrote a couple of good books. >> what do you think of reagan? >> i have worked on reagan's diary. reagan looks like a giant compared to nixon because reagan knew enough to be like a

macy's float parade and stay over all of the noise. reagan didn't read his bad press. nixon is stooge and seithing. the press is a reality, and nixon wants to destroy them. the smart presidents, john kennedy, rose veltd, reagan -- >> they tried to seduce the press. >> or at least don't get hate trined your heart. that's what does nixon in. he turned so many journalists against him. >> chris matthews. who wrote a book about jack kennedy said, i think nixon didn't understand that he's one of those people that would get caught, like ted kennedy gets caught. some people get away with everything, some people get caught. nixon led his life as if he wasn't going to get caught, and he did. i don't know what to make of

that. >> grandiosity. i think that's a point of nixon's sense of grandiosity and entitlement. nixon hated the harvard and yale crowd. i'm always amazed how he tried to compensate by being tough, talking barnyard language or making racial slurs because he thought that would shock people, and would you control the room with that kind of language. certainly kennedy told all sorts of off-colored jokes, but they're not on tape. some presidents, like ronald reagan, just didn't go there. reagan told g or pg jokes. nixon would go -- >> over and over. >> yes, over and over. but reagan is part of this book, too, because he calls in as governor and talks to nixon. so we're now able to hear what nixon's advice was -- i mean, what reagan's advice was to nixon. he was very angry about china. reagan thought we had to stand by taiwan at all cost.

>> and never give up the panama canal. >> anybody reading this on the right will say, boy, that's the reagan i like. nixon is telling people, the liberals don't know if they lose me they're going to get a revolution of right-wingers, that i'm the guy holding the line, and that the liberals should be loving me and liking me. instead, they can't stand me. but beyond me and the republican party it is going to be only to the right. >> he was right about that. >> ronald reagan. >> reagan was there, and today's modern republican party. reagan, some people will call nixon one of the last new dealers. he still believed government could do things. >> here's ronald reagan in a phone call to nixon to express his disgust with tu n's vote to admit china and ex pell taiwan. here it is. >> well, that was a bad vote, wasn't it. >> well, i want to tell you -- >> we worked our tails off, i must say. >> i know. i was just sick. >> '54 to '59.

i just finished a meeting with ted agnes. he is back from greece and turkey, both of whom we got, incidentally. we didn't get iran, though. damn it. you figure there's the shah, we've done all the things for hit. and these african country, they're the ones i must say was disappointing. >> mr. president, the reason i called was, i know it's -- it is not easy to give a suggestion or advice to the president of the united states. but i just feel that -- i feel so strongly that we can't, and in view of '72, we can't just sit and take this and continue as if nothing had happened. and i had a suggestion for an action that i would like to be so presumptuous as to suggest. my every instinct says get the hell out of that kangaroo court and let it sink, but i know

that's very -- that would be extremely difficult and not the thing to do. but it has occurred to me that the united states -- i just -- the people, i just know, first of all, they don't like the u.n. to begin w. >> that's right. >> so there you go. >> and it goes on there where he's suggesting that george herbert walker bush at the u.n. gets pulled as the ambassador and just tell the u.n. we're not giving an ambassador to the united nations, we're just going to sit and not vote on anything and listen. so we're not officially pulling vought tu n, but we're not going to partake in what reagan thought the united nations was a kangaroo court because of their treatment of taiwan. >> what do you think of this new poll that suggests that president obama is a worst president than president nixon? >> i think you will see in the long game of history obama being ranked higher than richard nixon. i say that because presidents tend to get an upward revision. gerald ford has gotten a great

one. george 41 is going way up in the polls. but nixon gets stuck toward the bottom because of watergate, obstruction of justice, abuse of power. stanley cutler has a whole book on that. and the racial slurs. the nixons talking about people of india, that they were dirt and all of this. it's very hard in a sound bite of america to be floating that stuff and rise to high. obama has been very cautious. he doesn't leave a lot of sloppy language on the table. obama had, i think, a very fine personal life. so i think you will see -- and obama being an historic first. he may not be seen as a great president, but i don't think he is going to be down there by james buchanan and richard nixon. >> of all the people you have written about who due admire the most? >> thank you for scsmght theodore roosevelt and franklin roosevelt, both of them, because they put public service in america first always. they always cared about this country so deeply, and they --

tr was a little more conservative than fdr but their pragmatism and their love of the land. and both t.r. and fdr loved the rivers, the lakes. they thought in order to love america you had to be a custodian of it. >> i knew that about t.r. i didn't know that about fdr. >> he planted for the civilian conservation corps a billion trees. olympics, kings canyon, all of our waterfowl was shot out, and fdr created bird flyways and our first national seashore, cape hatteras. the song america the beautiful, that was fdr. he really -- both of that family, i think america owes a lot. ken burns is doing a documentary on the roosevelts this fall. >> i have seen it. i mean, i have talked to him about it. there's also this -- who was the smartest? >> smartest in the nixon tapes? >> no, of all the people that have occupied that you know about, and would historians agree on one person? >> just sheer brain power.

>> sheer brain power, i would go with, myself, theodore roosevelt and thomas jefferson, george washington in his own way. but there are only a few intellectual presidents. >> fdr was not that. >> no, he was not that. >> i guess it was -- >> jimmy carter was smart. very smart man. >> clifton, clark clifford used to say he was the smartest president. he worked for truman. jimmy carter was smart. >> nixon was very smart. kennedy, not backish smart like you would think, but, look, it's not all a about intelligent. >> i don't know son? >> johnson wasn't as well read. >> no. >> but when he did read something, it meant something. there's a story when john stein beck goes and visits with lbj. and he loves stein beck, johnson, the land, the people, that kind of thing. but i go with jefferson and theodore roosevelt as the most literate of our presidents.

>> including well read. >> yes. >> the back is edited by douglas brinkley. thank you, a pleasure. >> thanks, charlie. >> thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> for more about this program visit us on-line at pbs.org and charlierose.com.

>> on the next char lee rose a conversation with james cameron, the film director, about his trip to the ultimate depths of the ocean. >> release, release, release! >> see ya. >> i think my heart rate is up a little bit at the moment that i tell them to release the sub. >> deep sea challenger, do you copy, over? >> deep sea challenger, do you copy, over? >> you're down at 27,000 feet and one system goes, then

another system goes, then another system, and pretty soon you realize you're in this kind of dead metal coffin, and if the weights don't come off, you're toast. >> funding for charlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 2002. american express. and charles schwab. additional funding provided by -- and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. worldwide. >> you

man: it's like holy mother of comfort food.ion. kastner: throw it down. it's noodle crack. patel: you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. crowell: okay, i'm the bacon guy. man: oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. man #2: it just completely blew my mind. woman: it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. sbrocco: oh, please. i want the dessert first! [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait.