>> rose: welcome to the program strkts end of summer and we're looking at some of the best moments of the past year. tonight an encore presentation with mandy pa tin kin. >> you don't get to pick and choose. you pick and choose everything. >> it all shapes you. >> but when i think back, you know how we are as human beings, all these wonderful things happen every second of our life. we just go on, we ignore the fact that we breathe. and all these things are going on. and then one little tiny thread happens. you can hardly see it, just some little negative thing and you go tumbling down. >> mandy patinkin the star of homeland when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the followingal funding for charlie rose is

provided by the following: >> there's a saying around here: you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look. >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

mandy patinkin is here, he is an emmy and tony award-winning acker, he is one extraordinary acker, he stars in the showtime series homeland as you know. as you also know his character sol barenson a cia direct are and the show some say moral center, here is a look at his performance.

sol. >> his iconic roll in the princess bride has gained cult status. >> you killed my father, prepare to die. >> he is also a broadway veteran of more than 30 years an a noted interpreter of stephen sondheim, i'm enormously pleased to have mandy patinkin back at this table, welcome. >> thank you, charlie. >> you are just back from australia. >> yes. >> rose: doing what?

>> i was doing a series of concerts there with my dear friend nathan gunn, the wonderful, glorious opera singer who just started rehearsals today at the met for magic flute. and we did three concerts in australia, sydney, brisbon and melbourne and then went to automaticland and did one there. and it was fascinating. i thought i was exhausted like i had never been exhausted before. between traveling where we had, i had to go to morocco to film some stuff and to l.a. for some family. i said to pie wife, i said oh my god, honey, will i get through the first show. i just don't know. and it was one of those experiences, i thought i was plug mood a nuclear reacter ba being with faithan out there the sound of his voice was like being in one of those waterfalls that just bash on to your head and shoulders, just drench you in joy and electricity. and then being with him is fun. and i love it more than anything. just going out there. >> rose: singing is the first love. >> it is my first love, absolutely. if you told me i could only

do one thing and i had to choose, i would choose a live concert venue with the audience. there's nothing like it. the reservoir of material is endless. i never leave for the theatre without watching the news that moment, whatever i can grab. because it informs how we all listen to what's happening out there. songs that become classics that you want to hear over and over again, they're usually written with such simplicity that they can reflect every moment of our lives whether they be joyous or terrifying. you take a song like over the rainbow where it begins with when all the world is a hopeless jumble and the raindrops tumble all around, heaven opens a magic lane, when all the clouds darken up the sky, where there is a rainbow highway to be found leading from your window paen, just a step beyond the sun, i forget. >> i forgot the last part. >> i wasn't singing it when i say it. >> just as you say that i was saying how do you remember. >> well, i-- . >> rose: so much. >> every day i work out and

i either take a long walk for an hour and a half or i go to the gym. and i get on an elliptical and i run a concert. and i run it fast so i always stand next to someone that has ear phones or so they done hear me. and i run about an hour and 45 minutes worth of material. because i got about 10, 13 hours of lyric in my head that i don't want to lose. so i just keep rolling it over and over. >> rose: you keep doing it all the time. >> it's there. >> i also think it's the best thing i got a shot trying to ward off alzheimer, they say learning something every day is new, and it's also interesting. when i have been away from learning for a while, i find it very difficult. and then if i start homeland again and all of a sudden the dialogue starts coming it will be a little rough in the beginning and all of a sudden my brain clicks in and i start learning quicker and quick are. i'm con advanced it's similar to other muscles. the brain is like, you build new cells. >> we learn more about that every day. >> and you're absolutely right. >> i'm positive. i've experienced it. there's also something you do which is-- which i found wonderful.

just help me understand it because i have forgotten about it. you recite the names of people in your mind that you loved who are dead. >> yes. >> so that you, well, my-- my favorite line of anything i've ever heard was written by oscar hammerstein, for the musical carousel. i don't know where he got it but you also heard it in other forms. and the line is, as long as there's one person on earth who remembers you, it isn't over. so it is part of a meditation i do before i go in front of a camera, before every-- one of these 10, 15 meditations, i say outloud, every person's name that i knew who's passed on. and it's my way of keeping them not only alive but i, you know, what i love is, part of what i love about your studio is what i love about being on stage. i'm looking at black velure drapes all around, so when i look into the darkness, i

can see everything. there is nothing that can't be there. including all of those solos and forces. so it's very powerful to me. and i believe people have asked me do you believe in god, are you reliss-- religious on this or that. i believe in einstein and that energy never dies. >> have you been on stage doing all the things that are you so renowned for among your friends? mandy the conversationalist, mandy who has some take on the way the world works and the way human beings work. have you ever that to the stage and done a kind of one man show? >> this is what i do when i do my concerts. this is what i just did with nathan gunn in australia. >> so you talk about life as well as singing. >> i do different concerts. when i do my solo concerts or my show with nathan it's less structured or formallized. when i do it with patty it's more scripted. there is one little section that is more free form. the more free form which is the basic concert that i do which is called dress casual which is just different all the time, a spor gas board

of material, but i also say what hits me. recently i was in australia and it was the day before thanksgiving and nathan said something about thanksgiving. and it just hit me. and i went thanksgiving, way, yash i, it's fascinating. here we are in a country that actually said they were sorry to the native people. and why can't we say that in our country. how come we can't say we're sorry. how come, we should give them the meal for thanksgiving, not feed ourselves. we should feed the native americans and this -- >> an when some president or another, decides we should apologize for something, that's terrible that happened, you hear people don't apologize for america. that becomes the accusation in the political arena. you're apologizing for something as if, you know -- >> it seems like that's a crime. i actually, there's a part of it i find understandable. i done think there's great value in saying you're score

over and over again. i do think there's great value in saying it at least once. and to recognize it. and but at the end of the day, change your behaviour is really what i think is the ball game. change your behaviour. kuz words are cheap. actions are everything. my brother-in-law is a zen buddhist monk in upstate new york. and he said a phrase to me once that i just love. which is our actions are the ground we walk on. >> rose: here about this, my friend david brooks, you know, at the time that everybody was saying you've got to find yourself, david brooks said no, that's not right. what you have to do is find something larger than self so you can lose yourself. lose yourself in religion; lose yourself in the pursuit of an obsession, to pursue, to do something. do something that's not about who i am.

>> yes, i think the rescue or what's that thing you throw out on a boat that's circular and it says, you know, the name of the ship, the lifesavering raft, when you throw that out, that rescue you when it's to the but. get your face and your head and your mind out of your own naval and pay attention to someone else. pay attention to your wife, to your children, to your coworker. when i'm working, i work so hard to prepare for one reason, so that when i'm out there in front of the audience or in front of the camera with the other actor, that i can forget about everything. mill os foreman said to me one day when we were doing ragtime one time, he said mandy could could, he told me to hold a hat this way and i then i didn't. and would take, and i would stap, he say mandy mandy what is the problem, what is the problem. i said well you told me to do this. and miroslav told me to do. he said mandy, everybody is

going to tell you everything. listen them and then forget about it! >> rose: yes. >> forget about it. and i-- i think, you know, i forgot what the question was. >> losing yourself in something that is larger than you. rather than finding yourself what you need to do is lose yourself in something bigger and greater than you, it could be family, it could be your child t could be a thousand different things. >> exactly, yes. and the key i think is what i was trying to say earlier, so you do all that homework. so you can forget about it. >> so now i can be there with the other actor. i can be there with the audience and be in the moment. so i can see not the words i learned, but what's in your heart whrx what is the temperature of your feeling of your nature, of your tone. so when these people go to places where they're having wars and finally a general has the good sense to sit and have a cup of tea. and he realizes it changes the character and the temperature of the whole room. and. >> you break bread and have a cup of tea with a human being, everything's different. we are no longer enemies. we're having tea.

>> we are all the same when you open us up. we believe, we die, we care about kids. >> it's not one and one or two it's what is in between. then remind me later about what is between the white and black notes. >> yeah. >> rose: now is it true in preparing for sol that you went down and talked to some cia people and the thing that unlocked something for you was when either brennan or someone else, you're looking where do i hang sol, i think. that was your question. and you are talking to these guyance when he talked about family. >> yes. >> you got it. >> yes. >> what did you get? >> well, brenon just echoed what i had found earlier. i had read all the books. i asked alex and howard when i was preparing what i can read. i had this window of opportunity to prepare. so i read all of these books, many of them by talking heads of the cia, most disgruntled by the cia, going on and on and they really can't tell you

anything that is going on or happened anyway. it's all corb never terms of the cia for what they put out there anyway so i'm looking for that hook to hang my heart on, you know, for what is that heartbeat of that human being i'm going to play. and i went down. i found, they called spooks, you the know guys who are the real guys. gi down to langley and find this guy who they hook me up with who is supposedly the head of the middle east and go down there. we're talking and everything and he's telling me he's this, and that and i'm not believing a word of it. i'm not saying don't schmooze a schmoozer, come on, man, i'm in the same game, it's just we're different ends. i'm paid to lie, you're paid to lie, you know, it's just how good we do it, and we have to make believe we believe it. so i said come on. and at one point he says, and i'm not getting what i need. and he mentioned something about his kids and daughters. i said daughters, where are your kids, how old are they. one is a graduate, one is almost graduating, they're here, really, can i come over? and the kids come over. and the girls sit down.

and the nickel dropped. and at that moment i realized this was all about family. the girls were talking about what it was like growing up in these embassies, usually, around the world, being with other people and fathers and parents who were involved with the cia. just what life was like. and at that moment i actually learned it from doing inson, for the enemy of the people with gerald freedman who was my mentor and my teacher. and all these complicated rich ideas that the great classics all hold like ison so, complicated you could be overwhelmed in this sea of ideas. and then gerry one day said about these two brothers on this journey in this place, he said it's a play about family. it's really a play about family. you know, as we go through this ride in our lives, i think we find a few songs that are the ones we like to sing. and triggers. that are-- they're the ones in our pocket. they're the ones we are always looking for, whoever we are. they're not the same, it is who you are, it's your fingerprint. and the family one is the

game for me. i loved it so. and all the dimensions of it, when it works, when it doesn't, when we break it, when we near ture it, when we ignore it, when we wish for it. >> so it's about the american family, it's about the family of sol and carie, it's about the family of brody and his family. it's about the family of you, sol and his wife. >> the cia. >> rose: . >> the humanity and the populous of the united states of america and the humanity of the world at large. the world community as a family. and how we listen each other. to me that's the nervous system of the whole piece, whether or not we are listening to each other. >> but you have as we talk and look at the sort of-- at the arc of your own professional life. >> yes. >> and personal life. >> yes. >> i mean dow sometimes say dammit, i didn't listen and you know you have made a mistake. >> yes, sir. >> those are the most painful moments of my life.

and i don't know who i would be without those moments as well. so --. >> rose: you mean they're shaping influences. >> yes. you don't get to pick and choose your mistakes or your successes. you pick and choose everything. >> it all shapes you. >> but when i think back on the most-- you know, how we are as human beings, all these wonderful things happen every second of our life. we go on, we ignore them. we ignore the fact that we breathe. and all these things are going on. and then one little tiny thread happens. you can hardly see it, just some little negative thing and you go tumbling down. it takes a mountain to build you back up but a thread to knock you down. it's mishoogi, you know. and so but yeah, so boy, those mistakes, i refer to them as mistakes, troubles, those errors, those moments when i didn't listen myself. i paid for that. >> rose: of all those what stands highest? >> not letting my father

know that he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and listening to my elders, his two sisters, the doctor and family who said for various reasons, daddy would freak out if he knew this in 1972 before cancer became more discussable. and so we have to lie to him. and tell daddy that he has hepatitis instead of pancreatic cancer. and that 18-year-old mandy has been recovering from that lie all the rest of his life by needing too much truth. >> rose: people always want to know, don't they? >> you think he wanted to know? >> yes, i think-- . >> rose: i do too. >> i think so. you know, i'm a jewish buddhist. they call me a jew bu.

and i lover them both. i love what they both have to offer. >> rose: what does buddhism bring. >> i think brings all the best parts of all religions, i think it is a melting pot for me of all religions. it's also a practice. i love the word practice, how do you get to carnegie hall, you practice. how do you get to the carnegie hall of your soul, of your life, how do you get to the concert hall where you make the best music inside your house, you practice. how do you practice? you change your behaviour. every day, it's very difficult and you constantly are falling down and you have to constantly try to change it again. and what i love about the practice is you sit and you meditate and you try to simply do nothing but listen the sound of your breath and not have a thought. and the teacher up at month certificatei had a beautiful saying he once said to me. he said of all the creatures in the universe, the only one from the house fly to the rye non-- rye those russ, they all rest in a waking state except man.

mankind is the only one that doesn't rest while he's awake. and we were talking earlier, taking that little five minute nap. >> rose: the power of the nap. >> just take, you can liss rat-- literally feel the fat agency leaving you as you just let it go. >> yeah. >> . >> rose: when i go to bed, i hit the pillow and i'm sleep in a minute. >> yeah. and our brains are cellular material that are no different than your muscles, so if you take a weight and lift it "x" amount of times you have no trouble and by the 20th you can hardly do it and by ot 30th you can't do it you put it down, you wait a minute, you can do another 20. >> exactly right. >> rose: so let me talk about this. homeland too, bring up some of these other things. did you appreciate what it was when you first saw it? and what was it for you? >> sol. >> well, i got the phone call on my birthday, said you're going get an offer tomorrow morning. read this. i read it and i knew the pedestrian i grew of the

writers. i knew it-- pedigree of the writers, i knew it was written extraordinarily well and i knew claire was involved and i knew her gifts. i gave it to my wife who is the smartest person i know. and one other friend. i said tell me if i'm wrong, but i think this has the potential to unravel as a slow onion peel and never stop because to me, it was a mirror as shakespeare says, to ourselves, our country and our world at large. both on the family nucleus, and every metaphor that springs from. and they agreed with me. >> and then i went to work to do the pilot. you never know, it's show business. you make this pilot. maybe i'll never see anybody again, buoy bye, it's got to go. it gets picked up, and we arrive to do the first episodes of the season. nobody's seen it. each episode is coming in. and they're extraordinary.

and no one talks about it. i mean make up trailer, everyone, none on the-- search vaeding, no one is talking about it. and -- >> because they don't want to jinx it or because -- >> i think kuz you don't want to jinx it. but also it was so wonderful that my biggest concern was it's too good. when things are this good, sometimes they want something a little dumber. >> right. >> i mean tracy who is now in our show, he says this is really television for grown-ups. he said this is really smart, smart television. tracy is one of the most gifted people we have on the planet. and so the joy was, you didn't want to break it we would have wonderful dinners together as a company. we just had joyous time. but i had been around awhile. i knew this doesn't come every day. and my soul was telling me i want every second of this. i don't care whether we're here 15, 16, 17 hours. i don't want the day to end

because you don't get days like this. you don't get material like this. you don't get other actors in a company like this ef row day. you don't get writers in the wroir's room like this and you don't get a crew like we have every day. everything doesn't always come together like that and it's going to come to an end because it all ends. and i don't want it to happen too soon. and then the day comes when we're about five or six shows in the can, and the first show comes out. and i use the analogy that it's like meeting its love of your life, you know how you feel about that love. but you bring them home to the family. and then you don't know whether the family is going to respond. and the family feels the same way you do. and when the culture, when the world populous embrace the peace the way we were privately in that, you know, don't break it, it was unbelievably moving and humbling. and gratitude is beyond, there is no word to express how thrilled i am, was and continue to be to be a part of this. >> and did you in preparation go watch the israeli series?

>> no. i certainly heard about it. i had heard that there were differences, changes. but in the second year we filmed part of the show, we were there for about a month in israel. they showed us a billation because it was the premier of the first show of their second season, that gideon raft created. and so we saw this compilation the first year. and then the first show of the second year it was very, it wasn't that similar to ours. the basic premise. >> just the inspiration. >> it was much more psychologically oriented without the ticking bomb 24 aspect of the edge of your seat it was a much more psychologically involved. there was a scene that gideon wrote in filmed in that first episode, following a little boy there this building who's witnessing something happen to his father. and the time they take. and the time they take with homeland, even my wife and i were catching up on an

episode because i like to see, and she just says catherine turned to me again and said the time they're taking. claire had sat down with dam onin a room, you know, and they hadn't beening to for a while. they said over the air so i'm to the giving anything away. and before anything was said, alex and her glorious editors wait. they let life happen. they know it's not just about the words. they know it's just about silence and breathing and time. time, you know, you were saying earlier, i had a thought, i didn't want to let it go. i just lost the dearest person in my life. my cousin marvin. i'm on this planet because of marvin. i breathe because of ma mar-- marvin. i got married because of marvin and daryl, his wonderful wife, my cousin. and i had children because of marvin. >> rose: who was marvin. >> marvin was my cousin. he was a lawyer who changed the disability laws in california. never raised his voice except one time, we pull

mood a parking lot for a chinese restaurant and a little old lady pulled into a disabled space and she didn't have a disabled plate or a sticker. and she shouldn't have been there. i thought the sky was going to fall. i never saw marvin lose it. and i loved him nor it. but he was also the most beautiful soul i ever knew. and daryl has had alzheimer for a number of years so we've watched that happen. and all of a sudden in january of last year he got four stage lung cancer and we got him a secretary opinion and he got chem therapy and he turned around and we thought the miracle was happening and he would be here forever and having fun and playing golf and coming back to life. and then, you know, boom, i literally arrived in morocco to film a scene and as i arrived they called me and said it's happening. and so i film, and then i get on an airplane, fly 25 hours. we land in l.a. and i got there, my wife calls and said he left. he left an hour before you touched down. and i come over to the house, and the family's there. this is my family, my children were there.

his children were there. and this my family. and he had a smile on his face, lying in the bed before they had taken him away. but katherine said but he's not there and i said i know, he's everywhere. you asked me about death and you're talking about your mom. i'm not a fan of death. in buddhism they say embrace suffering, you know, be aware of it. learn to let go. to hell with it. i can't stand it. i don't think there's anything good about death. i hate it i hate it. i think it's the true flaw in the whole system. >> so you're dylan thomas, rage, rage, rage. >> what's good about it. why shouldn't you get to be here forever. why shouldn't every one of our loved ones be here forever. i don't want people suffering, god knows. i want everybody to have fun. have fun, that's-- when my buddy mark left this planet, he waited and stay add live to hold katherine and my hand and he looked at us before that mohr phone kicked in and he said have fun. >> that's what he said, have

fun. >> and try it, you know, it's not so easy, you know. you get just so many sunrises and sunsets, and you waste one, you don't get it back. >> rose: exactly. >> you can't go, it's not like credit card where you get money back. it's gone. now what we spoke about earlier, though, because it's complicated. it's not so simple that i hate death, i love death, suffering, et cetera. i also believe because i said i believed in einstein that energy never dies. so that my belief in god in the way it works for me, how i connect and connect is the word that i love in life, but how i connect is i believe i can breathe in abraham and moses and jesus and buddha and marvin and my father. that that energy isn't what you and i are familiar with. we're familiar with at home. but this energy that we're-- that every cell is made up of is morphed into some other form. so the possibility of breathing it in which is why i love meditating because you're just breathing. and if you say these people's names and if you are's lonely or scared or in the dark, there's a possible that they may be with you. >> now take that, what you and i believe and what you

believe and articulate a thousand times better than i do. and put it in sol. here's a man who lives in i in a world where it's near us. and everything is what is not. and part of it is a a lie an nobody knows exactlies what awe true. and how do you see this extraordinary ideas you have about life. and this character. >> yes. >> who you must like. >> i love him. >> rose: you love him. >> i love him because he's filled with hope and optimism. he will do anything to meet his wishes and desires for humanity, even take life. >> yes, sir, he will. >> on both sides, will give life and take life. >> yes, he will. and he has on his desk, the words from the torah that say, which i love from the torah, if you take one life, it's as though you have destroyed it the entire world. and if you save one life it's as though you have saved the entire world. but he's a realist, and practical, and understanding that-- . >> rose: but is he the-- dot

ends justify the means? >> is he the ends justify the means? he hopes to be that person. that's why he is devoted tocarey mathison, his figure difficult child. and the reason that relationship is so powerful is that when he found her by accident, or however he found her, let's say at yale, recruiting. and he met her and his sensibilities where this is a gifted human being, whether she has a sixth sense or not, she has a passion and a compassion and a sensitivity toward humanity. and her other gifts and senses are so acute that what he fails to do before the end of his lifetime like let's say create peace in the middle east, for one thing. let's say change the world for the better in every possible way you can imagine she is the best shot he's ever found on this planet to carry on his dream. which we hope for all our children to do. >> rose: okay, so then it maybe something that you got to really be machiavellian to understand, but he sits in front and gives her up in front of a congressional testimony. >> that's a planned.

>> you've been very, very brave. once should haven't got-- you should have got enemy out of the hospital, sol, you shouldn't have left me in there. >> it's almost over. >> no, it's too hard. i condition keep going. >> yes, you can. yes, you can. >> rose: see that's what is interesting about the kind of thing you can do with something like homeland. it can be, where does the game end, and where is reality. how do you understand what is perceived to be is a means to get to the enand not the reality of itself. >> but we've lost patients also in our society. these writers created this brilliant scheme.

and i had heard, i don't read everything but i had heard people were imparkt. and all of a sudden by the fourth episode of this season they find out this brilliant scheme that alex and our extraordinary writers have createdment you have to be patient in this world, you know, it's like reading a novel watching homeland. you have to go through learning who these characters are, learning certain situations and all of a sudden something happens. and then you go through some more and something else. i mean just like our life for god sake. you can't handle it if it's always at that pace, you're going to burn out, that phrase burnout, it's real. i remember, oh, god, you know. >> rose: what? >> i remember once when i was in college everybody was dropping acid. and i thought well i'm going to be an acter. i better experience this. so you could say to me so did you kill somebody, you are going to kill somebody if you are in hamlet. i said no, but i did drop acid once. i was a jewish prince so i make sure someone stased it first. we go up and we have a big meal and we drop this acid.

my heart is going so fast, i finally understood the word burnout, and the next morning i'm on a plane next to art link letter whose daughter, you know h a tragic end from acid. and i thought, and i never touched another drug, i took one tab that was it. but i think it did enough damage. >> but it's just wild. >> rose: okay, let me come back to sol. claire has been here. and and so has dam on, lewis, has been here talking about the character. i want to make sure we can understand who sol is from you. >> you know-- . >> rose: and where, because you don't want to know what two episodes happen to some you want to experience it as you ago it. >> yes, you don't tell-- mandy didn't know what is going to happen five seconds from now. i don't know the next question you are going to ask me, so fine,. >> so good, that's the fun of life. so why should sol know it you say to me you have to know the lines. of course, so i will have

seven days or so before so i can learn it. but i thought what the writers, what alex wrote not that long ago and i think the 8th ep sowed or 9th episode is a scene with claire in the hospital. i am not going to quote it exactly. but i was exposing the information about its plan to-- what's going to go on in iran. and i was clarifying this whole plot to her. and there was this beautiful speech when you know she said how do you know this going to be able to happen. and he said well something will happen. but the possibility of when two countries haven't spoken --. >> haven't communicated for over 30 years, except through terrorist actions and threats. and sit down and talk -- >> the possibility of something changing that dynamic so that though can sit down and talk just like what's happened in this world. whether you want to rail against it or not f you

are-- whether you want to say it's the worst things that's ever happened in history, i think it's one of the most hopeful things that happened in history. we don't know what history is going to tell us about. but how can you ever eradicate the possibility of two hurt nations or souls coming together to heal the hurt. an all the lives that might be saved by that action, of just two people getting to a table to sit and talk with each other. >> where are we in terms of the dynamic of how sol sees the moment. >> sol understands humanity and nations are made of humanity. and he understands that humanity operates as an anxiety-ridden entity. that most actions by human nature are driven by anxiety. and both side-- anxiety is also fear. >> fear. anxiety, betrayal.

desperation, hurt. my wife has this expression by is a model in-- motto in our family, hurt people hurt people. hurt people hurt people. and both sides are hurt for whatever reasons. to think that you can come to the table whether you are the israelis or the palestinians, the iranians or the americans, the native americans or the americanss and think, or your own husband and wife or your children, a father and son or a mother and daughter, and to think that only you are right and the other is wrong? that you hold no responsibility for the history of your relationship is madness. and what has gone on in this world in these troubled areas whether they be at our dinner table or in our fellow nations, when they're troubled, usually that trouble is not sustainable. and the only way to create a

sustainable system is to sit and face our fears, walk directly into the fire, speak with who you're terrified with, et cetera. >> but your friend netanyahu who has been at this table sitting in the chair you're sitting in a number of times and will again very soon, he would say i have responsibility. i have-- i carry on my shoulder a father, my brother, who was shot. i can't trust. it's hard, i'm sure. and when i tried to trust before, when we left gaza, see what happened? they started -- >> i love israel. i want israel to be there forever. i care about israel. and i care about the palestinian people. i care about both people equally. and i care about netanyahu.

and i respect his fears and his concerns and his leadership. >> because if i'm wrong. >> that's right. >> if i'm wrong it's not just me. >> that's right. and i believe like brennan says to me or netanyahu, or obama, you know, you can't be naive. there are people who are mad, insane, hurt or angry, or greedy or whatever label you want to put on it, that will not go according to your plan. so you better have defences. and you better be ready. i agree with that. but you must be as energetic and active about the peace process at the same time until you haven't a breath left in your body. >> why do you think sol has such compassion and tolerance for carey. >>'s by polar issues. >> i don't to. >> because he understands them, because he experienced them himself. >> rose: depression. >> absolutely, he did. he want through these things. sol. >> rose: do we know that in

the character. >> no, you don't know it but it's part-- it's undeniable. whether it was his own-- whether the writers ever divulge it, i don't know. i create my own scenario, i write my own script. >> my script is either with his father that had these difficulties and he watched the father son relationship in his own family, or it was himself, or a combination of the two. but when another human being comes to the table, that is gifted but troubled, he's compassion atz, he's very sensitive. and he's-- and he will die for them. and wished others maybe had died for his father, or had been kinder to him. >> and if he had not seen both the inspiration and infewive quality of carie. >> yes. >> as well as something that was not missing, something as damaged. >> yes. >> she would have had less appeal to him. >> yes. >> because he had been there and he had suffered. >> yes. there is a musical group that i've been working with, and on. it's a palestinian violinist, an israeli palestinian

violinist, a syrian drummer, an israeli cellist, a baptist piano player, and a chicago jew. and -- >> i'm glad the piano play certificate a baptist. >> we call it bridgesment and we haven't launched it yet. we've done some things privately it will come out in timement but the most beautiful thing that i heard which carey mathison has this in her nature, is that one point in a rehearsal the palestinian who-- violinist who plays arabic violin, i didn't know quite what that was, he said to the kelist, are you an arabic tuning? and i looked and i waited to say what was that. and he showed the places and he said it's the sound between the black and white keys. >> rose: yeah. >> so you can do that on a string instrument, but carey mathison hars the sound between the block and white keys of life.

she knows that potential. but he's also incredibly brilliant at following through on her choice to the greater good for humanity. and it might be the wrong choice. you know, i always found it fascinating-- . >> rose: she believes in herself, boy she believes in herself. >> people would say to me how you cannot know whether you were's the bad guy or the good guy at the end of the game. how do you not have to know that. how do you not have the writers tell you this. as an acker i say that them, our actions are the ground we walk on. an acker chooses how to act, what his actions are. and i say whether i'm playing hitler or gandhi, the action is the same. i believe that my actions are going to make the world a better place. it is you the listener who makes your choice, whether you want to go with hitler or gandhi. >> and do the creators of, does-- do the creators of homeland want us to assume that just as sol has turned this iranian, he believes,

and sent him back hoping he will achieve power, and then at once, how do we know that somehow there's another plot twist and what -- -- will achieve his own ends in his manipulation of sol in the way that we were lead to believe that brody had been turned. >> that's right. every time you think you know what direction it's going, it changes direction. the wind changes. >> you don't know. and -- >> you the viewer. >> you the viewer don't know. and i ain't going to fell you. >> rose: but you don't know. >> i don't know. and i, yeah, yeah. >> you don't know. >> i do not know. i have my own scenario, as i say. when i sing a song or i say words no matter whether it's shakespeare, inson or alex and howard in our glorious writing team, i write my own scenario underneath it i have my own story going underneath, why? because i need to connect. >> well, do you think the directors of the show either in conversation or have said to themselves we want mandy

because he'll tell us who sol is. yes, we have text, yes we have plot but we want an acker who will tell us who he ask by the way he sos him. >> i hope so, i don't want to be and say i'm so shall did --. >> some version of hub business-- hubris i make up my own words and you should play scrabble with my son if you think i'm a problem. hubretic. >> which is similar to hewbricly. >> rose: i knew with-- i'm not hubretic. so what i hope is that if they see, you know, if they see a man who listens in a deep are way that somehow that will become a fabric it was an improvisation that i said the mourners cottage that you showed at the beginning of our talk. i improvised that. i improvised that. >> i thought that you had gone off and studied --

>> in the first season, the man who cut his wrists was killed. and i was sitting against the wall. the camera was on me and i looked that the person who is es spoed to be my enemy and he's on the ground and the camera was quiet for a minute and i started saying the mourners cottage because a human being is gone. it is not about juddai but it is your reaffirmation in being alive and believe in life. >> sometimes i put them in e-mails to writers, sometimes i don't. sometimes i try to lace them into performancement but they're something else that i mentioned that i am hoping will somehow osmosize itself not fab lick of our pea whether espionage or cia. >> rose: the reality of america. >> well, this is a fictionalized version of america, let's be very clear rdz i want to make sure whether you are talking about washington or homeland. >> i am talking about my hope what drives sol and mandy patinkin is hope and optimism. and why i love this part is i feel that that is who sol barronson is and i am able to infuse unlimb thed hope

and optimism in that human being just as i try to infuse in myself. and we feed each other. that is why this part is sustainable for me. >> rose: because of hope and optimism. >> because of hope and optimism and i need it i need an endless unlimited amount of it. and one thing i suggested to the writers, i sent an e-mail to several of the writers, whether it will find itself or osmosize itself in the future of the peace because of the direction it going, i want not only what is going on in iran, but as you know when you visit brennan's office there are three books, all filled with things going on, not just in 1 place in the world, all over the world. and what i'm hoping for is that somehow sol barronson will become involved in the economics world of society and in that economic world will shower the palestinian people that the israelies will shower them and the american funding will shower them with education and health-care systems and road systems. and everything else, bombard them with kindness, goodness, health and hope. i don't know how you end up hating someone who does that.

and if i can get sol to manipulated the fictionalized version of the middle east of the israeli and palestinian people to somehow both the united states and all israel to just shower gaza and the west bank with aid and help and education and kindness, i find it pretty interesting to see who is going to get angry about that on the other side. in the fictional world and if it can one day become into the real world, you know, look, man, you know, great presidents read shakespeare for ideas. they read ibson, they read the classics. the classics come from people, just people like our writers. just people like you and me. >> rose: do you wish you could have this conversation with the president? >> i'm hoping he's watching. >> rose: he might be, he might be. >> of course i wish it, of course i wish it. to me it's a thrill that i am in a piece that's actually watched by president. this president, you know this is a piece that both clinton and obama admire.

and other-- and other nations. >> do you think they admire because they think hey, it's gooda, it's good acting, it has a fascinating plot because it takes this direction but also they admire it because of what you have just articulated throughout this conversation hope and optimism. >> i hope so but first and foremost they're in the opening credits. so i know they love it. but i do think -- >> so is ronald reagan. >> absolutely. but i do think i think they enjoy -- >> and george bush. >> i think they enjoy the possibilities that exist. you know, stephen sondheim at the end of his great piece that i got to be a part of sunday in the park with george, the final words were, he puts his hands up to frame the painting of sunday afternoon, and he says so many possibilities. he actually what changed the was white, a blank page or canvas, his favorite. so many possibilities.

and great minds, great leaders recognize that there are infinite possibilities to every situation. and why carey and obama are being tireless with this situation right now in both iran and both with the palestinian peace process, is because they recognize the possibilities of hope and optimism. and they know that what is can't sustain itself. >> rose: but at the same time you have to argue, we don't have time to do this because we don't, there are whole kinds of arguments you can make here about understanding, you can't negotiate with hitler, given? >> i certainly would have tried if i had been at the dinner table. you darn right i would have tried. and i believe you can negotiate with everyone. >> churchill. >> history will prove that you can't in a certain point because they are mad man, something wrong with their brain or just secretary. >> rose: and the other people arguing for with respect to iran and the

nuclear thing make this simple argument. sanctions were working, that hard reality of sanctions were working. and that's why they came to the table and it's no time, it is no time to pull back on sanctions. that's argument they make. netanyahu's argument. >> good, i'm not a tough guy. that's now how i operate. >> but is john brennan? >> well, john brennan is clearly somebody that said to me, you can't ignore that there are bad people out there. and you have to be on your game all the time. and i immediately said to him, i totally agree with you. but you must not letdown the same kind of energy toward the other side of the equation, which is the peace process. i think they must live hand-in-hand at all times. >> rose: in your mind how many mandies are there? >> there's quite a few. and if you ask my wife and children they will probably add to the ones that i can label but i think there are a number of them. i'm having fun,. >> is it the best time? >> it is the best time, if

you told me that the at 61, i was just 61 on saturday, november 30th. if you told me that that would be the best time in my life, i would have thought you were crazy years ago. but it is the best time in my life. and it is because of what we learn. because of the good and the negative choices that we have made during the ride. it is because of everything. and i, you know, i say to my wife often, how come i didn't know these things when i was 30, why didn't i know them. it would have been so much easier. she says because you didn't. and you weren't ready to and you know them now. >> i can't-- she has learned she is the particular in our family. >> it is the best time of your life it really is. it is partly the best time, you know there are numbers and my grandma is used to say on certain birthdays, that's a number. >> that's a number. and i do think when you're 50, that's a number.

and when when you're 60, that is another number, i do think sent again arians are the fastest growing group. but i, the clock, you're more aware of the clock. and so now if i have an idea or ten ideas today, i want to get them all going before the sunsets. >> yeah. >> i don't want -- >> because one of them might be earth shaking. >> no, not because one might be earth shaking. >> because they mean something to me. and i want to just get them out there. and i don't-- i want to work very hard at not being superman. one of my great teachers said to me and one of my greatest curses was spending too much of my early years trying to be superman. trying to be perfect. trying to serve mandy and not the team. and that's where i think when you talk about individuals, mandy trying to be superman as opposed to serve the team, serve the whole cast of homeland, the whole foundation, serve everybody in the concert, the writers, the publicists,

the producers, the audience, serve the whole family, my children, my wife, our relatives. serve everyone. and nations, don't just serve your own ideology, if it's your father's heritage or whatever. serve the whole nation, which means the people on the far right and left and everyone in the middle. and that's why it's a tough job. i couldn't do it. i don't know how. i said to mark rosenbloom who is the head of americans for peace now, who explained to me a thousand times, because i've been involved with the peace process, and all good cause, there is endless good causes, he's explaining a thousand times the peace process. and i'm not an idiot but i can't tell it to you. i said it's in the drawer and i can't, plain it to you. >> yeah. >> and i said mark, mark, mark, when. when will this come to be a reality? and the plan, there is several years ago because he doesn't feel this right now. because what he feels right now is imperative, is it's not sustainable and it's not morally and ethically sustainable what is going on. and we must change that as

citizens of societies, not just our society, all societies through the world. but what he said years ago, is when will it change. this man who devoted his life to the peace process said to me when they have exhausted the killing. >> they. >> they w they meaning everybody or they meaning the other side. >> they who killed. >> which is both sides. >> we started with music. >> yes. >> so when you cross the river for the last time, what do you want from sondheim or from hammerstein or from every hebrew song you've ever known to be singing in the hearts of the people who watch you cross. what song, what voice? >> i want the sound of harmony. >> do you really? >> yes, i want to hear the music. i want it to be in a light filled room. and i want it to be harmonious. and it's universal.

and it's spiritual, it's undeniable and it connects everyone. and that's why i think music is so powerful. it heals. i, tlts's too many wishes in the pot when you think of your family, your children, peace in the middle easting climate change. >> rose: right, right. >> nuclear in iran. >> but harmony. harmony. the ability to sit with your fellow man and woman and talk and listen. to accept your mistakes, say you're sorry, enough, not oversay it but certainly admit it. and then move on. sondheim wrote that song move on for sunday in the park with george and james la pine, if you could know where you're going, you go, just keep moving on. and you know, and look into the classics.

and look into the great writers and po eds and lyricists. they've left us where their wishes, not only for themselves but for the world at large. and there is great value to the art of the reflection of the human nature. and we are fools not to drink it. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: for more about this program and early episodes visit us on-line at pbs.org an charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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>> the following kqed production was produced in high definition. [ ♪music ] >> it's all about licking your plate. >> the food was just fabulous. >> i should be in psychoanalysis for the amount of money i spend in restaurants. >> i had a horrible experience. >> i don't even think we were in the same restauran