>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with the senator from new york. >> it's little bit of self help having mentors like my mother and grandmother. my mother was the only woman in her class and my grandmother taking politics in upstate new york. it's a way to ask women to be heard and raise up and speak about the things they care about not only can they make a difference but change outcome. >> we end with the british novel else whose latest book is called

the children act. >> it's like watching someone walking towards you out of the mist. you have the faintest outlines and you surround them with a few sentences. those sentences bring it closer and you see the outline of their shoulders and face and something of their personality begins to immerse. so you might live into existence. one generates one and another and suddenly when you're lucky, if you're lucky she tells the life of its own. >> rose: you get enough in the character so they tell you what they think and what they say and how they say it. >> what they do is exclude, they exclude all the impossibility. no she wouldn't say that and do that. this is how she is. and this lady is somewhat against the grain. >> rose: when we continue.

>> there's a saying around here: you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look. >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> senator kirsten jill brand is here. she's a brake from new york and replaced former senator hillary clinton in 2009. she was from the 20th congressional district. she is on women's right and takes battle on sexual assault in the military. she tells the story in her memoir called off the sidelines joining women for the political conversation. in the forward hillary clinton writes for kirsten public services it is not a job it is a calling. i'm pleased to have her here at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: what leads one to write a book at this time in your life. >> well, i wanted to share a little bit about my personal journey as a way to ask women to be heard on the issues they care about. it's action, memoir and a little bit of self help and things that

impact my life mentors like my mother and grandmother. my mom was one of three women in the law school class and my grand mother who is quite salty and making her way in politics in upstate new york. it's a way to ask women to be heard and speak up to raise their voices on things they care deeply about because they cannot only make a difference but change outcomes. >> rose: especially noticeable when you look at the issue of domestic violence today. women need to speak out and we need to hear. >> the nfl, it was clear this player beat his wife and dragged her out of the elevator and got a slap on the wrist. institution over institution are protecting their own around the star player or the favored soldier or student. and it's problematic because what it shows is how little we

are valuing women. and this book is a lot about do we value woman in the workplace, in our communities and really making the point that their views and life experiences may well be very different and those differences are good and that's why we have to be heard. >> rose: what about roger goodell. >> i think he handled it terribly and has to lead this reform going forward and make sure we have a zero policy and accountability. >> rose: if there's some evidence that he did not know. >> if he lied, then he has to step down because he won't have the credibility to go forward. >> rose: if he had not seen the video. >> then fine. he can lead this effort. he can create the accountability. he can create a zero tolerance policy. the reason that matters to me is they're boys. our players for our professional sports they're our role models and we cannot take it's okay to beat your wife. this is crime, cental behavior and we shouldn't tolerate it. >> rose: we have a new job.

>> yes. >> rose: is it need for legislation, is it need for public awareness, is it a need for what? >> all of the above. and the reason why i say that is, this isn't a problem for one industry or for one level of society. it's pervasive across all aspects. i tell stories in this book about two young women who came to my office and asked for a meeting. andrea and annie and told me how they were raped on their campus. they not only got up and brushed themselves off but they took this to the rest of the country and went to college campus after college campus creating a movement of women and men standing up saying you need to reform how you handle these cases. it's a societal challenge we have that isn't about any one place or think one person but really how do we handle this in

the military, in the nfl and schools. >> rose: no one has spoken more about this -- >> dick cheney has said zero tolerance for sexual assault but what we've seen is zero accountability. we have 26,000 cases of sexual assault raised in unwanted sexual contact last year alone and only 3300 reported one in went. >> rose: what is your position. >> i believe the decision-making about whether you should go to trial on one of these cases should not be made by the chain of command. if you listen to the victims and survivors they will tell you they don't trust the chain of command. nine out of ten cases isn't reported now. >> rose: people in positions of power over sexual assaults, in some cases have been accused of sexual assaults. >> yes.

there was a recent example where the person in charge of actually education and meeting out the policy was accused of assaulting a woman in a parking lot. so clearly, those who are charged are either not taking this issue seriously, don't care about outcomes but we aren't getting it right. so i believe if you're going to have the transsariny and accountability and hope for justice the decision maker should be a trained military prosecutor who has no skin in the game. who doesn't have some bias or reason to cover it up. you need someone who is there to represented just tice. >> what's going to happen to the legislation. >> we're going to keep fighting. one of the issues i bring up in the book charlie, it's okay to fail. it's okay to take risks and not win every battle because sometimes you can build on what you've achieve. we got 55 votes. we didn't overcome the

filibuster at 60 but those who stand up and tell the stories. >> rose: is that a matter of issue. >> grandma and ted cruz were on my bill. not democrat or republican it's about the right thing to do. sometimes you can find common ground even in congress and you can move these issues of important to the floor and actually get things done. >> rose: written by hillary clinton. what's the relationship you have with her. >> i talk a lot about it in the book, how she's been such a role model for me. first of all i would love to tell two stories. the first is when i was just a young lawyer pushing paper in my big law firm i saw her go to china as the first lady and saw her give that speech about human rights. now that impacted me because i had been an asian studies major, i learned mandarin and study in beijing and i knew how powerful it was for our first lady to

take that message to the world from beijing. that's really what woke me up. eventually i joined a political group in new york city with a bunch of ladies who had a lot more experience than i did. i went to an event where she was speaking and she looked out at the audience and i was the youngest by far 10 or 20 years. she looked had he group and said decisions are being made every day in washington and you're not part of those deexpitionz don't like what they decide you have no one to blaism but yourself. i thought she was talking to me. i'm a young 20 something early 30's and i start sweating because i'm thinking oh my goodness she's telling me i have to run. i got me started in my interest in working hard. >> rose: is then when you were working for andrew cuomo. >> this is before. first i tried to get a job at the u.s. attorney's office and failed and i tried at the major foundations and didn't get an interview and i tried to get a job on hillary's campaign when she became a senate candidate but i didn't have experience and didn't get a paid position.

it was andrew gave me the opportunity when i went to a speech talking about public service and why it's important and to fight for what you believe in. i went up to him and said mr. secretary i love your speech but i really think politic is an insider's game and i don't know how to get from a to b. he gave me a job on the spot, he said if you come to washington and get an interview me i went down and got a job. that's what started me on my public service career. >> rose: you love politic. >> i find lessons are about who you fight for and it's an opportunity for people's voices to be heard by voting and being advocates for the candidates to care about. >> rose: how did you get the selection of the democratic nominee to succeed hillary clinton. >> you would have to ask governor patterson but i could tell you -- >> rose: and senator -- >> yes. >> rose: and perhaps even secretary clinton. >> maybe. but my instance was secretary clinton was elevated, i was on

vacation with my family. i just won my re-election to the house, 24 point margin, it was a big win in my republican history. but we're at disneyworld and i hillary clinton is being elected for state of state. i asked my husband and he is the perfect partner giving me the right advice and he said we're only in this to help people. do you think you can help more people if you're in the senate and i said yes i would be representing 20 million people not 600,000. then he said you should. we're only in this as long as we're making a difference helping people. so i submitted my name and i was very blessed to be selected by represent our whole state. >> rose: in addition to all the other queats -- qualities d be good for someone to represent them. >> and warranting to continue the legacy as a woman leader for

the state so i think i benefited from that as well. when i got appointed it was my job to introduce myself to 20 million people. >> rose: they say every united states senator at some point in their life gets up and goes into the bathroom and looks in the mirror and sees a future president. >> not this one. >> rose: what are your political ambitions. i don't mean just for office but in terms of what you believe in your commitment to public service. >> i think about that often and i particularly think about that when i've lost the battle or feel like i'm not being a successful advocataz for the things that i care about. but what keeps me going is being that,ó have lobbyists in washington, people who don't have enormous amounts of money to really be that voice for lost causes. and you know, if you look at all the issues i champion, most of them started out as zero no chance of repealing don't ask

don't tell. most advocates said there's no legislative solution but i felt like those men and women willing to die for our country and being told no because of who they love. these things concern me and some battles are really tough making sure families have enough food. i can't tell you the lack of empathy and washington for families on food stamps. sometimes you can't win all these fights but i feel the reason i'm there is to fight them and that's why i feel so passionately about taking on sexual assault on the military or college campuses. >> rose: this is what edward said in political circles nobody doubts her issue in pushing for radical chain in the chain of command she'll make it easier for modest reforms to pass. she wins or loses, she wins, according to chuck schumer. >> well i think that's the lesson of the book for any woman who is trying to work in her school community to change the school lunch or trying to work on anything she has a passion

about is that anyone's voice can make a difference. the only reason i was able to fight for military reform is because survivors came to me and shared the worst details of their life the most horrible stories you can imagine. that enraged me it spurs me to action. so any one voice, any one person can make a difference in these debates. >> rose: is the core of discrimination against women or violence against women simple respect for them. >> yes, respect and lack of value. and that's why it's a much larger issue than any one context. we see it in the simplest thing is equal pay. the fact that women will do the same job as a man and only get $.770 -- $77eñ on the dollar ort even american. when a survivor of sexual awe saul comes forward and is believed it wasn't her own fault because she's wearing a shirt

skirt, they're victim blaming. and to me it's the women to be heard because our live experience is different. what we've experienced our priorities what's important for our families and communities is often different. if we can elevate our views and our voices we can change outcomes. i can give you a perfect example. when i was a young congress woman, i was appointed to the armed services committee. they put five women on the committee that year and it changed the debate. we were debating issues of military readiness focusing on how many ships and aircrafts and the equipment on the other hand issues. the woman sat next to me the doctor in my base or district said 70% of the men or women going back to combat aren't ready. we have 11 members committing suicide every day. what are you doing about post traumatic stress disorder. so that debate about military readiness is a more complete

debate. the combination of the male and female perspective is what's so powerful and i think results in better decision-making better array of issues being debated and certainly better outcomes. >> rose: one of the things hillary clinton is given credit for as secretary of state is the kind of global outreach to women wherever she travels. >> she does it so well. i've read stories where a woman who is taking care of women who have)and our tool of warfare and hillary goes and stops by that place the advocates say she brought light to issues we've been fighting for generations. hillary has always used her position to shine a light on injustice which is one of the reasons why i'm such a great fan and think she's an extraordinary person to be our next president. >> rose: you also in this book talk about how often you've had men come to you even in the senate and spend a bit of time commenting on your looks.

whereas that's not is received very much. >> no. the reason why i purposely put in specific -- >> rose: and weight as well. >> weight, you're pretty when you're fat, ridiculous comments. good thing you're working out, you wouldn't want to get porky. crazy comments that should never be said to anyone. >> rose: when they say that what do you say. >> usually i say nothing because i'm either so disgusting or so disbelieving those words actually went out of their mouths. but the stories that are more i think important are the ones that i told about my, when i was younger in my career. because you know when you're a senator or congressmen, you don't, these issues, they don't affect you, they're not your bosses they're your peers and they're just being stupid so it doesn't impact you. when my boss said something like that to me when i was a young lawyer and in a celebratory dinner when i was working for months and months canceled vacations every weekend and he spends a minute saying thank you kirsten for your hard work but don't you love her hair cut doesn't she look great. that's a punch in the gut that

reminds me, i felt i wasn't as valuable or as important or that my hard work wasn't being noticed and those are the kind of comments that are tough on women particularly early on in their career. the reason why i included it i want that woman to read my book and think you're not alone. the jerk in your office saying something rude to you you can push past him and some day you'll be the partner and run that law fiferl and change the climate. not to be discouraged. >> rose: this campaign, this midterm election is going to be decided by the u.s. senate. early on there was some real serious suggestions that it may turnwkñ republican. i think maybe in the times i read it not quite so certain in north carolina line and being in danger may not be so. how do you see what this campaign that we will vote in november is about? >> you know, i think all campaigns are who you fight for and what are your values. and i think women's issues are

going to be very much part of that space. i think our candidates are better and i think we will hold the senate because of that reason. even in these tough races, the issues being debated are about values. do you want to raise the minimum minute wage, do you believe people shouldn't be living in poverty after 40 hours a week shouldn't be below the poverty. those are really important value issues. >> rose: former secretary clinton, what do you think the feelings of her campaign if she decides to run for president. will there be a focus on things like income and equity. >> i certainly hope so. i covered a lot of things in this book. one of the things is really having it all and i dislike the framing of having it all. having is a an absurd word. we're not having anything. we do it all. women for very long has been doing it all and how do we support them in their efforts. most of the workplace rules are

stuck in the man age era. dad went to work and mom stayed home. today they're both working. they're the primary wage earner. what to see is discussions of income and equity and the real drag on the economy we have because we're not  support, womenand families i. >> rose: the stock market is an all time high and the middle class is that participating in the kind of growth in their own expectations and their own economic power. >> for a typical mom in the workplace the fact she doesn't have paid leave is a real problem. it means when her mother's sick and dying and needs 24/7 care she doesn't have flexibility or her child gets hit by a car and in a wheelchair she can't take care of her child because she'll lose her job. that's the real issues and they're not elevated to the forefront of the national debate because there's only 20 women in the senate and 18% in the house and that's a problem. i think the next presidential

campaign could very much be focused on issues like do you believe in paid leave in this country. do you want to raise the minimum wage. do you believe you should have equal pay for equal work. these are bread and butter issues for almost all working families. if we can fight for all of our workers, you will see a growth in the economy and you'll see more economic opportunity for the middle class. >> rose: the president spoke last week about isis and the challenge and secretary of state has been in paris yesterday trying to get support from the other nations and also in the arab world. does he need to come to congress to get approval. >> for certain strategies he does, yes. >> rose: what are those? >> well i think if he wants to use military force and bomb these air strikes in syria i think he needs an authorization outside the 2001-2002 authorizization. >> rose: if he wants to bomb syria he needs congress' approval. >> i believe so. there's a ditch of opinions but i believe he does. >> rose: do you think that's in the democratic party. >> i don't know but it's certainly an issue we will be

debating. you know, isil is a serious metastasizing threat, it is something that is fascinating, extremely well funding, a threat to american interest both long term and short term so there is a response and i do appreciate a lot of the response the president has laid out in terms of engaging the arab world, the muslim world. making it clear this is a sunni muslim led effort in whatever battles welo decide to engage . only then will we be able to have any open of success. >> rose: if the president says it's necessary to bomb in syria which you indicated might very well be, do you support him. >> he needs to seek authorization -- >> rose: how about with authorization. >> i wouldn't support it without authorization but i would have look at an authorization request carefully to see what the parameters are. >> rose: does the whitehouse does not need authorization. >> i think i've been very clear about that. >> rose: how would that come to a head. >> right now we're being asked

whether we support arming the rebels. i would vote against that. >> rose: even though president clinton has supported it in the past. >> i think she thought it was a time that it was appropriate. i don't know what her views are now but my view is -- >> rose: i think she's changed her views on at that time. >> i don't know. i don't think she's made a statement on that. my view is i think it's may well not be effective and that it has serious potential consequences unforeseen and unintended consequences. >> rose: arming rebels. >> correct. >> rose: the risk you worry about is somehow those weapons will fall in theradical jihadis. >> without a doubt. we've seen it in the past. and we've seen it after years of training the iraqi forces that isis came through and cut through them like butter. i don't know that you can in a short period of time -- >> rose: they had american weapons and training. >> correct over a long period of time. i don't know it's e he can

fective in the short term if you train a certain level those weapons will stay in their hands. they're not the best fighters. >> rose: doesn't this present a difficult problem no matter how you see it if inb7 fact they're in the process of creating an islamic state between syria and iraq. and if in fact they're expanding, at what point do you think we have to do everything we can to saw them? what is your red line for doing something. >> we should be doing everything we can but there are certain -- >> rose: but -- >> there are certain strategies that will be effective and certain strategies i don't believe will be effective. i believe we should use all effective strategies. the ones the president has laid out in terms of engaging the muslim arab world are essential. this has to3 ça be a sunni led muslim effort not american led boots on the ground. >> rose: he's not suggesting boots on the ground. >> but many in congress are suggesting that. what i believe is that -- >> rose: but it's the -- >> congress has a role -- >> rose: what the president, not what lindsay graham is

prepared to do. >> of course but i do believe congress has a role and if you are going to engage in hill tree action in syria a certain kind of military action is the authorization to do so is broadly written as susan collins is very concerned about, an authorization for war with syria. those are very serious concerns and they should -- >> rose: syria's in opposition for war, authorization to do anything to stop isis. >> depends how it's written. that's why i do believe there needs to be an opportunity for congress should be heard. >> rose: no one is suggesting war against syria, are they? >> they have to debate that and see what's being asked of us. we've not seen the resolution yet we're going to be asked to be voted on with regard to army rebels. these are the serious questions congress must be engagedth. >> rose: what's the political conversation might be. senator obama made a speech about the wore and that helped

prop him within behind own party to the nomination. is this seen among democrat as having political consequences? >> you know you have to ask each individual senator what they feel. but i can tell you, many americans, many in our state are very war weary and they do not want to see boots on the ground. they do not necessarily want to see an american-led mission. they understand isis is a serious threat and there are many strategies you can use in terms of engagement, in terms of special forces missions, in terms of intelligence gathering that could be vibrant and powerful. but certain strategies i don't support because i don't think they'll either work or i think they will be very grave unintended consequences. i don't want to see our weapons used against our men in the next battle because isis can so easily take them from relatively untrained moderates -- >> rose: -- air power in syria. >> i have to see what the president requests and look at it and make an determination then. >> rose: isn't that avoiding

the issue saying what the president will request. >> i'll tell you what i'm not in favor in an opposite ended request to put the next president with armed forces and boots on the grounds. >> rose: how many senators do you think would support putting boots on the ground. >> i think chairman mendez has made certain statements. >> rose: putting boots on the grounds, not central forces observing targets. >> you can ask every senator what they think. i'm not in favor of boots on the ground. i may consider air statistics -- >> rose: he's not in favor of boots on the ground. >> i may consider air strikes at a certain time if authorization is requested. how that authorization is worded is very important. i've seen a draft authorization that is broad enough that would allow for boots on the ground. i'm very concerned about how that's written and what is given. you can see, charlie, the 2001 and 2002 authorizations are being used for all mixes. i trust this precede and supportive of his tragedy and professors -- approaches but i

don't agree with all of his approaches. my job is to have a voice in these decisions. >> rose: which approaches don't you agree with. >> i don't agree with army syria moderate rebels but i don't think it will be effective as we've seen with the iraqi military forces and those weapons could easily be in the hands of isis in the future used against armed men and women which is very concerning to me. >> rose: this is a debate that could be had in washington. >> yes, it is. >> rose: you began this by saying if i had a daughter i would tell her certain things. i would tell her it's great to be. really smart that being smat makes her strong. tell her emotions are powerful so don't be afraid to show them. some people may judge you on how you look or what you wear, it's just how it is but you should keep your focus on what you say or do. tell her she may see the world differently from boys and that difference is essential and good. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: well said. >> thank you. >> rose: the book is called off the sidelines, kirsten

gillibrand the senator from new york. subtitle raise your voice, change the world. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: ian mcewan is here one of the most important literary novelists at work today. his new book tells the story of a leading high court judge presiding over the case of a 17 year old. >> jehovah's witness who refuses a blood transfusion. it is called the children act. i'm pleased to have ian mcewan back at this table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: so suralan lord as i get story this is a friend of yours. >> yes, test. >> rose: you have a conversation. >> he gave me dinner once and there were several judges at the dinner table. >> rose: the purpose of the dinner to inform you about judicial proceedings. >> no. nobody thought i was a novelist or an on the job novelist. but sooner or later i had a judgment in my hand a bound volume when they were talking

about something else. and i started looking isn't this a form of fiction. this is a subgenre that needs examination. especially the family division. it's right in the heart of fiction's concerns. the novel's concerns. even though i wasn't thinking of the novel, i put it away in the back of my mind three years later. he did tell me a story of a jehovah's witness case and halfway through that i knew i was going to write a novel somewhere. >> rose: down home. but what did you say, it's writing the novelist. >> i think the family division pitched its tent right in fiction to rein. it's not in the end of love especially end of love the contested destiny- of children. medical and legal ethics, all kinds of issue that don't involve crimes of guns and knives and rapes and so on, but ordinary dynamics which face people, certainly once or twice

in their lifetime. >> rose: depression and all that. >> all those things. >> rose: so you set up to write it. what did you do then? >> i read more judgments. on the internet you can pull them down. i became impressed by the best of them. there were some terrible judgments by the way. the best of them great prose, huge historical sweep, irony, wit. but the other thing that really struck me these are all secular judgments. they do not refer their moral systems to any super vening, super natural entity. and yes they are over the matter. kind of a risk here and i thought this is one i'd like to explore. >> rose: where is religion in your life? >> oh, england which is kind of

atheism which was plight and conventional. i used to carry the plague in the garrison church. i even read a lesson from the carinthian's. but i lost all religion in my early teens. >> rose: you said once about writing a new novel it began as a society feelings that are so vague that you can't even write them down=r because you might rn them. >> yes. sometimes wrapping words around a fort is a way to suffocate it. hesitation i think is a very important creative element. have a good idea but sit on it a while. it was a good idea two months later then you know it's a good idea. >> k ind of just let it mold

like a cheese. >> rose: when did you -- >> perhaps in the middle, perhaps in the beginning. testing it, tasting it seems to be important to me. >> rose: this has the stark confrontations. >> yes. it happens a lot. and the more i looked into, in fact in the signing line of it, there were three judges all at one point or other forced against his wishes, a young jehovah's witness to have a blood transfusion. forced the parents to accept the hospital had the right to do this. >> rose: what about parents who don't give a blood transfusion and the child dies. will they say it must be god's will. >> there's a certain degree of faith. i heard them also say the this to me, we don't see death as something that's final, it's a

beginning. the courts idu think take a very robust approach to this. if you wish to make yourself a martyr to your religion that's fine. you are an adult but you cannot inflict such martyr on a child. so generally the courts will give the hospital permission to transfuse against the parent's wishes. but when that child gets to 18 at his or her majority the more of what the law calls an anxious question it become and the more the courts want to hear from the young teenager himself. it's not just a rubber stamping moment. the courts take this very seriously because it's a matter of criminal assault to treat someone against their wishes in a hospital. >> rose: so when you create her, how did you create her. she's a judge. >> she's a judge.

>> rose: she's 59 years old. >> she's 59 years old, childless. it's again this vague process. i tell you what it's like, charlie. it's like watching someone walking towards you out of a mist. you have the faintest outlines and you start those outlines with a few sentences. those bring them a little closer and you see the outlie of the shoulders and face and something of her personality begins to emerge. so you write to existence. one sentence generates another, one thought generates another. suddenly when you're lucky, if you're lucky she had a life of her own. she tells you what to say. the possibilities -- >> rose: you get enough in the character so they tell you what they think and what they say and how they say it. >> what they do is exclude all the impossibilities. no she wouldn't say or do that,

this is how she is. this lady was somewhat against the grain. rather self contained, hardly rational but emotionally articulate. against the grain that women in novels have to pay much more articulate emotions than men. that's more of a standard route. let's have wonderful in her work, takes her private life for granted, always been very smooth and efficient. now it's facing a crises she's not good at dealing with her own problems. she's much better on other people. >> rose: i love the name. if i had ómuthat and one would . it always to me meant somebody

who had their own they knew their own mind and they were strong. >> i did know, this is a piece. a magistrate's court that's incredibly striking. >> rose: they're all tall. >> she's tall and freckled and highly competent. >> rose: a while of the mind for me. >> i'm sure we can find. >> rose: i'm going marry fiona. >> marry them all. >> rose: she mets adam. >> the cases before her sitting in the emergency basis in the high court in london in the courts of justice, and she does a slightly irregular thing though it's not impossible. she suspend the court's proceedings, crosses london memoranda cab and goes and sits in this boy's bed.

he's 17 years old, rather highly intelligent. determined to die. she sees right through him in many ways. at the same time he stirs her. this is a child perhaps she might have had. >> rose: and then they stand by -- >> paradoxically for a boy thinking about death, he's teaching himself the violin and he's learn add view tunes and he wants to play an irish lament. down by the gardens. and she sings it as he plays it and tells him it's by the poet yeats. and it's one of the elements of the life of poetry and music. she saw a message from another world outside here. suddenly she is the reason he wants to go on living.

>> rose: exactly. and therefore you have it. what else is going on your life. >> in my life? well, at what level? we're about to possibly break up my country. >> rose: you're against that and your wife is for that. >> yes. i have an english mother and a scott father. i am the united kingdom. i don't want my arms and legs torn off. >> rose: david cameron and george osborne all of a sudden -- >> with a do you want, we'll give you whatever you want. i think you are witnessing our political needs in panic mode. >> rose: how would you like

to have the prime minister of britain and the united kingdom and somebody comes and says there's a chance you will be forever identified in history as the man who lost scotland. >> who give the referendum gave into its term. >> rose: yes. >> a bit of gerrymandering. 15 year olds never had a vote in britain. my point would be this. that despite the act of union, scotland always was a different country. as soon as you step off the train or plane you know you're in a different country. there are no british novelists. we don't have british novelists, we have english novelists and scottwe don't have british post. we have irish post. we don't have british novelists. so scotland has no shortage of identity. >> rose: do we think of

burton as welsh or as united kingdom. >> welsh. of course he's welsh. it's like soccer. we don't have a british football team. >> rose: yes. >> so in fact now if we lose the union, we'll look back on it and say that's amazing all these places could keep their identity in only one place. we take it for granted. but i think literature is bound to be the beating heart and soul of a country. there are only scottish novelists in scotland. >> rose: i think you had a conversation with richard dawkins sell years ago and said to be frank because we look a little nervous behind you. >> i'm afraid that is the case. there wasn't i think efficient tolerance of discussion. i was talking last night to a young woman who is a writer in pakistan. she said if she were to express

admiration for him, the writings she would probably face the death penalty. and already her family are under armed guards because her husband is a forthright secular journalist. >> rose: an armed guard. >> yes. i'vei think it's problematic. >> rose: bill maher was in the other night and talked about it. i said well gee clearly -- >> what was the objection. >> rose: there are no moderate -- >> well i don't take that view. >> rose: that was my point.

>> through there is a strain. >> rose: yes. >> and now we have, we should be back to square one with the united states having to get in bed with some unsavory regimes. egypt. troops on the ground. >> rose: -- my friend. >> i think in the new situation in northern iraq we can't really separate out humanitarian aid and military action. they are very closely together when you put a band in such blood thirsty. >> rose: those people in britain who are opposed to the iraqi war are not opposed to taking on isis. >> we'll filed a -- find a lot of opposition. >> rose: on what basis. >> look what happened last time. came into it wedge. >> rose: into the wedge.

>> yes. i mean i think it's a quite a situation where you're damned if you do or damned in you don't. >> rose: we know that for sure. >> it's going to be american troops and allies on the ground sooner or later. >> rose: so let them rise. why don't you write about this. >> there's no way around it. i think you have to facehit's c. we have to do something. >> rose: a new strain of naziism. because of the idea barberrism is still a political advantage. >> i think a most destructive idea is the notion of utopia

quite honestly. paradise. if you think you could make all of mankind happy forever just by killing a few million people, it's the only rational thing to go do it. of these young, some of them very marginal have a strong belief in paradise and the after life. and are prepared to do what's necessary to get themselves there but also get their brethren there. it's a fatal idea, utopia is. >> rose: like religion. people are prepared to do anything in some cases. >> yes. you know, there are all kinds of atheists i know being very loud living way down in what's stupidly called the bible belt. i think even the great american

physicist steven weinberg has been down there 40 years and has always spoken for his beliefs chest entirely secular. he said in all these years no one ever raised a finger against him. >> rose: in theá bible belts tolerant. >> there's no longer the rampant. i think in 16th century europe, you would soon find yourself strung up. >> rose: our friend we were talking about said he police that they will recede because history shows that extreme and willingness don't have staying power. >> well, that staying power could be 10, 30, 40 years. >> rose: between the rival and the a staying power.

>> even the soviet union. there is still some 80 years, two or three generations highly inconvenient circumstances. >> rose: what did you learn about jaw -- jehovah witness. >> very polite, very friendly. i told them i was writing a novel. this was quite refreshing and i put them through all the issues of the blood and so on. i said you only had this rule in place since 1945. but the last one i spoke to just a couple weeks ago said yes but the truth is always known in genesis. it's in leviticus. and one other. it's in acts as well. so i say but surely these are

just dietary restrictions, you know. strictly commandments and a belief that we should follow his commandments. and they were not going to turn me around and i was the going to turn them around. the exchanges were always very friendly. very cautious. >> rose: what criticisms of your writingzp do you find the most off target? makes you recoil in anger or frustration. >> there are some things i think all writers have this. i'm not special in this but there are certain kind of the thing other people will say about you. >> rose: so no matter what you write. >> you never get away from it. i always have unbelievably extraordinary thrilling or exploited, however you want to see it, events.

i say well i don't actually think of atonement. but that doesn't make any difference. whatever i say, they only really thinking of the opening chapter of enduring love. but someone said this is what i do and somehow i can never push people's attention away from this. the opening the first hundred or 200 pages of atonement is one slow note of expanding circumstances. there's nothing hugely dramatic. usually in public on a stage an interviewer. i just think this question's come off the internet. it's not based on his or her reading experience. and i'm too weary of even rejecting the question. sometimes they can have the next question. >> rose: just get on with it. >> yes. >> rose: when you write a

book are you anxious to get 2509 next one -- to the next one or do you have a period -- >> i'm quite good at not writing. i like hesitation. a phrase i often quote. it's when prichert was criticizing, he was quite a party goer and prichert said he lacked what great writers had, the capacity for determined stupor. i disagree with the remark. i think he's a wonderful writer but i loved the phrase determined stupor.c! and that's what i like, kind of a relaxed mode of receptivity, reading, traveling with friends and idle thinking. >> rose: where do you write? >> i'm very lucky, i have a big old converted stone barn out in the country in gloucestershire which is attached to the main house by a society double doors

so i can't hear anything going on in there. all my books are around the walls. >> rose: do you start in the morning. >> start in the morning. >> rose: early? >> no. 9ish 10ish. >> rose: after breakfast. >> i don't eat breakfast. one slice of toast and i carry the second cup of coffee and think this is delicious. i've got three or four hours. >> rose: of just me and my work. >> yes. >> rose: i have to get up early because of the morning show. it's okay because i don't like it take me down. it's lovely, it's lovely because i'm in a place where i can look out over central park and i can see everything. but it's quiet, it's the sense

that you are in a quiet place. and things are moving in slower speed. >> the phone doesn't ring. >> rose: the phone doesn't ring.g) >> and you feel rested and you're at the top. some exciting times i write all night. it's a heroic feeling. you just plunge on into the night in the dorm. >> rose: the book is called the children's act. as you know, he's a much praised english novelist. thank you. >> thank you charlie. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications

captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

. this is "nightly business report" with tyler mathisen and susie gharib. touching a record. the blue chip dow index rises to an intraday high and they place their bets on a crucial two-day meeting of the federal reserve. calling it quit. calpers, the country's biggest investment system will get rid of its pension funds, will others follow? and used by what some call immoral and illegal, september 16th. and good evening, and welcome, i'm tyler mathisen in our nation's capital where the federal reserve kicked off the two-day policy-setting meeting.