>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with a nobel prize recipient paul krugman talking about the economy, wall street, and president obama. >> if you were somebody who wanted to see the u.s. welfare state unravel, if you were somebody who wanted to see a radically smaller government, reagan did not deliver that, in the end he left the structure pretty much the way it was. obama, on the other hand, has left us with healthcare is essentially a right of legal residence in the united states, so obama has achieved a permanent transformation of america in a way that reagan did not and by my analysis that makes obama a more important president in the end that reagan was. >> rose: we continue with bernard-henri levy talking about isil and the threat it poses in syria. >> he is a crazy man has the

obsession of a free kurdistan, because between free kurdistan and a trial strirt, trial strir rat, he plays with fire, he makes the choice of islamic state, over a free kurdistan. >> what we know is that kurdistan is probably the very modern, the very example of this moderate islam, secular, preaching equality between women and men, that we are looking for everywhere, it is here, this moderate islam is incarnated by this kurdish resistance. so to erdogan this is probably a danger. >> rose: we conclude with the most famous chef in italy, massimo bottura, his new book is called never trust a skinny italian chef. >> i was at the institute of

america, give a speech to this young cooks and i said, guys, remember one thing, you always have to have to be a great chef, you always have to have great ingredients in your backpack, you have to travel and get contaminated in a wide way, because you will never, ever forget about where you come from, but you have to have three ingredients, humility, passion and dream. >> rose: paul krugman, bernard-henri levy, and massimo bottura when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following. additional funding provided by

and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> from our studios in new york city, this the chery charlie ro. >> rose: paul krugman is here, nobel laureate in economics and new york times columnist and professor at prince son and had been one of president obama most vocal critics on the left early in the term and now changed his tune on the president and written a cover story of the current edition of rolling stone magazine the headline is, in defense of obama. in it he assert president obama is one of the most con again comul and yes, consequential and successful presidents in united states history. the i am .. it is a pleasure t to have you at e table. >> thank you. >> rose: i want to know how your opinions may have evolved or changed. but first where are we today? i

just watched what happened at the -- in washington in terms of what happened with respect to global forecasts. >> yes. >> rose: from the imf, and they talk about a slowdown and recovery that is mediocre and looked at europe and china, u.s. was reasonably healthy. >> right. and so the u.s. has been looking pretty good, but not a roaring boom by any means and then there is big troubles. europe is actually seriously scary, china is, in=-áf fact, seriously scary although it is harder to track, but it gets less press and we are not an island, i think internationally, our enter depen democrats can be overstated but we are not completely immune to the bad developments and we are not on that solid of a basis here. so here we are, six years after, still, very fragile. >> rose: let's talk about europe first. what is the problem in europe? >> well, that shifted.

first it was originally all the problem in the debtor companies and very strong germany but now their problem is that after years and years of not -- of being worried about the wrong thing, being too worried about debt, being worried about inflation which never came, and now they suddenly look around and discover that they have turned into japan without the social cohesion, that inflation is practically zero, it doesn't matter zero -- but they are essentially in deflationary track already, germany is slowing down sharply because it depends on exports and who do

and right meet. anti-immigrant groups and extreme nationalist groups. what if marine la pin, anti-immigrant, what if she becomes president of france and oh that is not going to happen, but if you believe the polls that is what would happen. >> rose: the president today -- >> that's right if the election today it would be a real possibility. britain, golden dawn in greece, the separatists in northern italy, there is a lot simmering because that is what year after year that kind of failure does. >> rose:. >> and so europe is -- >> rose: it creates people who have a nationalistic cry and use the economy as the reason why everybody is angry and suffering? >> and the elite in europe have

discredited itself, europe has always been this thing where the people who know have been more or less, think they know have been opposing their vision of europe on the public without a lot of popular support, the european idea has never been as deeply rooted among the general public as it is among the european elite, the elite have to actually show that it is competent and everything from the last six years in europe says it is not. of course the radical groups are going to gain power. >> rose: and then there is russia, oil prices are declining. >> yes. >> rose: and they spend a lot of their economy, 60 percent or more -- >> yes. >> rose: is dependent on energy. >> yes, russia is a petro state, russia is in fact not a big economy, it is not, it is, its direct role is not that big, i guess there is probably some -- they are sort of a weak economy with nukes and so exactly what you think about that, i don't know, but that has got to be part of the feeling that things are going wrong. >> rose: what is happening in china? >> china we have been waiting,

we know that there is -- china has to change, china has been an economy that has bizarrely high levels of saving and investment and very little consumption and that can only go on so long and china, we know at some point it has to hit the moment when it has to shift 20 percent of gdp to investment to consumption and they keep on putting off that moment and now they are kind of hitting the wall. >> rose: i know you are an economist and not a stock market am list. >> yes, very much. >> rose: and -- but having said that, is all of the things we have just been talking about the reason the stock market went down so dramatically today? >> god knows. i mean, paul samuel son says the stock market has forecasts 9 of the last five recessions. it is all -- i think it is a general sense of have iters, i think the bond market is more interesting. that is a little bit -- that's a

clearest thing and what the bond market, which ten year interest rates dropped below two percent at least part of the day today. that, the bond market is signaling it thinks we are going to be a depressed economy, certainly a depressed world economy for a long time to come. >> rose: what is long time? >> well, if you look at five-year -- five-year implied inflation forecasts, they are saying five more years of depression, it certainly -- the idea that we are going to form lies, interest rates are going to go up next year and everything is going to return by 2018 to the way the world was in 2007, the market doesn't believe that anymore and neither do i. >> rose: suppose all these governments come to you and say professor krugman, we hear you, things are really awful, we want to create a growth economy, we want to create demand, what do we do? >> okay. so we can wave aside politics what would you want to do? last time we had anything like this,

was in the 1930s, how did we get out on the that? the answer is we had a very large fiscal stimulus, known as world war ii, an accommodate if the monetary policy, 65 percent rise in prices among the war that eroded the real value of the debt, had a long period after that of financial repression, low interest rates and inflation, which really helped out levels, and something, now this is not as bad as the great depression but if you have to say what would a textbook solution be, it would be. >> rose: a war. >> a big infrastructure program, how about construction, not destruction but a big infrastructure program, very aggressive monetary policy, lots more quantitative easing, raise the inflation card at least for the next decade, you know, basically create an economy where sitting on your cash is a very bad deal, and investing looks like a really good deal and break out of this. >> rose: and that's true to

both the republic and the private sector? >> that's right but we don't control the private sector directly so right now we are in a world where more public spending would actually crowd private investment in on out what is holding private investment out is not the cost of funds but lack of demand so if you have more government spending, if we went out there and built lots of infrastructure, especially an extra tunnel under the hudson river for my commute, then we would have more private investment as well and things would be a lot better. so all we have to do is get house republicans and germans to agree that we need a lot more public spending and it is easy. >> all right. there is also this question with respect to housing which was created the last recession, what is what is happening in house something. >> housing is interesting because first of all, you don't have to fill a flat tire through the hole, right,. >> tows get housing, where we

lost it doesn't mean it has to be the -- >> rose: exactly. well said, larry. >> yes. but also housing, now the thing is we built very few houses for now eight years, housing bubble burst in 2006 so we are actually kind of underhoused so why isn't there a roaring demand for houses? >> rose: why isn't construction up? >> lousy job market so these kids are 25, 29 years old are staying with their parent. >> rose: and don't have the money to spend so don't my buy houses. >> so a virtuous circle and economy creating more job and more housing and more jobs, and some of that is happening right now but a real boom would create all of that and have, if anything a miniature version of the housing boom, not a hopefully not another huge bubble but another boom as we make up for lost ground. >> rose: so having said everything you just said, why isn't you are argument this guy has been in charge of the u.s. economy and you are here praising him saying he is this great president. >> right. >> and just said our economy is

not that great. >> he had, remember, only -- >> rose: bully pulpit. >> he had only two careers when he passed legislation and the bully pulpit, i mean that is, i think, i prefer, the green lantern theatre of the presidency, by force of will he can somehow make the republicans cooperate, he can't, so all of these things, i mean, i talk to people and white house economic team they would say we do a trillion-dollar investment program, but nothing like that is even feesable so we can't do that. so i would say that -- >> rose: in fact could have gotten that through a republican house, they would have been able to stimulate this economy so that it would be in much better shame, programs growing at a four percent rate? >> yes, so back when i was critical of obama very much in 2009 i thought that he had a window there when he did control congress, although, difficult to get stuff through the senate, even then, but still when that

was, they could have been super aggression receive and they were not, that window closed but. >> rose: lead leader think is getting things done by getting people to come around to your point of view or to have them see their own interests so that you are able to do something. that is the definition. >> yes, but that is a fantasy in this world. just look at what the republican base is hike. i mean, so this idea that somehow it is obama's fault he has gotten scorched earth opposition from the gop, that doesn't -- >> rose: can you just give him a pass because he has opposition in the republican house? >> well, okay. >> rose: you tried, okay, and so, therefore -- it is your fault and therefore we will, it is not your fault and therefore call you a great president. the i am calling him a great president for other stuff, above all health reform and health reform is, i quote joe biden, i don't think we can quote him on the air but it is a something something, big something deal and, look, if you are somebody

of my political leanings. >> how would you define that? >> well, i am a free market progressive. >> rose: i love this word progressive. >> yeah, i think there is a distinction between liberalism, central and progressive as a political strategy. >> rose: all right. >> anyway, liberal, progressive have wanted a national guarantee of health insurance, and have been fighting for it for 70 years, we have got it. >> began with truman? >> yeah, fdr wanted to put it into social security but certainly began with truman and now failed under clinton, got nowhere and now we have it. it is not the program you would have devised, it has holes and complexities, but it is actually working better than expected, costs are below expectations, enrollment is above expectations. >> rose: do you believe the manu perceives it that way? >> >> rose: now? >> no, the public, first of all, by construction, the affordable care act leaves most people

unaffected if you have good insurance, you pretty much got to keep it and so. >> rose: well there were a lot of people who can't afford -- >> that's true but it turns out -- >> a small number. >> a small number and actually what actually couldn't keep was bad insurance, skimpy policies that didn't meet the standards, but if you have employment insurance through your employer, it stayed the same so most people are not affected, it is run through state level exchanges, so many people don't even realize it was a federal program, the other day mitch mcconnell did a word salad in his debate where he tried to failure the issues, well people can keep the kentucky version of it, even if we repeal obamacare but of course they can't it is actually part of obamacare but people don't know that. even liberals, i tal faulk talko are not aware how well the first year went i think the news media have done a pretty good job. >> first year of release of the affordable care act? >> that is correct. they are not aware how many people signed up and insurance premiums came in 15 percent

below projections that has not got a lot of play. >> and more protection of people who former foáwi1e did not have insurance. >> that's right we think about 10 million we won't have that for a while but previously 10 million people shut out of the insurance market are in, something similar will likely happen next year so a lot -- >> this is not -- for another discussion of obamacare, but did it hurt small businesses? >> no. i mean -- >> rose: they have allowed megaphone, then, because perception is -- >> yes. there were some that were hurt a lot that are helped, i know people running small businesses finally able to get their employees health coverage because -- >> rose: the majority or a minority or more people who had a plan that was working for them and now -- >> no. >> rose: -- regulations make it -- >> very. >> rose: -- unbearable -- >> the number of plans that were actually look working for people that got canceled is very small, that is tremendously -- there were political reasons why that

is played up but actually, actually here of course we are in new york and in new york, that didn't happen at all because new york had more details, but there were -- bad plans were basically not allowed in new york, but that meant that lots of people had nothing at all. so, no, if it weren't a fit that fix that republicans want to stick to use on the president this would be viewed and reported as really startling success but the public doesn't really know. >> rose: is that why you think you think president obama is a great president. >> the main thing because this is a defining achievement. but other things financial reform, is much better than people think, a lot of people think well because no wall street people went to jail which i regret that too, that nothing was done. and that is not true. there is a reason why wall street is screaming bloody murder and -- >> rose: in the just department -- >> well, yes, okay.

that is a serious -- in a way, i mean i would have liked to see it, i would have liked to see some people sent to jail to encourage the others, but in looking forward in terms of legacy what we have now is much more effective regulation of large financial institutions, we have serious consumer protection, which we didn't have at all before, and that, it is noit isnot nearly as big a deals healthcare but people talk as if nothing was done there and in fact it is a lot better than people realize. >> rose: so you -- read leon panetta's book. >> i have not read spite but you have read what -- >> yes. i mean i am not a cheerleader for obama foreign policy. i don't think there is, certainly i say in the article, national security president i don't think anybody would consider him great on that dimension he is pretty much a normal post vietnam national security president, somebody who does, in fact go out and bomb people. >> rose: much different from

bush? >> no that's the point bush was not a normal post -- he actively wanted a war and was looking for an excuse for it. so obama's return to normal at this on that which, you know, considering the alternative is a good thing. >> rose: i have heard you say one thing, you know, the economy is not as good as it ought to be, isn't the fault of the president but he did get medicare passed not medicare but the. >> affordable care act. >> rose: got that passed, obamacare but not doing so good in foreign policy. i am not happy with him on foreign policy, just like the rest of them. >> this is -- >> rose: you say sea great president even though he did the one thing you cite is healthcare and nothing else. >> no, financial reform and the economy. >> rose: financial reform. >> and the economy go ahead i said the economy is not great but much better if there had been no stimulus and a lot better than any other major western country, so, you know, it is a curve, grade him on a curve which you should, it is actually looking pretty good. >> rose: so he is doing well

compared to what? >> take your list of president, i would -- there is fdr and all of that, but since -- >> rose: we are going to compare him to with fdr or washington. >> since fdr, lbj who gave us medicare and medicaid sway big thing. >> rose: and civil rights. >> and civil rights. >> rose: vietnam was there and -- >> right. >> rose: he didn't know how to handle it. >> but then, let me do the reagan comparison, reagan trying to move the country in an opposite direction from where i wanted it to go, reagan is touted as a great president but the fact is -- formative by guess who? president obama. >> right. but -- okay. but, in fact, in fact, he wasn't, that's the amazing thing, if you were somebody who wanted to see the u.s. welfare state unravel, if you were somebody who want to see a radically smaller government reagan did not deliver that, in the end he left the structure pretty much the way it was. obama on the other hand has left us with healthcare is now

essentially a right of legal residence of the united states. so obama has achieved a permanent transformation of america a way reagan did not. and by my analysis that makes obama a more important president in the end than reagan was. >> rose: there is also this, the mention of financial reform, those, there are those who say we have fewer financial institutions, we can still have -- we still have too big to fail, and 2008 could happen again. >> it could, although -- >> rose: reform was not enough to stop -- >> there are two things. one is that we didn't end too big to fail but we did actually create a system where institutions are too big to fail can be subject to stricter disciplines than those who are not and that's very important and we now have in place the

mechanisms to essentially, there was a problem in 2008, there was a case for seizing citigroup and bank of america but not clear the legal authority was there and now it is, and so if there is another crisis, and we have some protection against it in the form of this additional regulation, and much stronger tools in the form of -- >> rose: there would have been no question even at the time, bernanke and certainly paulson and geithner did not believe there was legal authority to save lehman brothers. >> so there is a structure that would make it better and make it possible to have a much more effective response, a lot depends, right f if next financial crisis happens when president cruz and ron paul are running, but the tools are there for a good administration to do a much better job. again,. >> rose: a perfect but better, imperfect but better tools. >> yes. even when fdr did social security, he onlyovered half the workforce, he didn't include healthcare, which upset a lot of

people. presidents who appear in the rear-view mirror to have been great and transformative even if they were often appear to have done only a half job when they were in office, so when you say, oh, we haven't gotten everything we wanted from obama, a lot shorter of what we wanted but we got a lot more than from anybody since lbj and lbj, you know -- so that makes him a big died den deal as president. >> rose: so what do you think of this lawsuit in washington in which .. hang greenberg is suing. >> unbelievable. >> yes,. >> there is no proper english word that will get that but actually, it is useful forget ago lot of information. i will be shocked if he can extract any money, but i am actually glad it is happening because i think we are learning something. >> rose: i should announce you are leaving princeton at the end of this year. >> yes, i am retiring from

princeton, i am in my sixties and retiring from police on the and taking up aath

military alliance of nato, so for me, you remember, ten years ago, at this table, i came and told you that there was a problem with pakastani alliance, with america's alliance with pakistan. >> right. >> rose: it proved wrong. today i say that there is a real

problem with turkey alliance. turkey is, if it falls turkey will no longer have to be considered a reliable ally. and we should foes a question of turkey to nato. >> rose: the interesting thing about it n a moment of this kind of being right up against human catastrophe, what may very well happen, you have somebody, a nation laying conditions on its participation. you have to make a pledge against assad, you have to put a no fly stone here before we will participate, and isis is knocking on the door of kobani. >> of course. in a way, it is a very complicated story, and it is true as president obama said that it is the most contradictory situation possible, this is true, but for the moment, what we know that in the front line of the fight

against isil there is valiant kurdistan, the kurdish people are in the front line. they are fighting for us, their freedom is our freedom, if they are saved, we are saved. all of the beheaded, poor guys, poor heroes. the kurdish people are fighting for their memory and our, turk is blocking the border. >> rose: why are they doing it? >> they are doing it because they are, mr. erdogan who is a crazy man, has the obsession of a free kurdistan. because between free kurdistan and triumphant isil he chooses isil, he plays with fire, he plays with the devil, he makes the choice of islamic state

against a free kurdistan. what we, what we know is that kurdistan is probably the very no, moll, the very example of this moderate islam, secular, preaching equality between women and men, that we are looking for everywhere. it is here, this moderate islam is incarnated by this kurdish resistance. for mr. erdogan, this is probably a danger. >> rose: do you think that iraq will remain a unified state or will break up into kurdistan and shia territories. >> there is a possibility that she breaks but there is also the possibility of great diplomacy led by america, if america has great dip city, which would consist in saying to the kurds, we help you, in a consistent way, in a solid way, but one

condition, if, is that you maintain the original balance that you don't break the borders and such, this is the deal which america and europe could do. we come to your rescue, we save kobani, we save your families and your homes, but we don't touch the borders in the area. this is doable. but let's try. let's try. obama, europe union, america, i don't know, this is doable but we need for that imagination and courage. >> rose: but you also need for that troops on the ground and nobody seems to be willing to provide those troops and you worry about whether the iraqi army is prepared to do it. >> you have the, the troops you have today is kurds, male and female. >> rose: is that enough to save -- >> if we gave weapons to these women and men soldiers, if we

gave real weapons, it might be enough. let's try. for the moment -- >> rose: let's talk about, first of all, get to ukraine and the russians, but liberty, i can't you went early to libya, it seems now that people look to libya as a failure. >> remember the sentence of one of the prime ministers of, he was asked years ago what do you think of french revolution? and he said, come on, it is a little early to say. it is a little early to say. two centuries after. so three years after the libyan revolution it is still a little early to call it a failure. for me, what i feel is that you have to compare what is happening in libya, what is happening in syria, what is the result of nonintervention and what is the result of intervention? result of intervention in libya is --

reason of nonenter invention is, plus 200,000 dead, plus islamic state, on one side, kals,. >> deaths on either side. >> plus 200,000 dead on the side of the nonintervention, the result of intervention is better than the result of nonintervention. >> rose: okay. let's go to ukraine. you have a column that i just referenced earlier in which you call for a marshal plan for ukraine. what is that? >> i call it a marshal plan. it was a simple one that was held in vienna .. organized by a man called with people from germany, banks, i have and so on and i proposed an economic rebuilding of ukraine, number one, world economic forum being

held in kiev in uh crepe, number 2, number 2, an, in ukraine, the state issue of bonds, give a guarantee of imf. >> rose: not philanthropist. >> buy bonds which is -- >> buy bonds. they want a signature, the federal reserve, the european bank and the imf could, if we really want ukraine to come to europe, if we really believe inc case, which is a case of mr. obama, mr. obama, seems to believe that he is sincere when he claims he wants to go out of the hands of putin and into europe, then we have to pay the price. why does not the imf, bank of europe and federal reserve give the signature to a huge issue of

bonds by the government of poroshenko, this is an example i gave toñr vienna to the symposi. >> finally you are making a play in paris. >> i tried, i want to speak about the fall of europe, like gibbon, fall of the roman empire. my feeling and i am very sad to say that is that we might be facing the fall of europe, no upon defense, no economic policy, no common foreign policy, look in front of ukraine, thish think about a concern about the their banks. we are concerned, franceable about, the germans are concerned about their gas. no common destiny so for me this is one symptom of the fall of europe. this great dream. i was bred by this dream of a unified europe, real good and

real, partner of america, this dream is collapsing today. so i wrote this play in order to warn, give a wakeup call to my fellow citizens of europe, on what is happening today. >> rose: but the play is about you preparing for speech. >> yes. >> rose: at the time, right before world war 1? >> no. it is me, it is supposed to be, the fiction is me. >> rose: at what time? >> on thei] day of the one centy anniversary of world war i. >> rose: right. >> the hero is a character that is supposed to deliver a speech on europe, big speech, big, values, principles and so on and he is enclosed in a little room in sar yes slow, of, search gentleman slow and for the first time he speaks easily, who writes .. for the the issues time, he is presented, he

cannot, the speech does not come. all the threadsñr are broken, al these things in which he believes so muchñi all his lifee sees it collapsing in front of his eyes. at the end of the play, at the same time he becomes mad and he finds the solution. hhe has -- >> rose: the vision? >> he has the vision of the solution for europe tomorrow, there is the end of the play. >> rose: great to see you. thank you. >> great to see you back. >> rose: the play in paris, called hotel europe? >> hotel europe. >> bernard-henri levy. back in a moment. >> massimo bottura is here the most talked about chef, his restaurant osteria francescana is ranked third in the world, advancing traditional italian recipes with the modern. his book is never trust a skinny

italian chef. here is a look. >> >> i am born and i grew up in a land of fast cars and good food. >> i learned since i was a kid toñi think very quick, as the romance would say, think quick, do it very quick but slowly. ♪xd >> that means have a, have a very quick thought but do it slowly, because you need a lot of time to do something. they interpret what i am thinking and they know what i am thinking. so here we go. >> we drop this. >> rose: that is very nice. that's a nice promotion for the book. but why the title? >> because. >> rose: never trust a skinny.

>> no, the title came up in a trip in los angeles, 2001, we went to this, two friends invited us for a dinner so we walk into the kitchen and there was this big display, never trust a skinny it tall y'all chef and everyone laughed, ha, ha, ha, and i was looking at myself, and what? they have to trust me. and i am a skinny italian chef so i was like, i am going to do any best to have everyone trust me, and, you know, but the thing is that if there is anyway to take distance and to stay on this ground, and irony is very important, to after about yourself, to laugh about things, not anot to take yourself, you w -- we are cooks. >> rose: why did you decide to write this book? >> why? because, you know, my

colleagues, my -- the great colleagues, the people i respect the most, they were pushing me. >> rose: yes. >> come on, sign the contract, sign the contract. you have to put black on white, your ideas. when you talk at the conferences, you know, people are listening to you. you influence people so, you know, so at one the point i said took i am going to write a book, and then step-by-step, it is my wife, you know, we were trying to do -- put down ideas one after the other after the other, and then in the book there is the story of my 28 years of career. >> rose: you pay tribute to a the french chef, a spanish chef, veron, and an italian mother. your mother. >> i know. in a small glass like this, i compress all my gastronomic life, it is like i did pass and beans, it is the most popular plate you can have, it is like

beans, pasta and beans, pasta and beans. pasta with bean sauce and my mom was always telling me about putting particle january into the beans when you make pasta and beans because it is so good, it is so mommy, i would say, so at the end i compress this gastrotom pick life into a glass, at the bottom, you have like this royal, you know how the french, they use royal as royal, cheeseburger, royal with cheese. you know, royal, so it is just a pigskin, beans, and a little bit of fogra and layers of things and it reminds you in the palate, all of this flavor that comes from the past, from the memory, from the country, and then you arrive at one point that if i finish the glass with the air of rosemary, so here, at

the bottom there is ducaf and royal, there is air of rosemary, so something that disappear in one second because rosemary is very invading on the plate but the middle, instead of pasta, what i express? i put like particle january as my mom would keep telling me, sliced very thin, as it was pasta so between saran and ducasa, my grandmother, that's the point. >> rose: now, is she responsible for you becoming a chef? >> yes, she is. >> rose: yes. >> she is the one who always is pushing me to do things and to follow my passion, to not listen to anyone, to trust myself. >> rose: i assume there is an easy answer to that, but why not rome? why -- >> because it is not about the place you are. it is about who you are. it is about what you have to express. you know, i fail so

comfortable, as i said, of the slow food and fast cars, you know, there is a place where maserati, ferrari, lamborghini, are built and, you know, if people, they come from all over the world to meet mr. ferrari, or, you know, to buy a maz are , why don't they come if i have the right idea to eat at osteria francescana, so we decide to be there, and to open there. it was cheap, it was just -- we have enough of what we have to do, and it is the land of, you know, i always say in my veins there is balsam mick vinegars but the muscles are like particle january, then i drink too much lamb buts mexico so my brain is like whoa .. >> rose: a via -- >> a via, per via. >> make simple the difficult

things. >> rose: ah, that's a life story. >> yes. that's a life story. make look simple, like even a plate like sardini in three days, it is a very difficult expression how to create the perfect sardine and play joke with everything, everything is hike that, but it is like, it is the most simple thing, one sardine, and that sardine tastes heaven, you know, and it is made simple, i don't care about, you know, show how great we are. this is con tell rare cuisine, it is no more about fireworks or, you know .. magician playing to show that we can take off some rabbit from the hat, but it is about attic, put the attic close to the static.

>> rose: attic close to the static? >> yes. that's why. i am so chose to my artisan, my farmers, cheese maker, fisherman, they deliver, they arrive people, they deliver fantastic ingredients to my restaurant and that i use to transfer the motion and modernize. >> transfer emotion? >> i think the book is about that. >> rose: transfer emotion? >> yes. when you chew parmesan crust, it is emotion. you go back to your childhood, i see people cry eating the potato truffle, you know, potato inside a potato that is like so emotional, like people like really get -- >> rose: at what point did you go to work for ferran in ebuli? >> it was 2000.

>> rose: and how did you get a job? >> ferran came to my restaurant, ten years. he came to my restaurant, he had a meal, he called me to the table and he said, you want to come? and i said, when? next season? and i am going to -- i said, yes. >> rose: why didn't you go then? >> because i was trapped in the beginning to understand his all new techniques that were coming out, that was 2000, so it was not like now, so it was really, i was really into crazy new tech unique that they were like changing the process, perspective but actually when i arrived there, i realized that it was not about technique. it was about freedom. freedom of expressing yourself. in that moment, i understood

that a great chef can express yourself with a potato or a parmesan, not just with caviar on lobster or white truffle. >> rose: here is a conversation i did with ferran at this table and he talked about the chefs who have contributed to ebuli. roll the tape. >> when you look at all the people in the past that today are the most influential cooks in the world, chefs in the world i knew something special was going on, a spirit of ethics, honesty, sharing, liberty, freedom, risk, passion, in any kind of business, in any kind of business it is the dream that you have it, the hope is you have this. and this is created by all the people that pass through. there is the strength that we -- there

are lots of young chefs that have this. not so much the dishes themselves, but the philosophy. >> today i was a culinary citizen of america to give a speech to this young cooks and i said, guys, remember one thing, you always have to have to be great chefs, you always have to have three ingredients in your backpack, you have to travel, you have to get con familiar it in add wise way not a wild way because you will never, ever from, but you have to have three ingredient, humility, passion, and dream. humility keeps you grounded, you keep learning, if you are 25, 35, 55, wow keep learning, evolving. passion. this is a very hard job, it is

not about being a rock star. it is about being, you know, just hard work every day and a little bit of talent. that is the point. and passion, when the other people are liken joy your friend, your friends are enjoy, you, enjoying, you are there, and working. every day. and dream is the most important thing. if you can dream it, as he was saying, you make it. >> rose:. >> take a look at these dishes and then move on to some final things here. the first thing is take a look, these are images from the book. the memory of monadela. >> yes, yes. memory of a bologna sandwich. very easy. came back from feran, the first thing, gastronomic critics, other colleagues said, what is he going to do? he is going to make this -- that's a great idea.

that's bologna foam, it is going to be like that. but i went so deep into those memories of when my mom was getting the bologna sandwich in my backpack, going to school, saying, bonza, you never eat, you know, you have to eat, and, you know, that is tribute to my mom and my first 14 years. >> rose: take a look. here is oops, i dropped the lemon tart. wwe saw the video of this. >> it is so -- this is one of the most important plates, and the story was fantastic. that night, we were ready to serve, me and my pastry chef, a japanese who is like the most incredible technique, you know, fantastic, and he is like, at that point, we were ready to serve, he dropped one of the two

lemon tarts on the counter. on the plate. half on the plate, half out, and he was like, ready to kill himself, the japanese was missing something, it is like, waa! i said, taka, don't kill yourself, it is so beautiful. look at that. captured the moment. that is poetry in every day life. that means if you keep that space open for po poetry, from all the obligation you have, you go to the bank and accountant and lawyer and this and that you have that space, you can imagine a beautiful broken lemon tart. so we rebuild two tarts in that moment in a perfect way, then, the precision, the imperfection, imperfect way, it became an anchor. >> rose: so number 3 is five ages of parmesan. >> maybe this is the most important dish i ever create, is is become, it became the dish of the decade for italian ga

gastronomy, 2010, 2011 on the 50th anniversary, and that is to the way to express my territory and i start reflecting aboutç that and when you -- and after, you know, in 1998 i met penini, this incredible man who is a cheese maker and he said, mass know, i have to tell you, the plate is trait but start thinking about the aging process more than the texture so that means, be more respectful for the process of the ingredients than to show you how great you are on technique. from that moment, i started exploring the aging process and do my own experiment in bringing the cheese on a different level,

and express the slowly passing of the timing on the aging process, 24, 30, 36, 40, 50, you see the time that is passing. that is the fall, the autumn, the winter, the summer, that is, i think -- >> rose: the next one is the crunchy part of the lasagne. >> ah. that -- this is another emotional dish. >> rose: yes. >> it is the corner, the experience of it, the corner of the lasagne, that when grandmother arrives and brings the big pan of lasagne, you have every experience, every -- like every other kid from there, that corner, a little burned, that everyone knows is the best part of the lasagne. >> rose: all right. let's talk about art too before we -- art has a place in the

kitchen? or it has a place in the restaurant? >> >> or it has a place in your soul? >> art is the highest way to communicate is the highest point of the thought of the human thought and art makes feasible the invisible. and art became for us our landscape of ideas, and my wife introduced me to that, to contemporary art and, you know, we together we are living every day in the -- in our surroundings, by art, by thought, by -- and, you know, from sculpture of a glass of water to the powder of a vase, you know, the power, the powder of a 2000 -- drop on the floor saying, i am not defeating my past.

i am starting and rebuilding my past with a contemporary mind. that is my cuisine, exactly my cuisine. i look at my past in a critical way not a nostalgic way to bring the best of the past into the future, this is exactly what this is. >> rose: it is great to have you here. >> thank you very much. >> rose: it is fabulous. the book is called never trust a skinny italian chef, better than reading the book but you should read the book and then you will be more encouraged to go to -- if you get in. >> come on. you can come, you know. we are going to push you in. we are going to push you in. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> for more about this program and early episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. >>

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funding for charlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 2002. >> american express. additional funding provided by -- >> >> and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> you are watching pbs.

every single bite needed to be -- >> twinkies in there. it's like a great big hug. >> about as spicy as i can handle. my parents put chili powder in my baby food. >> french fries all over the table. >> a lot of chewing.