>> charlie: welcome to the program. tonight an exclusive interview with king abdullah of jordan. >> this is a muslim problem. we need to take ownership of this. we need to stand up and say what is right and what is wrong. this is no reflection of our religion. this is evil, and all of us have got to make that decision. we have to stand up and say this is the line that is drawn in the sand and those that believe in right should stand on this side and those that don't have to make a decision and stand on the other. it's clearly a fight between good and evil. i think it's an generational fight. as i said to president putin, i think this is a third world war by other means. >> charlie: king abdullah next. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been made possible by

the following. >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services world wide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: tonight, an exclusive interview with king abdullah. the king came to washington at a crucial time. jordan is part of u.s.-led coalition against i.s.i.s. and has born a heavy burden from flee of refugees into jordan. the king met with senior white house officials and today with president obama. we spoke yesterday at his hotel in washington and began with the threat of i.s.i.s.

here is that conversation. your majesty, thank you very much for an opportunity to talk to you during this visit to the united states. let me talk about i.s.i.s. and what you see as the threat today from i.s.i.s. >> i.s.i.s. and their like. what we have to understand is this is a global jihadist movement and it's not just the threat we're seeing today, although the priority for many of us is dealing with syria and iraq, we have to remember that also we need to look at the sinai, we need to look at libya, the other elephant in the room, somalia, mali, nigeria. so we have to have, sooner rather than, i hope, later, a strategic, realistic approach to deal with all these organizations. they're the same, different

names but s.&t beliefs. >> charlie: what does this holistic approach look like? >> reaching out to each other. we in jordan are primarily now with syria and iraq. we are in partnership with other countries. i have been talking about the importance to reaching out to african friends, two countries that i think are going to be the lead in dealing with these issues in africa, obviously the president of gabon dealing with boko haram on one side, with the central african states. president of kenya down in the south dealing with shabab and moving toward somalia. this is an issue we have to combine our strategies and this is sort of one of the reasons i'm here in washington. i know we have to concentrate on syria and iraq, but we really have to have a pan-regional approach to this issue. >> charlie: but with respect to iraq and syria first, the

question arises about air strikes and are they sufficient to stop i.s.i.s. >> no. i mean, we knew the air strikes are extremely important and can you imagine the situation without them. air strikes themselves will not defeat i.s.i.s. the issue now is how do you develop the ground play. in iraq it's slightly different, though we have to sort of combine syria and iraq together. you can't have solving one situation and have to think about solving the other. we have to walk and chew gum at the same time on these issues. iraq is a slightly different set of circumstances because we're working with the iraqi government to be able to assist them against i.s.i.s. supporting the kurds is vital, getting them the proper equipment so they can also be able to deal with i.s.i.s. with efficiency and, most importantly, reaching the tribes

in sunni in west anbar that are under tremendous threat of i.s.i.s. a lot of tribes are being executed by i.s.i.s. and there's a time factor there that is extremely important. what you don't want to see is, if we delay too much, that the local population being massacred feel they have no resort but to surrender and come under i.s.i.s. there are some operational delays through no fault of anybody's because of capacity of the iraqi armies to be able to alleviate a lot of the cities under i.s.i.s.'s control. these are some of the issues we have to deal with and why i'm here in washington, we have to reach out to the sunni tribes in western iraq sooner than later. >> charlie: what's jordan's rolling? >> we are part of the coalition. we have been working in syria as part of the coalition. we have been talking to the iraqis, how we can assist them in western iraq. i think that's going to increase in the very near future. and then the role of jordan

elsewhere, because we're part of, i think, this regional international capability. so a very small country but with many, i think, responsibilities throughout the region to combat this global threat. >> charlie: there's some question of n.a.t.o. training troops and some reports they may be trained in jordan. >> looking for -- we're talking to the iraqis. they have some interest in us doing some training for them. president prime minister abadi came to visit us weeks ago. a very good visit. we opened all our doors to see what we could do to help the iraqis. obviously looking at training free syrian army against i.s.i.s. is something that's ongoing in discussions, but how do we get to the tribes again inside syria, eastern syria specifically, that are fighting back against i.s.i.s.? again, one of the problems is there is a perception in eastern

syria, syria in general but also western iraq, that the international community only really gets excited when minorities get jeopardized. so the christians or the kurds, but when it comes to the sunnis, they're being ignored. so this is why the time factor is very important. we have to reach out to the tribes in western iraq and eastern syria to make them feel -- >> charlie: what do you mean, reach out? >> get equipment to them, get support to them. there are ways of doing that that i have been talking about for several months. but by the end of the year, action has to be taken. therthey're not things i would e to discuss on this venue but things we're going to have to pull the trigger on, so to speak, in the next several weeks. >> charlie: does it include goreddiajordanian troops? >> i believe at the end of the day whether in iraq or syria, it has to be done by the local

populations themselves. but getting them supplies and support is another issue. so how do you physically get them support? there is air play at the moment in strikes. do you get supplies to them through air? do you get them supplies through ground? and how do you protect and support that? those are things we discuss but i don't want anybody to think we're talking about foreign boots on the ground to solve the problem. at the end of the day, syrians have to solve the syrian's problem and iraqis have to solve their problem. >> charlie: is that a solution in syria? >> syria is not a quick fix. part of the complications with syria is there's two issues there. there's technically two wars which complicates the discussion of syria. there's the war of regime change in the west, and the war against i.s.i.s. in the east.

so, again, using the american vernacular of chewing gum and walking at the same time, that's part of the problem. >> charlie: and in the west, assad is the enemy, and in the east i.s.i.s. is the enemy? >> to make it very simple, yes. that's part of the complications when you're trying to look at solving the problem. so also create the problem, so the discussions we've had in congress the past few days, different people have an idea of what they think is a priority, so that adds to the complication. >> charlie: what do you think is the priority? >> well, global jihadists is the problem. >> charlie: the priority of overthrowing assad? >> in our view, that's the immediate threat. >> charlie: that's the american view as well. >> i think because to have the mass executions we're seeing is how do we get on the ground to save people. but doesn't mean bashar is a nice person and the regime has done wonderful things.

so there are still people who feel does this mean the regime gets off scot-free, so that's part of the complications. sooner or later, i believe the only solution to syria is a political solution. >> charlie: i want to come to that, but, at the same time, it is argued here -- in fact, secretary hagel said to me, if we inflict damage on i.s.i.s. from the air or ground, it benefits assad. that's the reality of the battleground. >> yes, but don't forget that i think it was their strategy, the syrian regime over the past year and a half, not to hit the extremist units. they were hitting the moderate units, allowing sort of the extremist groups to gain ground to create atrocities so that they could win the p.r. battle. >> charlie: you have been asked this many times. how serious a mistake will history record the failure to support several years ago the

moderate forces in syria before i.s.i.s. had the traction and the power it now has? >> well, the problem is, i think, that from the northern border, a lot of the equipment was going from the very beginning to the more extremist units and not to the moderate forces, and i think this is why we're in this mess to begin with. >> charlie: could you have prevented that in some way? >> not jordan. >> charlie: not you specific, but the united states and other countries were interested in supporting the moderate forces at the time. was it and a impossible task to arm them and to give them -- >> no, it was not an impossible task. it was, i think, maybe not understanding the rules of the game of where some -- who the units were on the ground and who was benefiting from getting the equipment and the weaponry. and which units were getting stronger as a benefit of the supply in the north. the south was a completely

different story. >> charlie: yeah, but you know forces inside syria. my assumption would be you understood that, and my question would be was your voice listened to at the time when the question of supplying the smortd forces was -- the moderate forces was on the table? >> if you want a simple answer, no. >> charlie: it was not listened to? >> well, it was listened to but not acted on with the energy i had hoped. >> charlie: and now we have a much more difficult task. >> correct. >> charlie: when you look at syria today, how do you -- so, for example, the turks raised the question of assad before they would even support kobani under siege. i mean, it seems like assad is becoming, among some of the coalition partners, the primary issue rather than the secondary

issue. >> thus the complications of syria. >> charlie: which is what i want you to speak to. >> so, look, at the end of the day, there has to be a political solution, and the way i think a lot of us are trying to get to is how do you get the modern opposition and what does a moderate opposition mean to the table with the regime and finding a political solution? because the way i have been seeing it the past two years, the more one side supports, let's say, the opposition, others will support the regime, and the more that continues, then basically syria becomes a completely unstable state and it's only the extremists that benefit from complete chaos. so if we're going to sort of bring syria back into the light, the only way we can do that is to find a political solution. now, the problem in the middle of that at the moment is

bashar's future. so how do we get around to doing that? in my view, i think the russians play a very important role because the russians at the end of the day help play the guarantor for the future and safety of the aloites which are a major piece of the dynamics. if we do pursue a political track, it's where the russians come into this which can help us achieve a political solution. >> charlie: which begs the question, are the russians prepared to do that on behalf of their relationship with syria? >> well, in my view, you've got now this phenomenon that's created a problem for all of us in the international community and that's the issue of foreign fighters. so now you have foreign fighters coming from all over the world coming to fight along i.s.i.s. in syria and today in iraq. if you look at from the russian point of view, chechen extremist

fighters are coming in to fight in syria and iraq which will be problematic because they go back and create problems. not only that, all the other jihadists who are looking for the next place to fight will also go back and cause problems. so they have a problem, i believe, if not slightly more because to have the numbers involved than, say, other european countries -- france, germany, italy, or anywhere else. so i think we've all in the same boat. you would probably be surprised we're picking up chinese from stern china and syria and in iraq and actually not too far away from our borders. so this is becoming a global problem. >> charlie: and how do you deal with that global problem? >> well, there is, on the other side, i personally believe that we as arab and muslim countries, as i said to the opening of parliament two months ago, this is a muslim problem, we need to take ownership of this, we need to stand up and say what is right and what's wrong.

this is no reflection of our religion. this is evil, and all of us have got to make that decision. we have to stand up and say, this is the line that is drawn in the sand and those that believe in right should stand on this side and those that don't have to make a decision stand on the other. it's clearly a fight between good and evil. i think it's a generational fight. as i said to president putin, i think this is a third world war by other means -- >> charlie: let me just stop. you are saying this is a third world war by other means and that's what you said to putin and what you will say to the president of the united states? >> what i believe i've already said to the president i've said to other leaders, this is a generational fight and i hope that -- a generational fight, i hope the short term is military, the medium term is the security aspect of it but the long term one will be the ideological one. what i'm saying is we as muslims have got to look ourselves in the mirror and realize that we

have this problem, make this very difficult call, and then all of us come together and clearly sort of say that, you know, these people are renegades, these people have nothing to do with islam. i mean, we have this argument at the moment that these are extremist muslims and moderate muslims. i don't believe that. i am a muslim. why are you calling me a moderate muslim? i'm a muslim. i don't know what these people are. >> charlie: what baghdadi is. our religion doesn't condone the execution of people and raping and beheading. there are other leaders in the arab world who have had enough and want to comout and say enough is enough. >> charlie: why isn't that an easy call for muslim leaders? why isn't that an easy call to say, this doesn't represent the religion. >> you will see that more and more and you will see more of that. >> charlie: what's an example

of that, to see it from someone other than you? >> just give it some time. there are discussions between a lot of us that are coming together to say that we have to make a stand. and, as i said, because of the total globility of this issue, that we all have to coordinate and as i said because we're not just dealing with the issue in iraqfish -- >> charlie: it's yemen and all over the world, but you have to deal with the immediacy of it in terms of iraq and syria. >> yes, and -- >> charlie: and in syria, they have more revenue and more social media and more weapons -- >> almost instantaneously you have to look at libya. that's the other elephant in the room. >> charlie: speak to the risk in libya. there has not been much focus on it. >> surprisingly, everybody ignores libya which is also probably just as complicated and

desperate. why does it take major atrocities there for the international arena to focus attention. so i think as we're getting the strategy and tactics in place of syria and iraq, then people will start to focus on libya. but by i hope the end of this year, beginning of next year, countries will be coming together to start talking about libya. closer are a problem to the europeans and the united states, especially to those on the northern mediterranean. you will see the italians, french and the spanish taking the lead on that. but something we have to deal with because it also affects central africa. >> charlie: are you meeting some opposition as you try to make this case from people? >> not from the leaders that i have been talking to, not at all. they're more how do we all come together. >> charlie: what's your road map? >> i like to keep the road map to us at this stage. >> charlie: but some suggest that some members of the

coalition say, yes, i.s.i.s. is a huge problem and we have to do something about it, but they're also sunnis like we are, and our opposition for dominance in the region is with iran. you've heard that? >> well with, again, you're going to have -- >> charlie: and shia versus sunni. >> well, i don't believe in the shia versus sunni conflict. we're all one people, and that doesn't help. i think it goes deeper or slightly different than that. but if we look at this major international phenomenon, there's a common ground that brings us all together and i'm hoping that's where a lot of the leaders go. >> charlie: there was a leader in the middle east who raised the specter of the sheer crescent. >> yes, and i raised it from a political view. and, again, some from the jihadist global problem again for the political point of view,

we need to be able to tackle it. i don't believe that from a religious point of view there is any obstacles between us, and actually it was last summer or the summer before last where some irresponsible members on both sides of the divide, clerics try to create a clash inside between shia and sunnis. and we had a conference where we brought sunni and shia leaders from all over the world to say whatever is happening at syria and lebanon at that point has nothing to do with interreligious strife and the most moving part was at the luncheon we held on the second day where two imams stood up, iraqis, one shia and one sunni, who said, he's shia, i'm sunni, we're both brothers, and whatever happens in syria and iraq has nothing to do with religion. >> charlie: so, therefore, tell me how you see the

relationship on the ground between iran, who considers i.s.i.s. an enemy, the united states, who considers i.s.i.s. an enemy, jordan, who considers i.s.i.s. an enemy, saudi arabia who now considers i.s.i.s. an enemy. >> the gulf countries who consider i.s.i.s. an enemy. it's therring, the iranian air strikes, you said on the interview, will be interesting to see how that plays out. >> charlie: how might it play out? what do you see people saying to you privately? >> i have to get back and see what they have to say. obviously, like all regions, there's always going to be tensions and conflicts because of countries, border disputes. you're sort of implying religious problems. it's more historical. >> charlie: i'm asking -- so if the tensions are based more on historical issues than religious ones. >> charlie: so the question of dominance in the region is more

historical than religious? >> power plays you find all over the world between bigger states and smaller states that have been there for centuries. >> charlie: can you imagine iran being part of a solution in syria because they have influence also with assad but also need assad because of the syrian territory helps them in their relationship with lebanon. >> the priority is hesbollah more than mo shara. >> charlie: do you sense the will is there on the part of the russians? >> i think the russians going back to the foreign fighters problem need, as we go, to sort of start to unravel this phenomenon, and syria is a good place to start because of, you know, damascus or syria is not that far away and this problem

of stability that i.s.i.s., syria, iraq, is presenting actually goes back to effect easily. the foreign fighters are not just from chesneyia. we are seeing those from uzbekistan and others from the stanes coming. >> charlie: and why are they doing? are they coming because they believe in the i.s.i.s. mission or -- >> well, part of it is the media play i.s.i.s. and their groups are doing are quite successful because they take cherry-picking bits of the qur'an and say this is what the qur'an stands for which is completely and utterly untrue. and they have been successful in media in reaching out to the youth all over the world, frustrating people without jobs,

and the other part of recruiting is they're offering very good salaries. part of the problem we had with i.s.i.s. at the beginning and part of the reason the air strikes were so needed is the oil industry alone inside of syria, was netting them about $1 billion a year. so the salary for a recruit joining i.s.i.s. is about $1,000 a month, which is the equivalent of a colonel's pay in our armed forces. so you have these different aspects of how recruiting was working. what we're doing to fight back now is to explain to people that all these things you're hearing as the manifestos for example of baghdadi have nothing to do with the qur'an, but part of the problem of the major recruiting issue -- and i'm sure in america, in certain sectors, this doesn't go down well -- is

that the core issue in the middle east is still the israeli-palestinian one, and until we solve that, that is a major recruitment for extremist groups. now -- >> charlie: you told me, for example, that when the war in gaza was taking place, recruitment by i.s.i.s. went sky high because they use it, even though it's not connected. >> all extremists, all these jihadist groups use the injustice of what's happening to the palestinians in jerusalem as a rallying call. now, i know there will be a lot of comments made after i say this that that's not true. what is true is that's what the jihadists use as a recruiting element. actually, since the air strikes have happened, i think the amount of recruiters that crossed the border into i.s.i.s. have gone up to about 3,000. so when you saw young women and

children and the high death count, we saw an immense amount of recruiting of young people into i.s.i.s. >> charlie: when you look at the forces on one side -- the united states, the coalition partners, you, saudi arabia, the emirates -- you look at the goals of iran, why is this a tough fight? i.s.i.s. has money, clearly, is able to recruit, clearly, but this is overwhelming force that's possible. or why am i naive? >> again, you have to look at the complexities of what allowed them such a success rate at the beginning. they were limited inside syria. the syrian regime was purposely not targeting them. targeting all the moderate units, so they were allowed to grow and establish themselves. >> charlie: they did that

purposefully, obviously, because they wanted to see i.s.i.s. grow? >> well, it was other groups, and out of that came i.s.i.s., so that they can win the p.r. game to get the swing vote behind them to show there's people a lot worse than us and they were very successful in doing that. when they entered iraq in july, the uprising that happened in western iraq was not because the sunni tribes had any affinity for i.s.i.s. it was the frustration with baghdad for many, many years because the sunnis felt there was no political inclusion into the future of iraq. that's something we had discussed not just as jourdainians but the americans for many, many years, and it's that frustration that completed with the entrance of i.s.i.s. into iraq in july. with president abadi, now prime minister abadi, he has reached out to the sunnis, and i think

the atmospherics are better. but, again, there's a time factor. if he doesn't deliver some of the promises to the sunni tribes that they are part of iraq, that there is a future, that could backlash. so, i mean, i sort of am trying to explain to an american audience, we have kurdistan, in a way we have shiastan, but we never have had a sunnistan. so unless we solve that part of the puzzle of iraq, then the sunnis will always fe isolated and to an extent betrayed. >> charlie: but sunnis are the best to explain that to them. you have to promise them that the shia prime minister is going to reach out and wants to have a relationship but the people best able to do that because of history i assume is fellow sunnis. >> to an extent. but again, i think there are a lot of iraqis, whether kurd, shia or sunni, that believe in a united iraq, and you've got to give those people the benefit of

the doubt. but there is other elements playing inside iraq. you mentioned iran. iran, i don't think, would like to see a strong, vibrant iraq for all these reasons. so there is always internal play and pressures on iraqi government to make sure that the sunnis don't get sort of the things they want and the way that they want. so that's an uphill struggle. but going back to i.s.i.s., you know, i think the prime minister abadi is committed. he has pure i don' bureaucracy s to fight through. we're giving him the benefit of the doubt and we hope he delivers but the clock is ticking. >> charlie: i want to move beyond that, but there is no question in your mind this battle against extremism can be won, and the definition of "won" is what? >> well, first of all, we all have to make a decision what side of this we're on. nations in the arab and islamic

world have to stand up and say we're against this, stand up with the people, say this is a right and wrong of this and we have to make a decision. no longer can we allow complacency. 9/11 was an attack on the united states by an extremist group. they're actually after us. this is a war inside of islam. so we have to own up to it. we have to take the lead and we have to start fighting back and all of us have to make that decision and stand up to the plate and take our responsibilities. >> charlie: and if you do that, supremism can be what, manageable? eradicated? >> well, i don't want to get into the details because a lot of us are talking to each other about how to deal with this. but what happens is, when you clearly define what it is to be a muslim and what these people

are, i think it defines the argument much easier inside of islam of how to deal with this issue. i think a lot of people are actually thinking that i.s.i.s. is something noble to be part of. >> charlie: especially the young. >> especially the young that are being lied to. you know, will have the right arguments to be able -- the proper arguments have not been defined and will be, i think, in the future. >> charlie: you've referred to this many times in this conversation. this seems to be a significant moment and the dialogs are important and yiewcial to come together to figure out how you're going to combat this and it's both ideological, it's both education, it's both stopping the flow of money and a whole range of other things. >> and it takes courage. at the end of the day, we have to be courageous to stand up and face this head on. >> charlie: and what's the risk to that being courageous? >> what's the risk if we don't

do it? for all of us. all of us, not just muslims but christians, jews, buddhists, hindus, everybody else. >> charlie: which raises the question, many friends of yours who worry about jordan and you, they're worried about you at the time because of what was happening in the arab spring, and you were the first to say you believed in the arab spring and you listed a series of reforms you thought were reported for your government and your people. what does the king of jordan fear within his own country and the threat to him and his country? >> i don't fear much. i have the confidence in my people. i have confidence in god. i think the question you want to probably ask is what keeps me up at night. >> charlie: yes. thank you. >> if you're looking from the

challenges of what's going on in the region, you know, we had this issue of fighting i.s.i.s. we were part of an air coalition -- just a little anecdote, my brother was commander of the air force several years ago and when i was in new york and the coals was -e coalition was formed. he and the chief of staff went to the air base where we collected all our pilots. i said, just check. we asked for volunteers. and the chief of staff and my brother stepped forward and said for the strikes of i.s.i.s., we're only looking for volunteers. every single pilot raised his hand to step forward. that's just a reflection of the jordannian forces.

when you went into afghanistan, i went to our special forces and soldiers and said how do you believe to our commitment of fighting the extremists in afghanistan, and i'v everybody s ready to go. i think the more rail is high but where we suffer from is poverty, unemployment. the economy is struggling mainly because of the large number of refugees and the energy in that. >> charlie: we'll come to that -- >> what keeps me up is economy, poverty, unemployment and the people suffering because to have the refugees. >> charlie: because to have the commitment to the refugees, the people have suffered. you saw the president of egypt recently, sisi. he felt compelled to take strong action against the muslim brotherhood. the muslim brotherhood is a factor in jordan? do you feel compelled to take action against them? >> well, no, we haven't.

there are an official organization. we had invited them to be part of the process at the beginning of arab spring. they were the first political organization i actually talked to at the start of arab spring. they made their demands very well known. they wanted to change the constitution. they wanted to change -- they wanted a higher constitutional court. they had a list of things, all of which we have done, by the way. they wanted a national dialogue committee so they could talk about reform. that was set up. they were asked to be part of the national dialogue, and then refused to because, at that point -- don't forget, arab spring was started by young men and women who wanted change. it was hijacked by the muslim brotherhood which was an organized political society. so they're the ones who took over from the youth who wanted change. at that point, in egypt, if you remember, the youth were replaced by the organized muslim brotherhood, and a decision was made, unfortunately, by them

that staying in the street was a better way of going. and jordan if you remember our history, we have been through many, many crises over many, many decades. it's not by accident we're still here and strong. >> charlie: if it's not by accident, it's by what you're still here and strong? >> i think because of our people and because of the relationship that the country has with its leadership and because we're all a united family. so we have been written off for i don't know how many decade. i think my father has been presented -- his late majesty with the same set of questions. so i think we're unified and strong. >> charlie: do you approve of what sisi is doing in egypt? >> any person in that position with the challenges he or she would have, i would commend

them. the set of challenges that he has to do to really help his country are unbelievable. and the main thing that he's trying to do is bring back stability to egypt. we need egypt. egypt is the lynch pin of the middle east. >> charlie: the lynch pin of the middle east? >> they're the center of the middle east for many, many reasons, historically, culturally, religiously, and we all need egypt. and i believe that he is bringing strength to his country and stability to his country. the economy is a major challenge for him, but, statement, he has to deal with instability in sinai, which we're all trying to help him on. he is on the largest -- one of the largest borders of libya, which is, like i said, we're all talking about our concerns with

syria and iraq. margimagine his problems facing libya and what he has to deal with. all of us have to stand by the egyptians and him because he has so much on his plate. when i worry about my challenges and i think of what he has to go through... >> charlie: i want to turn to israeli-palestinian issues, but before that, the refugee question. you have a,million 1/2 refugees. >> we have 1.5 million refugees. over 20% of our population in a year and a half, almost 90% outside refugee camps. only a very small portion in the refugee camps, the rest across the country. eth affected our schooling ti system, healthcare. the schools are going back to double shifts to take care of them. >> charlie: what's the economic measurement of this? >> well, your country has been so gracious and so ma magnanimos in helping us out with its aid

program, so, please, my appreciation to the united states. i wish the rest of the international community could be as helpful. but with this year's budget, the donor aid only covers something like 29%. so we still have a shortfall of $1.9 billion just to cover the refugees out of our budget of $16 billion. >> charlie: this is a responsibility you didn't ask for so who should step forward because it is part of the reality that is happening. you have refugees. i mean, should the united nations be stepping forward? should donor nations be stepping forward? >> because of lack of budget many have downgraded the food please thaibility they could give so that's another burden. >> charlie: beyond economic

and humanitarian, some of these people have very well come because they want to be part of some jihadist threat? >> there's always that threat. part of the problem is vetting the amount of refugees in the country because not all coming are technically refugees. there are some bad apples in that. that's one of the daily concerns we have. we have been fortunate so far in making sure that, you know, we've vetted as many people who have come across the border, but that's not to say we've missed a few. so that's always going to be a concern. >> charlie: turning to israeli-palestinian issues. secretary kerry launched an effort and believed it was possible that he could bring some kind of agreement between palestinians and israelis. it is said that you were right there in the middle of that, that you were there both

advising and encouraging a central part of it. why did it fail? >> well, it hasn't failed yet. it's still an ongoing issue, the door is still open, and i think, if you remember, there was a trilateral meeting between prime minister netanyahu and myself and secretary kerry about ten days ago, which was a very successful meeting. president sisi called in and we had about an hour conversation between the four of us on how to move things forward. >> charlie: this was secretary kerry, you, president sisi -- >> president sisi and prime minister netanyahu. >> charlie: prime minister of israel. >> yes. on how to move forward and the necessity to move the israeli-palestinian issue forward, especially when all of us are dealing now with a much bigger problem which is this international fight against international jihadists. so the world has moved on but if

we don't unravel and solve this problem between israelis and palestinians, we are really going to be fighting this problem with one arm tied behind our back. so how critical it is for the israelis and palestinians so be able to move forward. you know, secretary kerry has some ideas, there were things that were discussed between -- >> charlie: well, what progress did it make? clearly, secretary kerry was very, very passionate about trying to keep quiet what the deal was because he believed if it was given, people would pick at it. what was the essence of the deal? >> obviously, we were part of the process because, when it comes to final status issue, just about every issue has to do with jordan, whether yes ruse le -- whetherjerusalem, border,. so we were able to help overcome a lot of the obstacles.

for the first time i think in the dialogue of the peace process for them investigate talk to the jordannians meant how serious it was and how serious the process was and how close we got to what is actually a very strong final package. for several reasons, we didn't manage to take the final step. >> charlie: what are the reasons? >> both sides had their concerns. >> charlie: trust? trust is part of it. but i think they're back to hopefully overcoming that at the beginning of the year. there are issues being talked about so we're keeping our fingers crossed. >> charlie: so there are still possibilities within the remaining term of the obama administration? >> and has to be because what happens if there's not? i think this is the critical factor that both sides have to understand. we're now moving on to something much bigger which is the global fight, this generational fight. if this thing is still cooking

and not resolved, how are we ever going to succeed on this larger problem? so why is it now that all these governments around the world are sort of either indirectly recognizing the state of israel -- sorry -- the state of palestine or say, in a year or two, if you don't solve the problem we're going to recognize the state of palestine, because to have the foreign fighter problem all the countries are having around the world, they're beginning to realize all roads do lead to jerusalem, and if the israelis and palestinians don't solve the problem, it has an effect with extreme i'm and how it effects their countries. and at the end of the day, the core issue is still the israeli-palestinian problem and jerusalem even though certain people don't like a reference made to that. whether it's true or not, that argument is still being used by the extremists and countries around the world realize they have to solve the problem for their benefit. so it's no longer politics

because of middle east. it now affects the national security of countries around the world. >> charlie: so they have a large incentive to push for an end to this conflict? >> israelis and palestinians, for our sake, need countries around the world to solve the problem because it's affecting all us. >> charlie: they're saying the israelis didn't win the war because of the repercussions of it. >> from that point of view, i think you're correct and if you look at the media outlets especially in the summer, if you looked at most of the international outlets you think would be covering ukraine as the head story, especially in europe, they were not covering ukraine. all headlines were covering this. so the attention shifted. the understanding and the concerns are the core issue today. and so that has to be an understanding by the two players that we've all moved on to something bigger and if you

don't get it, we're all going to pay the price. >> charlie: what does your -- you know well and have many discussions including the one you mentioned with prime minister netanyahu. does he get it? does he get it that, in your judgment, all the things you have laid out here that the world changed, a bigger issue, there's a time demand, and the countries are saying you have to solve this, does he get it? does he feel that, in your judgment? >> i can say the conversation, the four-way conversation between president sisi, myself, secretary kerry, and prime minister netanyahu, it went on -- i mean, sisi called and it was an hour four-way conversation, and it was a really optimistic, sincere conversation, one that left me

with a lot of hope. and the way that everybody was talking about the problem made me feel that they wanted to move forward. >> charlie: hope is not -- it's a precious commodity and you don't see a lot of it these days. what is it that made it hopeful? >> understanding how it effects -- and also what i think israelis need to understand is how, if this continues to go on -- because now we've all moved off to another bigger problem -- how this continues to, then, affect the israeli-jordanian relationship and the egyptian-israeli relationship, because if this thing continues to create a turmoil, it does create tremendous precious on jordan and egypt, and, so, i think there was a tremendous understanding that we have to move the process forward, and i think everybody left that meeting feeling optimistic and geared up to take it to a new

level. >> charlie: have you seen any change since then? >> no. i think the feedback we got from both the egyptians and the israelis and the palestinians -- you will have different maneuverings by different groups and different things come up whether it's the new israeli bill or different -- >> charlie: what do you make of the new israeli bill, by the way? >> it definitely complicates things after we've come out of that wonderful evening. >> charlie: you came out of the meeting hopeful, then you have this vote? >> that makes things more complicated, but, again, i'm looking to, at the beginning of the year, some of the things that were said at the dinner, secretary kerry coming back with the next phase of getting them together. so i'll give everybody the benefit of the doubt, keep any fingers crossed and see what happened. >> charlie: are you worried about a third? >> there is a reason why our field hospital is still there

and we've kept it there since world war i because if you don't solve the problem, there is only an amount of time before there's another one. >> charlie: did you call your ambassador back from israel? >> we called him back for questioning and that was after two years of going back and forth on difficulties and issues we had in jerusalem vis-a-vis the compound, and not being able to get proper responses on how to deal with the issues. to make a long story short, during the asa war, i spoke to the prime minister and said this is serious and we spoke on several occasions and if it continues like this i will have to take action. action, unfortunately, was taken. the prime minister called me the next day after we took that decision. but with all sincerity, he said, listen, we need to deescalate

the tension. we created a set of procedures to make sure that things moved in the right direction and, since then, by the way, we've had the best days of the past 20 years in jerusalem so a willingness and sincerity to move the process forward on all sides. there is calm on fridays and there is procedures being put into place. we hope once the procedures are finalized the ambassador will go back soon. >> charlie: finally, what's the status of jordanian-u.s. relations? >> could not be better. we work as always in harmony in dealing with all the challenges. as you know, jordan is not dealing with just problems of jordan. >> charlie: but from the time that you've said, you know, that you didn't feel there was a resonance to the warnings you

were giving, do you feel like the administration here has changed in its attitude about relevancy and necessity of the united states to take a lead and to be deeply involved? >> yes. i mean, i have a very strong relationship with the president and, you know, i had a long session with him in february of this year where we sort of discussed a lot of the issues that we're now dealing with. i had a chance to spend a lot of time with him at the n.a.t.o. summit where we sort of identified how to move forward on the issues of, as it turned out, the air campaign. he sent me a lot of his representatives to deal on the ground. you know, general allen is actually in jordan as we speak. you know, how do we work with the iraqis. he's looking at the strategic angle of these issues, wants to

make sure that we don't get ourselves into trouble. i tend to be maybe more the aggressive side on these issues and i'm sure i create a lot of headaches for him. >> charlie: meaning you're calling him to action? >> no, he's always been very responsive to everything i do. >> charlie: what do you mean by you tend to be more aggressive? >> he's the sensible one out of the two of us. he just reminds me that maybe i have to think through a lot of the things that i come up with. but we have a tremendous chemistry when we sit down and deal with these issues, and he actually, when he looks at the problems of syria and iraq, i'm always impressed with how he looks at the things from many angles, and then we sit down and figure out how do we do that, how do we get other people involved in the mix and move things forward. >> charlie: no question he understands and is at one with you in terms of laying out the

wider threat that exists in the world. >> yes. >> charlie: you're satisfied that he not only understands that and is engaged by it? >> yes, absolutely. and anytime there's a problem, i mean, you know, he's always, always kept the door open. so if there is ever a difficulty, lift up the phone, give me a call and we'll deal with it right there. so i'm very, very comfortable with the relationship that we have, his vision on how to deal with the issues and, as a result, you're seeing that there is a process going into place, and i will hopefully see him tomorrow, bring him up to speed on some of the things we're doing, throw some ideas back and worth and fake to it the next level. >> charlie: not easy to be king. >> well, probably more difficult to be president. >> charlie: thank you so much. pleasure. >> charlie: for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com.

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