>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight bud selig the commissioner emeritus of baseball for the hour. >> job of the commissioner and the job of the sport is to create what i call hope and faith. i use that because we are a social institution no question about it. and the idea is to create as much hope and faith as is possible. so now 30 clubs have been in the play yeahs in the last 10 or 12 years. people ask me a lot about it. of course it made me happy because it was what we said out to do. >> rose: to create some parity. >> yes, competitive balance i call it. you're right. years@parity.

it( >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by:çó >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> i'm lucky. one of those rare instances where a little boy's dreams came true. >> rose: bud selig was major league baseball nice commissioner.

say he was the most influential. on saturday at the age of 80 he stepped down after 23 years on the job. he grew up in milwaukee where he rooted for the new york yankees. in 1970, at age 35 he bought the seattle pirates in bankruptcy court and he then moved the team to milwaukee. he calls this his proudest accomplishment. as commissioner he revolutionized the economics revenue grew to $8 billion. play-off expansion and interleague play were among the additions he introduced. also faced a number of challenges. among some of the games best players continued to cast a wide shadow on the game. on sunday bud selig and i spoke at yankee stadium. here is that conversation. there are a lot of things we could do on sunday morning. but to talk to you about baseball in this setting this stadium with snow on the ground. >> the yankee stadium ever since 1949, old yankees old yankees

never been here9-%q! snow covering the fields. so this is a first. >> rose: growing up in milwaukee, you were a yankee fan. >> i was. very strange. in 1945 the milwaukee brewers, then the triple a team of the american association had an out fielder by the name of hershel martin. i'm the only one left on earth who remembered him. he was my favorite player and they traded him to[during war time period. and i became a yankee fan. hershel was gone quickly. but joe demaggio came back. then i was a joe demaggio came. >> rose: derek jeter in your judgment pretty much coincided with it. >> you know charlie we're lucky because the great icons of the sport for the most part have been really good.

you know you go back to demaggio and williams mantle. on and on and on to henry aaron who is a very close friend of mine if the last 57 58 years.?.willie mays, sandy cofax. but derek jeter has really been'ms:fk4p6cc the face of baseball. i must say i've told him many times i've told his parents. makes you proud to be the commissioner of a sport that produces a player like that. >> rose: what does he have that makes him ... >> remarkable dignity. greatness on the field. but better off the field. and so you know, sometimes you know, in sports as in life, things happen that sometimes we wish didn't happen.

derrick really just had a remarkable career off the field. on the field we know he won five world champions and played brilliant. >> rose: baseball began with your mother marie not your father ben. >> that's true. >> rose: from romania. >> that's true. >> rose: what influence. >> when i was three or four years old, my mother was a school teacher. she was very well disciplined but she loved baseball. listened to it. as a little kid i remember her listening to the radio back in the 30's. you listen to the old brewer games and then started listening to the white sox and the could you be games particularly. she took me very early age to the old triple a ballpark in milwaukee.

and i guess charlie, you know they say something gets in your blood. from that time on i was an intense fan. i wasn't just a fan i was an intense fan. >> rose: did you want to own a team? >> i don't really, you know, that's interesting. at first when i was 10, 12, 14 15 years old i really thought i was going to be the heir apparent to joe demaggio. >> rose: by(pyn age 14 you realize that's not going to happen. >> i tell you what happened, by the age of 14 a young man threw me a curve ball and that was it. i knew then -- >> rose: you were playing a gamek you were not familiar with. >> that's right. my career was over at a very very early age. but you know, i went to school and thought i was going to be a history professor wanted to be a history professor. >> rose: and are in fact today. >> that's exactly correct. it took me to age 80 to realize that dream. >> rose: your dad wanted you to spend a year in the business. >> he did. when i got out, i was going back

to school i got of the service and my dad said just give me a year. obviously i had a very close relationship with both my parents. in those days when your father asked you to do something you did it and that was it. and the rest is history. then i became a big braves fan. they were great as you know. won pennants in 57-58 and won the world series in 57. then they left milwaukee. that's when my baseball career started, 1964. shockingly they were leaving for atlanta. 29, 30 year old kid i wound up in the middle of all that. took us a long time to get a team. failed. not failed but passed over. >> rose: you had that non-league team. didn't you have an investment in the milwaukee -- >> no, i had investment in milwaukeeñ braves. they went public. and then left town. >> rose: when they left town you sold your stock. >> i did. the i did, oh.

just the name braves in milwaukee is very negative. >> rose: was the there a minor league team called the milwaukeeí3éó brewers. >> yes before that. that's the team that existed before the braves came to milwaukee in 1953 from boston. and that's why we renamed the team because not very kind feelings toward it but it took us five and-a-half years charlie. taught me a lot about life patients, tenacity. the american league expanded and i then brought the white sox to milwaukee for two years. somewhat similar tomammy taking the divers to justy city. but interesting enough, in 1967, now we wereó[ two years without a team. and i managed to convince the minnesota twins and the chicago white sox to play an exhibition game. and in fact, the sports editorçó of the milwaukeey journal at that time told me i ruined baseball forever nobody would

come. and i was very nervous. encouraged by a lot of people. first i'm two teams played an exhibition game. i was trying to keep baseball alive in milwaukee. >> rose: a lot of people showed up. >>51,544. stood on the field, jammed all over. it was a wonderful thing. i still remember walking into the press box and saying to the sports editor who had been really tough on me in that point i said we sure won baseball in mill worky tonight. then i got the white sox to come up for two years in 1968 and 69. >> rose: that did what. >> they did very well. the allen brothers owned them and we felt we had the white sox bought in 1969. and john decided to buy them. and so we were really almost at the end of the line. my budding career with the

seattle club got in trouble. >> rose: did the commissioner hav(a deal. >> no but i think the commissioner would have vetoed that deal. if we had at least made a deal they would have vetoed it. they did not want to leave can chicago and i understand that. having been the commissioner now, i would have made the same. ekj-but the day that deal died, iready about the seattle club in trouble. one year old expansion team. and we went to seattle. eventually made a deal. but then spent the winter because seattle's trying to keep their team and billy again thought he didn't want to move to seattle if he didn't have to. in march of 1970, things finally came together and we bought a team out of bankruptcy court. paid $10.8 million charlie. that was the highest paid. in fact sitting here at yankee

stadium brings back the story george steinbrenner bought the yankees twoa0-lx years later. yp>> everybody kidded me i bought the yankees for 10 and you got -- that's what he was telling us. >> rose: so you have a team finally. >> finally. >> rose: where do you go from there in try to opinion a pennant. >> well you do. expansion was a very tough process in those days. we got a team out of the bankruptcy court. and they had spent money on players. so the first few years were really bad. we lost+as i was walking down, a fan, we had a big crowd and a fan said to me you know you wanted a team in the worst way and that's what you got. i said well it will get better. we had a lot of years.

we struggled through the 70's until 1978 where we really finally hadñr we won 93 games. we hadxd a wonderful team. george who was on my favorite baseball personalities came to manage. and the failed pitching coach of the baltimore orioles. and then we finally won the pennant in 82 and played in the world series. not that i'm a poor loser but we lost seven games was raleigh was hurt and i'm still mad about that and it's now 33 years ago >> rose: thank you about being a baseball owner. you go to your first owner meeting and then there's the guy who lives baseball. >> here i am april of 1970, we get this team on eight days notice. and about four days later billy calls and says you know we have a meeting i want you to come to

new york. yes. so i got to the meeting in new york, had no idea what it was about. really excited the thought here i am going to a major league. phil wrigley the to my left and gusty. gusty had broken his ankle and he had a cane and it was all good label. it was all about pensions. and it was this tough a meeting. i was sitting in the room thinking what have i got i myself into here. and gussy pounding a cane. that was the symbol what was to happen for the next 25 years. >> rose: what was. tell me what you learned about baseball from that meeting in terms of what the conflict was what the sound was what you didn't know about the way baseball is run. >> i thought i knew a lot of but

i realize that day the relationship between the players and the owners was very badly streamed. the union had been formed in 1966. marvin miller had come on. and the owners particularly the oldf@ line owners resented the factoeplayers. there was a lot to say about that. it was a painful moment that didn't go away for a long time two and-a-half decades. we had eight work stoppages in my career. my mentor was a name from detroit, wonderful man a visionary and did great things. so he really took me under his wing right from the start. and on that day, i had known him a little bit before we got in baseball but he was flying back

to new york and i asked him if i could fly with him. we got in the cab and he looked at me and said you don't know what you got yourself into. and i said this is tough and he said yes it is. and he was right. >> rose: do the commissioners run baseball or duty[owners run the commissioner. >> commissionership is not well understood. through certain traumas, in candace was alive this wouldn't happen. i didn't agree with marvin but he said when i was filing with billy which was a daily occurrence by the way, maybe an hourly occurrence. i represented the player. commissioner doesn't represent the players. and life evolved like it does in everything else. and so look the commissioner, i can never complain about owner interference. in my 23 years, we've done a lot and there are things that i

wanted to do. but after all the owners own them3]úr teams and one has to be sensitive to that. >> rose: what does that mean, sensitive? in the end they can vote you out of office. >> well they have. they renewed me four times and then of course i served 23 years but the answer to your question is yes. i would say what i've told people over and over and i would say this to you, support a good job. there's no question about it that people have said well bud was a politicianvotes because it's a manifestation of unity. and i like that but the fact of the matter is after all the owners have to vote of everything of significance and you better convince them and do what you think is in the best interest and what they think is in the best interest. but the commissioner does discipline and does do things. >> rose: suspensions. >> absolutely. i would say that i can't think of a single instance where i did not do something because the

owners were objective. >> rose: they have asked the question when was bud acting in his own interest for his own team rather than the good of baseball. >> well, once i took over i was really sensitive about that. i had founded the brewers, i had lived every inning, every pitch. and one of the reasons i had some trepidation about taking the job was because i wanted to be neutral. by the time i took over the commissioner's job and even before i knew i could be. for instance let me give you a for instance. in 1997 we needed a team to move leagues. so i said to the owner of the kansas city royals, the milwaukee club wanted to move back to the national league. the braifers -- braves has been there. i liked being in the american league east because i liked

beating george steinbrenner's team. i said i can't finish. why didn't you move into the national league you got great i gave him six weeks american everything wanted but i was so reluctant to move the brewers because people would say there he goes he's doing something to his own interest. david turned me down and everything said you got to move them that's the only possibility. so i think as history chronicles all this, there was never an issue i favored the brewerscanybody could ever find that i favored the brewers. nor did actually anybody ever say that i did. >> rose: one thing you did good for the brewers was revenue share. >> yes, for the brewers but for baseball. >> rose: you did it for baseball. >> in the 90's early to mid 90's the system was broken. the economic system was broken.

i have offer said charlie that the national league was still living on the ground, you and i will understand that. what i meant by that is they haven't changed the way they did things economically. now disparity came in. i remember sitting in a meeting in 1989 when the yankees deal with msg came in. nobody could believe the numbers. that was the beginning of the change. well by the 90's we have a lot of unhappy teams. couldn't compete. and so you had to do something that helped baseball. after all it was not only milwaukee, it was pittsburgh, cincinnati detroit, on and on and minnesota. you had many more small and medium -- >> rose: was it a hard sale. >> a very tough sale. took me a long time. talk about a political job.

but in the end there's no sense denying it took a while. we have a very good, there was never litigation it all went through because in the end it was in the best interest of baseball. what is the proof of that. sin we've had revenue sharings, revenues have gone to $9 billion. teams are worth far more than ever and the sport is healthier. so did[ revenue saying help baseball? you bet it did. >> rose: and what has mld gotten done for baseball. >> almost legendary to be frank. january 19 2000 they knew the internet was going to be a factor. and so i got the clubs to authorize its formation in a 30-0 vote. i had to work on george steinbrenner a little bit on the end but he finally came on. now i would like to sit here today and tell you how smart we were. we had no idea.

but what mlb.com has done, huge company it has really taken us to a point where, amongst other things, as i told everyone this week when i went the say good-bye to people. our relationship with our fans is so close because we have things like that. and mlb.com and bam has not only become a huge enterprise far greater than anyone ever imagined but it's a linkage between the clubs, baseball and their millions and millions of fans. charlie, when i was growing up, other than the radio, and i could buy all the baseball magazines i did, that was it. that's what it's done. >> rose: revenue. >> huge revenue. and been wonderfully successful. and it's another device that's

owned by the 30 teams equally. and that'sçó really important because look sometimesoé charlie people don't understand. job of a commissioner and the job of the sport is to create what i call hope and faith. because we are a social institution no question about it. and the idea to create as much hope and filth -- faith, charlie as is possible. laying -- playing in the world series, people asked me about it, of course it made me happy because it was what we set out to do. >> rose: to create some parity. >> yes, competitive balance i call it. you're right. years ago people used to call it parity. i call it competitive balance and that's what we've done. >> rose: speaking of pete

rose and major league baseball and nfl in the last two instances chosen the number two person to step forward. and so have. is that an automatic choice for you. >> i wanted it to be open but i wanted people to feel they had their choice. but rob manfred in matt particular case char lee had been rrnl for two and-a-half decades. able through all of our labor negotiations, was a very slow labor negotiator and worked very closely. i thought to myself at the time varound, he knows the people. so i think for the same reason david chose adam silver i formed it, i formed a committee and let the committee really work independently.

and theychoices. they came after reviewing everything to the same conclusion. and that was good. >> rose: the giants won the world series. did not have any african american player. you it is says i've been sensitive to race issues back in college in your fraternity as often has been told by friends of yours when you insisted an african american get admitted into the fraternity and shut the doors i'm not letting you out of here until we figure it out. >> that was true by the way i didn't let him out of there. >> rose: let's assume this was something. but does baseball have a huge influx of people by african americans. they dominate in basketball,

significant in football but not baseball. >> that's true. we have more diversity today than ever before. let me go back because that is true. i have often said that the proudest and most important moment in baseball history was april 15th, 1947. no question. >> rose: jackie robinson. >> jackie robinson. out of that came don nookim and had -- henry alan and willie mays. for reasons i don't understand, charlie a close friend of mine i've had thousands of conversations about. but here's what we've done. we've built academies all over. california, houston going up to philadelphia, one up already in washington. out of that the drafts of the last couple years we've made i

think significant progressm on drafting african american players. now i want to say that the objective of the academies is as much education as it is the players. but i would say to you that the next two to four years there is significant improvement on that. very important to me. i tell a story -- >> rose: so does baseball drop the ball then? >> i don't know if baseball dropped the ball many years ago or if you put up hoops or basketball. look, i tell a story because people want to know how i got to this whole social institution thing. i got it in september 23rd 1957. i went to is braves were going

to play the cardinals. to make a long story short i even cut a class which i never did. but henry earned him a home run to win the pennant. i never saw unbridled joy. henry got carried off the field. mainly white teammates. and the same day the next day "new york times," orville was saying black kids wanting to go to school. pictures, i still have that paper. people got it from me because i talked about it often. i think that's where the whole social institution thing was born. and why i feel so strongly about that because there's no questionabout it i want baseball to represent america and be like america. i think you will be impressed in the next three orq four years as you watch this unfold. >> rose: but if you ask most people today what is america's

game would they say football? >> well, it depends who you ask and what it's about. my sport is more popular than ever before. drawing far more people than ever before. minor leagues by the way doing well. revenues grown to outstanding levels. we're sitting in one of 22xd new ballparks here. the grand old game has never been this popular. and i'm proud of where we are. >> rose: ñi let me talk about relationships and personalities and people. -- succeeded as commissioner of baseball. he became a great friend of yours. >> one of the best friends i ever had in the world. when i was chairman of the commissioner's shop committee,

ironically in 1982. that's where bart and i met. we were walking the streets of new york at 2:00 in the morning. we replayed 1949. >> rose: and became commissioner of the national league. >> that's exactly right. president of the national league that's right and then commissioner. and then tragically died september 1st of 1989. he would have been a great commissioner >> rose: did you talk to him the night before he died. >> i did. it's a funny thing charlie weed gotten home fromt( dinner. i was reading they had won a game on thursday a afternoon. i called bart, left a message. and about 12:30, 1:30 his time he called me. he had been out and he said everythingdv all right buddy you don't sound well. >> rose: he called you.

>> yes. and we talked for an hour. had the nicest talk. we gossipped a lot about owners. every commissioner that comes in. and it was great. and he said, finally i got to go i'm going to the cape tomorrow. i said yeah we've got the oakland a's coming to town. he said i'll call you when i get to the cape. and it was really that kind of relationship. ironically the last thing he did, he got to the cape he and his wife tony went and bought a gift for one of our daughters who was getting married, wrote a card, send the gift and died. end of the story. that was tough. it was very tough on baseball. fay has been in the office. two weeks later in milwaukee at a major league meeting, he became commissioner. >> rose: that's what i don't understand. fay was very close to bart, very close and he got him to come to

work with him. fay had been an executive. bart a professor. they worked together and yet you led the evident. >> -- the effort. >> i don't know if i led. there was 18, almost 20. there were a lot of people. look, i said to you before the sport was changing. the economics were bad and getting worse. there was a lot of trauma. we had been through one really unfortunate labor incident after another. the problem wasñm charlie when we agreed to it they didn't solve a basic problem. disparity was growing. people were unhappy. and fay and i talked a lot about that. just after a while there were a lot of club owners who just felt that we were not doing what we should do. >> rose: and so you did not

believe that fay should not the commissioner of baseball because you weren't doing what you thought to do in terms of relationships with the players' union. >> no, not as much as as the people have said that. no they were concerned that the economic programs were getting worse. the economic consequences of these things, small and medium markets weren't able to compete. these were problem that bart and i spent a lot of time talking and were getting infinitely worse. >> rose: pete rose. some say that the stress of feeling withgiomani. >> i don't think so. can bart's health overall seemed to be good. he did smoke a lot. the only time he ever got mad at me. a couple week before we had

dinner one night. and i talked to him about dismaft -- that. it was a very stressful time for bart. whether that killed him or not only his doctors would know that. it was a painful problem and a painful time for bart because one of the things you do as a commissioner you always charlie you always worry about integrity. because whatever one wants to say, we can agree we can disagree. without integrity you don't have a sport. it's as simple as that. if you and i come here in april and let's a scintilla of doubt in your mine, my mind about the game itself, you don't have ava sport. gambling was something that was

is persona non-grata. i remember my first trip may of 1958. i was all of 2 4. milwaukee braves. there was a big sign when you walked in about gambling. if you gambled you were suspended for life signed by the commissioner of baseball. >> rose: pete rose came to see you as commissioner. >> he did and johnny bench and a few others. >> rose: supporting the elimination of pete's suspension. what did they want? >> well they brought pete to see me wanted to. pete asked for the meeting. i was particularly close, joe morgan was there, i was particularly close to joe, and johnny bench and mike smith i liked a lot. i met pete. we talked. they left the room, i remember. meet was there alone with me for a while. >> rose: did he acknowledge

guilt. >> not that date. >> rose: later date. >> later date. not to me publicly. >> rose: he denied it at the time of that meeting with you. >> there was no admission of anything. we just talked about life. remember bart when he suspended pete, he said he had to reconfigure his life. >> rose: that's what bart said to pete. >> yes.?(@6c0@6cjúsaid it publicly and said it privately. so pete knew what he had to do. >> rose: had he done it? >> well since i was the judge and fortunate leave, i have seen my own judgment i let stand for a number of reasons. >> rose: which are. >> well, i just tbelt it was

right at the time and i also concerned about not only the integrity of the sport but gambling and all the other things. >> rose: is there anything that pete rose could do? >> i don't know the answer to that. it's going to be up to pete now and rob manfred and others. >> rose: the new commissioner. >> i just felt obviously by not doing anything, that it was in baseball's best interest and everyone's to leave the suspension as it was. >> rose: then there was steroids. if you look back over your career the 23 years as commissioner that had to be the most testing time for you. >> i worried a lot about obviously -- >> rose: it goes to the heart of the game. >> you bet, no question about it. you know, people have said we were slow to react. i believe that's an historical

myth and let me tell you why. >> rose: they did. that was a glacial response. >> that's what they say. we really became aware in 1998. yes, there had been a little something earlier and there had been other things. but charlie, i would tell you that many meet lived in the club house, had a far better view. nobody ever said anything about it. and they've all said that to me, i want to say that. but we reacted quickly. number one drug testing is a matter of collective bargaining. the union was unopposed. they admit that. all due respect, they were here this morning they wouldn't deny that. we tried in 94 to get it. we tried various times in the 90's. so when the whole thing rose with mark maguire we went to harvard to study the room fa cases. in 2001 i put in the minor

league testing program. so this program has been tested now for 15 years. in 02 when we went to collective bargaining, we at least got a program. it was a very strong as it turned out it led to. we then continuously tightened it up. people were called before congress which was painful. but didn't really lead to it because i was already bound and determined to touch the program. i brought senator george mitchell in and i will tell you about that it's interesting, you talk about commissioners. nobody on my staff and the player's association was for it. it was just, it was me and me alone. >> rose: to bring in -- >> to bring in mitchell. but i did because i had a lot of faith in him. he had done great work as part of a blue ribbon economic committee which we talked about the problems before.

and i said to senator mitchell, be independent. do whatever you want interview whomever you want. you start with me and go to anybody else. unfortunately the players' association did not cooperate. i want to go back a little bit in history. in the 80's charlie, we had a very significant cocaine problem in this sport. pittsburgh drug trials. i know all the teams including mine had a problem. and couldn't get a drug testing. therel] was a left-handed pitcher, steve howell, he was suspended seven times, brought back every time. when people say we were slow to react, there was no history. it was a subject of collective bargaining. and the union was unalterably opposed. martin miller a month before he passed away, certainly in his opinion if he were running the union there would be no drug testing. so when people say well the commissioner was slow to react

that's when you got, people would say that particular in the 90's not anymore. well if landis was still commissioner. there was no union there was no television. it was a different world. >> rose: but george mitchell also points a finger you know, across the board. i mean he said a lot of people are responsible for the fact that this became the problem it is in baseball including, including the commissioner and the owners. >> well, he did. except the difference was -- >> rose: this is your guy. >> right he is my guy. but what he would say to you today and what he has said many times since then, he made recommendations. i look back at it, i can myself a baseball man, charlie. i went back to all of my old friends i have close relationship in some cases to this day. we didn't have any guys on our

team. i asked them. a lot of people are doing second guessing. i'm not suggesting to you ... >> rose: that you couldn't have done more. >> i thought about that often. i don't think i could have. but george made 20 recommendations, we accepted every one of them. club houses aretraining facilities are different. you talk to the professional athletic trainers who i have great regard for. it's a different world. we also eliminated everything else around there so that today, if you talked to people who work in the club houses, team doctors, trainers, it's a different world. i think the game?nyb cleaner today than ever. so as a social institution, what did we do? we have the best drug testing program, water who was very critical of us at one point says we have the best testing program not in american sports but in america so i'm proud of that. >> rose: and then there's

alex rodriguez who blamed in his response a witch hunt by the commissioner that is personal between you and him. >> well there was nothing person. actually i had always gotten along very well with alex. as a result of the information given to me, the whole biogenesis affair, we 13 players accepted it. alex didn't, he fought it and i then suspended him. arbitrator acted on it a little bit not too much. i don't think you hear those comments from alex anymore. pretty much the opposite. >> rose: what happens now. >> going back to pete rose but all these things. commissioners are always in a difficult position. but you have to use your judgment. what is in the best interest of the game. i know sometimes that may sound

trite. it isn't trite at all. you have to do what you think is right. >> rose: you're convinced the league has done everything about steroids and this is no longer going to be an issue except in terms of history. you went to the game when hank aaron study the record. >> right. >> rose: you did not go tothe game where he broke the record. you sent out a message. so how should we view those athletes who use steroids and have toppled the record of people who didn't. >> well people are going to have to make their own judgment about that. i studied the game every decade, every generation has items unique features. and i say that not critically.

i know theyzirñ hall of fame balloting on those people is not good, getting high perndle. >> rose: do you think you'll ever make -- >> but i want to say this about that. i've had players who have come to me, a lot of players who resent it being called the steroid air awe -- era because there were a lot of them. and resent that. those we know did it history will have to deal with that. >> rose: it's just history that has to deal with it. in your own words what would you say to your friend hank aaron who saw his record broken. >> hank aaron and i have had a lot of conversations. >> rose: and. >> hank understands there isn't anything i can do about that or can't do. as far as i'm concerned, hank broke babe ruth's record and what happened in that period just exists. there isn't anything -- >> rose: you concerned the

barryi" bonds broke babe ruth's record. >> yes -- we all have our own opinion. >> rose: your opinion is there has been an asterisk or your opinion is simply if you look at the numbers. >> i'm going to let charlie, we did what we had to do. we corrected it. we fixed the problem better i think than anybody else has and i think the independent experts say we have. i can't redo that part of history. >> rose: alex rodriguez is six home runs short of)=÷ willie mays, willie mays. >> the great willie mays, you're right. we'll have to see what happens. he'll be playing for this team or at least be in spring training in another month or so. >> rose: what do you think will happen. >> i don't know.

i'm going to let the yankees worry about that. >> rose: lets turn to what is for you proud achievements in baseball. one, you mention there is interleague play you're proud of that. you're also proud of the fact that you have a wild card. >> now two more. >> rose: you're proud of the world baseball classic. >> i am. >> rose: what else? because jerome holesman, historian of major league baseball. >> great his attorney. >> -- historian. >> rose: before he died he said you were the greatest baseball commissioner ever had. if that's true, beyond the things i mentioned, what ought to be part of that achievement. if he's right why is he right? >> well, i'll let other

historians -- >> rose: make the case for jerome holesman judgment. >> economic referration of the game which has led to this open faith we talked about which had enormous consequences. labor peace for 21 years. charlie we had a work stoppage every two or three years. >> rose: m÷ well the world series. >> well i know. so i'm proud of that because nobody ever thought that possible. we've made, i mean the whole wild card thing. remember, baseball was very resistent to change. social institutions are generally -- >> rose: was that because of the owners? >> everybody. baseball people, owners, everybody. listen when i owned the team, we talked about new things. we've never done it that way you can't do that. all parties, players owners commissioners in some cases. but, look at the changes. i mean i guess what i would say to you, to answer the question,

if you look at 1992 which was quite abysmal economics broken, sport had really been sort of i say stuck in neutral for two and-a-half decades, three decades. the wild card, when we put the wild card in in september of 1993 in boston, charlie you would have thought i defiled motherhood at that time. my goodness gracious you can't do that. >> rose: you made winning the pennant less important. >> i don't think so. >> rose: that's what they argued. >> yes, well they were wrong. they were so wrong now we have two more and everybody loves it now. look, we had 16 teams. we expanded to first 26 then to 28 and then to 30. you can't just leave it as it is. goodness gracious by labor day charlie, most cities it's all.r

over. and that's why this, look we don't want to disturb the great game. but you got to make changes. it's true with everything in life. and why do you think the last decade has been the most attended sport. most watched in our history. >> rose: because they play more games. >> we've been playing 162 games since 1961. but the fact ofbecause it appeals to people. and that's why the wild card today is so popular. >> rose: but then there is this which i know you thought a lot about. it's too long a game. there>> well that's interesting you know. >> rose: there are a lot of ways you could make this game shorter. >> we have a pace game committee and we're working on it. let me go back to something. there's a lot of history here. i saw a sporting news in 1955

joe gave it to me in the office and they were worried about pace of game. games are taking two hours and 31 minutes. they were all in 1955. i often tell this story charlie to the sports editor of the milwaukee journal oliver who went to dallas at the ap sports center in 58 and said baseball has lost the younger generation. it's a moribund report. i've heard this. i'm not saying there isn't something to that. i'm saying to you we're working on the pace of the game joe tory and sandy, i have a great committee, mike gordon. and we're coming up with things. but i want to say this to you. why is their attendance increasing. why are televisions renews increasing. the more i talk to fans i don't get that as much as i get it in the media. don't misunderstand me. >> rose: if you didn't think this was a problem you would not

have all these important people look at it. >> i said don't misunderstand me. we will look at this problem but i want to say to you, 74 75 million people attending baseball games was unheard of even a decade ago. >> rose: tell me the things you don't want to see happen.for example one reppation is the shorter time between pitches. do you want to comment on that. >> yes. no, i think that's all right. we can get the pitcher ready. look, there are a lot of things, and i said this to people, batters, in my day, maybe even in your day, batter got in the batter's box he didn't get out. and i think that's right. this is all stuff we have to do with the players association. we're talking to them now but they're being very cooperative. i'm comfortable they're going to make some progress on this issue. >> rose: what have you wanted to do in the 23 years. we thought you would retire earlier and then you got he can

tended. four times. >> rose: well you couldn't give it up? >> the owners really convinced me it was the right thing for me to stay. and i had a little doubt i'm glad now that i did it. >> rose: so why did you decide to go now. >> i had my 80th birthday last july 30th. when i made this decision in october of 2013, i really decided it was in the the sport needed to move forward and it was time. >> rose: but you still could have an office. >> yes. >> rose: they're still going to pay you $6 million a year. >> well i don't know. you ask me that in a year or so and i'll let you know. >> rose: your judgment is really real good. >> they created the commissioner emeritus which baseball never had before. i said this before i'll help rob manfred and do whatever they want me to do. >> rose: you'll watch the games and you'll go zl the games. >> i will.

>> rose: what would you change now? what does baseball need that it doesn't have? let's assume relations are okay. let's assume you're on top of the steroid problem let's assume you're looking at the pace of the game. let's assume that the idea of getting new teams and you work that out in terms of what city has teams. those would be gifts. what's next. >> i think we're in great shape right now. we have to continue internet company and everyone else to stay on top of things. 22 new ballparks. economic system will need some adjustments. charlie, every economic system needs an adjustment just like in government always needs to be adjusted. but i'm very comfortable right now where the sport is. >> rose: the pictures at your desk include your parents your

grand children. >> my wife. >> rose: your wife for sure. and bart giamatti. what would you say to bart today on your first day since you retired last night at midnight? >> i wish i had the opportunity to talk to him. it's been quite a journey, bart, quite a journey. >> rose: thank you for taking this time with us. >> it's tóá a pleasure believeme. thank you. >> rose: the 9th commissioner of major league baseball. thank you for joining us.ysweñ more about this program and early episodes visit us on-line at pbs.org and charlierose.com.

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every single bite needed to be tasted. >> wow. >> it's like a great big hug. >> my parents put chili powder in my baby food. >> everywhere all over the table. >> my stomach is g