>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight david axelrod his book is called believer. my ho years in politics. >> there are fairly perfect choices. there are always difficult choices to be made. and you live 24 hours a day with that sense of responsibility for the safety of the yes, for the economy, for so many different things. and you know i came away from that experience with deep respect for anyone who sat in that chair whether i agreed with him or not. it is an awesome awesome responsibility. and you know it's not fashionable to say that the president. united states makes sacrifices. but i just you know every day i saw the burdens that came to that desk. and i thought man that's

not a job i would wantment not a job very many people could do. >> rose: david axelrod for the hour next. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: david axelrod is here a political strategist who lead barak obama's historic presidential campaign and served in the white house a senior advisor to the president.

he founded the institute of politics at the university of chicago after leaving washington in 20 it. his new book is called believer. my 40 years in politics am he reflects on his career working on more than 150 political campaigns. david gergen writes in "the new york times" in his review would barack obama have been elected president without david axelrod? that question is less farfetched than it may seem. i'm pleased to have david axelrod back at this tablement welcome. >> i'm so glad to be here charlie. >> rose: we'll come to that question a bit later. he would have done quite well without you and you would have done quite well without him. but the two probably was greater than the sum. >> and the truth is i'm not sure either of us would have gone forward in politics but for the fact that we came together at a time when each of us was at kind of an exi tension-- existential moment in our career. hi grown dismayed about the cynical nature of the business that i was in of campaigns.

and he had lost a race for congress and was making a decision about one more campaign. and if he had lost it he told michelles this's it. i will be out of politics an i will pursue other things. so this was around his senate race in to 04. we started working together today that in 2002. and so-- . >> rose: a senator in a field of six. >> a field of seven. and not all all a front-runner. he was very much a second-tier quand data at the time that we hooked up. but you know i knew him and i liked him. and i told my wife susan that if i could help (become a united states senator that would be something i would be proud of for the rest of my life. so i shunned some more lucrative offers and went to work for him. >> rose: does everybody who does what you do want to find a candidate that they think will take them and him or herself to the white house? >> you know, there is this

sort of jockey kind of mentality. everybody wants to ride in the kentucky derby which can be he is duckive in a dangerous way sometimes. i have to con feses when i hooked up with barack in this campaign for the senate it really wasn't for a race at the white house in mind. at the time there was no african-american in the united states senate. i knew what i good guy he was how well motivated he was and how bright he was. i knew he would be a big contributor there. but it wasn't really until after the convention in 2004. >> rose: whether he did the keynote. >> that it was clear that he was on a fast track. i did you know as i wrote in the book. i was working for john edwards for president in the 2004 race. didn't work out very well for me personally with him. and i was working for obama at the same time when he was running for the senate. and the contrast between the two was really profound because edwards you know he was always fine to me

decent to me. i think he cared about people. i don't want to suggest otherwise. smart guy. but he kind of wanted the cliff notes. he wanted to do what he needed to do in order to get to the next run. >> rather than understanding policy. >> and obama wanted to drill three and four levels deep. and really thoughtful. and it come ported with what i thought about him from the first time i met him which was here is a guy that thinks that winning elections isn't the most important thing. it's what you do when you win the election. and what you do to move your community or the country forward. and so i saw national kind of skills even in that campaign. but the convention was sort of the line of demarcation. >> rose: did you see in him at that time a man that might be president? >> you know i got to tell you-- . >> rose: because everybody steps forward and says i saw him rahm emmanuel says that. >> yeah yeah well don't hook him up to a lie detector on that one. well i met-- i met barack

in 1992 when a friend of mine bette lou satzman a-- of liberal politics in chicago called me and said i just met the remost remarkable young man and i think you should meet him. i said i will be happy to meet anyone you want by why this guy. she said i think he would be the first african-american president of the united states. this was in 1992 when he returned from law school. i always joke when i go to the track i bring bette lou with me because she can spot winners. so i had lunch with him. and i remember very clearly how impressive he was. he didn't walk away humming hail to the chief. but what was clear to me was here was a guy who had been president of the harvard law review, editor of the harvard law review. first african-american could have written his ticket at any corporation any law firm and been set for life essentially. and instead came back to chicago to run a voter registration drive.

>> rose: did he do that to a place that he could live and start a political campaign? >> i think that was part of it. but i think in the conversation with him what was clear to me was that he saw public service as a vehicle to do things. you know, i think charmie the world of politics divides into two categories one more numerous than the other. the first are people who want to be something and the second are people without want to do something. and i'm attracted to that second group because i believe the title believer is not about barack obama it's about the ability to-- the ability we have to steer our future by-- through the practice of politics. >> rose: an to come to believe in something bigger than yourself. >> absolutely. my whole interest in this started when i was a kid here in new york city. five years old woman who used to take care of me when my mother was at work named jessie barry

african-american woman very poor. came from the south. took care of other people's kids so she could take care of her own. took me to 20th street because she heard john f. kennedy was coming. this was ten days before the 1960 elections which telling you how things had changed. because he had a stop in new york, new york ten days before the election. because new york was a swing state in that race with-- . >> rose: now democrats hardly come to new york. >> only to raise money. and so she put me on a mailbox and i watched 20th street fill in with people. and this young man jumped on this platform. and everybody watched with rant attention. it was clear it was important. i didn't understand all the words then. but-- but it was clear it was important and what he said, i found out on google years later google which no one could have imagined then was that i'm not here to tell you that if you elect me everything will be good. he said being an american citizen in the 1960s is a

hazardous occupation filled with challenge but also hope. and we'll decide in this election which path we take. and the message was we have some ability to control our destiny. and these decisions matter. his brother who i worked for when i was nine years old a few years later running here in new york bobby kennedy said the future is not a gift it's an achievement. and that's the epigram of my book. in other words we have to craft and work for that future. and that to me is what politics is about. and obama understood that. it was clear that that is what he believed too. >> rose: but you didn't go into running political campaigns. you went and became a journalist, a political journalist. >> i did. i worked on campaigns when i was a kid and i went to the university of city at this. -- city city. and i went there in part because it was a great political town back in the early '70s. they just had had the convention there last of the big city machines richard d daly university of chicago was in theout side where black independent

politics was beginning to flourish. i thought this would be really interesting. when i got to the university of chicago at that time the problem was that nobody wanted to talk about anything that happened after the year 1800. and so i started writing for a local newspaper in order to kind of state my interest in politics. and i kind of became a little expert on chicago politics while i was still a college student parlayed that into a job at the "chicago tribune". >> rose: and started to write about politics and cover politics. >> i spend two and a half years on nights because they said to me you know a lot about politics but you better learn how to be a reporter. i covered a lot of murder and mayhem which was good preparation for chicago politics. and i got taken off that beat from time to time to cover what they thought, you know the losing candidates just to give me a little taste of it. they took me off in 1979 to work for a woman named jane birn who was challenging the machine. and she became mayor.

and that was the beginning of my six or four and a half, five years as a political reporter and city hall bureau chief at the tribune. >> rose: and how did you get into politics? >> i got a little disillusioned at the newspaper because the corporate guys were kind of pressing in on the newsroom something that is very familiar today. and the atmosphere of the newsroom we had a very great sort of front page dynamic when i got there it sort of shifted. i became a little disillusioned about the direction of things. and about that time a fellow by the name of paul simon. >> rose: senator from illinois. >> sort of an orville red enbacker type character but really a paragon of progressiveism and integrity. and he asked me to work for him. and he ri cysted and resisted. he was running for the senate. he was a congressman at the time. and finally i decided i was going to make the jump. and i went to work for paul. and we won-- i went over there as a communications direction and through a series of calamities ended

up as the campaign manager. and we ended upbeating charles percenty who was a three-term senator. one of the only-- . >> rose: moderate republican. >> although he was trying to shift a little bit to the right to try and get in step with the reagan wave which was going on at the time. and i think that hurt him in that election. and we ended up winning while reagan carried the stayed in a landslide simon edged percenty out. so it was a big win. and that was pie launch in politics. >> rose: then you got involved with barack obama and he got the senate nomination. and then in 2004 he he goes to the condition vention in boston where john kerry is being nominated. how did he get that speech? >> well it wasn't an imago lat conception i must say. we did campaign for that. he let it be known that we were interested in it. he had come shortly after the primary the senate primary that obama won and obama spoke at an event and got a huge response.

so kerry-- john kerry i should say filed that away. so he was prone to accept our petition to give the speech. and then we were driving around in southern illinois one day in the spring. and we got a call from mary beth cahill who was kerry's manager. and she said to obama we want you to give the keynote speech. what i remember about it is him hanging up and saying i know what i want to say instantly. i said what is that. he said i want to talk about my story as part of the larger american story. >> rose: he talked to me about that at this table. and his capacity to make his narrative and parker's narrative intertwine is the success that he had in communicating with the american people. >> yes. and, well, first of all his-- his capacity for narrative generally and the ability to tell his story and a story is arch exceptional quality. >> rose: but he didn't seem to have that in it

00-- 2012. >> well, it was a different kind of election. one of the great difficulty people always-- you can imagine it is frustratedding for me to hear as someone in both the campaigns and the white house, you know gee he was so great in communicating and the team was so great in communicating when he was a candidate. why were they so bad at communicating. well when you come to the white house in the midstá=t an epic economic crisis two wars and you face implacable opposition, and you're trying to get a lot of things done it's a much-- it's like three dimensional communication rather than the kind of communication you do in campaigns. and when we ran for re-election in 2012-- 2012 we had to acknowledge the reality of our situation. many people were-- there was a headline in the snork times on the magazine cover of a magazine a year out mr. silver the handi capper for the times nate silver said wrote the piece and it

was his obama toast. that is where we were all year-round. so we had to run a different kind of campaign than we ran in it 008. there was no wave behind us. and we had to grind it out. and so now i would argue that we did ultimately control the message of that campaign and it was about the-- it's much of what we are hearing today about the middle class about how we build an economy that works for the middle class and that's why we were able to win the election. >> rose: tell me today though, what do you see when you see barack obama. having gone through what he has gone through having been with him and then not with him in terms of where you are over the last four years. >> yeah. >> rose: what do you see? >> first of all i see in the last several months. >> rose: at the midterm. >> sinced midterm election when he lost i see a guy who seems reborn. i mean there's a new bounce in his step.

i think he's very focused and enthusiastic and he was exil rated by the things that he was able to do right after the election, the deal with china on climate change. immigration reform. >> rose: reaching out to cuba. >> absolutely. >> rose: but there are those who say that the tone he has now is almost defiant. >> well look here is the key to understanding-- . >> rose: and that he has no more elections to win. >> right. >> rose: or lose. >> right. he also doesn't have a democratic majority in the senate now. and you know when you are the president and your party has one or both houses of congress you have to be somewhat responsive to their needs as well. it's less so now. i mean we saw it last year. >> rose: harry reid had needs. >> he was very needy last year in the sense that he didn't want the president out, they didn't want the president out. they didn't-- they thought he was a negative symbol for some of their senate candidates. >> rose: and he was the issue. >> right.

>> rose: bill clinton will argue today that that was a real problem until the president became the issue and there was no national agenda on the part of democrats. >> i couldn't agree more with him. and bill clinton probably understands as well as anyone that you can never run away from the president. it was a fool's errand. so if the president is going to be the issue at least let the president who is the best communicator you have go out there and focus a national message. i believe if he had made the speech he made at the state of the union this year about a year and a half earlier and had made a sustained presentation on this economic message democrats would have done better at least at the margins. there were some states that were very very difficult. but i think he could have made a difference. >> rose: but even he had to call on bill clinton and say to bill clinton and make him quote explainer in chief. >> yes. and bill clinton had the standing to do it because he was clear of some of the problems that we had. remember this president took over in the midst of

the worst economic crisis in history. bill clinton was seen as someone who presided over an economic revival. and he therefore had qualifications to go out and speak about the economy in a way that was very compelling to people. he is also he is an incredibly gifted. i worked with him toward that convention speech i write in the book about the experience of waiting for his draft which came two hours before the speech and was half the length that he actually delivered. he wanted to sneak the goods through customs. but when i heard his speech. >> rose: a lot of what he said he had not put on paper. >> no no no. in fact i was standing next to the podium at the foot of the podium an watching his teleprompter and it kept stopping and he kept talking. i finally figured out. i am not that quit he mem orized half his speech wrote the other and gave it to us. but you know what that was fine. because he was spectacular. and i really appreciated that.

>> rose: what did it do for the campaign? >> well look his role i was the one who no name-- nominated him within our group to do the nominating speech at the convention and do just what he did. we wanted him to bring the economic case against the republicans and for the president to the american people. and he did that. and then he went out and he repeated it wherever he went. and he you know he was the first call the president made after governor reallyny conceded. and he said you were the mvp of the campaign. and given the friction that occurred in the 2008 campaign between bill clinton and barack obama to see the forging of that relationship over time was interesting to watch. >> rose: who gives credit for bringing that relationship to a better place? >> i think they both-- they both had to get over some things. but you know what i realize-- . >> rose: having to do with clinton and south carolina things like that. >> yeah, there was obviously some bitterness over some of the things that passed between them in 2008.

and i think maybe more on the part of president clinton. but-- cuz it's easier when you win to forget about these things. but you know what you realize when you work as i did 20 feet from the oval office, is that presidents don't have too many peers. there are five living presidents. and they you uniquely understand what that office is about and the kind of pressures that one faces rdz tell me what they understand. >> well they understand first of all that nothing comes to that desk unless it's impossible absolutely impossible. if it can be solved somewhere else it never-- it never gets to them. and there are rarely perfect choices. there are always difficult choices to be made. and you live 24 hours a day with that sense of responsibility for the safety of the country for the economy for so many different things. and you know i came away from that experience with

deep respect for anyone who sat in that chair whether i agreed with him or not. it is an awesome awesome responsibility. and you know we-- it's not fashionable to say that the president of the united states makes sacrifices. but i just you know every day i saw the burdens that came to that desk. and i thought man that's not a job i would want. not a job very many people could do. >> rose: what is the skill level. >> well he may be the smartest person that i have ever-- that i have ever met. and he has a great ability to cut through to the core of issues. you know in the first six months that we were there we were dealing with this economic crisis. and you know this prospect-- prospect that one in three chance of a great depression. ef reday we were checking the vital signs of the economy an trying to figure out which buttons to push. and to see him reason through these things and the

questions that he asked. larry summers who has probably spent some time with you here. brill yanted brilliant guy. you know and maybe the smart-- i always say he may be-- he sometimes acts like he is the smartest guy in the world. and i don't-- doesn't bother me in the least because i think he may be. but he and obama would get in these colloquys and you know barak-- barack would ask questions an larry would ask something you rarely hear him say i didn't think about that, i will look into that. >> rose: bob gates in his book which i thought was not as negative on the president. >> i think that was absolutely true. >> rose: yeah, seemed to have enormous respect for the fact that the president and he said this bush was president and he was secretary of defense for bush. bush would sort of ask good questions of two or three people there him and two or three people but obama would go to the back row, there would be aides and go around the room in search for some new insight. in to how he could you know unlock a challenging

question. >> there is no doubted about it. he could sympathize in a really effective way. one point on gates my observation of him was that they worked very well together. and that they worked in-- gates you know they were both low key both guys who dug deep thought these things through. and what i wrote because i wanted to kind of force attention on to this because i think of the way because gates's book was miscast in some ways in the coverage. bob gates once said to me i love working with this president. and i believe he did. i think they had a good working relationship. but in part because gates respected the fact that obama thought so deeply about these things and made good deliberate decisions. >> rose: bob schieffer asked the question of the president once do you like politics. understanding that people like bill clinton love politics people like george bush love politics.

and had fun at it. they don't know whether the president likes it or tolerates it. >> yeah yeah. well look i don't think-- i think he loves politics in the sense that he loves meeting people. he loves going out and campaigning. >> rose: but he doesn't like the give-and-take. >> i don't think that he minds the give-and-take either. i think that he gets raw with the politics of washington. >> rose: and the cynicism of it all. >> yeah, i mean i think that he really does believe there are more important things than winning an election. and it's been a problem because in 80% of the people in washington have a different point of view. >> rose: we're not now talking about getting elected. we're talking about how do you get what you want passed through the congress. >> right. >> rose: and that's the issue. how do you build coalitions whether it is an international coalition or whether it's a political coalition to get the affordable care act passed and things like that. >> and i have said look sometimes he doesn't relate to other politicians in the way that other politicians want to be related to

because he tends to make the moral argument and so on. >> rose: is it because he thinks he's the smartest man in the rooj or because of a certain arrogant-- arrogance. >> i think it may be read that way. >> rose: is it because he is is supremely confident. at least two of those three things are rate. >> the last thing is true and therefore it may read to others like the first two. i don't think that he is-- i don't think of him as arrogant. i don't think of him-- but he can come off that way. he can come off as morally superior sometimes because he feels this is the obvious right answer to a problem. an you're making a political argument to me that has nothing to do with solving this problem. >> rose: but i-- we all understand from looking at lincoln the film. >> yes. >> rose: and looking at the johnson play with brian cranston played you know that poll particulars is -- politic-- politics is about a process of dealing with human emotions and human ego and you've got to do that to achieve

your-- whether it's it's-- emancipation or whether it's --. >> here is what i with say to you. in the first two years we were there. he passed more legislation and more legislation of substance than anybody since johnson. >> rose: it's easy to say that because of the majority he had in the congress. >> well johnson had a big ma swrorlt. >> rose: not that much did he. >> yeah he did. >> rose: okay. >> yes he did. he had southern democrats who were resistant on civil rights but not on a lot of his other programs. >> rose: and your point was, in fact that sometimes it's not good to have a majority. >> it has its chat engs. it does have its challenges. but here's the reality that we face. i have no doubt that obama could have spent more time socializing and ca joeling more-- more of that than you think. but the reality is that there was a strategy and mitch mcconnell who i think is the shrewdest politician in washington. >> rose: do you really? >> i really do. as a politician yes. do i applaud all of

his-- no. but i think he made a strategic decision. and he did an interview in "the new york times" in january of 2010 and talked about it. where he said we weren't going to give him anything because we didn't want to imply that he had figured the whole thing out. they knew that this president was going to have to wrestle with this economic crisis and some really hard decisions. he had a big majority. and they made a political judgement that they were going to let him wrestle with it on his own. and there was a strategy of noncooperation. i watched the president spend hours with republican members of congress on-- we held the health-care bill open for six months while he tried to persuade republicans to go along with him some of whom were very sympathetic and they all said the same thing. we can't be out there on our own. there is a rule in place here that we would be violating. so i think that you know you can say yes he's not a schmoozer, you know. >> rose: but i think there is -- >> by the way-- . >> rose: we're talking about when people know about lyndon johnson they don't say that he was a schmoozer.

it is much more being willing to get into the dirt and engage with people whose vote you need. >> right. and-- . >> rose: to have the tools -- >> to have the tools that you can use to -- them into supporting you which johnson also we live in a different time. but i don't-- barack obama is not lyndon johnson in that sense and there is no question that that is not his strength. >> rose: or bill clinton. >> you mentioned george bush. i had an interesting question with barney frank about the tarp bill. democrats and obama was in the lead on this. really saved the tarp bill in the fall of 200 will the financial bailout because a lot of republicans walked away an barney frank was in the middle. >> rose: hank paulson was secretary of the treasury. >> right. and barney frank said i never got a call with gorge bush, i never socialized with him. i didn't have a nick name. i didn't-- he said i did it because i thought it was-- the country needed us

to do it. and we kind of expected when we got to washington in 2009 that there would be some receptivity because we had a national emergency. and we thought we could find some partners. >> rose: you have great great affection for this guy as you have said in this book. >> yes. >> rose: and to to this day. >> yes. >> rose: how curious are you to see what he thinks of the book? and how sure are you that he will be clin qal in his assessment? >> well i have some sense of this because after the book was printed i sent it to him. because i wanted him to read it but i didn't want him to feel like he had editorial sway over over it. and i didn't want to put myself in that position. he had a few points in there that he mildly objected to. >> rose: oh pray tell. >> one thing i will tell you that he said that-- there were three some just stylistic things that you know, i think there were some you know, there were some course conversations

that i reported in here and imputed to him all true. and i think he would have preferred if i had omitted some of those. but you know one that he mentioned that i thought was very valid was we-- i wrote about the first debate the famous first debate in denver that was a disaster for us. >> rose: sure. >> it was a disaster because he didn't engage in many ways. and he pointed out you know you should have put in that book that you guys told me not to engage. and there is some truth to that. because he had had some really biller exchanges with john kerry in our debate prep. and we were concerned that he was going to come out and be kind of or nerey and nasty to romney and given the choice we said don't make-- don't engage. >> rose: john kerry was playing romney. >> he was playing romney. he was the stand-in for romney. but he was quite right about that. and i actually had that in some earlier versions earlier drafts. it dropped out. but on the

very positive about the book. you know and i was not uncritical there. i make the point that you brought up earlier which is that he request be off-putting to other politicians sometimes. he can lecture when he should be listening. sometimes. and that's hurt him. i think in some of these dealings. i don't think it would have materially changed a lot of things. but it's true in his dealings sometimes with foreign leaders as well. most of theme people are life-long politicians. and they don't need him to tell them what their political interests are. >> rose: what foreign leaders is he closest to? >> well you know obviously i think-- there was some friction over the intelligence revelations. but merkel merkel is someone i know he has a great deal of respect for. >> rose: friction would be -- >> and understandably so.#okdfy i think many of the european leaders he is close and

friendly with. i haven't been there for four or five years. but when i was there, that was the case. >> rose: mondayy once told me when he was prime minister. >> he liked monty. he liked monty. >> rose: monty toll me the president came in the most interesting way and asked him and to help him understand how to reach merkel. >> yeah. >> rose: in other words, you know her better than i do. fellow european, help me understand, you know a way in to making sure that i can maximize our conversations about important issues. >> yeah. well, of course she is-- so much in europe including through the ukraine situation now. >> you know, i think that he-- one of the things that struck me when i was traveling with him around the world is he was very comfortable in those-- you know i sat in bilateral meetings and i watched him deal with a whole range of issues, very very comfortably. but there were some leaders. and i had mentioned bebe

netanyahu is one of them. >> rose: do you think that will backfire on bebe netanyahu when he comes to speak at the congress? >> i think that there is obviously great controversy in israel because they know that it is putting stress on the require with the u.s. you know but i think it was a play to strengthen himself vis-a-vis the election. >> do we add the invitation from boehner or did bayne are -- >> i don't know what the truth of it is. but the reports that inician real were that-- the reports in israel were that sheldon adelson was the broker of this between boehner and netanyahu. i don't know if that's true or not. but a prominent supporter for both of them you know. and that wouldn't be implausible. >> rose: what is he going to do after the presidency? >> yeah you know it's interesting. we were talking about whether he would run one of the things that appealed to him was that if he ran and

won he would be 55 years old when he left the white house. and there would be a lot of years left for living and doing productive things. one thing he will do for sure is i think write probably what will probably be the best autobiography presidential autobiography. >> rose: maybe multivolumes. >> well, i don't know. but i know this. i think he's as good a writer as has been in the white house for many many-- . >> rose: -- tolted me she thinks he will be a writer, that is what he will do. >> yeah. >> rose: he will be like a richard nixon was. i mean without worrying about the comparing the two that he will, in fact want to write a lot and find a way to express his own opinions. >> i think if he had not been-- . >> rose: and the right forum will be to write. >> i think looking his book-- i was-- i had to go back and look at his books when i was preparing my own just for a fact here or there. and i was overwhelmed when i read them because you know

he really is gifted. >> rose: the first book was the one that everybody -- >> it was an incredible book. i also, by the way having labored over my own memoir i saw the virtue of writinging yours as you are 33 when he did. a lot less ground to cover. >> rose: to come back to this book. this really is a story of the two of you. this is a story about a journey you took with a man to the white house. >> that's-- two-thirds of the book is that. the third is my life leading up to it. >> rose: we talked about that at the beginning of the conversation. >> yes, yes yes. i consider yes it was a journey. an incredible journey that we took together. when you think about-- as i told you that we started at the point where both of us were sort of on the edge of going out of politics and from that moment on we went on this sort of rocket ride it really is it's almost an implausible thing to imagine. >> rose: so what was the issue between you and jim

mecina. >> i like jim he is was a colleague of mine in the white house. you know, and. >> rose: every political reporter knows that there was conflict. >> no we just have a different-- i think we have a slightly different approach to politics. jim you know jim is-- he's a-- an itinerant political kind of manager. and op rattive. and sees it a little bit more of a business than i do. >> rose: business means what? >> business means that your clients come. they need your help. you approach it more like a lawyer. you evaluate the-- you don't evaluate the client in quite the same way. and you go to work. you are out there searching for people who you deeply believe in to work for you're responding to people who have a need. >> rose: and where you create -- >> is that careful enough. >> rose: too. >> sorry. >> rose: but anybody who-- will understand what

you are saying. so what is happening in england where in britain where. >> he went to work for the tories david cameronment and i'm sure that is probably the big money side to be on over there. but you know. >> rose: and you are working. >> i'm working for the labor party the leader of the labor party. and the reason i did that charlie want because jim went to work for the tories. although that did get my attention. i went to work for them because i think-- . >> rose: what did you mean by it got your attention. >> well i was kind of quizzical about it. because we just fought a race here in this country around the issue of the viability of the middle class creating an environment in which people could work hard and get ahead. i think this is the challenge facing every developed economy in the world right now. technology globalization has put downward pressure on wages. has made economic mobility more difficult. has created a kind of class

distinction that we haven't seen since the gilded age. and that's what is going on in britain as well. this race in britain is very much about that same issue. and so i feel like i'm on the same side here. >> rose: you know it's a very interesting idea. it is that there have been 15 arts about hillary clinton and her efforts to find you know the narrative that she wants to address this issue. i mean if there is going to be a new political person in my judgement it will be someone that can speak to the truth of that question. >> well how do we avoid the kind of declining middle class and how do we give people again hope in the american dream. >> yeah. >> and how do you eliminate the huge disparity that exists in this country and other places. you know and it's a combination of understanding

the future understanding technology understanding at the same time with deep feeling the might of people. >> i totally believe this. and every advanced economy either will have a strategy to deal with this. or at least help. or it is just going to get worse. the reality. an here's the thing for america. we were built on a premise. my father was an immigrant and came here with nothing. my story is not unique. it's very common. and you know the idea here was that here in america you could go as far as your effort and fall ent will take you. and there was this notion that if you worked hard you would be rewarded for that effort. and that was the value around which we built our whole gestalt and economy as well. if we lose that we're going to lose fundamentally what we identify the american dream, i think if you mention the american dream

to people today the average person, they think that that is something from mythology. they don't really believe it any more. because they're worker harder and harder and not getting ahead. we've got to restore that sense to the economy and also make clear that if you start at the lowest rung you're not stuck there. now we have the worst economic mobility among the developed nation. that can't be america. and so i agree with you. i think someone the candidate who will do well and the candidate who should do well is the candidate who speaks most compellingly. >> and most effectively. >> i agree. now let me just say this. because the economy always comes up about hillary clinton. is in my experience in 2007, 2008. and remember i i worked for her once. she is a friend of mine. i have known her for a long time. the hillry clinton of 2007 was a cautious guarded

kind of cloistered front-runner. the hillically clinton of 2008 after she lost the iowa caw suses-- caucuses was a visceral, connected person who was close to the grounds spoke to the struggles of people. >> rose: and if she had been that way from the beginning and had put the right value and significance on the iowa caucus she might have become the nominee. >> she might have. you know the iraq war hung heavy over that whole deal. but certainly she was a much stronger kwan data in 2008. if she is that person in 2016, i think she will do very well. if she has the vision around it. >> rose: there are a lot of ifs. you say she can't run as a clinton. she has to run looking in the future. >> bill clinton was the one who said every election is about the future. but i don't think that's about your name. that's about what you project. >> this whole controversy has come up about the phone calls from romney. >> yeah. >> i don't know why-- . >> rose: all the people who have-- i will tell you why. because the backdrop of what

you said in earlier conversations. all the people there with you say it happened exactly like you have written. >> right. >> rose: people standing there who used the phone made the phone call with romney say no no it was exactly what the president said. >> here is all i can tell you. the president took the call from governor romney. he got off the call. and when he got off the call he said what i reported in the book. >> rose: which is. >> which was that romney had congratulated him on the great job-- you know he said we were surprised about some of the turnout you know how you got the vote out in places like cleveland and milwaukee. >> rose: sow didn't say i know how you got the black vote out. >> no, no. >> rose: he said i know the turnout you got in places we thought we were going to win. >> exactly. >> rose: you got a bet-- better turnout. >> the president interpreted that as getting the urban vote out in cleveland. >> rose: which is also a euphemism for black. >> yes yes. and that's what he said. but. >> rose: so the if the

interpreted. >> even as i heard what the president-- i didn't think romney was trying to be ungracious. that wasn't the point. you have to put it in the context. these two guys had battled this race for months and months and mondays and were looking at it through a different lens. i was kind of surprised that the romney guys elevated it to the way they did. because i don't think it warranted the response that they gave it. >> rose: evidently, they stepped forward and said romney didn't even know that detail about the campaign. he had no real understanding of that you're saying what? >> i can't speak to what romney knew and didn't know. i'm just telling you what the president said he said on the call. and it's hard to believe that the president would hang up the phone and con drive a story about what he just heard. >> rose: so do the romney people say that he didn't say anything, that romney didn't say anything about the turnout? >> that's what-- i only know what i have read. they haven't called me to compare notes. >> rose: to compare notes yeah.

suppose jeb bush gets the nomination. >> uh-huh. >> rose: and a united party which is a big suppose. >> yeah, that's a big one. >> rose: he's an attractive can dad. >> yeah he is. look i've said consistently that if he gets the nomination without subverting his views on issues like immigration reform and he can survive that process he could be a formidable candidate for the obvious reason. which is all of a sudden states like nevada colorado florida with large hispanic populations, and he's got a great kinship with the hispanic community, are in play. >> rose: and ohio has a republican governor a very popular republican gopher john kasich. >> but the real question is can he win the nomination like that. >> rose: okay. bill clinton has said to me that at this table you know you cannot in a primary campaign say things that will destroy you in the general election. >> right. but that's a discipline the last two republican

candidates didn't adhere to. they basically were center right republicans who made bargains with the right wing of their party to be the nominee. and thus made themselves unelectable in a general election. i think jeb bush recognizes that mistake. he clearly doesn't-- he said i'm not going to move on issues like immigration reform. the real question is can you win a nomination like that. and i don't know the answer to that. >> rose: if it's not him who is if do you think? >> i don't know. you look at someone the flavor of the month is governor walker. >> rose: more than the flavor of the month in a sense he is doing well in iowa. >> he has some appeal to the center right and right wing republicans. but charlie here is what i learned in presidential races. you know it's like pole vaulting. you clear the lower bars and you look good doing it. but they keep raising the bar. and the question is how are you going to do at those higher, at the higher bars. it is a very difficult excruciating process. and it tests you like

nothing elsement and it should. you are running for the most difficult job on the plan elevator. i don't know how scott walker coming out of a relatively small state and relatively small media environment is going to handle the kind of maelstrom that surrounds a presidential candidate who is on the move. >> rose: let's assume bush comes out of it with the nomination and a united party. and hadn't to split the party or make himself hostage to any particular wing of the parties. hillary clinton gets the nomination in a reasonably easy walk to the nomination. can you see anything getting in the way of her having an easy walk to the nomination? >> to the-- no i think she-- i think she is in a strong a position as any challenger has been in and open seat race. >> rose: we don't even know who will oppose her maybe jim webb. >> somebody will probably put their name on the ballot. i think she will be the nominee. >> rose: okay, do you think that elizabeth will get into this race? >> i do not. >> rose: the senator from massachusetts. >> elizabeth warren i do-- she is a friend of

mine. i have great respect for her. i think she recognizes the leverage she has. and i don't think she's going to give up that leverage until she has to as a potential candidate in terms of fund raising as well. >> right, in terms of influencing the party's direction of platform. >> rose: do you see the democratic party as essentially today a centrist party and not necessarily the party of progressive represent by elizabeth warren and the people who have maximum influence during the primary. >> i think there is one visit-- the central issue see, i think elizabeth is another version of the same central issue that you hear everybody-- everybody. >> rose: the central issue is -- >> the question is how more or less you know are you-- do you talk more about a growth or less about growth more about redistribution, less. but really what it's about is how do you create security and promise for the middle class. how do you create economic

mobility. so there's going to be some debates around what proportions there are. i mean i'm of a view that you can't-- that the message of the democratic party has to be we can't have a strong economy in the long run with a weak middle class and no economic mobility. >> rose: and do you think by election time in 2016 the economy will be in good shape? >> i think the economy is getting better. i ran into jason fuhrman around here a little while ago the head of the council of economic advisors. he says he's very encouraged by the signs. the question is does the world drag us back and that is a big concern. >> rose: especially china and europe. >> you are seeing things going on right now that are concerning. but we have something very strong and genuine going on in our economy. does that mean that you know we're going to see sustained wage growth by then. that is a big question. >> rose: that is the question isn't it the wage stagnation. >> it is it is. and it has been, by the way for a long time. remember bill clinton ran in

1992 talking about the forgotten middle class. and that was in part because globalization had begun to hit some communities. >> rose: and the success of the obama campaign he has used social media extraordinarily well. >> yes. >> rose: republicans evidently have learned that lesson and are beginning to try somewhat in 2012 and certainly in the midterms did much better at using correct? >> yes. you know but the thing is that social media and technology communication technology is churning so quickly. so the question is not whether you can catch up but whether you can foresee what the applications of it are going to be in two years from now or a year and a half from now. and so that's-- you know we were on the cutting edge of this. so we provided new applications that hadn't been thought of before two politics. >> rose: like what? >> well, first of all the way we used analytics in terms of you know

identifying voters who might come our way. the way we use social media for organizing. in ways that had never been done before. >> rose: you also had a theory of the case. >> in terms of the technology or in terms of the campaign. >> rose: in both. in terms of how to use technology to reach what was the ascendant electorate. >> yes, and we had an audience there because the president had a great appeal to younger votes who were more fluent in social media. >> rose: more so than in to 12. >> we did pretty well with those voters again in 2012. and social media was a key to that. but you know one application of social media that is really important in politics is people are so distrusting of established media sources that they want their friends to sort out the things that they think are legitimate. and that is something that we did very well. we turned our tens of millions of facebook friends into agents in terms of disseminating information to

potential voters. >> rose: do you think the president will get a chance to nominate another supreme court justice? >> i don't know. you know, that's-- it's an interesting question. elainea kagan at the institute of politics a couple of weeks ago. she obviously wasn't going to comment on her observation of the health of her colleagues. but we were-- i was wondering about that. i don't know. and it will be interesting if he does because of the makeup of the senate. >> rose: would he want to sit? >> you know i always thought before the presidential stuff really came into the fore i always thought that might be a place for him. >> rose: and if he lost the nomination to hillary hillly shall did -- hillary might have -- >> maybe so and he actually talked about her. i wrote about this as a potential supreme court justice. >> rose: absolutely right. he also said that it didn't necessarily appeal to him. >> right. i don't-- i honestly think that he is looking forward to a private life a life of

writing. he'll have a foundation. he'll work on problems he cares about. i don't see him going to the court. i don't think he is going to be william howard taft and follow his presidency with a estimate on the supreme court. >> rose: but he will live in new york. >> i'm not going to say-- i don't know where he is going to live charlie. you may be lobbying for him right now. >> rose: no, no i'm not. just based on what people know him say to me. they say the library and nobody has knows until he makes decisions but everybody in chicago like you wants him to be there wants the library to be there. >> i think it's important for the legacy to be in chicago. >> rose: on the other hand he went to columbia. >> for two years for two years. just saying you know. just saying. but chicago he-- . >> rose: all the public -- >> he is so much part of the fabric of chicago and its history. that library belongs in chicago. >> rose: and most likely will end up there i would assume. >> i think so. i think so. >> rose: if you had to do you think anything will

happen between now and january 2017? that will-- that will change. >> understanding that we don't know what is going to happen in the foreign affairs of the world. and we don't know what could be a catastrophe. we can't see around the corner. because it looks dramatically different ted than it looked four years ago or three years ago. >> there are some things pending. one is the iran negotiations that are going on right now. which have major consequences. you have the climate-- . >> rose: that would rise almost to the top for iran to forego nuclear ambitions. >> that would be very big. the climate change treaty that he gave a big push to in his agreement with china. that's coming up this year. and i know he feels very very strongly about that. that would be another. so you know, there are other things. look, but i have to tell you. i think his legacy is pretty secure. this is a president who saved the country from

economic catastrophe lead us to a better place two wars past health reform changed the way we looked at gays and lesbians. you know the whole range of things that he did. and pointed the way to the big debate that you point out which is how do we create an economy in which people who work hard can get ahead. >> rose: do you think i will find a list of all these things in this book? >> yes, i think you may you may. i am proud of him. i am proud of him because he has kept his eye on the horizon. even when the politics were very difficult. and so now i bump into people on the street who tell me that i have health care and it saved my life. and i wouldn't have had it before. i meet people who were in the service and would have been overseas fighting but were among the 180,000 or 180-- 160,000 who have now come home. >> rose: having to face new questions today. >> he is. but we had 180,000 troops

overseas in battle when he became president in harm away, in iraq and afghanistan. and he has wound those wars down. you know so there are a whole range of things. autoworkers who were on the line who wouldn't be on the line but for what he did. so you know he's kept his eye on the horizon. >> rose: this book is called believer by david axelrod my 40 years in politics this is david axle roll-- axelrod's story. thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us yen line at pbs.org and charlie rose.com.

>> rose: funding for charlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company supporting this program since 2002. american express additional funding employed by. a

the following kqed production was produced in high definition. >> and their buns are something i had yet to find anywhere else. >> and you can come to my house to dinner. >> breaded fried gooey, lovely. >> in the words of arnold schwarzenegger, i'll be back. >> you've heard of a connoisseur, i'm a common sewer. >> i may have to ward off some