>> i have seen counterparts develop into sophisticated. over time fosters a deeper more candid give and take, a more robust exchange of information and assessments and a better understanding of the world that often ultimately encourages better alignment on policy. another advantage of building and maintaining strong bilateral and multi-lateral intelligence relationships is they can remain albeit not entirely insulated from the ups and downs of diplomatic ties. >> rose: we conclude this evening with alconversation with dan harris, the co-anchor of abc news nightline and author of the book "10% happier," about

meditation. >> mindfulness is this ancient term, kind of a boring sounding term but it's in my view a game changer. there are many definitions but one is the ability to know what's going on in your head right now without getting carried away by it. >> rose: john brennan and dan harris when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> rose: john brennan is the director of the central intelligence agency, announced last week that the agency is launching a major overhaul, one of the biggest reorganizations in the c.i.a.'s 67-year history, changes including new director of digital information and broadening technological advances. spice and anists will be teamed together. this comes as the united states faces complex threats to national security. i spoke with john brennan earlier today at the council on foreign relations here in new york city and here is that conversation. you emphasized more than once the relationship with other intelligence agencies around the world. is that in any way a fallout from the snowden disclosures. >> two points. one it reflects mostly how complex this world is and how we c.i.a. have to rely not only on u.s. intelligence community

partners but we have to rely on the partners overseas because the world is a big place and as capable of c.i.a. is, we have to make sure we're able to work with the intelligence security services that have a lot of the eyes and ears on the ground and have the ability to be able to stop terrorists or proliferaters or others. so that's a critically component of this new world which is interconnected, one that we have to be able to rely on the partners and also it's just -- it reflects that despite the damage caused by the disclosures, i have found that over the past two years, since i have been alt the c.i.a., i have still a steady stream of my foreign partners who emphasize how much they want to be able to continue and build upon a relationship with the c.i.a. they see it as critical. they know that we bring to bear the insights the intelligence the technologies the capabilities as well as the approaches that they need to be able to address the many

challenges they face in their area. so i do see the world being more interconnected for a variety of reasons on a technical front and also in terms of intelligence, law enforcement and diplomacy. >> rose: when you look alt the threat of terrorism today, what is it that scares you the most about it? >> i've worked terrorism for a good part of my career and i think we see an evolution of the terrorist phenomenon, that's what i call it. dealing with palestinian terrorism and even al quaida over the years, a lot of these organizations were discreet structures and elements. they tried to migrate their philosophies to others but were mostly contained organizations. we have been able to make a lot of progress against them. i.s.i.l demonstrates the worst in developments because it has basically been a phenomenon that has snowballed in terms of its resonance appeal and they were able to make great strides

within iraq and sir. i can't roots in al quaida and iraq and branched down to syria and established the islamic caliphate. they have a fair amount of success using the technologies that are available, youtube and other things to present their narrative in ways that romanticize what's going on there. a lot of it is inconsistent with reality of iraq and syria but this phenomenon now has generated a lot of appeal. so we see boko haram inside of nigeria pledging allegiance to i.s.i.l. we see these different franchises whether it be in libya or south asia, other areas, in egypt that are trying to get on the bandwagon of this phenomenon and, so, this is a worrisome sort of global movement and phenomenon that really requires us to work with this broad array of partner services throughout the world. >> rose: is what is happening in tikrit the beginning of rolling back i.s.i.l in iraq?

>> well, i think there have been a number of things that have helped to contain the rapid spread and growth of i.s.i.l both in iraq and syria. they were on march toward baghdad and i think the iraq security forces and others were able to bolster the defenses. >> rose: how close were they in terms of on the march to go to baghdad? >> they were within, you know a couple dozen miles. they had sent out some of the forces to soften the iraqi forms. thankfully, i think the iraqis were able to coalesce in the area. now the push is to dislodge i.s.i.l from areas of iraq they have been able to take over. tikrit is a good example. we see a combination of portions, shia militants and iraqi security forces and sunni tribal elements that have brought to bear the resources to push i.s.i.l out of a good part

of tikrit. i think that is still going to be a rather intense battle because tikrit is an urban area. but also i.s.i.l has taken it on the chin in other areas. we look at kobani in the northern part of syria where for a couple of months i.s.i.l was pummeling that area to try to gain the victory along the syrian-turkish border. >> rose: could this be accomplished without the support of iranians and the sheer number of their troops? >> difficult to tell. they've brought to bear with the number of advisors and working with the coalition, the shia militia there and amassed a large enough force to push back against the i.s.i.l inroads but the coalition strikes that have taken place couple thousand strikes, have softened a lot of the i.s.i.l forces and disrupted they logistics networks.

although it's looked upon this is an iranian directed simiia militia effort there has been tremendous efforts made by the coalition in terms of air strikes and successes. >> rose: the iraqi army and mosul are they fighting better? >> the iraqi forces melting away in areas where i.s.i.l came down, they are able to regroup and training going on and a number of iraqi forces are able to augment, the existing iraqi forces out there. the coalition is engaged in trying to strengthen the forces with training and advice. this is going going to take time. i wouldn't expect things to really turn around middle east here. i think this is going to -- turn around immediately here. this is going to be a long, tough fight. i.s.i.l has a lot of material, ransacked a lot of iraqi stockpiles and are willing to kill themselves in defense of

some areas as well as go on the offense so this is a long add bloody fight. >> rose: in iraq does the combination of the iraqi forces and shia militia and the help they're get on the ground is that enough to do the job and push into mosul with the help of american air support? >> i think there will be a deliberate effort on part of iraqis along with their partners to move into those areas that i.s.i.l has overrun and, so i think what needs to be done is a very careful, strategic approach so that they don't go into battle unprepared and unready in order to prevail. i think it's important both from a military battlefield perspective as well as a psychological and symbolic perspective that you need to have those victories and successes against i.s.i.l. they're not invincible but you

need to bring to bear the capabilities. >> rose: it's also said you can never eliminate eradicate or seriously diminish their power unless you're prepared to do something about i.s.i.l in syria. >> and there is a combined effort. we're working with the government now in baghdad and we're trying to have them make sure that they do the right thing not just on the military battlefield but also the political reforms so they can get who most of the sunni community involved in the fight against i.s.i.l. in syria though, we have a government that is problematic and one of the reasons why there has been this great attraction to the region of these foreign fighters and it's the policy of this administration that assad is not really part of syria's future as we see it. >> rose: but do we need now for aa sad to be in power temporarily unless there's a negotiated settlement because we need them as an opposition to i.s.i.l as well? >> yes, this -- the crisis in syria which it is both from a humanitarian standpoint and just

from a country-wide standpoint is not going to be resolved on the battlefield, in my mind. we need to continue to support the elements within syria dedicated to moving assad out but there has to be a political pathway to the future. >> rose: do you think russia wants to be a part of that? >> i think russia is looking at the problems that have been created by the situation in syria. there are a lot of russian nationals that have traveled from chechnya and other areas and the russian are concerned about the flow of foreign fighters both to theater and back and i think they realize that assad is problematic. none of us russia, united states, coalition and regional states, wants to see a collapse of the government and political institutions in damascus. what we do want is for there to be a future of damascus that is going to bring into power a representative government that is going to try to address the grievances that exist throughout

the country. as multi-concessional country that really deserves a government that will try to represent the people that are there. >> rose: you fear from a collapse of an assad government as to who might replace him? >> that's a legitimate concern. we don't want to allow the extremist elements which in some parts of syria are ascendent now. we have the al quaida element in syria and the last thing we want to do is to allow them to march into damascus. that's why it's important to bolster the forces within the syrian opposition that are not extremists. >> do you worry about iran and iraq in terms of what happens if, in fact, the iranians would like to have a stronger presence in iraq? >> well, the iranians have clear interest because they share a border with iraq, they share quite a bloody history with rierk as well. there are the shia co-religionists from iranened

in-- from iran inside of iraq. iran has legitimate interest there. we want to make sure there's not iran manipulation and internal situation inside iraq that is not going to allow the iraqi people to live in a country that has more of a sense of instability than they have right now. >> rose: any coordination on the ground using the iraqis as a middle person. >> with the iranians? >> rose: yeah. i think there there'sen alignment of some interest between ourselves and iran clearly in terms of what i.s.i.l has cone that. so we and the iranians work with the iraqi government and some of the terrorist through the iraqi interlocutors are advancing common interests against i.s.i.l. >> rose: the iranians and nuclear capability, what else it for you an essential requirement in terms of an agreement?

>> clearly, already aspects of iran's nuclear program that need to be addressed and that will give we the united states as well as countries in the region and international partners comfort that they're not on the march to a nuclear weapons capability and that involves enrichment capability and what the limits are going to be in terms of what type of enrichments we're going to be able to retain. also cutting off other pathways to a nuclear weapon. trying to make sure that you are going to have the opportunity to inspect facilities with the verification regime so that there's not going to be this breakout. and these are the arrangements, and it's a multi-dimensional package of things that the negotiations are looking at. i might say in my experience in the government, looking out over the last six years or so as the march toward the negotiations has progressed, there has been a very intense deliberate,

careful effort to try to understand all the different dimensions of the iranian nuclear program as well as to address all the of the areas of consideration and concern. this is not something that is being done in any happen hazard way and i must say that looking at what the united states government is doing with our partners and how this has proceeded this has been the most careful and deliberate experience i've seen as far as negotiations to come out with a result that is going to help the prospects of peace in the region and also prevent further nuclear proliferation. >> rose: in other words you're comfortable with an agreement that they're working on now? >> i am comfortable that the parties to the negotiation on the u.s. side are going to have minimum requirements here that we're not going to reduce, that we have to have that confidence and comfort with the arrangements, again not just what iran has agreed to but allowing us over the course of the agreement to have confidence

that the terms of the agreement with being upheld. >> rose: turning to ukraine, what else your sense of what putin is up to, and did he get involved in over his head as some have suggested? >> i think russia and putin clearly have strategic ambitions as far as the area along the western border of russia, as far as exerting russian influence in countries there, and concerned about checking what i think they perceived as a western and n.a.t.o. influence in that area. so i think putin has gotten himself to a point where there is, i think, international consensus about not allowing russia to continue to march in this direction. thankfully over the last several weeks we've had a reduction in the amount of violence that is there, but i would look to mr. putin to say how he actually

is going to get himself out of this predicament where the russian economy is i think facing serious challenges as a result of sanctions and how the international community and western nations i think are united in pursuing. >> rose: is it in our interest to find a way out? >> i think it's always in our interest to find a diplomatic and peaceful way out of these items and i think it's incumbent in the united states as the leader of the western and free world to help to shape this, but the countries in that area that have very serious concerns about other types of russian activities in that region need to have a very strong voice and, so we see that our partners, you know the germans and others are taking a leading role as well. we need to continue this. >> rose: someone in the administration once said to me they worried most of all, they lost sleep most of all over the possibility of some russian making a mistake and a kind of

loose nuke idea. is that something that causes you to lose sleep? >> i think in any situation where you have there's almost a game of brinksmanship as far as the various chess moves it has the botential for escalatory cycle. and there can be some devastating attack or development to provoke a reaction and a quick series of reactions to that. so whether we're talking about a place like ukraine or the situation between north korea and south korea, it has the potential. so i think there must be constant issues that even though they're simmering, this is the time to try to keep those tensions at bay. >> rose: how do you do that? very active diplomacy and sometimes you need to bring to bear the various tools of power.

the united states has a lot to it and sometimes sanctions and other international type activities. but i think on these issues the united states recognizes rightly that there are not unilateral solutions and pathways here. it is important for us to work with our part fears and gain international -- >> rose: and do we include in our partners china? >> absolutely. china plays a very important role on the world stage, increasingly so. obviously, their economic power is critically important to a lot of, you know, countries in the world. we have regular interaction with the chinese. we are trying to make sure that, as we engage with the chinese on east asian issues, we're also cognizant of the fact that the chinese are playing more of a role in various parts to have the world. they have strong commercial interests but they also realize there are geostrategic and political obligations as they a

continue to move forward with the march. >> rose: what are their ambitions? >> i think they say china's size capability and power gives it a place on the world stage that may have been different than what it was ten or 15 years ago and that's why i think they're looking at the various superpower relationships and find a way to advance the chinese interests in the coming decade or two. a very careful strategic approach on how to expand china's influence. >> rose: and consolidating power and increasing military. >> and keeping the chinese economic engine going. it's been decreased a bit because of the world developments but also he needs to be able to fuel his domestic engine of growth as well. >> rose: what's the threat from china on the cybersecurity arena? >> well, if you look at nation states around the world, engagement in that digital domain and cyber, there's so

much activity and information going on out there, so some countries will believe that any activity and digital name is okay if you advance your business and commercial interests. this is where the norms and standards of behavior in the digital environment are important and a number of discussions we've had with the chinese and others about what we think is inappropriate activity in that realm. but it's not just a question of the large nation states and adversaries in certain areas. there's just a lot of capability developing in the private sector companies around the world so any country can tap into the capabilities that might exist in these companies and utilize id for their purposes whether national security, personal, political business, whatever. >> rose: how do you measure the tension between china and japan today? >> when you look at asia, you know, there is one issue out there which the north korea which is a problem.

china, south korea, japan and other states with the unknown actions of kim jong-un as far as where he's going to next. i think this is worrisome. there are issues that certainly divide south koreans, the chinese and the japanese. we would like to see a greater dialogue between those companies. >> rose: we're committed to their defense, south korea, china and japan. >> there are reregulations and treaties that underscore how important those relations are with those countries. >> rose: talking about the levels of reform that are initiated, when you went to the c.i.a. i understood you're saying we would like to see the c.i.a. do less paramilitary kinds of things. was that true and do you still believe that? >> the c.i.a. throughout the course of its history has played an important role in different areas and one of the areas has been in covert action. almost every president since we

stood up 68 years ago has utilized the c.i.a. covert capabilities. i believe the c.i.a. needs to retain the paramilitary capability, should that the chief executive officer and military need us, the c.i.a. needs to be prepared. by concern is that the c.i.a. has a lot of responsibilities worldwide. i want to make sure we're able to address those different responsibilities cape capably across the board and not swing widely one way or the other. in the last 15 years with 9/11 with the situation in iraq and afghanistan and the counterterrorism efforts, we've had to utilize a number of paramilitary skills and capabilities working with our partners in order to address the threats we face and thankfully the c.i.a. had that capability and experience. so it's not as though i'm trying to diminish it. i'm trying to make sure this is

part of the motivation behind some of the reforms is to fulfill our responsibilities across all of the areas we've had globally. >> rose: c.i.a. and its analytical function and how you see the challenge of the next 15 years and how you have to change and adjust to that challenge. >> the world is becoming more and more challenging. nation states are under increasing challenge and threat. more and more, we see individuals in different corners of world who are identifying with subnational groups and organizations and so just the authority of nation states and governments i think is being looked at in a different way than it did just 20 years ago and, so, this is one of the things that we really have to be able to understand and participate and work with foreign governments because if you're going to have basically a dissolution to have the nation state structure we've had for centuries it's going to be even a more chaotic world. on the analysis, we have to not only help to inform policymakers

about those trends and developments worldwide but analysis for c.i.a. has taken on many more dimensions than it did when i first joined the agency in 1980. at that time c.i.a.'s analytic work was really exclusively limited to the finished all source analytic products we give to the president and others. now analysis drives so much of our activity, whether we're talking about collection whether we're talking about different types of operational activities or covert action, that analytic insight, taking full advantage of the intelligence we get through various means as well as taking advantage through -- of the increasingly rich open source environment and social media so we're better able to inform our activities and policymakers. so analysis is becoming more and more of a driver of different elements to have the c.i.a.'s mission. >> rose: how would you measure success against i.s.i.l. >> first of all success has to be preventing their encroachment into syria and iraq as well as working with partner services to

identify elements cropping up in other places. but those are some milestones and i think success is going to take time, it's going to take, you know years in order to further diminish and discredit not just their capabilities but also their attractiveness and appeal, and we need to expose just how murderous and psychopathic these individuals are. >> rose: what's the difference in bill clinton and barack obama? who asks the better questions? >> oh, boy... (laughter) they're two of the most impressive individuals that i have had the opportunity to engage with. >> rose: having said that... (laughter) >> well, it's because they had tremendous ability to absorb information, digest and also correlate it. i remember sometimes briefing president clinton on something i briefed him two or three months previously and would be briefing him and he would bring it up and i had forgotten it. same thing with president obama.

they both have voracious appetites for information. >> rose: president obama specifically, have you seen an evolution in how he views national security? you were in the white house when he came in the white house, has there are been an evolution in how he assesses the threat to the united states the tools he wants to use his willingness to use the employment of force? >> well, i certainly think that there has been a natural evolution. any president who comes into office doesn't really have a good appreciation of what they will encounter during their term and, over the past six years, the president has, i think faced more to have the strategic and significant, necessary challenges than, you know, a lot of his predecessors. so i think he has gone to school. he understands the complexity. he also understands the interdependence of a number of these issues as well as the importance and the imperative of working with a lot of our partners. the united states doesn't have the unilateral ability to shape the case of world events.

it has to work with a lot of our partners. so i think the president is looking at whether terrorism or ukraine or north korea or cyberissues, i think he recognizes just how complex the world is and what he has told me and the c.i.a. and the intelligence community is we need to continue to evolve ourselves so that we're better prepared to deal with the challenges ahead of us and not just be dealing with the challenges of the 20th 20th century. >> rose: some argued that the c.i.a. did not see the arab spring coming, it did not see ukraine, it did not see the rise of i.s.i.l. if those were mistakes why? >> you said "if those were mistakes"... (laughter) >> rose: did you believe they were? did you believe the c.i.a. saw the rise of those three things as significantly as they should have? >> i think certainly we had identified a number of developments and trends that were leading in that direction.

whether it be in the arab spring, for years, the c.i.a. and intelligence community were pointing out how some of the authoritarian regimes within the middle east and the arab world were vulnerable to this type of popular reaction, but were we able to, you know, determine the forecast that there was going to with a tunisian food salesman that would self emulate and set tunisia and the arab world on fire? no. but i think the conditions were something that were identified. but it getso the point there have been so many developments recently and a lot more populous when we look at it that the traditional ways of intelligence collection may not lend themselves to giving that insight, so having somebody in a senior government position who's going to be whispering in our ears might be giving us not the right perspective. we need to have a better sense of what's happening in the streets. that's why looking at sort of social media and other things you can maybe have a better sense of the barometric

conditions in a country that are going to be more conducive to the forming of a storm. in ukraine, people say, well you didn't predict that putin was going to do this or that. well, i think we identified what were the pros and cons and what his calculus was but quite frankly, i think putin as well as other leaders have not determined what their next chess move will be until they see their opponent's chess move and they will move accordingly. so intelligence is not a panacea as far as having a crystal ball. what we need to be able to do is help policymakers understand some of the forces at play and how certain developments and actions may affect that calculus and i think that's what's important for c.i.a., placial in this world where we have so many challenges across the board. we haven't even talked about africa latin america cuba nigeria. this is something i think we need to stay attuned to because we have this global mission that

requires us to have all different types of access information, human sources different types of technical capabilities, having the insight having the expertise, being able to work with individuals and the council and other parts of the private sector that we will be able to flush out our appreciation and understanding of developments. >> rose: john, thank you for coming. john brennan, c.i.a. (applause) >> rose: dan harris is here. he is a co-anchor of abc news nightline and author of the book "10% happier." he covered stories from mass shootings in newtown to combat in iraq and afghanistan. his most terrifying moment as journalist happened while filling in as news reader on good morning america. he suffered a panic attack on air in front of an audience of 5 million people. the episode led him on a journey to retrain his brain through meditation. he tells the story in his new book in paper back called "10% happier." i am pleased to have dan harris

at this table. welcome. >> thank you. i'm very pleased to be here. >> rose: an honor to have you here. let's go back to that moment and people who don't know the story because it's been so significant in your life. >> yeah, i mean, it was, i would say, at that point probably the worst thing that ever happened to me and in many ways it turned in a weird and winding way turned out to be one of the best things that ever happened. i was filling in as the news reader on good morning america and the job is to come on and reis a series of headlines. i had tone it before and i had no reason to foresee i was overtaken by this bolt of fear and my heart was racing any lurntion seized up, my palms sweating and mind racing. i couldn't breathe and i had to quit in the middle and toss it back to the main anchors at the time diane sawyer and charlie gibson. afterwards, i went to see a doctor to try to get to the root

of what had gone wrong. i knew it was a panic attack. it was unmistackable. i went to a doctor and he asked me a series of questions to get to the bottom of the issue. one to have the questions is do you do drugs. i kind of sheepishly said, yeah i do. he leaned back in his chair and said okay, moron, mystery solved. he pointed out that even though i had -- my drug use was kind of sporadic at the time, it was enough to raise the level of adrenaline in my brain and prime me to have the panic attack. we talk about the drug use as well if you want but that kind of stemmed out of my career of covering war and when i came home from spending many, months in iraq and afghanistan i got depressed and did this really stupid thing which was i self-medicated. >> rose: how long did it last? it lasted about two years and ended ten years ago. >> rose: what kind of drugs? cocaine and ecstasy. >> rose: a lot? depends on how you define a lot. it wasn't like the wolf of

wall street. >> rose: yeah, sure. it wasn't every day and it wasn't while i was at work and definitely was not when i was on the air. i like to say i was stupid but not that stupid. >> rose: he knew instantly. oh yeah. there was no further discussion. >> rose: and so what came out of that? >> well, it isn't like a neat and tidy thing where i found out i had been a dummy and then -- >> rose: but it's a book. also a book. you know what alfred hitchcock said, what did he say about movies, it's just like life except you take the boring parts out. >> rose: exactly. that's what you do with a book. but i'm honest about it in the book and the doctor said you've got to quit doing drugs i quit doing drugs. i went to see this doctor once or twice a week for a long time. it was actually something else that set me on the path, it was the panic attack and something else which set me on the path of finding meditation. my boss at the time peter jennings, no longer with us,

sadly, he told me i was going to cover faith and spirituality for abc news. i told him i didn't want to do it because i was raised in the people's republic of massachusetts by a pair of scientists. i did have a bar mitzvah but only for the money. it's not something i was interested in doing. (laughter) he said, i don't care, you're going to do it anyway. >> rose: yeah. as a result of that ultimately, after learning a lot about faith and making a lot of new friends, ultimately through -- we can go into it if you want -- but through a set of strange set sf circumstances i stumbled upon meditation. >> rose: what about religion? i spent a lot of time in mosques and mega churches. >> what did you get from that? meditation? >> no, but the way the world works. >> rose: and the forces that impact the world. >> and the lenses of which most of our co-inhabitants of the planet view the world. >> rose: the prism they see.

absolutely. and raised as i was in the northeast and, you know, i don't think i had had a serious conversation with a person of faith in my adult life until i got this assignment. all of a sudden, i was thrust into this world where i made really good friends and saw frankly how ignorant i was. here's what i really took from it. i saw the value of having a world view that transcends your own narrow interests which was very valuable for a young and extremely ambitious report snore and that's really an eye-opening experience to see that, you know there's something larger than you are, you know, in a sense that you are simply part of a larger something and to see that in a sense tempers your or adds to your value of appreciation. >> absolutely. there's no question about it. and what i like about meditation -- there are loot of things i don't like about it, but one of the things i like about it, it's a way of

hammering home that understanding into yourselves daily. that appeals to me. that really appeals to me. it's a very practical thing to do to provide you with perspective. that's one of the many reasons why. >> rose: you do it about 30 minutes a day? >> i do. i hesitate -- i think there are a lot of reasons why a lot of people don't meditate. >> rose: you have to do it every day. >> people tell themselves i don't have time for this. >> rose: sure. i know people have proposed to you in the past maybe you should consider meditation. i don't know what your reasons are for not doing it but i suspect one is maybe i don't have the time. i think five to ten minutes a day is enough and you can start with that and tell yourself you will never do more and that's fine. >> rose: i tell you the question i have not been able to overcome about it. i would do it in a second and friends of mine have told me how much it's meant to their life.

serious people of great accomplishment say it's one of the most important things about their life and it's added to their life in monumental ways. i am a world-class napper. i don't know what it does for me that napping doesn't. >> a lot. >> rose: what is it? first of all, convert me. (laughter) i am strongly pro-nap. like you on a couple of days a week i anchor a morning show. i need naps. i also have a newborn at home and i like his model of sleeping. i try to do less crying. i'm not trying to say you shouldn't nap, i just think you should add this on top of it. there are a couple of reasons it will help. first of all, the word meditation is like the word sports. it describes a whole variety of activities. when i'm talking about meditation i'm talking about mindfulness meditation. >> rose: mindfulness

meditation? what is that? >> i'll explain it. >> rose: your introduction to meditation. >> ready class? first big benefit is your ability to focus. so we live in an era that's been described as the info blitzkrieg where we're besieged by tweets and texts and status updates. >> rose: information overload. absolutely. so what you're doing in meditation, most meditation is you're trying to focus on one thing and then you're going to get lost, start thinking about what will i have for lunch, why did i say that dumb thing to my boss, what about dances with wolves in 1991 -- and so on. you're focusing, exercising the focus muscle in your brain and that's very useful in an era where your attention is fractured and besieged all the time. benefit number two is

mindfulness. mindfulness is this ancient boring-sounding term but in my view a game changer. there are many definition bus one is the ability to know what's going on in your head right now without getting carried away by it? without getting carried away by it. >> the ability to see what's happening in your mind without necessarily being the fish that bites the hook and gets yanked around by it. you whether you're aware have an internal charlie rose that's i amerring at you before you open your eyes and all day. it has your wanting stuff not wanting stuff, judging other people comparing making choices, many impulsive, comparing yourself to other people, thinking about yourself. my friend sam harris who also wrote a book about meditation we're not related but we're friends, he says when he thinks about the voice in his head, he feels like he's been kidnapped by the most boring person alive

who just says the same stuff over and over again, most negligent "saturday night live" how are the voices in your head different than mine, whatever mine might be? >> i think there's a lot of similar later between everybody's voice because it tends to have a series of characteristics. one is focus on the past or the future to the detriment of the present. it's focused on you. it's largely negative and very repetitive. in mindfulness it can be kryptonite. >> rose: how did you come to the yofd meditation and how you found the right meditation for you and how you end up with "how i tamed the voice in my head, reduced stress without losing my edge and found self-help that actually works." if i can say to people out there, i want to help you tame the voice in your head, reduce stress and do it all without losing your edge, i'm also going to help you find self-help that actually works send me a dollar. >> bert yet, send it to me.

(laughter) i think, first of all, the subtitle mentions self-help in. some ways, that's where it starts. i had been assigned to cover religion by peter and as a consequence of that i sort of stumbled into self-help and i interviewed or got turned onto a guy who is a massively successful self-help guru. >> rose: what is self-help some. >> kind of like i said before, 3 the word-meditation "describes a lot of things. self-help is an ill-defined term. basically, books that help you improve yourself, develop your potential. >> rose: there are lots of those books out there. >> there are and a spectrum from very bad to only kind of bad. and i think he would spefort call himself a spiritual teacher. anyway, i read his book and at first i thought it was irredeemable garbage.

it was filled with all this grandiose language about how the book was going to create a spiritual awakening for you the reader, filled with pseudoscientific claims and he add one point even claimed he had a spiritual awakening and afterwards lived on park benches in the city of london in a state of bliss for two years. i'm newt meteorologist but i think they have winter. at first i was completely unimpressed with him but then he unfurled a theory about the human condition i never heard before and his theory is we all have a voice in our head. you have an inner charlie rose that is -- that is in a constant conversation with you and most of us are unaware of it. this is the first person i ever heard talk about this. so i was intrigued. i went and interviewed him, as you know one of the luxuries of our job is if we read a book, are interested in the person, we

interview him. so i called him up and interviewed him and asked him what do you do about the voice in your head, have you got any practical advice? and he took a breath and said -- he took a beat and said well, take one conscious breath. the voice in my head was saying, what the hell does that mean? and i kept pressing him with practical, actual advice for dealing with the voice in the head and he didn't have anything. it was kind of like he had pointed out that my hair was on fire and refused to give me a fire extinguisher and put me in a position of being intrigued about his theory of the human condition but i didn't know what to do next. i hung around with a lot of self-help gurus and i met a lot of people who argued you could get whatever you want by the power of positive thinking which is a horrible idea. and finally my then fianceé and

wife and baby momma bianca said i have been listening to you talking about all this stuff and it sounds similar to what i read a couple of years ago and handed me a book by a buddhist psychiatrist. i started reading and realized all the stuff i love best about eckhart toly seemed to have been taken from buddha. >> rose: did you call him up and say i read that book? >> no. the buddhists unlike eckhart tolly have a practical suggestion fog dealing with the voice in the head and that's meditation. i didn't want to do it. i thought it was for hippies and people into cat stephens and i thought it was completely ridiculous. >> rose: do you know any of those. >> i grew up with a lot of them.

my parents were hippies and made me go to yoga class when i was five years old and this is kind of like pre-yoga. they were early adopters and not in a good way. the yoga teacher made me take my jeans off and do the stretches in front of my tighty whities in front of all the other kids so that gave me an impression about all things new agey and spiritual. then i found medication can lower blood pressure boost immune system and rewire the key parts of your brain that have to do with focus, compassion basic well being and then i decided to do it. and the other thing i learned -- >> rose: how long did it take you to get into it? >> it's a more complicated question than you might imagine because the first time i did it i hated it, but i also realized it was not hippie nonsense that, in fact, it was exercise for the brain. so i had two simultaneous

reactions -- one is this is really hard and i suck at it and two, i get why this could be really helpful and i'm going to keep doing it. so i resolved i was going to do five to ten minutes a day in perp toperpetuity and i stuck wit and it made a difference. >> rose: what difference. the key difference is this word mindfulness which i discussed before. most of the things we do in our life that we're most embarrassed about -- i think most of the things we do in our lives about which we're the most ashamed are the result of impulsive mindless actions. >> rose: i agree with that. so, for me, it was what was the most mindless thing i ever did. it was going into war zones as an ambitious young guy without really thinking about the consequences, coming home, getting depressed and being inl sufficiently aware to know it and mindlessly self-medicating with cocaine and ecstasy. i think if i had had meditation

on board back then i would have avoided that. i wouldn't have abook but i would have avoided a panic attack. i have a different set of problems now but it helps me navigate a very stressful career in ways that reduce my emotional reactivity and make me calmer, a better listener, a better colleague, a better husband. i'm less likely to eat the 18th cookie, i'm less likely to say the barbed comment to my wife that will ruin the next 48 hours of my marriage. i'm more likely to look at my baby cooing than checking my email. those are the benefits. >> rose: having said what you just said if in fact you did not do that ten minutes a day on the seventh day would you be more likely to be all the 1hings you just said you're not? >> yes. >> rose: so without six days of that -- or two days -- the old dan would kick in. >> yeah, i think so. >> rose: that's amazing.

i can see it. there are times in my life where i can't meditate. >> rose: much better than napping. napping breaks me down to a sense of -- i wake up fresh. fresher from. >> if you don't sleep you will literally lose your mind. there are significant health benefits. >> rose: there's a ton of medical information about sleep and one incon trough veritable fact that we need sleep. people brag they need little sleep they're either a tiny minority or they're kidding themselves. >> i'm not proposing meditation is a silver bull it. there's a reason why i went with the title 10% happier. >> rose: i always wondered why you went to 10% and i assume it's like that. >> yeah. just to get back to sleep i

just think that when it comes to happiness i'm a maximalist, so i think we should pull every lever we can. get enough sleep eat well, take the meds your doctor prescribes. >> rose: get love, be loved, love, all that. >> i think meditation which for too long many of us have rejected should be an arrow in the quiver we avail ourselves of. >> rose: is there any substitute for meditation? what ought to compete with meditation for the result of meditation? >> i don't think anything does. personally, in my experience. >> rose: that would be your answer. >> people ask me this all the time, what about my gardening, is that meditation? what about my running, is that meditation? i'm not anti-gardening and definitely not anti-running. i think meditation can be anything you pay attention to, right. just paying attention is one of

the main ingredients of meditation. i just think that you need a couple of minutes a day of formal practice in order to really get it. >> rose: when you say meditation what do you mean? >> okay. so i'm talking about mindfulness meditation which is the kind of meditation that's been the focus of most scientific studies. it is simple and secular and you don't have to join a group. you don't have to wear special outfits. you don't have to believe in anything. it is derived from buddhism but has basically all the buddhist language and metaphysics stripped out. i talked to one of the tech reporters in the "new york times" in fewer letters than it takes to send a tweet. so it's not complicated. sit with your spine straight and eyes closed and the second step is to focus your full attention on the feeling of your breath coming if and going out.

the third step is the key. as soon as you try to do this as soon as you try to just focus on the feeling of your breath, your mind will go nuts. it's going to start wandering. you're going to be asking yourself silly questions, doing your to-do list whatever. and then you just want to notice when your mind has gotten carried away and start over and start over again and again and again and again. every time you do that, it's a bicep curl for your brain. your are literally rewiring your brain. it's also a radical act because most of us have trouble paying attentiono the present moment. our life is a fog. we are wrapped up in rumination about the past and projection into the future. you are happily an outlier. >> rose: how has this changed your life? >> publishing the book or meditating? >> rose: take meditation first. >> it's made me calmer and happier. but if my wife was here, she would give you the 90% still a

moron speech. i am not perfect. >> rose: how does that speech go? >> she would just list the dumb things i've done in. >> rose: in the last 24 hours. or maybe 18. >> rose: i like her, already. she doesn't take me too seriously. publishing the book has been really interesting because i really worried about the drug stuff. i thought that it had the potential to derail my career. and in fact my mom with whom i'm very close and for whom i have a great deal of respect sent me an email about four weeks before the book came out and said, don't do it. don't publish it. ill freaked out. i had two meetings that day, one with diane sewer and one with ben sherwood who ran the news at that time. i told them what she said. they said, we love your mom,

she's wrong publish the book, we've got your back. and i'm glad i did. it's definitely the most important professional -- >> rose: decision? -- yes, and also it's the best and most impactful story i've ever covered, and i'm not talking about the part about me, i'm talking about this public health revolution that's brewing with meditation. it's the good news mental health story of the century and to be able to talk about it in a way that some people have reacted to positively has been extremely gratifying. it's also, i will say humbling. you know how people get up at the oscars and say it's humbling to have won an oscar? i think that's baloneyy. when i say humbling, i mean it truly. what i realized is all this concern i had about the reputational issues for me that most people don't really care about me. they find my misadventures

mildly titillating. what they really want to know is what do you have for me. >> rose: exactly. that is humbling in a good way. i recognize what i'm recommending to people i have more and more faith in every day. >> rose: the book is called "10% happier." finally a true story, dan harris actually works. congratulations and i think self-awareness is a remarkable thing and the more that you can somehow bring to bear anything that helps you do that makes you a lot more interesting person. thank you. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> rose: visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com for more episodes.

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a kqed television production. >> i was like sort of old fisherman's wharf. maybe a little like -- with a -- >> the calories, the cholesterol and the heart attack you might have. >> like an adventure. put it out of your mind. >> oatmeal with a touch of dog. >> i did