>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight we take a look at the israeli elections with jeffrey goldberg ari shavit yousef munayyer lisa goldman. >> this was a refer run demon benjamin netanyahu. he won big time. he is perceived in israeli as the only presidential figure that attempts to replace and fill. this was also a referendum of hope versus fear. and sadly fear won over hope. >> rose: we conclude this evening with helen mirren. she's back on broadway in a new play called "the audience" and once again she plays queen elizabeth. >> the only thing that prime ministers have said is that they tell they could say things to the queen that they couldn't say to thin else am because she's in a position of knowledge but at the same time she's got to keep her mouth shut. so they felt they felt free

with her, and in a way it became a kind of for some of them t became a kind of a strength. >> rose: the meaning of the israeli elections and the talents of helen mirren when we continue. >> funning for charlie rose is provided by the following: >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city this is charlie rose. >> rose: israelis went to the polls yesterday and electsed a new parliament

the right wing likud party of benjamin netanyahu was pitted against a surprisingly strong candidate in the center left isaac herzog they were shown in a dead heat but completed returns showed a decisive victory for netanyahu. earlier today he pledged to work quickly to frm a new government declareing that quote our government's reality does to the give the luxury for delay. joining me is jeffrey goldberg from berlin national correspondent for atlantic magazine. from injuries limb ari shavit, a columnist for haaretz and author of my promised land yossi halevi is a fellow at the shalom hartman institute and author of light dreamers, the story of the israeli paratroopers who reunited jerusalem and divided a nation from tel aviv ronenbergman he is senior military and intelligence correspondent for yedioth ahronoth. and yousef munayyer a executive director of the u.s. campaign toned the israeli occupation. here with me in new york

lisa goldman she is the israel palestine fellow at the new america foundation. i begin first ronen with you. tell me because we only have ten minutes on the satellite with you. and i want to get you in early. tell me what happened in this election? >> i think this was not a vote for netanyahu. he's not a magician. i think people dislike him in israel am he lost his charisma and he lost much of the trust. the last election the final results as we see them just prove that regrettably to my opinion this is a right wing nation. people, most of the people are-- belong to the far right or the central right and people believe that after 20 years of a failed peace process there is no partner at the other side. the move that benjamin netanyahu did since he decided to go to elections the defines of the u.s. government bringing iran to

the-- prirlt at the top of the agenda radicallizing his views taking off the mask of his right wing approach denouncing his own support for a two-state solution all lead to a-- mentality and at the end of the day it worked for him if the because of his personality but because of ideology. he won the election. >> rose: ari shavit, what happened? >> i think this was a referendum on benjamin netanyahu and benjamin netanyahu won big time. he's perceived in israel to be the essential figure that attempts to-- but there was also a referendum of hope versus fear. and sadly fear won over hope. in this sense i think the blame is not to be put only on mr. netanyahu and right wing israelis. the blame is to put on all

of us. because we did not address the legitimate fears of the majority of israelis. we did not address the fact that the previous peace attempts have failed. we did not deal with the arab -- terrorists around us. we wanted to believe that israelies had to believe in a utopian kind of peace which they do not. as a result of that by not dealing with the legitimate fears of israelis our collective traumas we played into the hands of the extreme right. and we enabled mr. netanyahu in a brilliant way to manipulate those fears and bring about a troubling israel. >> rose: i want to come more about the future of israel but jeffrey from berlin and following as closely as you do what happened? >> i think netanyahu is a guy who knows what he's doing. i'm not attaching a value to that. i'm saying that he knows how to manipulate voters to get what he wants. remember he did not grow the right-- he did not grow his right wing base what he

did was cannibalized votes from other right wing parties. people who have split off from his party sometimes in frustration with him by in the last days doing making two moves that were quite bold and quite consequence. the first was to as was mentioned renounce his own support for two-state solution which is going to enormous consequences not only obviously in the peace process but in israeli-u.s. relations. by renouncing that he convinced people who had broken away from him that it was safe to come back to him. and the second piece of it which is even pore disturbing on a social level is that he played what i call the southern strategy the southern card israel style by appealing by scaring his base by literally going out and saying the arabs are voting in droves. meaning israeli arab citizens. so you better get to the

polls because the arabs are voting. that was a very kind of lee atwater move. it was the introduction of a certain kind of american politics that we associate with the south into israel. app that might have the longer lasting consequences am he could always walk back his denunciation of the two-state solution and say well that's to the what i really meant, what i meant was, and fill it in. i'm not sure president obama will believe it but tas's another question. but on the israeli arab front that is going to-- that's going to have some long-term impact. >> yes. i think that israelis were confronted with a very hard choice. on the one hand, the prospect of a narrow right wing coalition thoughtful israelis realized was likely to lead to greater isolation of israel internationally. and on the other hand a narrow left wing coalition would likely lead to an

undermining of israel's deterence in the middle east. a weakening of israel's position on iran especially israel's willingness to confront president obama on this eminent deal with iran. and so israelis were confronted on the one hand with isolation, on the other hand with weakness. and the public chose to take the rising of isolation. >> i think what we saw in this election was really the continuation of a trend that we've seen and that is a shift a general shift of the electorate and a right ward direction, parties that had in the past been associated with the center or the left have themselves also moved to the right in terms of their positions vis-a-vis the palestinian. but i think most importantly i saw confirmed by the israeli electorate not just in the results of the election but also during the

campaign, was that the occupation is simply not a matter of concern to the average israeli. remember, this is a state that rules over the lives of 4.5 million people through military occupation occupation. and there are routine human-rights abuses that are featured in this military occupation. and yet the major scandals in israeli politics are about the price of cottage cheese and what the prime minister's wife did with the bottle deposit money that she has. and so until i think the israeli electorate cares about the crisis the human rights crisis that their state presides over we're unlikely to see any change from within. and i think that has been a trend that was reconfirmed by this election. >> rose: i will come back to that point. >> first of all i have been saying from the beginning that i was certain that netanyahu would be re-elected. >> rose: why were you certain? >> because the numbers were in his favor. and because the primary

opposition the zionist union didn't offer an alternative plan. that it's true that the economy is a very big issue for average israelis. and the most popular viral campaign clips that were become shared only social media throughout the campaign focused on not being able to make a living on the cost of living and the low salaries. and that's-- so that was, i think why a lot of the analysts looked at the massive positive response to these clips. and said yes that's what the israeli voter really cares about. buying an apartment and being able to make it through to the end of the month. israel right now has the widest wage gap in the oecb. >> rose: okay. >> but i think that in the end, let me finish a quick point, i think in the end what really happened was netanyahu launched into i think it was as jeffrey who just called them lee atwater tactics jz jeffrey would -- shall. >> rose: jeffrey would foe lee atwater. >> i think that is a clever point. but what he really really

did was very classic populist campaign technique. >> rose: i want to go right to ronen on that very point. and ask this question you will understand the meaning of it. did the prime minister win this election or did herzog lose this election. because they did not make the case that they needed to make? >> yeah it's like playing soccer in front of an empty-- an empty field. i think that netanyahu was extremely vulnerable as said before they did not offer an alternative agenda on most of the topics. they did not put the occupation as something that could threaten the future of israel. but unfortunately i do not believe that even if they would have run a better campaign it would change the results significantly. the only time in the recent the past three decades when the labor party won a clear victory was in 1992 by prime

minister yitzak rabin the reason was a combination between the despair of the israeli public from the palestinian uprising and economic crisis. i think the only way and i'm not-- the only way that the results of the next election would change would be if the international boycott against israel would gain momentum and the israelis would see this in their own pockets and their own financial capabilities. in any other scenario we will have the caesar from-- anet ntsb being the prime minister again and again and again. >> rose: what due fear most for the future of israel. >> i think that we are going to witness another clash of violence because the palestinians especially after seeing these results and the coming campaign of settlements in the occupied territory this is going to result in another clash in

a third intefatah and the world is set up with occupation and the-- of israel with economic sanctions are going to be next. while the american administration and this is something in the result for benjamin netanyahu to support them is going to step aside and do nothing to prevent this from happening to defend israeli. >> rose: thank you. i known that you have to go. ari tell me what you fear the most and we are looking now at netanyahu. he says he can build a coalition in two or three weeks. where does he go? >> first of all let me tell you what i fear. first of all i do fear that we will see the deterioration we might see a great political battle and then god forbid violence because right now there is no hordzon for any positive-- i fear the process where rather than launch a two-state dynamic

that would lead to a two-state that would eventually lead to a two-state solution, we will end up in one state dynamics that are endangers israel morally demographically and politically. but i also fear for israel's own soul. this was a battle for israel's soul. we see dark forces in israel. i think they are a minority. but they are an energetic dangerous minority. and what we see is a total fear of the israeli center left and center to mobilize to energize to inspire. we did not go through the process that you went in america with bill clinton for long time we did not only-- we don't have a bill clinton, but we did not bring clintonianism. we did not find an approach that will address the challenges of the right. and again, i think that this is a challenge not only we

should not only talk about netanyahu and the right. this is a challenge to liberal democratic israelis. and it's a challenge to the international community. only if it will bring about a new kind of realistic peace process that addresses the middle east chaos look at what happened in tunesia today. and addresses the failures of the peace process and then allows and demands of israelis to bring about the benign side of our lives. israel is fundamentallically a benign democracy. but this democracy is now endang ared in a serious way. so i hope that this will be a wake-up call that we will not go into despair but we will see this crisis as a great opportunity to relaunch an offensive a moral offensive to save israel's soul. >> rose: jeffly, what do you think of what ari just said. >> he made a number of very important points. one of them is that this is a volatile situation. a dynamic situation. israeli society is very

plastic. there's no reason to necessarily think that these trends are-- the importance one of the important things to remember out of this election is that the right didn't really expand its base. it is true that the left is continuing to shrink but i think ari is on to something-- one of the things that is interesting to me is a lot of what is going on in the right of israeli is the magazine any fiv-- magazine anyification -- the-- the dysfunction of that relationship do impact on the decision-making. so that dynamic will obviously come to an end at a certain point. but i believe that this next government is going to be a fragile government. i believe that we can be looking at elections assuming that there is a narrow right wing government with let's say 63 seats in the knesset this is an

unsteady an unsteady coalition and a farrow coalition. we could be looking at elections again. i think one of the unspoken or less talked about stories of this moment for obvious reasons is that the labor party has come back in quite a strong way. 24 seats mourbe herzog the head of the combined party did not run a flawless party by any means but there is a great appetite for what he was talking about. and they are to the going to make the mistake of going into a unity government. >> rose: lisa, where does it go from here. >> well i don't agree that there is going to be an explosion of violence in the west bank. i spent a lot of time in the west bank and it's that place is locked down. and i just don't see-- i do not see a third intefatah on the horizon. i also don't see any kind of a positive message coming from the center left of the

zyonist union. what i do see something very interesting a phenomenon that we haven't yet touched on is that the third largest party in the knesset right now is the party that represents the palestinian citizens of israel. 20% of the population of israel is palestinian. it's not the people who live in the west bank under occupation, they don't live in gaza and they don't live in east jerusalem as israeli i.d. holders. they currently that party currently holds 14 seats. and the head of that party has been preaching a very compelling line of civil rights and democracy and equal rights for all citizens. and you know he's a car is matic guy. he's a 40-year-old attorney and he's really captured a lot of imagination. and this is unprecedented for the third largest party in the knesset to be a party that represents the palestinians. >> rose: i want everybody to jump in. but let me go back to yousef. yousef,. >> i think we've had a lot of politics and fear with this election.

but if i am concerned about one thing in the immediate short term it's the affect of the extremely hostile rhetoric of the israeli prime minister against palestinian citizens of israel. like myself and whether or not that that may lead to attacks against members of that community. and i would disagree with others who think that this is really borne out of an electioneering tactic of a lee atwater esq thing if you will. this is really about zionism as a palestinian citizen of israel i have been a demographic threat and called a demographic threat to the state of israel since i was born. this is the language that is used there to talk about not just palestinians in the west bank and gaza but palestinian citizens of israel. >> rose: jeffrey, you know the obama administration well. what impact do you think that election will have on how they view their own options. >> well this is a pretty liberating moment for the obama administration and in

fact. particularly on the palestinian issue. let me address the iran issue just for a moment. the relations are so dysfunctional, and so bad and so confrontational that netanyahu will not get the hearing that he wants to get in washington and ultimately as ari suggests it's not the israel benefit on what is coming down the pipe on the iran question. but i get the sense just doing a lit bit of reporting today that what they are thinking about in the white house is more more the palestinian issue than the iran issue. look for several yearsed obama administration has been arguing to its european allies. let's not internationalize this conflict. let's not bring it to the u.n.. this security council sill not the right place to deal with it. the two parties the palestinian authority and israeli government have to negotiate together. now you have the prime minister repute yating the two-state solution. that is for the obama administration, a signal

that it can't help its european allies its arab allies. look we're going to try to keep this as a matter for direct negotiations because one of the party now says it no longer wants to negotiate a two-state solution. so at the u.n. in the coming months it would knot be surprising at all to see the u.s. lift the diplomatic equivalent of the iron dome rocket system. the iron dome is an american-funded anti-rocket system that covers israel. the diplomatic iron dome is something that's been as effective in its own way for the past several years. it's protected israel in international opinion at the u.n. a quarter of the members of the u.n. are muslim majority states and obviously israel has a hard time dealing with the u.n. the. the u.s. has been the protector. i'm not sure the obama administration is going to play protector because its argument is taken away from it by netanyahu. >> the scenario that he is

laying out here will out the obama administration in direct confrontation not only with the netanyahu forthcoming netanyahu coalition, but with the strong majority of israelis. most israelis today believe several things about the middle east. what one is a palestinian state is an israel's existential interest. and that's very important for yousef to hear. and on the other hand most israelis at the same time believe that a palestinian state created prematurely under current conditions of a disintegrateing middle east would pose an existential threat toician real. if netanyahu says yes to a two-state solution in principal no to implementation at this time he will have a majority perhaps a strong majority of israelies with him. in at the same time the obama administration consummates a deal that formalizes iran as a nuclear

threshold state then we are-- we are entering into a two-pronged confrontation between jerusalem and washington. and here again netanyahu will have strong support. in the public. david grossman the israeli novelist and the conscience of the israeli left said the other week that the obama administration's policy on iran is criminally naive. now if that is what we're hearing from david grossman then virtually a gross -- across-the-board there is a sense that the administration is moving in a very dangerous direction. and netanyahu will certainly enjoy the support of much of the public. >> rose: i have to end it there. thank you all very much. it's an extraordinary election and when you look ahead all of us will be fascinated as to what comes next. and what this government

looks like what happens in the iranian negotiations and where do we go here in israeli-palestinian conversation and relations and what happens at the united nations. thank you all for joining us. we'll be right back. helen mirren is here she is an academy award winner ago esch as you know in 2003 she became a dame of the british empire. she currently stars on broadway as guess who the queen, the play is called "the audience" it offers an inside look at the private conversations queen elizabeth has had with her prime ministers over the past 60 years. the associated press calls it a touching portrait of power and majesty. she also stars in a film called "woman in gold" she plays a real life jewish woman who reclaims the artwork stolen from her family in 2002. here is a trailer from the film. >> your son is a letter. how he is. some letters i found in my belongings, i need advice from someone i can trust. >> can't you just help me on the side. >> there is no on the side.

this is a full-time job. >> -- yes, this is my aunt. painted by gustav pinsk. >> quilt a painting. >> it was taken off the walls of over home by the nazis. and since then she's been hanging in the bell very deer gallery in vienna. >> now you would like to be reunited. >> wouldn't that be lovely. >> and then there's justice. >> you really think a painting that ends up as a fringe magnet will ever leave austria. >> it would be a mistake not to take a look. >> couldn't you drive faster. >> i wanted to buy perfume and cognac in duty free. >> i never thought i would come back. that's our home on my wedding night. half of vienna was here. >> mrs. altman, welcome to vienna. they're going to put as many obstacles in your way as possible. >> we are going to try to find a copy for your aunt's will. >> coy have searched for the file on your own you know. >> i wasn't going to miss

all the fun this was like james bond and you're sean connery. >> the painting belonged to mrs. atman's family. >> she is the mona lisa of austria. we will fight you until the end for something we believe is ours. >> they destroyed my family. they killed my friends. and they forced me to abandon the people and the places that i loved. i won't let them humiliate me again. >> here to file a lawsuit. we're taking the austrian government to court have. a nice day. >> there's no way you're going to win. >> we didn't come here to eat cake. all along you supported-- and closed the doors in my face. >> ladies and gentlemen this is a moment in history. >> once the past has been put to right we will not have come here in vain. people see a masterpiece by one of austria's finest artists. but i see a picture of my aunt, a woman who used to

talk to me about life. we should be reunited with what is rightfully ours. and can't you drive a little faster. look the chocolate on your doughnut is melting. >> rose: i'm pleased to have dame helen mirren back at this table. welcome. >> thank you charlie. >> rose: we have much to talk about. is there any similarity between these two women? anything that comes to mind. >> the queen and maria altman? >> rose: yes. >> yes, i think there are sharpities, actually. they both have a sense maria in a way more than the queen maybe a sense of refinement. and elegance. and self-discipline. and and fierceness maria again maybe more than elizabeth windsor. but i think there are similarities. i think that maria would have made a great queen. >> rose: yes. they dote it seems to me know who they are.

>> yes yes. i mean very different because maria obviously was ripped away from her roots an her memories and her youth. maria altman really had her youth taken away. >> rose: by the nazis. >> ripped away by the nazis an indeed her family and her memories. and that's why this painting whats so incredibly important it represented family and memories. the queen of course the queen of the united kingdom is exactly where she was born where she grew up where everything is-- she's deep in her tradition. >> rose: but she knows who she is and knows the role that she has inherited. >> elizabeth windsor absolutely. all that fell upon her, in a way she inherited it. of course she wasn't born to be the queen. she was born to be the queen's niece. >> rose: because her father's brother was supposed to be the king. >> exactly. her uncle abdicateed. -- an digated. suddenly the spotlight fell

on her. >> rose: so yes you are busy yes you have lots of opportunities, so when peter pore began calls you up peter who you know -- >> for this play. >> rose: yes. >> no, he didn't call me he e-mailed me. he said i have written a play and i just would like you to look at it. you know it's about the queen and her audiences i e-mailed back a two word e-mail. you bastard! cuz i knew that he knew -- but i knew that he knew that it would-- . >> rose: in the end. >> in the end, i would have to do t you know. and i was so cross. >> rose: in fact you said no. and then you said yes. and didn't you basically you saw them in a room the writer and the director and -- >> i saw the writer the director i saw steven daldry, one of the greatest directors in european theatre. i saw bob crowley, one of the top five designers in european theater. i saw robert fox, one of the greatest producersing i looked at the three of them

don't be ridiculous you are going to walk away from this. you are never going get to do this again this is incredible. >> rose: is it easiest or more difficult to play her. and you knew peter from your previous. >> of course from the film yes. >> rose: is it easier to play her on film or on stage? >> or does it matter? >> oh well, it does matter. neither is easier. it's very different. >> rose: how is it different. >> you know doing the movie the film was the first time that i had done it that anybody had done it on that scale. so you know the implications of it were sort of terrifying how it might be received and what flack we might receive. the second time we know you know now those things are accepted. and are known about. but i-- maybe in a way in the film it's a very different animal anyway. because on the stage i go

backyards and towards in age and that's tough. you know that's a difficult challenge. but the essence of the queen may be harder on film because you know it's closer. and you've got to have that kind of working. >> rose: the interesting thing tell them what the play is about. every week is it tuesday? >> every tuesday. >> rose: the queen meets with the prime minister. >> the queen meets with the prime minister for 20 minutes, no longer. just so the prime minister lets her knows what's going on politically you know. but it's a completely sack ro saj-- sacrosanct space in the sense that neither the queen nor the prime minister ever talk about what they talked about. >> rose: and there's no one else in the room. >> and there's no one else in the room. and it is not bugged. >> rose: we think. >> we hope. but it is completely and utterly private. and it's one of the few places that either of them can feel utterly secure in the fact that no matter what they say in this space it will not go any further. >> rose: so peter had to imagine.

>> so peter, of course imagines everything. the only thing the prime ministers have said is that they felt they could say things to the queen that they couldn't say to anyone else. because she's in a position of knowledge but at the same time she's got to keep her mouth shut. so they felt free with her and in a way it became a kind of for some of them it became a kind of a-- . >> rose: and you see her going from churchill to cameron. >> yes. >> rose: and churchill where she was what 26. >> and churchill who had been a friend of the royal family. >> well absolutely. obviously and through the war and all the rest. he must have been very present. >> rose: in counsel will her uncle when he made the decision. >> yes, absolutely yes absolutely. was very against that i think. >> rose: and her attitude had to be a certain sense of awe. but she was the queen. >> yes. yes she was the queen. yes. of course. you know that early scene where she is young she doesn't quite know what

she's doing. and he's kind of, you know he's training her up if you like. i love that scene. >> rose: steven daldry has said that the queen is the most invisible public woman in the world. >> yes. well as we say at the end of the speech you know the invisibility required to execute the most visible job in the world. and it's very true. that sort of constantly on the public's stage you can't afford. and i think in the end that was the great problem is diana she couldn't sublimate herself you know all of her emotions all had to be out there. and with elizabeth windsor you know she has trained herself over many many years that it's not about me. it's not about me. i'm a symbol. >> rose: and soon she will be the longest serving monarch succeeding overcoming queen victoria, i think. >> yes. >> rose: you think she will

die in office don't you? >> oh she has to. i'm not saying-- but you know yes. >> rose: she has to meaning that is how she perceived the role. >> that's how the role is. she says there is no abdication they don't abdicate just because they are tired wz rethought that about popes. >> we did. but one does. >> rose: speaking -- >> well i guess i don't know. but that is the sense, i think within the royal family is that you do not abdicate. you carry on until it's your time to go. and then-- and even then it's very interesting you you don't mourn the passing of the old king you sell brat the arrival of the new monarch. >> rose: how well do you know her? >> not well. i mean i don't know her at all. >> rose: you met her. >> i have met her yes i have. but i have met-- the little-- is the one out

there. >> rose: that is a wonderful part of the play too. >> i listened to an interview by whoopi goldberg and she was being interviewed. and they were saying what is life like at home. and the interview said yes but what about that she said that's not me that is whoopi goldberg. she said that is the person i am when i go out and i'm whoopi. at home i'm not whoopi. and i think it's the same with elizabeth windsor. >> rose: but you have said in some way they're aliens because we foe so little about them. yet we know their public life. >> we know everything about them. but we cannot possibly imagine. >> rose: what it's like to be. >> what it's like to be them. to have lived that life since you were born. it's impossible to imagine the biggest rock star the biggest most hugest most politician the wealthiest man or woman in the world. can have no con premention of what that's like. so-- pre mention of what that is like so they have to be-- they have to have lived

life that nobody else will ever live except another monarch i guess. >> rose: what is it you admire about her? >> is that in part? >> i enormously admire her sense-- her self-discipline. you know her incredible self-discipline. and it is true you know as we say she's never has not turned up because she wasn't feeling with. you know she's very careful about her health so she never lets people down. she arrives on time. she leaves on time. she does what she's needed. it's not electrifyingly exciting. but it's what is required. and that unbelievable continuity and the self-discipline and the self-discipline requiresed to do that, i think she naturally had a sense of duty a sense of you've got to do the right thing. you just have to. >> rose: what did you learn by watching her mannerisms the way she holds her head the way she looks, the way

she talks. >> well you know you are a bit like a deckive sort of digging away at little details. i found the same with maria altman you know. i never met her. there are people alive who knew her. i never had the pleasure of meeting her. all i had was film to look at. so you are watching that film just looking for little moments that you can just go oh i see. i felt it was very interesting with the queen that there is it is not a nervousness or neurosignificance but there's a very controlled thing. but she does this with her ring like this she twid eled her ring like that. just that one little tiny thing. and everything else is calm and relaxed. and just her little finger is going like that. and you know it's little things like that that you notice. >> yeah. >> rose: and she always does this when she sits down. always -- >> always huts her skit

straight so it doesn't crimp el under her-- crumple under her she always does that. >> rose: beyond understanding her the physical man fess cags what shaped your own sense of the queen? >> i guess you know doing the film that was the first time. i think before i did the film, the queen was like big ben. she was there. i drove past her regularly. i saw oh there's big ben. that's kind of cool. i never thought about how big ben worked or if you could go up big ben or you know. i didn't think about it. and the queen was the same. and then you know doing the film, i had to suddenly think about her. and as i thought about her oh my god, what she's done is kind of incredible. you know and i-- the more the research i did was sort of deepened and my respect grew actually. i think she is you know i'm an elizabethan.

the amazing thing is apart from my elder sister my sister is a couple of years older than me. the queen is the one person who has been in my life the longest. my parents are gone you know. i was-- . >> rose: and what does that mean. >> the queen was there from the moment i was born. and she's still there. and she's still a part of my british you know not raison d'etre -- >> british being. >> yes. >> rose: let's talk about-- the reviewers love your performance. some don't like the film as much as they love your performance. >> it hasn't really fully been reviewed yet. so let's hope-- . >> rose: that wiser people will appreciate the film as well as you. >> because it is, i think it's a truthful film. >> rose: and a woman you liked. >> oh yesment i didn't know her. but i-- oh she was quite incredible. and what she did, of course what extraordinary. but you know i wish she was

alive to see this happen and be around. >> rose: she died when in the process. >> after she got it back. >> rose: she got it back. >> only about three or four years. >> rose: she was about 94. >> she was older than me when this whole thing happened. she was in her 80s yes. i think they were longing for her to die so they wouldn't have to give it back as we kind of say in the film. it was an incredible journey for an older woman. >> rose: is it a story of justice. >> it's a story of justice of memory and above all justice. and reclaiming your memory your life from the people who took it away so unbelievably brutally. >> rose: your costar ryan renold-- reynolds says that it is a love story. >> it is that as well yes. you know a strange relationship between randy shernberg.

>> rose: the lawyer. >> the lawyer and maria altman two l.a. you know people who come together and he rediscovers his roots which i think you know, i have a line in the film which actually i wrote,. >> rose: what you have a line. >> yes some of that stuff in the trailer i improviseed. but anyway, it was a wonderful script. but i wanted the line because people forget you know, especially the young. and of course they do. why should they remember. but they have to be you know, you have to remember. and we've all sat i'm sure you know and listened not us all but of my generation you sat and listened to your parents going on about the second world war and went god, do i have to hear all this again. you know but then the reality of it begins to hit home as you get older and more knowledgeable. and wiser. and then you think oh my god

what an incredible generation. and what incredible suffering. what-- an amazing achievement to get through that and come out the other side. >> rose: how did you go about preparing for it? >> i watched-- obviously i watched maria altman. but more than that because i just, you know i couldn't really look like her. she was has a very noble face. i'm a slavic peasant really by comparison. but she has this wonderfulfully truly aristocratic looking face. and i could do the accent and wear the hair but i couldn't get inside that mind and those memories. i had to just remember that story again. so most of my work was in reading holocaust material again looking at documentary again and just reminding myself of that

particular unbelievably time. >> rose: i remember a move yee you made in which a woman was in search of some nazi killer. >> that was the debt. >> rose: the debt exactly. >> again, same research in a way. same memories having to remind yourself. it always pays to go back. and remind yourself. >> rose: your faefer who was the son-- your father was the son of immigrants. >> in fact my father was an immigrant. he came to india when he was two. he was born in russia, yeah. >> rose: did that play a role. >> i don't think so because onestly-- honestly it was different. >> rose: but coming to a new place where you don't know any wayne. >> my grandfather became a taxi driver. in that sense of history coming and just wiping your whole family a certain side of your family history gone you know. and my father embraced that and really said no awe

simulate you live in the present and you go forward. and that was very much his attitude. >> rose: but when you look at the career you have had would you have had it any differently? would you have liked more earlier? >> yes i would have loved to have done more movies earlier. i unfortunately hit-- you really want to talk about me charlie. >> rose: yes, i do. very much so. >> do you? >> rose: yes. >> oh god. anyway, when i was in my sort of golden era if you like between 27 and 37 a greatera in anyone's life male or female are you at the top of your game. you are getting to be wiser. it was a very bad time for british film. it was a terrible time am confessions of a window cleaner just awful. so there was no british film industry at that time. and so you know it wasn't until actually really until i came to america-- prime

suspect was great. i did a lot of great tv. >> rose: it was huge it did something like 14 million viewers for prime suspect. >> yes it was very successful. but hi done a lot a very good tv at that point as well. >> rose: so you would have like to have more film roles. >> brirb film was alive and living on television. and it was. >> rose: but you could be essentially notwithstanding how old you are i mean you work all the time. >> i do. yes i do. >> rose: are you in the prime of your career so to speak. >> i don't know. >> rose: you were on broadway, in a film. >> it has been great for quite a long tile. i've always gone between film and tv and theater. >> rose: you could be in prime for a long time. but -- >> yeah. >> rose: but it is as good as it has been. >> absolutely, definitely definitely. and i have to say to be starring on broadway is fabulous. >> rose: dow love it. >> it's so great. >> rose: what is good about it? >> it's that thing to see your name up in lights. it's pathetic but it's great. >> rose: you walk on the mar

queen-- marque and there it is helen mirin. >> my sister and i were looking. >> rose: even now you get excited. >> oh yeah, definitely definitely fantastic. >> rose: did you say also that your greatest guru was francis bacon? >> yes. of artistic claim yes. >> rose: how did he influence you? >> well, of course he is a great painter obviously. but you know he wrote-- there is a book called interviews with francis bacon and he put forth the concept which at that time i just hadn't thought of of the tension between inspiration and technique. and the way accident is very important in art but you can only achieve accident in a full way after you've fully mastered technique. snordz in other words he said you know it's true.

children under the age of seven are all every single one of them a genius painters. they are genius because it is totally instinctive. but you can't be painting as a seven-year-old when are you 14,so you know you have to move forward. and then you go through this painful process of learning technique when you have lost all your instinct you have lost all your inspiration you are just learning how to draw a foot you know. and then you get through that. and now you can allow accidents to happen, you know open to accident. you've got all the technique. you've got all that. it's so deep in within you you don't even have to think about it. you've got to become thoughtless, the technique. and then you can allow inspiration to come back. the master of this is al pacino the absolute master. >> rose: he's coming here this week. >> oh is he. >> tell yes. >> it is a master of allowing his-- he is

technical, he knows where the camera every mark he hits he hits a mark. never fails you know. he knows the cutting the editing. and then within that very structured form which film is very, you know very tight he is utterly free and it's just so inspiring to be around. >> rose: so taylor directed him. >> he did devil's advocate. >> rose: let me go back one harold wilson labor. >> yes. >> rose: is probably as left as any prime minister to have served. >> yes. >> rose: had the most special relationship with the queen. >> yes, he did. it's true. >> rose: why was that? >> she just liked him. >> rose: his personality. >> i think what she says in the play and it's true as far as i understand you know, one will never know for sure until we read her diaries which won't be for long after she's dead. >> rose: she's keeping diaries. >> i'm sure. they have to don't they i

think they do. i think they always keep diaries. >> rose: part of being queen. >> he why i think it's part of being the monarch. >> rose: here is queen elizabeth the secretary with prime minister harold wilson. >> can you imagine you ever thought you would be prime minister, did you? >> rose: oh goodness no no no. there is a photograph of me taken outside downing street age 8 which some people interpret it as such but no there was never any scheme or plan. half the children in millsbridge where i grew up never had any boots or shoes to their feed. they wore clogs because clogs lasted longer. as children we never had any dreams or hopes beyond survival. i nearly died of tie for identification they say. and now i'm here drinking tea with the queen of england. >> mrs. wilson must be very proud. >> oh no she's furious. no she must preferred our lives in oxford as a young

-- wife. doesn't care for the limelight or the westminster life. certainly doesn't care for our new home. >> downing street. >> living in the office she calls it. >> you know my husband feels the same way about this place. he absolutely loathes it. we all do actually. >> rose: no. >> yes. >> rose: no! >> yes! >> water what a boob. >> rose: why you were laughing throughout that. >> bill makes me laugh. yes you don't see because of the wide shot that i deliberately look away to give him time because she knows that he needs the sugar. so he can get the sugar. i sort of deliberately look away for a moment the politeness. so funny. >> rose: now go back going back to the movie for one clip from the movie this is where maria altman is talking to her lawyer randy schonberg played by ryan reynolds about the idea of reclaiming the painting that they had lost during the war. here it is.

>> s this's quite a painting. >> it's magnificent. she was taken off the walls of our home by the nazis. and since then she's been hanging in the bell very deer gallery in vienna. >> rose: and now you would like to be reunited. >> wouldn't that be lovely. >> make you a rich woman i'm sure. >> do you think that is what this is about? no, i have to do what i can to keep these memories alive. because people forget you see. especially the young. and then, of course there's justice. >> rose: i asked her what she would think if she were watching this. >> -- i asked you what you would think if you were watching this. >> oh that's not bad. >> rose: this is interesting about you. follow me here. >> sorry. >> rose: so many people come and because of the quality

of certainly pieces in which they filmed ted theater but even performances on film, -- >> i do that sometimes. >> rose: but you seem to enjoy this though. >> maybe i'm just saying that. well theater you never see that you know, we never see that but i have no idea what i look like when i'm doing this stuff. >> rose: they film the whole thing. you can watch it if you wanted to. >> i can't do that that's funny. >> why not. >> because i might hate myself in which case i would be so-- . >> rose: you have hated yourself in any performance? >> not in totality no. but there are moments. >> rose: which one gives you the most despair. >> despair, thank you charlie for asking me that. >> good question. that's unfair because then i would be dissing the work the film you know. and in theater you can't-- you

have no idea whether it is-- . >> rose: so which one are you proudest of? >> i did love the debt actually. >> rose: i did too. >> i loved that film. >> i loved that. >> rose: especially the end. >> especially the end. the gear atrick fight between two very old people. that was great. >> rose: revenge sometimes can be sweet can't it. >> yes, justice not revenge. >> rose: but the power of memory too. >> yes. but you were saying i was thinking and you have to put your mind into those moments. i was thinking about the research i had done about as i told you earlier looking at the-- you know at the documentaries reading the books and putting-- i had to put my mind back there visiting -- which i had done a few months before. and you have to go back there because -- otherwise

it's meaningless. you have to. so that is what i was thinking about there. >> rose: when is this play over? >> end of june. well maybe-- end of june at the moment. >> rose: okay, at the moment. so what can you plan what you are going to do next? >> not when it's that far ahead, no. because that was quite a long way ahead. usually projects start bubbling away two to three months before they, you know the work starts. i mean this play i had signed up to doing this play a year ago. that's usually unheard of. by being an opera singer or something. >> i read somewhere that you said cuz you've got a bunch of homes. >> not a bunch of homes. >> you have l.a., you have britain, you've got london. you've got where else? >> italy a little house in italy. >> rose: and why not actually. >> yeah. >> rose: but you said-- you said you never stay more than three or four days in any -- >> no more than three or four days. but very rarely more than

three or four weeks. >> rose: weeks. >> kind ever a gypsy. >> we are gypsies. ackers are. we are. we are all like that. we have to be that's the way it is. but that is what is great about the theater. you are stuck. you cannot leave new york until the end of june. so i'm really happy to be settled in 1 place. >> rose: and thank you for coming. >> thank you charlie, thank you very much. as usual. brilliant. >> rose: for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us on-line at pbs.org an charlie rose.com captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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