>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with an appreciation and remembrance of a friend. his name was don keough. joining me for the conversation muhtar kent, father john jenkins, timothy shriver and warren buffett. >> he wrote about don keough and he was much more than that. he was a wonderful family person and an incredible father and statesman. >> rose: we continue with a conversation with leon wieseltier. >> every time the argument goes back to the question of rights, the discussion shuts down. the beauty of the partition idea or the territory idea of the two

state idea of the terrorist for peace idea is it suspends the argument for right because both people have the same right to the same land. no such thing as having a right to half of something. so the only way to proceed, and the ancient rabbis knew about this when they wrote about torts, is to divide it. we can argue about the kind of division and the terms of the division, but the principle of the division as the essential condition for an end to the conflict it seems to me conflict it seems to me indisputable. >> rose: remembering don keough and talking to leon wieseltier when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by:

>> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: a young man named don keough worked for the butter nut coffee company when acquired by coca-cola in 1960. his life after that was never the same. he would go on to lead coke as president and chief operating officer from 1981 until he retired in 1993. during that period revenue rose from to 14 billion from 1.9 billion and annual gain 15% annually. don keough said i kept my head down, jumped into a creek which turned into a river which turned into a gulf and grew to an ocean. all i did was swim. he loved meeting entrepreneurs

from around the world who had plans for businesses. "it is a lot of people betting on the future that keeps me young." don keough died last month at 88 after a brief bout with knew moan. i can't we look back at an appreciation of his life. we're joined by muhtar kent, father john jenkins, timothy shriver and warren buffett. i am pleased to have them here. don keough was a friend of this program as well and a good friend of mine. so friends celebrate him and appreciate him this evening and so, i'd like to begin with you, warren. tell me what he meant to you, because you go back further than any of us in knowing don, who became a neighbor. >> yeah, don moved in right across the street from where i live now in about 1960, 1959, perhaps, and his front door was

100 feet from our front door and believe me, there was a lot of movement between those two doris. he was a wonderful friend 55 years ago and that friendship continued every day until a week or two ago. >> rose: here is an interview he did with me talking about buying the house next to you warren. part of a document rii did about you. roll tape. how close did you live to the buffetts? >> i cross the street. i bought a house there in 1959 a three-story brick house, paid $27,500 for it and i there was a young fellow living across the street in a big house, he paid $30,000, i think, for his. his name was warren buffett. nobody knew who he was. he was a nice guy. i think he and susie had three kids. we had four working on five. you know i got to know him. he wasn't easy to know because

he didn't -- you didn't see much of him but my kids did. of course, the real story is he came across the street one day and said don i love your kids. i said i know. he said, you know since about college. getting kids through college isn't easy. i said, warren, i'm working on grade school. we'll get to college later. he said, i've started a little fund, people putting money into it, and if you gave me, say, $10,000, i think i could build that up into something. well, charlie, i didn't give it to him for two reasons -- one i didn't have it. i could have borrowed it from my father. but i went in to mickey and said can you imagine giving $10,000 to a guy who doesn't get up and go to work in the morning? (laughter) that was one of the great

decisions of my life. >> rose: if you had given him -- >> don't ask. probably over 400 million. we're still friends today. (laughter) >> rose: remember that warren? >> i remember very well because i worked out of my house for about six years, a little sewing room off the bedroom. every morning when don would go off to sell coffee, his oldest daughter kathy would come over and we had a jungle gym with the slides and swings and the last thing he would see me when going to work is me pushing kathy or her pushing me. that made him a little leery to give me the $10,000, but when he came over later he asked if he could give it to me retroactively (laughter) >> rose: did you ever remind him how much snifts. >> he seemed to do pretty well himself. also interesting that two guys living across from each other,

both living in houses about $30,000, he ends up being president of coca-cola and we ended up buying a lot of stock in it. >> rose: and we have the c.e.o. to talk about that. you said three words to describe him -- everybody loved him. >> that's absolutely true. how many people 88 can you make that statement about? but everybody did love him. it was intergenerational. i loved him. my two wives loved him my kids and grandkids loved him. hoe could connect with anyone and he could connect immediately and he knew more about people and human nature when he was 20 than i've learned in 84 years. incredible man. >> rose: muktar what did he mean to you. >> warren was right everybody loved him and respected him. not just the customer or truck driver or store owner, heads of government respected him.

he was just a wide giant of a person. i don't think i'll ever meet someone like that in my life. i think if you're really, really lucky, someone like that comes across your life once, if you're really really lucky. and that's who don was. i met him very early on, very early '80s when i joined the coca-cola company in 1978. ever since that time, you know we had an incredible bond and close relationship. he taught me all i knew about what i had to know. when you think of peter drucker's book the effective executive, he wrote about don dahler. don -- he wrote about don keough. then he was much noorn that. he was a wonderful family person, incredible father and statesman and he knew he could go up and down. he could go from 50,000 feet all

the way down to zero and go right back up again. so those are things that are not always learned. he would learn till the day he passed. every single day. he would say your brain is like a sponge it keeps taking it in, and you have to open it to get more information in every day. again, you know, when i told my life he'd passed she started crying. that's how people so loved him. >> rose: fair to say you wouldn't be in a position you're in without -- >> without any question that he was somebody that touched me and i've become what i am as a result of that. >> rose: father john jenkins? had a close relationship with notre dame? >> yes. i had been president of notre dame for ten years and his

saying, stay nervous and avoid complacency, had a huge impact on me. he was very generous with resource but most importantly generous with his vision. he challenged you to be better and he had an inspirational way about him that made us better. that's why we have near st. patrick's day one of the great iran study centers because don insisted on it because he was a proud irish-american. >> rose: he said this great university doesn't have a irish studies program and you need one. >> it's the fighting irish and you don't study irish? we went to the best from zero because of don because he inspired you to do great things. >> rose: special olympics started in 1968? >> i think 1968. we owe the poor decision don

made with warren buffett's office because my mother went to him at the beginning of the special olympics movement and said i have about 10,000 athletes and want to grow it. he probably heard an echo of buffett's voice and said i'm not making this mistake twice. (laughter) listening people talk to don and going to his funeral, charlie the thing that struck me was how many people talked about him as a dad. this is a generation of men who grew up to be powerful in politics, business, literature and the arts they weren't really known, to be honest, most of them as dads. this is a man who when you look at the full story of his life, almost everybody refers to mickey, almost everybody refers to his children and grandchildren, almost everybody alluded to the fact he was always there at the little league game and the drama show. this is a man who somehow came

through the 50s and 60s and 70s when the role of men and business was changing, when he was in one to have the most competitive businesses in the world challenged to swim in an ocean, he said, and still managed to convince everyone around him that his family was the most important thing in his life, which i find so inspiring in men today. >> rose: had a closing relationship with your mother? >> he did. he saw something about business before most people and my mom was captivated by. this he saw business had to be about values not just about bottom line. he knew he could build his business if he had people who believed in his brands and products and trusted his products and understood it was a promise and the promise wasn't just inside but all around the bottle. my mother was enormously charmed. the special olympics movement today is 5 million athletes but it would not be where it is right now were it not for the fact that one corporate executive who had a global

portfolio yao owe and a giant heart saiding this something our business can believe in that will be good for human beings and this company, too. >> rose: the heart there as an executive in coca-cola was reflected in the trips he made where he would go and see coke employees around the world and bring the heart of the company to them. >> don got involved with the world of -- the globe in the 1980s when he really became the president and chief operating officer and, from that minute on, it was like he was the person to go -- the go-to person for everyone in the united states of america of what is happening in the world. so quickly, how can someone just start this journey and become so quickly -- have that knowledge, have that inspired knowledge? and he basically always had wisdom that he was willing to share with everyone.

and now the thing is, so, there wasn't a period of time when after he retired, i would meet prime minister of poland the president of the czech republic, prime ministers all across the world. the prime minister from austria. how is don keough? they wouldn't say how's business how's everything? how is don keough, please give him my best years after he retired. still happens today. and we got letters from all kinds of statesmen that are in their '80s, -- 80s, 90s, retired say we just heard our condolences. and it's very unusual. it's the man. it's who he is. >> rose: what was the

relationship and partnership he had with roberto so that they became, as some have said, a a perfect combination? >> they were a perfect parentship. i've seen probably three or four partnerships in business that stand out from all the rest and certainly when roberto and don combined their strengths it really was a case of two plus two equaling a lot more than four. they were complementary to each other in an extraordinary way and neither would have achieved the success they did without the other one, but don was indispensable to roberto. i watched that for many years. let me tell you one story that i feel i owe it to don to tell this because he never talked about it, but we were up in sun valley one time and we were playing a golf match against his son clark and my son-in-law allen, and we really wanted to beat these young guys.

we were three down, and i forget whether it was the fifth or sixth hole, but we were three down and it was starting very badly. we got to this par 3 and i said, don, the only way we're going to turn the tide is if you knock this in, and he actually hit a hole in one at that point, and totally destroyed these kids. we went on to win the match. (laughter) don never told that story but you can confirm it with clark and allen. >> rose: there's always the story he told me about discovering your investment in coca-cola that somehow roberto may have asked don, somebody's buying our stock what's going on? and he said to roberto, let me make a phone call, i know a guy. and he called you up to say -- >> well, we bought about 6% of the company and i don't like anybody to know when we're buying because it causes the price to go up, so i didn't tell anybody. all of a sudden, the phone rang

and i picked up the phone and i can remember his exact records, he said warren, you wouldn't be buying a share or two of coca-cola stock, would you? (laughter) and the cat was out of the bag. >> rose: they bought a lot of shares, did they, muktar? (laughter) there's also the sense of understanding the company and its brand. no one was a better communicator of what the brand meant and what it meant to him and which he talked about. he said i define my role to protect and enhance the trademark of the company. >> he would always say, i have a very simple job. all i do is go in every morning, wherever i go to, working for the coca-cola company and its bottlers, and i polish the brand a little more each day. that's what he would say and that's what he did. and he did it so masterfully there was nobody living that

personified the brand better than don until he passed away there was just no one that came close. that's why we -- you know, we named our current leadership academy at the coca-cola company the don keough leadership academy. >> rose: teaching young leaders of the company? >> teaching young leaders of the company, young entrepreneurs and leaders about don his values, his wisdom, wit, humbleness and his way of clear communication and how he would set priorities. it would just come to naturally to him. >> rose: one of the things he said, that success made him nervous because it scared him that there would be arrogance and complacency. >> that was his theme. and i heard that many, many times from him. stay nervous is what he told me frequently, and good advice.

a brand like coke, it's easy to ride on that or notre dame but he was always pushing for more. >> he brought the same discipline to tissue of the -- to the issue of the not for profit sector. in the '70s, he wanted to do something good for people and the the coca-cola company, but he was clever. he bought 100000 t-shirts for about $1.50 each and that summer every single local special olympics event over the united states, about 1,000 t-shirts were distributed and every single volunteer became an ambassador. he polished the brand 100,000 times a day those t-shirts were missed. he's message was we'll do more next year. you have to grow this thing. when i went to see him in my 30s looking for advice from him as so many did, his advice

is how do you grow this thing, bring it to china, india make a difference, talk to the folks in atlanta. he always said, don't take too much of their time, he said, just ask them for what they need and get the hell out of the way. i'm trying to follow that advice not always successful (laughter) >> rose: let's talk about new coke, he was part of that disaster. he said we're not so smart to have thought we were too perfect or too dumb not toe recognize the mistake. >> it's also having the courage to rather than watch things happen, take destiny into your hands and have the courage. he always used to say where there's no risk there niece reward. i always repeat that all the time. so, yes not everything that you do has to work, but making decisions and standing behind those decisions and being willing to admit that something is not working and go and

change, have the flexibility, perfect example of that. and the brand and the company got stronger and better as a result of all of that put together. that's why he would say to you, you know, we didn't do it on purpose. we're not as stupid or we're not as clever as all of that seems. and then he was exactly, you know, talking about how he felt. >> rose: warren, did he talk to you about that decision at the time? you were on the board by the way. >> i wasn't on the board at that time. >> rose: okay. in fact, none of us were there at that time. (laughter) >> rose: you don't know anybody who was there! >> i was out of communication. but the one thing he did tell me he was talking to me about it afterwards, and he said, when those letters started arriving at headquarters addressed to "supreme idiot" and they brought them to my desk i started to get the idea we'd lost a little something here. (laughter)

knee>> rose: here's don talking about that very decision with me at this table. here it is. >> our u.s. business has had some challenges. a new formulation was built. roberto had said, from the day we started he said everything's up for grabs every day. don't be afraid to bring anything in. so a group of our technicians and u.s. management developed what they thought was a formulation that was going to take over the world. now you know,, we sat there at the corporate headquarters or sort of isolating ourselves a little bit and saying maybe it would go away, but they kept doing more taste tests, which i covered in two or three commandments, they got a lot of outside experts and sooner or later these

tell violation nationwide, i think that night. >> the simple fact is that all of the time and money and skill poured into consumer research on the new coca-cola could not measure or reveal the depth and abiding emotional attachment to original coca-cola feltly so many people. they said they wanted the original taste of coca-cola back and they wanted it soon. >> i was based overseas at that time, but that night, it was first news on all three anchors, and he was there in person and talking about it to consumers, and that's the way to handle something like that.

the perfect example of how he would go out and handle something like that. you know, not everything has to work. stand behind your decisions and know when you've made a mistake and change it. >> rose: i was told a story that some woman called him up and got through to him and said how could you have destroyed coca-cola because it meant so much to me. he said, when was the last time you had coca-cola. she said, 20 years. he said why are you so concerned? she said because you're destroying my youth. he said that coke meant more to her than just the drink, it was memory. >> the people own the brand and taking it away from them, they found out how important that brand was to people. just like that woman who hadn't had one in 20 years. but don was in touch with people. they may have made a mistake there temporarily, but he could feel what people were feeling.

he didn't have to put it into words. he just had that ability to just connect with you in all ways. that book he wrote, i don't know whether you're going to get to that. >> rose: go ahead. well, we have a group that met every two years since 1968. we call graham group. actually, kaye and don graham were entered tom murphy and bill gates were in it, and every time we met the group wanted to hear don speak. so i kind of wanted to rotate things but they didn't want me to rotate things. they wanted to hear don. so he gave the key points in that as a talk one time and the crowd went wild. so we all suggested to them you have to put it in a book and he did and the world was better for it. >> rose: i repeat that now because herbert alan and i were talking about it. he said don combined the best

values of a great teacher and great listener. he always left with you wanting more. he had the unusual combination of needing to be needed but never needing to be recognized. i heard the speech at sun valley which became the basis for the book and the book was released in 2008 and was called the ten commandments for business failure. ten things you can do for business failure and they are quit taking risks being flexible, isolate yourself, assume infallibility play the game close to the foul line, don't take time to think, pull all your faith in experts, love your bureaucracy, send mixed messages and be a friend of the future. that summed him up did it not? >> that's 100%. it was such a great way to present it too, because everybody's got these ten rules for success, but he got -- i heard it in sun valley and with our group, i mean, he just had that way of presenting things

that grab you in the first minute and you would hope he wouldn't stop talking, it was so good. >> rose: he wrote a letter to you when your mother died. >> he did. he was of an era where there were great irish-americans, not just because they were irish, but because there was a certain sense of faith that underpinned their lives. don was tough raucous funny wise, took risks, but he had a deep faith. i think that's what connected him to my mother. whenever he would see her and she wasn't a touchy kind of person, he would always hold her hand. and i never forget it because no one did that. i mean my father didn't hold her hand. i mean, she wasn't that kind of girl, you know? >> rose: but don did. don did. he'd reach across and hold her hand and look at her in the eye and say, eunice... and there was an energetic connection there that i think he

knew that she brought something to him that was important to his life not a great huge university like notre dame and a powerful center for hiring education, but these little humble people she represented also meant something dear to him and she as their representative they formed a beautiful friendship. >> rose: here's what he said about notre dame vs. nebraska. role tape. what happened when they were playing the university of nebraska? >> well, i have to tell you the truth, i was kind of pulling for notre dame. >> rose: of course you were. (laughter) >> warren is one of the great fans of the university of nebraska. we've seen a couple of those games together and nebraska won both of them. (laughter) >> rose: so the two of you were there rooting for the opposite teams? >> charlie, i have to tell you,

don broadcast nebraska football at the very beginning of television when there was only one television station in omaha and they paid $25,000 for the rights, so he actually broadcast the game. he had a 15-minute program on the local tv station at the time. >> as part of the noon hour show, we have 15 minutes where we take a little coffee and meet a lot of interesting people. >> and he was followed by johnny carson who was just beginning his career. they lived in the statement apartment house. when i would see don 30 or 40 years later at a coke meeting, he would say whatever happened to the carson fellow? (laughter) >> rose: what were his passions other than coca-cola friendship and notre dame? >> that's a pretty good list right there. >> rose: and special olympics, too. >> his family and friends.

he for five years after he had oral cancer he made every single one of berkshire hathaway's directors' meetings, and after every one of them where eight or nine managers would present, every one of them would get an individualized note that meant something to them. i mean, he really was analyzing the business they were in where he might be helpful and these were not form letters. every single one of them would get a message that meant something to them specifically. and that went on year after year after year after year when he could not eat a meal or anything of the sort. he came and participated. just anything he did, he did 100%. >> rose: he was on the board until what? >> until a couple of years ago, and then he retired from the board and stayed on as adviser to the board until he passed away. you know, to warren's point

about the intellect that he put into the letter i kept every single letter that he has written to me over the last 30 years and there would be one letter that came from him always on st. patrick's day, but i obviously received many other letters and i put them all in a file and i kind of opened that file and read through that file, and i had to hold my breath because it is so current whatever was written 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, has incredible relevance and meaning today. and it's just -- they're just beautiful words put together by a deep, strong intellect and passion. >> rose: okay. here's picture with you muktar and don meeting the australian minister, this is 1992. you can see that picture in a

moment. >> yeah, that was the prime minister of austria for -- chancellor of austria for ten years from '86 to '96 and there we are opening our office for eastern and central and southern europe, and don visited us. i traveled with don a lot and met with a lot of dignitaries. as i said earlier, it was just a bond, like what tim said about the bond between eunice shriver and himself. the eyes would lock and there was a deep intellect humor wit, understanding, ability to listen to people and contribute. so whether it's the chancellor of austria, presidents all around they would just care about the person and remember

even if it was one meeting. >> rose: let me get a final word from each of you tim, as we remember and appreciate a friend. >> i think the great thing charlie about don is that where business is going today you see brands all over the world trying to find ways to embody big values to capture the power of delivering the product and the value proposition at the same time, about being something more something bigger and don knew that 40 years ago and created the world's most powerful brand because he linked it with deep value because what he brought to individuals, he brought to the company. there will be business leaders for the next 20 or 30 years who would do well to study what don keough believed deeply is the heart and soul of the business is as important as operation and efficiencies. >> rose: father jenkins. i build on what tim said. don, you look for a technique or

a trick he did. it was don. it was who he was the values he lived by and the way he connected with people as muktar said in a deep level, that gave him the power of being a great leader. it wasn't a gimmick. it was don. that's what he taught me. >> he was the most special person who came through my life and i will always remember him and love him for that and what he did to make everyone he touched a better person. >> rose: warren, final word. everybody loved him and they were 100% right. >> rose: for all of you who came this evening to appreciate don, thank you so much. for all who knew him all who knew of him and all who wished they had known him, for all those whose lives he touched, we remember him and our thoughts and sympathy are with his wife and daughters his sons, 18

grandchildren and two great grandchildren, a remarkable man who understood the power of friendship. we remember don keough tonight. >> rose: leon wieseltier is here, former literary editor of "the new republic," steered the magazines back through 30 years. he resigned last december due to managerial changes and since joined "the atlantic" as a contributing editor and critic. james bennett said for a generation of leaders and writers, leon defined standards for piercing criticism culture and society and joined the brookings institution. i am very very pleased to have him back at this table. i consider him a great friend and it is my honor to have his friendship. >> good to be here charlie. >> rose: so let's talk about israel first.

i just read a bbc account of an interview, i think probably with -- it was on msnbs andrea mitchell where he said -- >> yeah, it's time to take it back. >> rose: in the end he said, that's a good thing. i haven't read the interview but i read the bbc's account of it that they have to figure a way to get to a good two-state solution. >> first of ail, that's not what he said when he summoned the base before the election. he delegit mated the two-state solution which is about the most dangerous thing anybody can do in terms of prospect of peace and reconciliation. as soon as he won, i said to someone we're ten minutes away

from seeing whether he is for the two-state solution. i think he treats the subject with total cynicism and i think whether he is or isn't for the two-state solution whether the bbc is the real netanyahu whatever it is, he's done nothing in his policies to advance the prospects of the two-state solution. personally -- i mean, i don't like being played for a fool, and i don't know which -- what to believe when it comes to him. my own sense is that he is not capable of presiding over the establishment of the palestinian state which is one of the reason his baits supports him and i think that is -- >> rose: you don't think he's capable? >> i don't think he's capable -- i don't think abbas right now is capable of ebeing over a palestinian state either.

it worries me there's not a palestinian partner and netanyahu is squandering opportunity for a deal what worries me is when neither side wants a two-state solution israel is pursuing policies to make that solution even more difficult. >> rose: here's what he said in this interview, "i don't want a one-state solution. i want a sustainable peaceful two-state solution but for that circumstances have to change." he said i never changed my speech six years ago calling for a demilitarized palestinian state that recognized the jewish state. what changed is the reality. >> he's the prime minister of israel. he's in a position to change some of the circumstances he wish would change. it isn't going to be easy. i don't believe he's ever going to seriously cut back on the settlement program. i think the settlements are the most momentous blunder in

israel's history. i think the palestinian population that lives where it lives is going to continue to live where it lives and israel is going to have to live with it and these are israel's neighbors. whether israel likes it or not. anything that poisons or further poisons relations with the palestinian community is counterproductive to the interests of the state of israel. unless you believe that one state is tenable for the jews of israel, but one state will not be greater israel, it will be greater palestine. it will mark the end of the jewish state. >> rose: if there's one state, it will be greater palestine? >> it will be, for demographic reasons, not greater israel. anybody who cares about the survival of israel must support anything that could be done to bring about the two-state solution. i understand we've waited decades for it. there are problems in life we don't know the solution to and

decades go by and we bang our heads against the wall. this problem we've known the solution to for many decades, we just can't figure out a way to get there. >> rose: two things netanyahu made a point of. one he said a sticking point is abbas refused to recognize israel as a jewish state. this is an argument the prime minister made over the past three or four years but not before that. >> i don't remember the exact year netanyahu introduced this as another standard. >> rose: another negotiating tool. >> another obstacle that had to be introduced against progress in the so-called peace process. >> rose: what does he mean? he wants the palestinians to declare the legitimacy of israel as a jewish state. i do, too. i would have to say i would not hold the future of the jewish state or palestinian community to such a declaration because a street where where palestine agreed to live in peace with israel side by side -- >> rose: and not recognize israel as a jewish state? >> no, israel is a jewish state.

but again every time the argument goes back to the question of right, the discussion shuts down. the beauty of the partition idea of the territory idea of the two-state idea of the territories for peace idea is it suspends the arguments for rights because both people have the right to the same land. there is no such thing as having a right to half of something. so the only way to proceed and the an chen rabbis knew this when they wrote about torts, the only way to proceed is to divide it. we can argue about the kind of division and the terms of the division and so on, but the prince the of the division has the essential condition for an end to the conflict seems to me indisputable. >> rose: do you believe it's possible for palestinians and israelis to live side by side in peace or do you believe that it is possible for there to be circumstances that can get beyond their inability to live side by side in peace?

>> there is no question in my mind that if and when a deal is made between israel and palestine there will be radical palestinians, militants who will turn to violence. >> rose: right. ight? when the good friday agreement was made in ireland and finally that miracle was wrought you may recall when the i.r.a. decided to negotiate there appeared an organization called the real i.r.a. the real i.r.a. became a security problem not a political or strategic problem, because the communities had agreed to reconcile. so, yes there will be a problem of violence. the prestige of religious violence in the muslim world right now is unfortunately very high and there are currents in the muslim world all around israel right now that are deeply violent, and this is something that israel has to live with now and had to live with then. but the basic principle that the

two communities for reasons of self-interest but also for moral reasons, have to reconcile and finally put an end to this conflict seems, as i say, indisputable to me. i don't think it's going to happen now and may not happen in my lifetime snoo that's the opinion of the majority of israeli citizens? >> i don't know. i think it depends how you ask the question. >> rose: out of fear what he was able to do is make the argument israel is most secure with me? >> israel's security policy right now as far as i can tell consists in a wall and war every two or three years. you know, the wall works, but it's not the best symbol of what we want and the wars we know about the problem with these wars. i think that netanyahu won this election ugly. he won it ugly. he debased his country with some of his rhetoric, especially with what he said about the arab

citizens. >> rose: so should the israeli government demand that the palestinian authority not deal with hamas and not make a coalition with hamas? >> i think the israeli government -- >> rose: or did they say, you know, you've got these terrible elements there and it's up to you to control them if you want to present yourself as they view the hamas? >> i think that the problem of hamas is something that the p.a. and now the egyptians together have got to find a solution to. i don't think israel should deal with hamas even though there were informal contacts and things. >> rose: you don't? no, i don't. i think there are limits. no, i don't. i think that an organization that regularly -- there's no indication on the side of hamas

that they're prepared to deal with their enemy. if there's some evidence sure butten i don't see the evidence. the palestinian community insofar as i understand it but i don't speaker ray bick it's a very troubled community politically. it's divided. there is a lot of violence. they have a lot of in-house business to take care of which is one of the reasons i don't expect there to be a deal in the short term. my main tern is that in -- my main concern is in the absence of a deal the situation with israel and the palestinians not get further poisoned and the kind of rhetoric netanyahu used to clinch this election, it's not going to be forgotten. he may take it back, but -- >> rose: jeffery goldberg was here last night to talk about the election and i said did

netanyahu win or herzog lose? did herzog present an argument to create a resonance with the israeli people that would make a difference? did he make a case for the two-state resolution and that he had a case for security? >> i think they did as good as they can and better than they have in a long time. >> rose: i think they principally appealed to economic issues. >> they did that, that's right. >> rose: they did not make the case on the security. >> well, they talked about it but it was clear in the election that -- in the campaign that more israelis cared about domestic issues, about issues of social justice and economic -- >> rose: then why did netanyahu prevail? >> because netanyahu's base, there was also bennett's parties and other parties, and the reason bennett didn't do as well is he summoned back some of the

zealots and when they heard some of the things he was saying i'm not surprised they decided to vote for him. >> rose: the obama administration says netanyahu's proposals will get nowhere and all he will be left with are military org's. >> i'm not even sure there will be a military option. i don't believe the obama deal will get us anywhere either. i think when netanyahu said a deal that was conditional upon a recognition of the nature of the iranian regime's foreign policy as far as support of terrorism and so on is the only kind of deal there should be, i'm actually quite sympathetic to that. >> rose: sympathetic to -- to what he said in congress about linking the deal to some recognition of what sort of regime there is in tehran. i mean, the obama administration frequently seems to forget that this is a tyrannical theocratic criminal regime. there is no reason whatsoever to trust it on this question. there is no evidence whatsoever that the iranians have made any

strategic decision to renounce a nuclear capability. you know, the deal that's now being discussed consists in a diminishment of the iranian capability for a period of ten years and the obama administration sometimes talks about it in the tones of a grand bargain so that iran will then become a flourishing regional power. who on earth wants this regime to become a flourishing regional power? anybody who does anything to legit mate or prop up the regime in tehran is an enemy of iran is an enemy of iran and the only solution that will eventually be, its clock whose ticking slower than the nuclear clock, is an rival of an accountable government. >> rose: when?

the streets of iran erupted with a democratic rebellion and the united states basically turned its back on them. shaper shouting obama's name. i understand that the nuclear clock is ticking more quickly than the democracy clock in iran. >> rose: but it is a question, some would argue everybody that i know believes that an essential ten net of any agreement has to be inspections because the likelihood of a nuclear capacity from iran will probably come not from a count of centrifuges but covertly. >> the problem is there were inspections and we were twice surprised. they lie. i think that -- they lie. and i think that the obvious objective of the iranian regime in these nuclear negotiations is relief from sanctions and they are prepared it seems if they

are prepared, but the most they seem prepared to do is to restrain their nuclear capabilities for a limited period of time so as to get relief from the sanctions. that seems to be their strategic objective, and the only reason they're there is because of the sanctions, as far as i can tell. >> rose: the only reason they've come to the table. >> yeah. >> rose: let me turn back to israel. what else it that you study the most? what is it about israel and it's history that you love the most? what is it that makes israel and different groups in israel honor you so? >> israel is a genuinely loveable and admirable place in many ways. one of the reasons i was so disgusted by some of the things netanyahu said at the end of the campaign is that they paint a picture of a country that is much nastier and ologier than the -- and uglier than the

country of israel in fact is. israel has a somewhat dysfunctional political system. israel, however is a genuine democracy. israel may commit human rights violations but has scores of its own human rights groups holding it to account. israel is a society that is bursting -- bursting with spirit, culture and life. israel is a genuinely admirable place in many ways but israel is being tested because it has this problem. >> rose: that it can't deal with the palestinians. >> yeah. look, you know a democracy is tested -- democracies are tested by many things. israel has a free press. israel has a wildly independent judiciary. israel has a wildly free political system. israel is not doing so well by one of the orthotests of a democracy which is national

democracy which is how it treats its minorities. >> rose: my question was broader than that, not just contemporary israel, what you love about it. it is about israel and its cultural tradition and religious tradition. i mean you are receiving a huge prize for your writings and comprehension and eloquent testimony to that part of the heritage of israel. >> the story of the jewish people is one of the great human stories, and its moral and emotional force is much greater than anything ethnic or religious. and one of the great moments in that human story was that, in the aftermath, on the day after the jewish people suffered the

most unimaginably horrific destruction possible, the jewish revived itself in a national sovereign state, and in a more moving way and this happened before the destruction of israel, the jewish people invented a whole new language for itself. the story of modern hebrew is one of the most stirring cultural stories i've ever heard, and it is one of my great complaints against american jewery who are virtually unlettered in hebrew is they deny themselves the greatest tradition because of their ill literacy. as a jew i live mostly in hebrew because we have a language and that's the air and culture a people breathes. i read and speak and write in hebrew. i'm stirred by this.

the spiritual, literary culture resources of this language and more generally of the jewish story seem immeasurable to me. so i've always regarded it as a great honor who have been born a jew. it was an accident of birth. i'm jealous of converts because they made a decision. i didn't have to make a decision. it was an accident of birth but i've always regarded it as a very lucky accident of birth. of course, all accidents of birth, you have to embeau them with an inner necessity, you have to come to possess them. not everything that is given is received and it isn't received until you agree to receive it. but for all these reasons it has been one of the great measures of my -- great pleasures of my life. not just one of the great solemn intellectual obligations to a-- to equip myself well when it comes to my people. >> rose: this is part one of two with leon.

when we come back later on another day we'll talk about the new republic where he spent 30 years of his life. it is not part of his life now except in memory and we will talk about where he goes from here. that's part two of conversation with leon wieseltier. for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: the coca cola company supporting this program since 2002. >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

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