rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with jim o'neill, a form goldman sachs executive in london who is now launching a world wide campaign to explain to the world about the relationship between microbes and antibiotics. >> with antibiotics, and this is why they kind of need people like myself to help solve the problem, it's the opposite, that we don't want them to sell much of something because that causes the resistance problem, and we want it to be affordable as as many people as possible especially in the emerging world. so if that's the conditions thrown against the former world then well i'm not interested in producing any. >> that's sort of the supply problem. and then separately, linked to what i said a minute ago there's a huge demand problem where in

our generation, we kind of learned and currently to to think there's a solution to the slightest it's a sore throat or ear infection, and even if we don't know what is wrong with us, give us an antibiotics. >> and we conclude with two weeks about richard nixon one by tim weiner, "being nixon: a man divided" and evan thomas' book is called "being nixon: a man divided." >> what we call watergate was not an event that took place 42 years ago tomorrow. it wasn't just the break in at the democratic national committee headquarters. 'twas a series of what john mitchell, attorney general, and campaign manager called the white house horrors and these included breaking into the psychiatrist'sice of daniel elzburg who had released the pentagon papers, spying on teddy kennedy's support, spying on

senator ed musky, putting spies in the enemy's camp, stealing people's papers. >> nixon was a genius as a politiciannd long before ronald reagan created the modern republican party nixon created the republican party by appeal to go to disaffected. >> funding for charlie rose is funded by american express. additional funding provided by ... >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> rose: tim weiner is here, dpormer chief economist and head of asset management at goldman sachs. he has not slowed down since retiring from wall street in 2013. last year he was asked to lead a review open how to combat drug resist apt super bugs. had he was appointed to the treasury by george osborne tasked with boosting economy in northern england. welcome back. >> thank you. first goldman sachs and leaving goldman sachs why was that the right time? >> i don't know if it was but i -- follow many years had thought there was always a time when you have to leave a place as competative as gold man. i had seen a number of people leave -- stayed too long. >> yes. stayed too long and didn't know how to cope with life that easily when they left so i kind of always told myself i would

rather -- i would certainly rather leaf before the best time than after the best time and you don't know when that is but i thought i'm going to take the risk when it feels to me there's things that i'm wanting to explore and swear i'm not comfortable with pursuing the same path and i always had this thought in my mind partly because i had a number of years in my career before i joined goldman, i always thought i want to do something else other than being goldman sachs. i didn't flow in gas it right time. it felt it was as good as it was. i love the place dearly and i have fond memories. i i saw a couple of foolel people from there over the weekend at a party as it happens. i don't think about it: it i'm pretty happy i left when i did. >> rose: give you a chance to offer the world definitions like

brick. it d14 yearnearly since i first froze up and it was a great ep abler for many things that happened to me since. >> rose: what is the magic of goldman? let's take them at their best with whatever distractions or faults there might be. at best, as an institution, it is what? >> i think it's pretty simple. it is pretty genuinely melicrati nobody in terms of bringing me on board and i joined back in the day when it was a true partnership, and quite a rare thing. i was maybe the fifth person that happened to so itas quite a big step for them to do. nobody was interested in my background, how i spoke where i came from, what university i had been to anything like that, which as a british person is quite a by the weird and people would really focus on whether you could contribute to the success of the firm and, of

course as clnts and that part of it is the absolute best. >> what are you doing in government? what is this job? >> five weeks ago i had n idea it was going to happen. it sort of goes back to -- soon after i left i dylanly left having no idea what i was going to do. i also thought on the advice of some people i had also seen leave separately and other walks of life it's better to give yourself a bit of time to bereave when you haven't been somewhere in a long time. you don't know how your that he going to think. and i is sort of the developed this mantra that whatever it was, if it couldn't be better it had to be different and in some ways it was sort of sming device to enable me to say no to lot of conventional -- certainly anything i decided how could it be better than anything else so i don't want to do that and i didn't really what about to be to go on the boards of any public companies and very well people asked me to do that and i

kind of -- you know, why do i want to do that? so the first thick i did was actually a bbc radio documentary about the so-called mint country and i traveled down to mexico and know gea and to fund the great program. when in the came to anend i was asked if i would be interested in leading review into the challenge of getting more economic growth nur ban btain. the uk has become seemingly gone on for decades, an economy that is so dominated by london and it's quite quite rare to the degree that is the case in the developed world. and of course coming from the north of england myself, is something that i have a lot of historical passion about. and that certainly qualified the different and i thoroughly

enjoyed it and because it was just a year and it was something i didn't really know and also because i thought, well, to really make a different i have pretty dramatic ideas and we -- the theory of conglomeration came about it and in man chester where i'm friend and therere three others, and i caught it simply by focusing on acronym, and man-chefleeds-pol which doesn't roll-off the tongue and that's what the chancellor did adopted a number of our ideas and said he wanted to implement this as policy. fast forward 18 months later after the commission had finished, election result comes out, government elected and i got a call from the chancellor, i don't want to offer you a job

for your powerhouse and i'm like, wow, i said, well, i'm beyond wow, i can't really do that because i'm leading this review into antimicrobial resistance. and this is what i would love to talk to you about because it's so important and there's a symmetry about it because when i first got involved to lead the resistance of antimicrobial resistance, i said i'm not going to not to the commission stuff because there's indictment and he we there we're influencing your colleagues so i will do it if you wait until the end. and yet fast forward a year later and it same thing happens in reverse. so i have some references about becoming a memberf the house of lords. it was something i would have never dreamed. >> rose: you were lord -- >> i'm lord o'neill of gatly which is the part of manchester that i originate from. and even with the idea that i would end up and life is just

remarkable. >> rose: i'm really interested in science so for that reason i'm happy to hear you talk about that. and before i leave it, withen you look at the global economy today, every time ill pick up something i get a country point of view. there seems to be nor consensus as to where we are. we don't quite know how much china is slowing down. we know that the best economy in europe in terms of growth is britain. >> certainly has been the case. we know that the u.s. is recovering but we see issues here. >> i think you know we're so of going -- i'm still typically been for many years in the optimistic count not quite as optimistic to everybody else as i often have been partly because of some of the the challenges challenges and obviously brazil in particular but i think we're making two steps forward and one and a half back but i think -- you know i think what a lot of

people tend to underestimate, if you think of it in terms of what are we now six years plus on from the crises steps the u.s. and china had to come out of that mess different places than they were before the mess and you can't to that overnight. in some ways i think both the u.s. and china which are the two most important economies in the world prosecute actually structurally adjusting more than people realize. you know i was raised on the notion that the u.s. could never have domestic -- without having this account deficit because the u.s. didn't know how to expt. but here eare, deficit less than 3 persian of gdp and so given where the u.s. has come from that's a pretty decent condition to be in. flip side of that china chine as slowed down but it's gone down to less than three which the world -- >> it's in the process of trying

to create domestic demand. >> and i think it's having reasonable success. >> i think both of those places areaving to adapt to these new kind of ways of driving themselves so you can't do that overnight but i think they're doing pretty well. hots of challenges in some parts of themiles per houring world particularly those are the are going to be vulnerable to financing as the fed starts to raise rates and of course the number of challenges in some europe peep places, japan seem to never get out of the way but i think by in large the world is doing ok. >> greece what is going to happen and what are the consequence of the scenario. >> you know i often -- are -- when i see the a. focus on greece i say thank god i'm not in myld life. first of all, it's a game of chicken it seems to me. there's a loft games saving going on. i have assumed all along that is typically european style at some

last moment there will be some kind of deal. obviousry right now as we're chatting that seems pretty outrageous thing to say but second thing i would say is most importantly a lot of the other peripheral economies have changed quite a bit as well since greece crises first started. and, of course, a lot of the debt is not owned by the private sector so of the whole contagion issue seems to be much less of a risk than before. even if greece chooses to play hardball and the europeans say we're not giving you anything else and the inevitable happens, the best way -- i don't watch too closely but china creates another greece everyour months, and they're probably creating another greece every three moos these days. if i were manufacturing my stuff i would say don't spend so much time thinking about it. >> as you know i'm going to

russia next week to talk to the president of russia and others. where do you think their economy stands? with its energy dependence. >> i think you're going to -- i will never forget back in '08 they asked me to do a special thing about where russia will be as brick by 2020. >> was it far in brick and what it would be like in 2000 tone. >> and i haven't been fully briefed as to what they expected me to say and i pointed out to them that it was pretty unlikely to that oils spend the next 12 years doing what they had done the previous eight and you put that -- right, you put the inevitable of oil prices start to reverse, and they're aging demographics and it was pretty fleivel russia would see slower growth than it had done and they were not overly pleased.

what was more interesting they were particularly unpleased about the kind of media coverage what i had said. put it was interesting because kind of half suspected that some part of the russian camp, particularly the economic thing wanted me to say that to try to engineer some kind of change in economic policy but i think ignoring the political issues are that are so prevalent the core problem is that they're just so dependent on commodityism. irrelevant of the ukraine mess they need to do much more substantial things to stop that dependency. >> what is a microbe. so we all have these things inside of us that evolve and allow us to have natural healing processes. and as we creep through time, some of them become resistant and some of them don't.

and part will have because of our introduction -- >> to what? to disease. >> resistance to diseases and infections. and importantly, resistant to antibiotics that we get prescribed or in many cases in our generation where we just demand what we given them because we think they're this magical solution that goes with penicillin and the problem that we have is that the economics for the farmer industry are such that there's not been any new antibiotics created for about 30 years. so. >> just explain that economics which is you only make money on -- >> like any big company they want to sell as much as possible for something that is as high a price as they can get. with antibiotics and this is why they kind of need someone like myself to help solve of the problem is the opposite, that we don't want them to sell much much something because that

causes the resistance problem and we want it to be affordable to as many as possible especially in the emerging world. so if that's the conditions thrown against the former world well then i'm not interested in produce producing any. that's sort of the core of the supply problem. and then desperately, linked to what i said a minute ago s there's a huge tee manned problem, where in our generation we have kind of learned and currently to think that there's aolution to the slightest thing, whether it's a sorry throat, to ear infection or even though -- give me an antibiotic an of course in hospitals, there's the growth -- >> and then very importantly in the emerging world i this very crucial end supply with up fix diseases like tb, aids, where

the great strides that have been found in the past xism decade, they require antibiotics to help ease the eatment and if we have more and more resist appearance to all of challenges then we're not going to be able to keep up with them and any progress that we made and might go into reverse. so we showed in the first paper soon after we started as a review, there's -- if we carry on the path we're going down by 2050, it's going to be 10 milon people around the world a year dying. 10 million. you think of the -- >> rose: that's the population of seven or 8 million. >> billion. >> you think of -- as scary and has as horrible as ebola has been, 20,000. today -- >>0,000 versus 8 did you say? >> 10 million. >> today, the data is very difficult to get it. our best guess is about 700,000

people a year are dying of this 25,000 in the u.s. alone. and then in addition, to emphasize the point, economic growth driven by products overseas and the number of people at work and together with those number of deaths, by -- i deliberately chose 2050 because parallel with the whole brick story, not least because the brick countries won't reach e dream if you don't solve this to problem, you could lose a cumulative $100 trillion. the world economy today is 75 trillion. in we didn't have this the world could more than double. >> a hundred trillion. >> probably more. but as the problem gross and gross we will lose that cumulative gdp. >> because because? >> because we have less people in the workforce and some martz

already -- india we had a story from one of the african ambassador to the un last night at their dinner. and the child dheths because of resist toons antibiotics already are very, very high and the number of people that enter the workforce will be significtly less and that would be the case and of course productivity will be greatly impaired. common treatments in the developed world that we all take for granted, so hip replacement knee replacement, cesarean birth, we have will not be able to do in 20 odd years. >> couple of things. why you? >> that's a very good yes. that's what i asked. when they called me up i didn't even know what it was and i struggled for a couple of weeks. antimicrobial. the answer was that -- a lady

called that deserve a lot of credit. the chief medical officer of the uk. she persuaded the prime minister, a lot of scientist know all of this stuff but they're so stuck in the detail and the woods but because of the bureaucracy they can't see the big picture. and she said we need an economist to basically turn into this an economic problem so it's going to get solved. as i joke about, we kind of 20 through the roll tex and they stopped at me after they found other people. >> rose: that's not true. but is there something related to your core competency and your capacity to see the big pirchght? you know the details but you can see, as they might see you don't lose site of the forest because you're in the trees. >> i would like to think that was the case. i think the whole brick story kind of give us some evidence that -- i think about one of the big issues that really matter and what i have learned not just in that instance, also the

northern powerhouse but many other things 24 hive, it is the simple issues that really matter so you have got to keep your mind focused on where the trend of all of these things is going, are going. and frankly, loop of the detail i'm not -- first of all i'm not technically competent special on scientific issues and i'm not necessarily that interested because you have to deal with the big issues and find the ght solutions for the big issues. so i think my expertise is probably far too strong of a word. my capabilities in the area is probably what hey tracted them to me. >> so your man date is to -- >> my mandate is ridiculously ambitious. it's to have by september 2016 which is why i'm no new york the past two days, to start the process, but to have a un agreement that everybody signs usup to and we put this behind us so we don't have anything like the deaths. is this like the millennium

project or like that. >> it has that kind of importance. interestinglit's not featured in all of these remarkable sustainable goals that the u -- i'm pleased with that. but i'm trying find the gig things that matter. i wrote a piece noart english times about it, 10 things to cure the. >> okay. number one embark on massive global pr exercise. >> yes. >> speaks for its sesm. tell the people the problem and what has to be done. >> especially with the power of some of these technical apps and the generation below again it was talking to some of these -- i got interviewed, the very first thing by the state channel ct. she said our generation in china we are eager to give you time to get this correct. so i chatted with her overtime. and they have something

called -- reachut the cheese version of whatsapp. so you need a whatsapp campaign in china, you know a bollywood vie campaign in india to use things like that in african-american, to influence the things that really captured your imagination of the next generation of people to help demand of our policy makers, we want to be affected. and help us control ourselves. >> we a going to write a big paper about this, an important paper after all of this. >> and it could help with about $19 billion. >> wash our hands more. >> so one of the basic things is, if we just washed our hands a lot more of us human beings when we go to the bathroom it reduces the likelihood that we

will pick up infection. >> stop using antibiotics for animal growth promoters. >> so this is a really big area here in the united states. quite interesting when you look at the topic. relative to the u.s. the u.s. is normally on s many things way ahead of europe. and it's not true all over europe but particularly in the scandinavian country, the uk is pretty good as think. we basically made it activity to use antibiotics as growth stimulant for animals in food. in the u.s. a good 60% of consumption is high, maybe close to 80 percent, is for simulating animal growth and it's a big issue in china and india and other parts of the world. >> from it you get some of the -- there's no agreement --

so the u.s. -- >> there's no agreement own the facts. >> well put it like this. there seems to be a lot of powerful voices that try to create doubts. >> tweerdz the end of this week i'm going to spend a cull of days in d.c. let the record reflect about the views. because is is a key key issue. >> and your conviction is europe is often the right track. >> i think that europe in this particular sphere of life is better than the u.s. very important but link -- a lot of these things link together. it may well be the younger generation play a big role in change the mindset of the food production kepts. a powerful aning dote that caught our attention two months ago is mostly cloudy mcdonald's, such a powerful

brand, consumer goods economy maybe should an announcement, they were going to stop using chickens that had been given antibiotics. and it seems to me, i don't know the reason but it seems to be the main influence of them making that decision is that the small rapidly growing new companies that are playing an better environmental issues and better quality of got and that what they going to eat. those are the kind of is things that are powerful in helping get this problem corrected. because indirectly a lot of the pressure for this fast paced owth of animals is coming glorth number four, explore the scope for using vaccines. that speaks for itself. >> yes. >> number five improve the

surveillance of resistance? >> so one of the remarkable -- i call this one of the five no brainers. one of the things that we found so alarmi when we first tried to show the global impasse if we don't deal with it is actually it's pre pretty hard, including in advanced committees 20 have goodational wide data as to what is the tree rezit sift ans. so we need to build in better surveillance systems in this take and age of technology should be realliably straightforward. very proud to say in this regard thanked the uk authorities when they saw this report announced throughout international aid program that goes on through the company called difid to kick off 195 million pounds to finance to countries around the world th benefit from the program is the beginning of that but we need more. >> state of the art diagnostics. >> it's my favorite one. i said it earlier we have a supply problem and demand problem and this day and age

where apples -- i call it sometimes google for dots there should be some sort. where these guys influence so much of lives and yet we go in to visit of the doctor and say we have a sore throat and the guy basically guesses as t whether or not you need an anti-with bottommic or not. >> we also known the -- in they are experimenting with something called throat strep where within two minutes of taking a swab you can tell whether you need it pour not. >> and you can reduce the anybody of people that go to the doctor by 70 porous. >> the problem with him is too -- >> another one of the no rainers. so few people stood in everyone. >> global innovation found.

that's another economic. >> the controversial party of that, we believe that the pharmaceutical industry should collectively sign on to our innovation found. >> you already mentioned chine's g28 next year and then have wig new drug which is overcoming, supply side. you have either got to buy the bullet and effectively give them subsidies or effective -- which is very complex. we will happily produce more. but if we were just trying to solve the problem in the u.s. maybe you could do that. but how can you do that in the emerging world where many people cannot get access to antibiotics today at the prices they are available. never mind if you allow them to rise sharply f you're in a world where the demand was much lower perhap

>> thank you for coming, good luck! thank you for having me. >> jim o'neill, back in moment. stay with us. >> 42 years after the watergate scandal the fascination with richard nixon continues. he was self made man who rose to occupy the most powerful 0 position n. the world. to this day he remains the only one of america's 44 presidents to resign. two new biographers explore his complex character. thankry called one man guest the world, the tragedy of richard nixon by tim weiner and "being nixon: a man divided," by evan thomas, and i'm pleased to have both of them at this table. so the same question for both of you. i begin with you. why 96 on. >> other than what i just said, a fashion that nateing character thaty all some some emotion to. >> for me i had a eureka moment. i was at the presidential library in california two and a half years ago talking about 96

on's relationship with j. edgar hoover. after this, the archivist that rowns the library came up and said list we know how you work, doe classify documents right? by the end of trawnd 14nd all much the documents and there was a quart of bob halder man's secret diary nixon's chief of staff, that had never been released. by the end of 200014, everything will be out. i said i'm going to write that book. and they said at the end of the conversation everyone will have to rewrite the history when this stuff comes out. >> so why did they say that. >> i think of nixon's five years in office. a shakespearean tragedy. this material, the tapes and the documents are the fourth act

where the compling goes mad before he falls. >> and you sir having written about some character figures. itch v. worked for past -- i was of the enemy. >> through richard nixon. nixon was always get rid of the harvard guys get rid of him. ill saw him as a lot of more thans, as a cartoon figure and i knew it had to be more indicated, i wanted to switch sides to explain what was it like to actually be richard 96 on, there is -- there's a mother lode of documents and tapes. there are 3,000 hours of richard nixon talking extemporaneously in a very unsensorred way amongst his friends. his chief of staff h.r. holder man has not only famous dire release but also daily notes

sitting there and taking down every what he the of what he says so there's a fantastic paper trail that allows you to get into the head of richard membership mixing on. >> so you find a man divided. >> i do. >> between good and bad or dark and light. >> we think of of nixon as being dark and bad. nixon did have hard side but late at night he would take his yellow bad and he would write notes to himself, how he wanted to be joyful, inspiring, confident -- those are not words that you normally associate with richard nixon. >> he was constantly self intro speculative. >> i think he was fighting the dark side. it was ultimate but he tried, much more than we realize he tried to be a confident person. there's an oral history that

julie did and when richard nixon came hope at night he would while as he came to the dorr, he would turn out all of the lights and you know they had dinner. it was all upbeat positive talk. he was fighting against the dark all the time. late at night if he had a drink maybe theness would come back. >> this is amateur school or -- to well all biographers are dimmure psychologists, but, no, this is -- this is based on what the guy was saying and thinking and doing. presidents leave an incredible paper trail. i have done a lot of these books and i have never gotten as cse to my subjects asen. >> you read his book. yes. >> what did you learn about him,

because you knew the man i think whatever she has it's from my i see it as political genius. the man achieved the greatest political come back, the greatest come back since lazarus when he woken election in 1968. >> and not a natural politician. >> not back slapper, toolly awkward. and i found a key and a letter no other man -- that martin luther king wrote to a friend in 1958 after he met nixon. martin luther king said, nixon is a genius as gwening you that he is sincere. if he is not sinner sear he is the most dangerous man in america. this is where we divide in our

books. i see genius who had a grand strategy for world peace and i also see a man who is fighting two wars. he fought the vietnam war on two friends, in southeast asia and at home. over there he is b-52 bombers. over here heave used bugs, break-ins, black bag jobs, political espionage to destroy his enemies. the domestic enemies the press. among them, nixon said to kissinger, the press is the enemy, the establishment is the enemy, the professors are the enemy, write that on the blackboard a hundred times and never forget it. >> nixon could be a below hard. he would below off seem like that and he -- he hated the press. that's absolutely true. but a certain amount of in addition on on these tapes is

next on just showing off being these macho guy that he wasn't really -- you know all of the profanity that people get upset about. nixon was bad about swearing. lbj was different. nirvetion on was triebt something that he wasn't. about watergate and the thing that grabbed me ani have this dark view of watergate watergate was less a machiavellian plot to disrupt american civil rights than it was a screw up. nixon didn't -- >> >> did you have any word -- >> nixon didn't know about the break n nixon's problem in watergate was that he could not confront his own subordinates. he was too shy. it wasn't that he is was this master schemer he was too shy to go to john mitchell who so

attorney general and campaign manager. how could you bring your self to do that? he should have wrought a tough lawyer in and he didn't get everybody in one room. >> but what we call watergate wasn't an event that took place 42 years ago tomorrow. it wasn't just the break in at the democratic national committee headquarters. headquarters. it was a series of chat john mitchell, attorney general and campaign manager called the white house horrors and the included breaking in to the psychiatrists office of daniels berg who revealed the pent papers, spying on senator ed musky. butting spies in the enemy's camp. stealing andpeople's papers. and when j. edgar hoover said

i'm not going to do this anymore. he said no more. no more bad -- that's when he said up the group called th plumbers. but crow gordon libby, ex c.i.a. ex fbi guys. and the plumbers, they were there to stop the leaks. leaks torement every president but none more than nixon. >> it seems to me that he, in what i read, was a man who felt agrievant and heelt like those people had an advantage, you know, the kennedys thought they had something. and at every stage, he said they did it to me, i'm going to do it to them. what the system had dupe to him he felt almost justification to do whatever he wanted to do. that's true. and well he did have -- nixon

was not the first person to abuse the irs. he abused the irs a lot but he was not the first. and nixon -- your' right initiation on had this view of the kennedys that they were better at dirty tricks than he was. he kept saying why can't we to it as well as they to it now he exaggerated how good kennedys were at dirty tricks. but they weren't bad -- i wrote a biography of bobby kennedy. and bobby kennedy -- >> including martin luther king. >> yes. and bobby kennedy ran very sophisticated political dirty tricks that were almost a model for richard nixon so he thought thieves catching up to the joneses and they were persecuted them. and we always about talk nixon being paranoid and all of that. >> even paranoid have their

limit. >> that's a medically he wasn't but he had paranoid instinct. >> go ahead. >> seven exactly right. richard nixon loses to j.f.k. in 1960 by this much. and it could have gone either way. >> west virginia committee. >> chicago and texas where lbj came from. and we could have had bush v. gore if nixon had decided -- and he contemplated it challenging the results of the presidential election. he is determined not only is he going to win i68 and he went to extraordinary limits including sabotaging the peace talks. but he was determin to win in 1972 by the latest landslide the roots of watergate. >> at any cost you would think though that all of this was

unnecessary, we had a week opponent running against him, he was coming off of some power things in his administration that's not the time to be paranoid. >> he had this idea of the new american majority that he was going to- to change the politics. >> change the application. he was going to take democratic centrist. done connolly, second of the treasurely, something that doesn't existnymore a southern conservative democrat he wanted him took successor and he wanted to create a new party a new majority. nixon was a jean with us i couldn't say as a politician and long before ronald reagan created the modern republican party nixon created the modern republican party by peeling about democrats and peeling away of the silent majority. >> but on civil rights he knew where the courts were going and that differentiate thyme he said

we're going to desegregate is now. he did it. there we going to be rye ots finds, he created these in every state, brought them in and said he would bring these people into the oval office and say here is where the tough decisions get made and you have to make a decision and every one of those commissions agreed to go along with intelligence graismghts when richard nixon came into office only 9 percent of black countryside went to integrated schools. two years laterpercent went to integrated schools. he that without rye ots and without trouble. this is richard nixon being practical and clever. george schultz ran this operation. and schultz is is a very clever guy, he put in arm active action. initiation on under the -- he

said, you know, these black kids are never going to get the pally high or the wittier college unless he help them. and nixon was -- this is a very important point. this on was an outsider and he derstood what it was like to be an outsider so he said terrible things about blocks. but on another level he understood that they were outsiders thank the needed hope and he did help them. >> do we look at them and safe this is a very, very so bright guy. also a man who committed political suicide, who made so many disastrous, self destructive decisions that he brought himself down liengt shakespearean king in the fifth act. >> that is, what a personality flaw, a.

>> value flaw. >> he said himself the day he resigned. he said others may hate you but don't let yourself hate them because then you destroy yourself and that's what richard nixon did. through hate, through fear, through a disasters russ series of decisions about the vietnam war which ended not with ending the vietnam war as if we all shook expndz had a walked away but with disgraceful retreat and disastrous american defeat. richard nixon was the first american got lose had a war like that. saigon fell shortly after he did as a convince of the defiance

>> rose: -- >> he didn't start it. he inherited a horrible war with half million american soldiers in combat and he vowed and he promised the american people that he would end it. that he would give us peace with honor. he did not. peace with honor was a deception. war went on and on and on. >> talk about two relationships nix hon and kissinger? >> tortured, shakespearean unfun to write about. think about this. foreign hey fair advisor is heise close effort advisor. >> he was pretty good as playing nixon, or fawning sometimes but at the same time henry kissinger's going out to -- my old boss and he is having some fun with the president. he is making jokes about this

drinking habits and kissinger is so crming he is self deprecating that mrs. gram and her people -- >> he tolerated it because he thought would be an agent of mind to change history. >> he tolerated for a number of reasons. what he said is, henry needs this. he needs to be this way. so he tried to be philosophical by it, you know? nixon would say here goes rentalry. and i think it did hurt his feelings and you sort of had to bare it and he got a lot out of kiss general. nixon was the id guy. it wasn't kissinger. going to china that was richard

nixon's idea. when oiks open herd nixon was thinking of going to china, he said nice plant. but now next on, the guy calling the shots was richard nixon. true that kissinger was the great strategytician and what was that strategy? why did nixon go tohina? why did nixon because the first president to set foot in the -- was it an attempt to bring the end of the war -- he thought that he could convince chairman mao and prime minister zhaou and the communist leader brezhnev to

be nice, to be our friends. he was making toasts with the people in an absolutely futile attempt to bring war to an end. >> 3w50 l. he came away with communiques, shanghai communique from china ais a meaningless document where they say we said this and we say we think that. the arm control agreements. saltgreements from 1972, jim schlesinger who was nixon's secretary. >> and also the head of the talk energy that -- 1972, we produced more nuclear war reds than in history. china and russia today are not

our friends. heid not bring us together in his slogan of 1968. he for us apart. >> and chieng', he has linkage, that was part of the motive and he wrote about it in 1967. he wrote in foreign affairs china cannot be left outside of the community of nations. he wanted to bring china in and make them a part never. that was an incredibly bold move and he knew only he could pull it off. on rigs athat arms control treaty was to -- but for an more than president to go to smoi and deal with the russians and deétente, that was in the long run a good thing for the united states. it slowed down the cold war. >> but i understood, after listening to these many hundreds of hours of types and reading through the declassified diaries

of bob haltman which came out six months ago is that nixon knew befor was sworn in for his second term that he was going down. >> he knew he was going down before he was sworn in. >> before he was sworn in for the second term. knee knew of the coverage of the watergate break in went all what toy john ritual and his tough as nails aid had been a -- and he knew just a few months later that he should probably resign n may of 1973, 15 months before he resigns in the midnight rumbling exhausted drunk, telephone call on tape. and he says, wouldn't it be beer to just check out now resign now? because i can't fight the damn

battle alone. i have had it. but he there to fight it alone and he fought the battle 15 more months before he finally stepped down. >> >> only nixon could have gotten away with it. and he said, once on tape and once writing by his bedside should have brought the tape. >> certainly was. and only non constitutionally might have been able to get away with that without causing a complete kadz custom but next on didn't strike a match and his aids were saying ok, will we going to have a fire on the white house line. who is going to start of take place? he suddenly remembered

kissinger. he wanted to have a record his own record so that he could rebut kissinger's version. >> of the tapes were invaluable to nixon. he knew that he could write a unique post presidential war memory other if he could hold on to the tapes. >> he was a smart guy he knew thepeople is made bit people that would right history. >> and now we have -- >> the books are being nixon, a man divided b evan thomas. and one man against the world the tragedy of richard nixon by tim weiner thank you for watching. see you next time. >> for more about this program and other episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com.

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announcer: a kqed television production. man: it's like holy mother of comfort food. kastner: throw it down. it's noodle crack. patel: you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. crowell: okay, i'm the bacon guy. man: oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. man #2: it just completely blew my mind. woman: it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. sbrocco: oh, please. i want the dessert first! [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait.