is. >> rose: welcome to the program, tonight the pope's visit to america. we talk to allen pizzey, matt malone, alexander stille and monsignor anthony figueiredo. >> the world loves him, and he's going forward on that band-aid, incredible. as we were saying before, no one speaks badly of this pope, effectively. you walk the streets of new york andatists, muslims, many people are attracted to him, to this man. and he's opening hearts in incredible ways. >> rose: ray kelley's book is called vigilance, my life serving america and protecting its empire city. we talk to the former new york commissioner of police. >> i think the mayor is a progressive. he says that all the time. i think he's an idealogue and he hasn't so far sort of moved to the center to manage the city.

he is focused on national politics and takes trips to various places and espouses a progressive movement. and a lot of other people think he's got to focus on the day-to-day workings of this city. >> rose: the pope visits america, ray kelly looks back at police work. next. funding for charlie rose is >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: american express. >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

pope francis arrived for his highly anticipated visit in washington on tuesday. he met with president obama at the white house this morning. they addressed a crowd of more than 11,000 people on the white house lawn. the pope appealed for action on climate change calling it a critical moment in history. hear to talk were this trip, the pope and the president's day is allen pizzey the cbs news rome correspondent, he has been traveling with the pope on the papal plan during the visit. in new york monsignor anthony figure rude-- figueired- and father matt malone, the president and editor in chief of america, national catholic weekly and here is alexander stille, a professor of international journalism and contributor to "new yorker" magazine. i'm pleased to have all of them on what i thought was a remarkably exciting day. and perhaps historic stay. tell me about this visit have as you have witnessed

it what struck knee leadly was how sort of determined he was to go through everything he had to do, the way he wanted to do it there were a lot of expectations and hopes particularly in cuba about what he should say, do, how he shuts act. and his plan, i think, was to get in there and push the church's agenda without going mano amano with the cubans because if you do that you get nowhere. so he didn't do the things people thought he ought to do on trips like meeting with prisoners, meeting with the poor people. he shied away from the dissident issue. but noned less he still got what he wanted. when you have raul castro standing up and sayinging well, the pope's agenda, christianity, the way the pope goes, the catholic agenda. that is the revolution. i mean he's got the cubans right where they want him, and they need him and are using him too. i think coming here and speaking english at the white house, the way he

spoke, the way he nunc yated made the point more clearly, more defiv tinly, more he motively than he could have done ever through a translator in italian. it wasn't easy, eng lirk is his third, maybe fourth language, he has been studying up to do that. and you have to, on the plane he was a bit combative. he does free-for-all question, no stage, you ask what you want to ask. we get a certain number to ask him. when he was pushed on whether he was a socialist and so on, leftist leanings and he said no, you're misinterpreting what i said. i just do church doctrine, then he was pushed on the idea of is the pope catholic. and he said, would you like me to recite the creed for you? find somewhere where i have done anything outside of church teachings. he basically challenged us. sow let us know straightaway, i'm here to do something and i'm going to do it. so the public looks at all the nice baby kissing and thinks what a lovely man. but underneath it, this is a very determined man.

he's got an agenda and he's going to pursue it, and that agenda is going to surprise a lot of people. i think will step on areas in a nice way that people don't expect him to. for example, i would bet money that the death penalty coming up. that is one of the things he is big on. i think that will come up on the speech tomorrow. i would bet on it. i haven't seen the speech but that's what i think. his big ticket issues are here, it's climate change, wars, arms race, what he called savage capitalism. this is the place to talk about it. and he is going to do it, charlie, he's really going to do it. >> he will have a chance to do all of that in the address before congress. an clearly that is a place he can raise a lot of political issues because it's a political house. matt, talk about the agenda and what you think here. because people say he coming here with both a pastoral role and a political role. >> well, he has a political role. >> political role in that the church takes a position on issues that it thinks have to do with right and wrong.

>> sure. and he comes here in a political sense because of his pastoral role. he is the leader of 1.3 billion catholics. and he's also a head of state. and the church makes truth claims that are per se public claims so they ought to be part of the public discourse. he is going to make specific public policy recommendations, no, of course he's not that is not his wrol and he has been clear about that. but the themes he will bring to congress are the themes that he first outlined this morning at the white house. it's immigration. it's economics, it's building community and solidarity. those are the things he returned to time and time and time again. he almost put people like me out of business. he tells you exactly what he's doing and then he tells you why he has done it. there is not a lot of

guesswork. >> rose: we don't need you to analyze because he tells you. >> exactly. >> rose: how is he different though in the pope that he has become from that first interview, the very first interview de was with america magazine, correct? >> yeah. >> rose: how is he different from the man you saw in that interview. >> he isn't. >> rose: he's the same man. >> the exact same man. in fact, i went back and reread that interview that he did in rome because you know, preparing for this visit. and you see in that interview the same themes that he has returned to time and time and time again. mercy, mercy, mercy. this is a time for reconciliation. and it's not a platitude. it is a prescription for what he feels ails the world. >> rose: how does he want to change the church? >> well, one of the things i think de right off the bat is that the church that he inherited was one that seemed to be in a kind of sale mate with much of both the catholic world and

noncatholic world. it had gotten in a stalemate over these issues, sexual morality, premarital sex, contraception, divorce, homosexuality, the whole thing. >> that, of course, no one, the dhufern has said-- . >> rose: they weren't doing a lot about it. >> right you by these issues have become the litmus test, and everything had become too become stalled around those issues. and what francis did very elegantly was just say wait a second, let's talk about other things. the chuferb is not just these prescriptions, the church is the gospel, the core of the gospel is loving thy neighbor, caring for the sick, thinking of the vulnerable. he changed the conversation in a very interesting way but without changing the doctrine. >> rose: he clearly, the reality is he that that he has become a player in terms of big international issues. on migration, ref

guey-- refugees, the most recent. is that a role that we ought to expect him to enlarge and do more of? >> well n fairness, the church has had a key role in that, not justnd francis but for some time. the church has been one of the only voices in europe that has been consistently supportive much recent immigration to europe and stood up for that and it's politically unpopular to do so. so he's building on that. but obviously, this migration crisis in europe is a biblical proportio. and the church invariably is going to have a role in that. the problem of reconciling europe to a period of significant dem graphic -- demographic change is being be a big ethical change. and the church has, in a way, some of the cultural instruments to help europe make that transition that it's having difficulty doing on other ground.

>> rose: here's what surprises me. monsignor, the idea that, because i was at the conclave and you and i were together at that time. i was surprised when he was selectedment because no one is coming up to me saying i know it is going to be him am they didn't say that. he was among a list of people but he wasn't even the front-runner. yet in retrospect, because he had been number two when benedict was selected, we should have expected him to be a front-runner. was there more to it than that in terms of his selection? had the church come to a point where it said we need a fresh wind in here. >> i think that's true, charlie. fascinating, i have spoken to a number of cardinals. they can't tell us what went on in conclave but he was such the surprise choice. >> rose: he was? >> yes. and the cardinals say that there was a moment in that conclave when it sees the holy spirit whispered in the ears of the cardinals and said this is the man.

>> rose: he is the one. >> one cannot explain it because they were looking for a younger cardinal after pope benedict because he was claimed in many ways for his age and failing health. they were looking for a manager, someone who could sort out the vatican problems and the finances and bureaucracy who had a managerial style. they were looking for someone with exactly the opposite qualities of-- . >> rose: they got a pastor. >> they got a pastor. and he has changed the church in a very different way than we all had planned. >> rose: how is that? >> for us as catholics we believe it's only the holy spiferment i really believe as well that this is a man who has great-- service, the jesuits love that he is institutely-- absolutely astute. and he knows exactly what is going on and what the world and church needs. >> rose: and does he appreciate and want to utilize his power?

that is probably a word he doesn't like. >> yes, he-- he said something today which i think was very interesting to the bishops. he said power should not be linked with authority. in that sense but it is the power of weakness that events allly will win the world. and it's his own weakness that speaks first. >> rose: what he meant by that? >> what he is saying is that we will attract people. we will attract the world. we will attract others by going to the poor. by going to the immigrant through works of charity, through works of mercy. and perhaps in the past we've had cardinals and bishops. you know, they've been worried about frills. this is a no-frills pope. and he's a man who has suffered in his own body. >> he is the son of immigrants. everything he has experienced in his own life, that's why he has so much compassion. >> . >> rose: at enexplain to us, because you have been up

close. the car ises ma he has. >> that's-- the charisma he has. >> that is interesting. because i have been up close to a couple of people with charisma, nelson mandela for one, you felt it when he entered the room. when francis comes along, comes to the back of the plane or shake your hand or talk to us. you feel warmth. you actually feel warmth. it's not like there is this wow, i'm enveloped by this spirit. there is a warmth to it. the man knows how to communicate to people, how to look at people, without them feeling that he's anything other than what he is. which leads me to something father figueiredo was saying, which is the way he uses his power. he's got himself the biggest pulpit you could imagine. but he doesn't preach. >> i think that what he has is credibility-- credibility because he talksed talk and walks the walk. in the interview with father spidaro. the first question is who is jorge mario bugalo. he says i'm a sin ever-- sinner.

coming right back to the weakness. that is made strong through the grace of god, that monsignor was talking about. later in that same interview, he revealed that his favorite image of the church is of a field hospital after a battle. and if you put those two things together, what you see is a man who sees himself first and foremost as a patient in the field hospital, along with the rest of us. someone who needs the grace of god in order to be. and to do in the world. that gives him an authenticity, a credibility, that is unrivalled among public figures in the world today. >> no question about it. >> the most credible person. >> and credibility is the currency of politics. >> it's a wonder that he is able to affect change the way that he has. that he was able to bring about the ra approachment between cuba and the united states. >> allen, who is around him. you have come from rome and you know the crowd that surrounds him, the people he depends on.

and the people who may shape him in terms of how he perceived and what he believes. >> it's an interesting question. because i don't really know the answer. i know that the secretary of state, the corn sell very close to him. he has several people i think that he relies on that we don't even know about it. it is said he even goes over and talks to benedict from time to time. i think he is quite his own manment someone i know who works in the vatican said to me one of the interesting things about francis is he will come up to you and ask you a question. but he already knows the answer. he wants to know what you think the answer is. he will ask two or three other people the same question in a different way. and then he puts it all together. so i think he relies on people who think like him a bit. he certainly has a lot of spanish-speakers around him. i think he's comfortable with his own kind, if you will, and maybe a little distrustful of the italians which understandable given the way the vatican works and the history. but i think he gets smart people around him. elise ens to them and then makes up his own mind.

i don't think anybody pushes him in any one direction at all. >> rose: what does he say about what he wants to accomplish in this visit, allen? >> he hasn't been specific but it's fairly obvious what his agenda is. this is a place you cannot ignore. there's 70 million catholics, third or fourth largest catholic population in the world. the things on his agenda that matter to him, climate change, refugees, the savage capitalism, that sort of thing, this is the place. and he's willing to step into the belly of the beast. i think he's got a kind red spirit in president obama in some ways. but it's interesting because if you look at the speech, for example, he talked about being an immigrant, in the first instance and then he moves, so he's got democrats on his side, maybe. moves into the next item and it's kind of, you could say a republican thing. he goes right down the middle. he can talk about any, take any of the issues he cares about, and not make them political. they're political issues but he doesn't make them political. i think his whole agenda here is to push the things

that matter to him, push them to the forefront. and it's perfect timing. he's got-- the visit was already planned to go to the world family day. so and it coincides with a big meeting at the u.n. so he will have all those heads of state. and ease's looking at that. can use that to say paris, paris, the paris summit on climate, push your agenda right there. that is what i want, what i need. you guys listen to me. so all of america, i'm sure right now loves pope francis. half of them, the world loves pope francis, so you go against this man, at your peril. no matter what stripe of politician you are. i think he knows that and is using it very well. he may be a mice sweet fellow but he's very astute i think, charlie. ot the ode people, thestrue. troops on his side. so whatever the generals think,. >> the troops are with him. >> the troops are with him. >> s thattee exactly what allen was saying. >> i think-- he can count.

>> matt said he could count, allen. >> okay. >> but he's been willing to use it. >> absolutely. something that i find mass fitting, talking about this holy father, you know, you have pope john paul ii who was that great figure who opened people's heartings in many ways, traveling the world as a superstar and young. i remember him going through new york and is that real superstar. then you have pope benedict who i really think filled people's heart with solid doctrine. but now we have a pope who is saying well, what are you going to do with all of this. >> i'm asking the question. he seems to want to change the emphasis of the conversation. >> absolutely. >> saying don't we spend all of our time on all of these divisive issues when there are some other items on our agenda. >> and give them a softer edge. that is what he said to the bishops this morning. you know, when he was speaking to the bishops a essentialed at st. matthew's

cathedral in washington, you know, he said it's very important that you stand up for what the church believes about life, about economics, about the environment. but your modus operandi has to be encounter, not confrontation. it's not about being a cultural warrior. it's about being an evangelist, right. and the goal here is dialogue. dialogue, dialogue, dialogue. must have appeared three or four times. >> rose: dialogue to what purpose? >> well, interestingly enough, dialogue for the purpose of dialogue in the beginning this is a -- >> just the understanding of each other. >> well, yes, because that vitally sent. you have to know the who before you can get to the what. as father spidaro remarked on our pages a couple of months ago, this is a pope who puts in motion processes, right, but he doesn't necessarily have an end in

mind. and that is a little unsettling for some folks. there isn't a corporation in the united states that would hire a c.e.o., a c.e.o. that says i don't actually have a plan. i'm just going to start this conversation. >> you like that, allen. >> very much. d catch the wind.ing tot he knows exactly -- >> yes, yes, yes. >> that's exactly what he is going to do. and to the monsignor's point about his authority, it's authority as the successor of peter that safeguards the conversation, as he said to the bishops and the family he said said whatever you feel. be not afraid. peter is here. >> so you expect, here is what i don't understand, alexander help me on this. it is the notion of what exactly is doctrine. and how do you change doctrine? >> well, this is a big

debate within the church because many sustain that there is a difference between tradition and doctrine there are many things the church does. it is a nearly 2,000 year institution. many practices have simply been done for centuries and have acquired a kind of solidity of doctrine even though they are in fact historical products even, you know, the church holds to the idea of priest celibacy. but it was not firmly pronounced until the middle ages and violated for much of the church's history. and yet that has become an issue that is considered to be decided doctrinally. so the whole thing distinguishing, depending who you are talking to, certain things are tradition and certain things are doctrine. for certain very traditional minded catholics, they insist that everything the church teaches can't be changed. and if you say well, actually, this evolved over

time, certain things that were held to be doctrine like believing in limbo, have disappeared from church teaching. things change with time. there are people who very much resist the idea of the church in a historic institution that is changed over time and insist there is kind of an unchanging truth that cannot be-- and then, you know, there are people like the famous eng lirk cardinal newman who says only things in heaven don't change. down here to be perfect is to change often. and i would say this pope is more in the change often camp. by it is-- that is a very tricky issue which could be kite explosive. we'll see in the doctrine, in the-- on the family how this plays out. >> rose: who opposes this pope, allen? >> quite a few, surprisingly quite a few people inside the roman couria.

they don't like the way he he's changing things, taking way their trappings of power and luck ree, if you will. there are others who think that he has gone well against chump doctrine. look cardinal burke, for example, whom he very quickly sidelined because he took a much harder line. there is a camp of hard-liners that don't want the kind of changes this pope is making. they don't like the direction they think he's going. they think he's taking the church. francis would say as he said on the plane, the church doesn't follow me, i follow the church. i am a just doing what the church wants to be done. but they don't like his interpretation. i talked about a year after he was elected i talked to a cardinal who had been around for quitea while, newman. i said what about the opposition. he said oh it's here. i said how strong is it. >> he said small but strong but then he laughed and said they will lose. and i think that's true. he's getting where he wants to go. people have given, look at last year, with all that stuff about gays and mixed

marriages an divorced people and son. the real hard-liners on that one, the ones that went against what we think was where francis wants to go, slowly he shouldn'ts them a sichlted he doesn't come in with an axe. he comes in with a scalpel and i think he's trimming away the fat. like making a piece of proscuiotto better to eat, you trim it and it gets tastier. i think that is what he is doing and it will be better when he's done. >> rose: do you agree with that? >> i agree. he has spent so many years among the people as a pastor. and one of the things that you have to learn as a pastor is to be comfortable with messiness, right. he's comfortable under the messiness of life, primarily because he has this deeply held faith in christ and in his church. you know, it was an interesting thing. during the last senate on the family, when they released the first

communique and it had kind of a different tone around gay and lesbian people, making sure that we welcome them without changing the teaching, about marriage between a man and a woman, people really panicked over this. and you would have the sense that this was going to lead to the downfall of the church, judging by their reactions. i thought we had,-- we have survived the roman empire. we can probably survive a bad press release, right? >> yes. >> rose: . >> this is-- he has this great faith that in christ and in his church, that the holy spirit is guiding us, even now, in this moment of history. and so things can get a little messy. we can have this conversation. we can be open. there can be a dialogue. and we don't have to be afraid. >> rose: he's 78 years old,

78. >> uh-huh. >> rose: there's always been a sense urgency even as he voiced it himself. cause he knows he doesate have a short spatial of time. >> rose: can say that to you. i'm here to do something and i am i don't have much time. i don't know how long and i want it done today. >> he does have a great mandate from the cardinals this man not expected to be pope was elect. the world loves him, people love him and he's going forward on that mandate. its's incredible. as we were saying before, no one speaks badly of this pope, effectively. you walk the streets of new york and athiests, muslims, many people are tracted to them, to this man, he is opening hearts in an incredible way n a fascinating way. i was struck this morning, for example, when he said that we complicated doctrines. we complicated the doctrines and we've got to say this is meant for you. it's again what father was saying. we've got to begin with a human person, not way doctrine. and that is quite a

revolution, in fact. and it threatens people t threatens people, threatens the courtia, it threatens the clerical side of the church. he is declericalizing the church, i really believe that. and he's asking us to be with people, declericallizing the church. i think when we say someone who is very clerical holds on to their power, their authority and expects people to follow them because of that authority, there is a revolution here. he's saying that's not the starting point. father was would say it's the human person who is the starting point. and our greatest strength are in fact the weakest. ing to open others to the faith. because we feel attracted. i mean when he talks about abortion and people are welcome into the church, if they know they are welcome, if we go to the weakest members of society, if we say to these weakest members of society, god does not

judge you. there is mercy. there is this mercy, mercy, mercy. and suddenly it opens doors t doesn't close doors, this pope is all about opening doors, not closing doors t doesn't mean changing the doctrine but unless we get them into our churches, how can we ever say anything to them? and the church hasn't been very good at that in the past. it's gotten so involved simply with the doctrinal issues and canon law, all very important, often forgetting the human person. i often think, charlie, that's what jesus did. who did he go to? he went to the adulteress woman, the tax collectors, he went to the helpers. they're the ones who he attracted. and they were attracted by him and called others to faith. and called others to joy. and called others to hope. that's what the world needs today and he knows it. >> rose: allen, as we conclude this, tell me what the schedule for the rest of his visit to america. >> well, he's got-- he will

address the joint meeting of congress tomorrow. and then we move on to new york. he speaks at the u.n.. he goes to pray at ground zero and a fewer other pastol ang things and then on to philadelphia for the last two days of the world family day. and the final event will be a huge mass. they've closed off a big section of a road. they're expecting a million and a half people. that takes place on sunday and then we're overnight back to home, charlie. >> thank you so much, allen, good to see you, thank you monsignor. >> thank you. >> thank you,. >> thank you. >> back in a moment. stay with us. ray kelly sheer, he spent more than four decades at the new york police department occupying 25 different commands. and serving twice as commissioner. under his tenure the nypd was revamped into a relentless counterterrorism and intelligence force and took a tough at times controversial approach to reducing street crime. the city's murder rate was the lowest since the 1960s by the time he retired from

2013. he recounts his experiences in a new memoir it is called vigilance, my life serving america and protecting its empire city. so i'm pleased to have ray kelly back at this table. welcome. >> good to be back with you, charlie. >> i want to talk about this book but first talk to me about today, the great crisis between police and communities in some major american cities. >> yeah. well, there's no question about it. the shootings that we saw, horrendous shooting in north charleston, south carolina, where walter scott is gunned down by a police officer, shot in the back. the world saw that, that video. the incident in ferguson and some other high profile events in garner, and here in new york, have raised the specter of discuss am between the police and some members of the community. usually communities of color. now i think from my vantage

point of being in the police department, being in law enforcement, almost 50 years, that generally speaking, relations between minority communities and the police are better than they've been in many years. however when you have this bubble, these types of things t sets it back, no question about it. so that's kind of where we are now. i think it has caused hesitancy on the part of the police to engage the way they've engaged in the past. and i think that's one of the reasons why you see an increase in murders, at the times that started two weeks ago, about 30 cities in the u.s., murder increases, so that is sort of where we are right now. i guess the question is what do we do to get back the confidence. >> i want to talk about that too. some of the people in urban communities say this is nothing new. you know, it's just now getting attention because there is a lot more focus on it. there's a capacity of people to take pictures. >> yes. >> so you can see what's

happened. >> yeah. >> you're absolutely right. and some people's minds, this is suspicions concerned. in my mind, not the case. these are aberrations aniff's been in law see in my history police0 officers doing heroic good work. changing the nature, certainly changing the nature of this city. two decades ago we had big problems here. new york is now the safest big city in america. we hope it stays that way. >> two points on that. one, i don't think undeniable fact. it's not that everybody who wears blue is in conflict with whatever community there is. so you understand that. then at the same time, though, you wonder what it is that makes those who are the way they are, is it the

lack of training, is it lack of sensitivity? is it not simply being of the right temperment to be a police officer? >> you know, i think it's complex. some of them are just bad decisions. made quickly and it was just the wrong decision. i think some of it had to do with selection. i don't think as a profession that we do a good enough job in selecting people to become police officers. >> we give awesome power to police officers. literally the life or death. we don't even require a college degree for that. whereas we require a college degree for virtually every teacher in america so i think we should up the stems in that regard. i think also we should drill down in much more effectively on psychological testing. who wants to become a police officer? let's look at bullying, for instance. what's the effect of having been bullied or being a bully and this person becomes a police officer. i don't know the answer to

that. but i think we need much more work in that regard. because selection is where it's at. you don't want to hire your problems. but. >> and it's certainly true too that you see it in cities that are run by men and women of color have some of the same kinds of problems. >> that's no panacea, no guarantee. >> so even if you are coming from a minority community is no guarantee that you will be able to, in a position of leadership, avoid the kind of conflicts that exist in the rank and file. >> absolutely, yeah. >> rose: so what's the solution? train sming. >> i don't know if-- . >> rose: selection. >> i don't know if there is one magic solution. i think training. obviously you can never get too much training, but there has to be a point where you put cops on the street. i recommend raising educational level. i do say more comprehensive examination and testing for psychology, psychological

standards of concern. i also think cameras will make a difference. it i was initially against police officers wearing cameras but everybody over ten years of age has a camera. >> and i think for instance if you look at that shooting in north charleston south carolina, you have to think that no rational police officer officer wearing a camera would engage in conduct like that. i, the train has left the station as far as cameras are concerned. police officers, police departments should embrace it. is it expichbs, yes. is it difficult to maintained memory requirement, is large. who has access to it? all of these things have to be worked out. but i know that we'll see a lot more good work, heroic work than the aberrations and inappropriate conduct that we have seen. >> but i think that will go, as it is adopted. it will take years to do

this. that will go a long way increasing community trust. >> when you look back at your term and most recently as commissioner, would you do anything different? would you, have you come to different conclusions having time to reflect on what happened during your tenure? >> not really. i think i reflect on it in putting the book together. on the big decisions, no, pretty much we do everything that we did. i think as you said before, when the bloomberg administration left we had record low murders, record low shootings, record low shootings by police officers. 70% approval rating of the department. i had a 75% personal approval rating this is after 12 years or you know 11 and a half years when the poll was taken. >> do you think policeman in new york city operating under a different-- are operating under a different understanding of where and how they should perform their job? >> well, i think some of the

signals that have been given to police officers in new york city are signals that say hey, hesitate, pull back, that sort of thing. we had the stop and risk or stop question and frisk lawsuit in this city that ultimately resulted in a monitor. we have an inspector general that was put in place by the city council, even though there were almost a thousand officers doing internal investigations in the department there are five district attorneys in new york city there are two u.s. attorneys in new york city. there's a commission to combat police corruption. but i think the signals, yes, have been to hold back and i think ultimately that will result in crime going un. >> rose: but how does that affect crime? if you are holding back, meaning you are hesitant to make an arrest, you are hesitant to do what?

>> hesitant to engage, stopping, we pay police officers to intervene in a person's conduct. that is what we want them to do. this goes back to common law, its whole stop, question and frisk issue was validated by the supreme court case terri versus ohio. it's codified thought through the-- throughout the country. the numbers that police officers are at least recording now in new york city are way believe what you would think is appropriate for a city of 8.4 million people. and the city that has about 20 million hours of patrol time on the part of its police force in the city and a city that gets hundreds of thousands of calls about suspicious conduct, every year. it now i think about 40,000. and that's way, way too low. so that's what i mean. at least that is the manifestation of holding back and not engaging. >> you leveled your criticism at the mayor, mayor de blasio, not at

police commissioner -- >> i think the number one law enforcement person in any community is the mayor. that's where the direction comes from. that is where the tone comes d you have to assume-- assume that the police commissioners responding to the directions, either direct or indirect from the mayor. >> rose: you said you were immediately regretted watching the mayor's inauguration on youtube. >> yeah. >> rose: why? >> i thought it was really disgraceful. >> rose: what was -- >> mime blameberg, 12 years, by any objective standard did a terrific job. he comes in three and a half months after 9/11. everybody was predicting another terrorist attack. crime was going to go up, the city was going to go to hell in a hand basket. i think, and most people do, certainly most objective people do, think he did a wonderful job. yet he was insulted. when he was present there, it showed no class at all. i have never seen that happen. and you know, you have to be a graceful winner.

>> rose: not by the mayor but by someone else. >> again t goes back to tone. tell him stop, don't say that. you assume that he knows-- his staff knew what people were going to say. no, i thought it was-- a cheap shots and showed no class at all. >> rose: so what do you think the-- said of the mayor. >> hard to figure out. i think the mayor is a progressive. he says that all the time. i think he is an idealogue and he hasn't so far sort of moved to the center to manage the city. he is focused on national politics. and he takes trips to various places and espouses a progressive movement but i think, and a lot of other people think he's got to focus on the day-to-day workings of this city. >> rose: but you can also argue that mike bloomberg was progressive on many issues too. >> the difference is that mike bloomberg was engaged in the day-to-day operations of the city. held his commissioners

accountable, had meetings where he drilled down, got realtime information. you know, you had to be on your game if you were commissioner working for mayor de blasio. i'm not certain that the case. >> rose: for mayor bloomberg. you had to be on your game for mayor bloomberg. >> mayor bloomberg. i'm not certain that is the case with mayor de blasio. >> rose: tell me what should happen when you have the action with the former tennis pro james blake, that he is tackled. evidently some mistaken identity or something. how does that happen, realizing it was not under your jurisdiction, it was after you left the office t was very recent. but how-- what ought to be the approach after something like that happens what would you do sm. >> we don't know what was in the officer's head. we don't know what information he had about this individual possibly running or what have you. but if you just look at the video, it looks like inappropriate conduct. now what should have happened there-- . >> rose: it was because everybody apologized to him.

>> what should have happened there, since it's a credit card fraud case is he should have gone up-- . >> rose: not him, he was misidentified. >> assuming he was-- they thought he was the person traitor. so you identify yourself as a police officer and a hey, can i talk to you for a second. you take them into the lobby, you don't lead them out into the streetment and you have one or two other officers with you. i know there was a teen but he was, i think, close by. they were engaged, apparently in something else. but you wouldn't normally arrest somebody by yourself. >> rose: and rush in and tackle them. >> and rush in and tackle him. certainly givened nature of the crime. again, i don't know what the officer knew and was there a possibility of being armed. but just looking at the video, it does not look like appropriate behavior by any means. >> rose: so should an officer like that, obviously he should be given due process. >> yeah. >> rose: and he will in the police department. >> there is a comprehensive pretty sophisticated disciplinary system in the department. there are courtrooms. there are advocates, there

are defense lawyers. so you go through that process. >> rose: police organizations have established a clear process for dealing with issues like this. >> ive it's been in the department for a long time. but yes, the unions certainly play a role but the system ultimately makes a recommendation to the police commissioner so the police commissioner makes the final determination as far as discipline is concerned. >> were the police out of line to insult the mayor by turning their back on him? >> i thought so. you have to respect the position. but it was a very emotional time. you had two police officers over the ramos and lou assassinated, just gunned down in their car, they didn't have a chance. so it was, given some of the things that the mayor had said, his comments after th eric garner grand jury decision, those sorts of things had added to the emotion. but i think it was inappropriate. >> when you think about terrorism, enormously

concerned about, you had officers around the world, whenever theres was a terrorist incident, they would go. you and i talked about that on this program before. is it getting more difficult now because of all the on-line activity, because of so many other factors, because so many people find themselves for whatever reason attracted to the sorted of opportunity to join something larger than themselves and show some sense of bad judgement? >> yeah. well, the threat certainly hasn't diminished. i have said it pretty constant. >> the threat from -- >> the threat from terrorism. and certainly against the city. by the intelligence community as the number one target in this country. >> rose: new york city is the number one target. >> yes. you see isis, isis-inspired events and people, 90,000

tweets a day on the internet. very difficult for intelligence world to get their arms around that sorts of activity. and we see this phenomenon still of these young disaffected men. obviously vast majority of men being radicallized on the internet. and then deciding to kill people in their own country. it happens in lots of other places as well. we're going to be fighting this fight for a long time to go. no easy answers, not going to be able to bomb our way out of it. isis is a movement. they're on the ground in certain places but it's much more. >> we can't kill our way out. we have to find a way to have better intelligence as to what is going on and act in a better way. >> better intelligence. even in minneapolis there have been efforts to sort of take individuals who were actually arrested for deciding to go to somalia and fight, to somehow put

them back on the right track. who knows if that is going to work. i'm some what skeptical but i think it's worth a shot. >> rose: vladimir putin talked to me recently for an upcoming interview on "60 minutes." and he said talking about the threat of isis was what worried him the most, even as the russian leader, the russian leader, was the returning fighters. people who had russian, other passports and go join isis, learn how to engage in certain kinds of terror activities and then with a russian passport return. that is what bothered him the most. >> absolutely. and i think it should bother us here. i think we are doing a much better job of tracking of people without go and come back. but they usually take a circuitous route. you don't just go to syria, for instance. you knee, you go to other countries an this is a concern throughout the developed world, people go and come backment you assume they are coming back with trades craft, to conduct terrorist acts.

even if they don't use it, that knowledge is still in their head. so it's a real problem. he's wise to say that. >> have you changed your mind at all about stop and frisesing? >> no, not really. it's a legitimate phinx. it has to be done with professionalism. >> rose: was it done with professionalism would be a question. >> you hope so you can't guarantee it. but i think it was. i think the lawsuit that was here, was a bad decision. the decision was to the based on the evidence in that case. and with if look at the stop levels throughout the country, in new york was certainly not number one. philadelphia, chicago, baltimore, los angeles, all had higher stop rates for police officers, you have a norm for population so it is a practice that police officers need to do. as i said before, you want

them to intervene. i think it is a deter ent. you see a rise in shootings in these cities. i think part of it is that it's now known that the police will not be as proactive as they've been in the past. and particularly in the area of stopping and questioning. now every stop does not result in a frisk or a patdown. actually less than half do. but it is a per jor difficult term no question about it i talk about that in the book. stop and frisk. nobody wants to be stopped and frisked, we understand that. but it should have been something like field interrogation what you have. but if you go out to grass roots minority communities, they are asking for it. you know, and there is a sense that obviously it has been diminished and they wanted to come back in terms of the volume. >> what's the role. police in considerable areas like homelessness? what should which expect

from the police? >> i think we have to look at a multiagency approach. certainly can't fault the police but the police also have a responsibility to maintain a public order. and the bloomberg administration we had a proactive, again my favorite word. >> rose: homeless outreach. put them in shelters. >> take them, offer them services, if they're violating a law, you arrest them. and you can see that the manifestation of the problem has increased in new york city. it's much more visible now than it has been. >> rose: why -- >> exactly why it's difficult to say. but it's sort of a feeling of maybe permissiveness, what you have. i've seen youngare perfectly het staked out a corner and they're on that corner living every day. i mean it's hard to figure. >> rose: you think that sends a signal.

>> yeah. it sends a signal that they -- this is accepted or tas elevatorly accepted here. and it seems to be multiplying. >> rose: i used to have the impression that everybody believed that having a community policeman that you knew that could walk the beat was a very good idea. so that everybody in the neighborhood knew the policeman or not only were they in police vans or police cars but they also were walking the block. is that an old idea that is no longer relevant? because of technology, because of budgets, because of so many other things? >> we've been doing it for almost 30 years in this city. ben ward was the police commissioner, he started it. lee brown came here, was a big effort. i was his deputy commissioner so, it is expensive. it's the most expensive way to patrol.

i think in certain neighborhoods it's of value. but not everybody wants to have if, the local cop come into the store and sit with them. what you shoot for-- . >> rose: why not? >> well, because they're not particularly like cops or what have you. but the motion that everybody ultimately should love a cop is unrealistic. >> rose: . >> you shoot for mutual respect. police respecting community they serve, and vice versa. the community respect. >> rose: wouldn't it be better policing and better for the community if they knew each other and there was an awareness that a, a, you could confide in the police officer or b the police officer was there to protect you. and he was-- he or she had -- >> that is a little bit of i think an oversimplification. a lot of communities, and the outlook to confide in the police. >> you also had an idea and you and i have talked about this before, that the presence, we would have cars with nobody in them, right. that was awhile ago, yeah,

uh-huh. >> the idea of a strong police presence was a very important concept. >> absolutely. >> you would have, you know a series of police cars driving together and all of that to say the police are here. >> yeah, that's true. >> so what is what was the purpose of that. >> i think it's different with community policing but that is -- >> the same idea of police presence s it not? >> well, police presence in certain communities is a good thing. and what we did was put in operation impact, we call it, where we have police officers graduated from the police academy with supervision who go in and really saturate a particular area. normally about 20 zones in the city. and it worked for our administration. now what are you talking about is the convoys that we have that go through the city. on our watch. the police department was down 6,000 police officers where it was in the previous administration.

>> right. >> so yeah, we like that movement. we like people to see police, particularly in the midtown area. if you go to times square or go to other parts of manhattan, you will see a lot more police than you'll ever see in other major cities, london, paris so that was part of our tactic, part of our strategy. i support the concept. i put the program in place in the 1990s, safe street, safe city plan. all the commissioners have been supportive of it. >> tell me what is the most recent innovative idea in police work? >> you know, it probably all comes to technology. the use of technology. use of police officers having cell phones that do a lot of things that make records immediately available to them. we started something called a realtime crime center but the motion was to take that concept and. >> which is where you can get information on what is going on, in the city, what

records of particular individuals, you had to call up. detectives did that and still do it. now incrementally you move towards making the realtime crime center a portable entity, a portable device that makes that information available to the police officer. so it is about information, it's about technology. that's what is happening in police work. and happening in so many other fields as well. >> rose: what did mayor-- police commissioner bratton do that undid something that you took great pride in? were there things that -- >> i don't even not even certain because i don't focus on a day to day basis. but the notion that i understand-- the notion that somehow stop question and frisk was overused here, then it had to be overused in los angeles when he was the chief. overused in philadelphia and baltimore. you look at the rates. so somehow he is changing

his position. and i think it's a valuable tool that will result in increased-- you see shootings are you, murders are up here. use for concern.hould be a >> rose: the book is called vigilance, my life serving america and protecting it's empire city, a city that ray kelly loves, thank you for coming. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program arlie rose.combs.org andit captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> funding my charl yeaux rose is provided by american express, additional funding provided by:. on tomorrow's pbs newshour as the pope looks at the state of catholic schools in the united states.

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