>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with a report by david martin of cbs news, looking at the air campaign from qatar directed at i.s.i.s. in syria and iraq as well as a raid that took place in iraq resulting in the death of an american soldier from delta force. >> the intent was to rescue what were thought to be kurdish prisoners before they were executed and the belief they were about to be executed came from aerial surveillance of the prison compound which showed mass graves being dug. they went in there led by peshmerga special forces, backed up by u.s. commandos, a firefightinfire fight broke oute

american commando was killed in the firefighting, but they managed to save or rescue 70 prisoners being held by i.s.i.s. and those prisoners have since told the united states, now that they're back in some form of safety, that they had been told that they were going to be executed after morning prayer. >> rose: we continue with a look inside the committee investigating benghazi. congressman adam schiff, a democrat from california talks about where the committee goes from here. >> this is now the eighth or ninth investigation. in the very beginning, after these tragic events, there were very legitimate questions about was the security enough, were there requests made for additional security that went unheeded, who was responsible for that, how do we improve security in the future, what happened afterwards, why were the talking points wrong, those were all legitimate questions

but by the time this investigation started, they had all been asked and answered which was the challenge in what we were going to do new in this investigation. >> rose: we conclude with herb alpert and 50th anniversary of his album "whipped cream and other delights." >> it's hard to predict a hit record. in 1965, my partner and i released third man theme on the a side and on the b side was a taste of honey. i was playing in seattle, washington, at the edgewater inn. every time i played taste the funny, it was like a focus group. i called my man jerry and said we're on the wrong side. he said, it's not a radio record. i said, i'm telling you, turn it over. he finally did and three months later it was the breakthrough

record. >> rose: david martin, adam schiff and herb alpert when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: american express. >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we begin this evening with the air campaign against i.s.i.s. in iraq and sir. i can't david martin visit add crucial military base in qatar where the strikes are run.

here's a look at the report airing sunday on "60 minutes." >> the b-1 is carrying 17 and a half tons of bombs and 170,000 pounds of jet fuel. it's strange to get airborne in the reduce lift of 100-degree heat. it will take nearly three hours to reach the target with two aerial refuelings along the way. >> mr. martin, welcome to the combat operations floor. >> lieutenant colonel david hayworth takes us into the command center to watch as the b-1 and other aircraft carry out the day's attack plan against i.s.i.s. >> it doesn't have windows but a nice view, a good look at the arabian gulf back in iraq and syria. >> the air war has been going on 14 months but this is the first time news cameras are allowed in the nerve center. >> the weapon of choice is information. the more information we have about our enemy and friendlies, the better we are able to make decisions. >> on one wall a giant map

showing the location of every plane. green and american or allied, the blue are commercial, the other an manned drones, one of dozens over iraq and sir. i can't we go to the spot in the center called the crow's nest. >> this is the center of the air campaign against i.s.i.l and daesh. >> the b-1 bomber is on the mission against i.s.i.s. general brown is the commander. how much effort does it take to mount a strike like that? >> just that one airplane, about a three-day process. some of the targets we've looked at for days, weeks and sometimes months. >> just after 2:00 a.m., five american helicopters with 30 u.s. special operations forces along with iraqi kurd commandos landed outside a heavily guarded i.s.i.s. prison in northern iraq. the troops stormed the compound

and in an exchange of gunfire killed around two dozen i.s.i.s. fighters. the u.s. servicemen fatally wounded. 70 hostages were about to be executed including 20 iraqi soldiers. >> rose: we want to talk about the "60 minutes" report airing this weekend and also the u.s. air raid in iraq and first american killed in iraq since the military intervention last year. david martin joins me from the pentagon. pleased to have him back on the program. thank you for joining us. >> sure thing. >> rose: let's talk first about the raid. tell me what we know now in terms of what was the intent, the success and what does it imply about the future? >> well, the intent was to rescue what were thought to be kurdish prisoners before they were executed and the belief that they were about to be executed came from aerial surveillance of the prison compound which showed mass

graves being dug. they went in there led by peshmerga special forces backed up by u.s. commandos, a firefight broke out. one american commando was killed in the firefight, but they managed to save or rescue 70 prisoners being held by i.s.i.s., and those prisoners had since told the united states, now that they're back in some form of safety, that they had been told that they were going to be executed after morning prayer, and if you back up the time of the raid, that means that those commandos landed at about five or six hours before the scheduled execution. one other interesting thing about that raid, just minutes

ago i was in a press conference with defense secretary carter, and he said, i expect there will be more like this. >> rose: it seems here, though, there is something indicated by this that america's prepared to do. >> that's right. if you look at the last war in iraq when, of course, the united states had 100,000-plus troops on the ground, what really defeated al quaida in iraq were those special operations night raids, ten and twenty a night, in which they not only killed and captured leaders but they stuffed up all the cell phones and laptops and got more intelligence about the network. in this war, when we only have 3500 trainers and advisors and we now know some commandos on the ground, there have been exactly two raids, the one earlier this week and one a couple of months ago when they

went after an i.s.i.s. leader named abu sief in syria. they got a lot of intelligence out of that raid in terms of how the finances of i.s.i.s. works. they say they got a lot out of this raid on the prison compound. we won't don't know what was in the intelligence. >> rose: my understanding is they captured some i.s.i.s. combatants. >> it's not clear. they have six members of i.s.i.s., but it's not clear if they were running the prison or were prisoners who had somehow run afoul of i.s.i.s. by perhaps being suspected of being spice. south -- spies. so it's not clear they got any biggies in the race. >> rose: we know the u.s. was asked to do this by the peshmerga to join them. >> that's right. of course, in iraq, the mantra is that iraq is a sovereign

country and we're there at the behest of the iraqi government, and we saw it in the air war. i mean, the fact is that, in iraq, iraq has the veto power over any target the u.s. wants to strike because it's their country. >> rose: what do we know about how the member of delta force or a part of the special forces died? >> well, again, secretary carter just said something interesting which i haven't had a chance to follow up on yet, but he said the indications are that that soldier whose name was joshua wheeler, a 39-year-old master sergeant, that he and one of his teammates were the ones really responsible for being able to pull those prisoners out of there. now, i don't know the circumstances of why he said that, but that's what the secretary said.

and he was hit, it said, by enemy small-arms fire. of course, you know, in a firefight like that, it's possible that you could be hit by friendly fire, but the pentagon specifically said he was hit by enemy small arms fire. >> rose: let me talk about what you saw and the access you had. >> yeah. >> rose: what surprised you about what you saw? >> i think what surprised me most both in what i saw and the reporting i did leading up to it is the difficulty of finding high-value targets that are really worth hitting. when you go there, you see very clearly, the u.s. air force can hit just about anything it aims at. every once in a while, there is a dud. i think the dud rate on the bombs is 2%. otherwise, they are firing satellite-guided or laser-guyedd

weapons that almost always hit the target. hitting the target is not the problem. the problem is finding lucrative targets. the raid we watched was against a cluster of buildings that were supposed to hold a car bomb factory that i.s.i.s. used to mount car bomb attacks, and when we watched the raid, you could clearly see secondary explosions that indicated explosives were, indeed, in those buildings. but what's to stop i.s.i.s. from moving into another vacant building, getting some more derelict cars, making some more homemade explosives? so -- and this is what passes for i.s.i.s.'s industrial base, these car bomb factories, those oil platforms where they skim oil off the desert floor. so this air campaign would not

pass a cost-benefit analysis. that b-1 bomber that dropped its bombs on those buildings, and it basically obliterated those buildings, it stayed over iraq for several more hours, and it was sent to check out a report of a lone sniper on a rooftop. so here you have this bomber that was built to drop nuclear weapons on the soviet union back in the 1980s which is carrying 17 1/2 tons of conventional bombs hunting around for one sniper. >> rose: but here's what's interesting, for me, is this the place they coordinate with the russians on there is no overlap in terms of this word they use "conflicting"? >> well, we don't know exactly where that coordination happens, but it's got to go through this

command center. when we were there, there was no coordination. the memo of understanding had not been assigned -- had not been signed yet. so we didn't see any formal coordination. but, you know, the american pilots we've talked to were not sweating the russians at all. they know that they have air superiority over those russian planes and that the russians would be very foolish. i mean, first place, there are about three times as many u.s. aircraft as there are russian. but i think, more importantly, the u.s. has all these support aircraft, like these awac's mushroom planes with the big antenna on top and they give the pilots a picture of everything happening in the airspace, and

they'll see the russian before the russians see them and, in addition, the u.s. also has deployed the f-22 stealth fighter, which is the only jet fighter in the world that is both supersonic and stealthy, and the russians don't have anything like that. so the americans still maintain total air superiority over syria. the russians are a nuisance. >> rose: okay, they're a nuisance to the u.s., but do we know whether they have been effective at all in terms of their attacks against rebel forces fighting assad? >> well, yeah, i mean, they're helping the syrian army along with iranian fighters mount offenses to take back some of the territory in the corridor that runs from damascus up to aleppo, and they are making some

progress. but they've conducted, so far, about 140 strikes. the u.s. conducts about 140 striect140strikes in two days. they conduct 60 to 70 weapons a day, and you see how slow the progress is that the u.s. and its allies are making against i.s.i.s. so i don't think russia is going to have dramatic effects instantaneously on the battl battlefield with fewer air strikes. >> rose: are we still left with the idea that airstrikes will get you somewhere but not far enough, unless they find soldier and combat troops on the ground, they can never complete the job? >> you've got to retake the ground to win a war and, to me, that's probably the most discouraging thing about what i

witness. the last iraq war, we had up to 130,000 troops on the ground with complete control of the air and it took eight years. this iraq war, we've got 3,500 advisors on the ground and who knows how long it's going to take. >> rose: david martin of the pentagon, thank you so much. >> sure thing. >> rose: david martin from cbs news. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: former secretary of state hillary clinton ran a marathon on thursday. she spent eight hours fielding questions in front of the longest running select committee in the history of the united states congress. the issue was the deadly 2012 attack on an american diplomatic compound in benghazi, libya, and at the end the committee's republican chairman conceded there were no big revelations. we reached out to all the republican members of the select committee to appear on this program. of those who responded, none were able. representative adam schiff is one of the democrats on the committee. i am pleased to have him here.

to get a sense of where we are and where we might be going in this investigation. congressman schiff, welcome to the program. >> thanks. it's great to be with you. >> rose: where are we and where are we going? >> it's a great question. it's hard to say. all the other hearings planned this year were canceled once the hearing with secretary clinton were scheduled. initially there were going to be about 10 or 12 hearings, some with the defense secretary, head of the c.i.a., but those were all put off or canceled for good. so we're waiting to hear from the majority and, of course, we'll have to evaluate based on their plan going forward what that means in terms of our participation. there has been a debate all along about whether it makes sense for democrats to participate in what we view as a highly partisan exercised designed to attack the secretary. so we're going to have to see what they plan in the future and make a decision about that.

>> rose: is it likely you will not go forward, democrats. >> our ranking member statement is we continue to participate for now. but a lot will spend depend where they intend to take this. to be honest, i don't think they know yet where they want to take this. everything seems to be leading up to the moment we had last night and i think they're in the process of the evaluation how much longer they want this to drag on and what is the objective. we tried at the beginning of the investigation to get them to agree to some scope, if not a scope in terms of the time of the investigation at least to identify what issues we were trying to unravel, whether it was the allegation of the stand-down order or whether it was some other issue, but they were unwilling to intentionally narrow or even define the scope. so we're not really sure where we're headed, to be honest. >> rose: have you asked for the release of the transcripts of the interviews with sidney

blumenthal? >> we have many times. this was a deposition governed by the house rules. we were entitled to have a vote on the release of the transcript. we asked promptly after his deposition to have that vote. the republicans were never scheduled to vote. they didn't want to have to vote on this. as you saw last night, we were forced to vote on it during the piddle of this hearing and republicans voted to keep the transcripts private. very curious because they were willing to release sidney blumenthal's e-mails, but not the transcript of his explanation of the context of the e-mails. i think, charlie, the reason is clear -- i haven't so much what he said in that private deposition but what they asked him, because the g.o.p. members have been going on national tv to say they're not interested in clinton foundation or the personal relationship he had with the clintons, but if you look at the questions asked,

there were literally hundreds of questions about the foundation, about media matters, about the relationship he had with the clintons and almost nothing about the events of benghazi. >> rose: tell me what you think the big questions were and what the answers were. >> well, you know, i tell you what the big questions were at the outset of all of the investigations, because we have to put this in context. this is now eighth or ninth investigation. in the very beginning after these tragic events, there were very legitimate questions about was the security enough or were there requests made for additional security that went unheeded, who was responsible for that, how do we improve security in the future, what happened afterwards, why were the talking points wrong, those were all legitimate questions, but by the time this investigation started, they had all been pretty well asked and answered, which was the challenge, frankly, in defining what we were going to do new in this investigation. now, there have been these persistent myths out there about

stand-down orders, gun running, interference and security, so it was pretty clear we were going to do another look at that. but what i think is so telling about this, and this was intimated by the chairman at the conclusion of the clinton hearing, and that is notwithstanding all the witnesses we've talked to and all the interviews, all the documents we've received, all the e-mails that have been so talked about, there's really been nothing new discovered that attars any of the core conclusions that were made in these other eight investigations. r a year and a half's worth of work, in the sense that we can't tell the families or the american people anything particularly new about those tragic events. >> rose: are you bothered by the fact that the secretary of state did not know about the request for additional security? >> well, you know, i think the secretary answered that quite well yesterday and it wasn't the first time she's been asked. there are people responsible for

the security of all our consulates and emsies, received ambassador's request for additional security and i don't know if i would want as a policy matter the secretary of state to monitor the number of the security personnel or the level of setback of the facility. there are people in the state department whose job that is. the question question of do we keep the facility open is appropriate for hander those questions went to her. >> rose: but in this case, this was someone she knew and admired and if he was questioning additional security, you might assume somehow it would get to her. >> well, you know, it might have and didn't. i think the fact that they did have a relationship and this was someone that she chose for this position i think indicates also

that if ambassador stephens thought she was the right person to make these decisions, he would have been able to go to her and there is a mechanism to go to her within the state department. the reality, too, though, is the secretary has a relationship with all the ambassador around the world, some more than others, obviously. but we have to put this in perspective. there were 20 capitols that seemed under siege at this time when that video took place, and there were numerous other hot spots around the world that the secretary also had to deal with, a lot of very dangerous posts and, so, you know, whether this particular request should have gotten to her, the answer is it didn't get to her and i think it's hard to lay responsibility at her feet for a request that never made it on to her desk. >> rose: i think she pointed out she had a number of conversations with chris and that security was not brought up. >> well, you know, i'm not sure

how many conversations. i'm not sure how often she communicated with the ambassador but i know she was quite clear that he never raised a security issue with her and, you know, i think the accountability review board which looked at this dispassionately and objectively, done by two career servants of this country, they concluded that that decision to act on those requests was certainly a flawed decision by those who made it. but that was really not a decision to be made at the secretary of state level. >> rose: as she says, every recommendation has been implemented. is that a fair statement? >> it is a fair statement. now i think that she said when she left the state department, they were all in the process of being implemented. some, frankly, will take years to fully implement. she mentioned during the hearing that one we in congress have slowed down and not fully implemented and that is the establishment of a joint training center to train our

diplomatic security personnel. that's a project slated to be built in virginia that senator jim cain has been advocating for for some time. if we were as serious for advocating for security, we would get the project moving. >> rose: there is also the question of where does spontaneous reaction to a film, where does that go from being spontaneous in terms of the streets of benghazi to a planned al quaida attack or an al quaida attack taking advantage of a spontaneous outburst? >> this is a subject we covered in an investigation that lasted almost two years on the intelligence committee where i serve, and what we discovered in our investigation, and i think that's been verified by this new select committee as well, and that is that the intelligence we received in the hours after the attack was improved in the days after the attackers and then changed yet again about a week

after the attack, so, initially, some of the very first intelligence that the secretary got indicated this was a planned attack as a she related to the egyptian prime minister. but within 24 to 48 hours, the c.i.a. then assessed that actually based on signal intelligence, human intelligence, open-source intelligence, it probably began as a protest that was hijacked into an attack. it wasn't until about eight days after when we actually got the videos from the compound and we could see in the videos that there was no protest outside the facility that we were able to definitively conclude that this did not begin as a protest. but what i think is significant here is if you look at what the secretary said at the time she said it, much like if you look at what ambassador rice said at the time she said it, it was consistent with what the intelligence community was telling us at that time. anyone who knows how the

intelligence process works particularly after a tragic event like this when you're in the fog of war, your assessments to continue to evolve over time as you get more information. we in congress like the country after this tragedy were clamoring what do we know and, you know, a lot of our public officials were trying to tell us what they knew as soon as we knew it. some of that proved to be wrong, but we found no evidence that there was any deliberate intent to deceive anyone. >> rose: but was it faulty intelligence? >> well, you know, it was faulty in the sense that some of it got it wrong. but i don't consider that an intelligence failure because, you know, what happens is here, initially, you had one group that claim responsibility. you had, at the same time, open-source reporting that there were active protests going on. you had people on the ground who said that protests were going on. so the intelligence is conflicting. the professionals, the anists who look at all the streams of intelligence to figure out what

really happened, their conclusion early on was it began as a protest. but then you get more definitive evidence and, in this case, that definitive evidence was the actual video and that was, i think, quite compelling and that showed us that, in fact, there was no protest. >> rose: and did the government in libya tell the government in the united states from the get-go that they thought it was a planned attack? >> you know, i don't recall exactly what the view of the libyan government was on that issue. i do recall that the libyan government was really appalled at the violence and quite devastated that our ambassador was killed and, as the secretary pointed out yesterday, there were tens of thousands of libyans who took to the streets because they loved this man to say this is not us, this is not islam, and i think the point that, in those initial conversations between the secretary where she was trying to still get help and security with the libyan government, they were trying to assure her just

how appalled they were at this loss of life. >> rose: how do you think the republicans on the committee including chairman gadi viewed the hearing so far? >> i think they're gravely disappointed at what happened yesterday. i think they were hoping not by wearing down the is, by cross-examination that they would have more to show, that they would have a sound byte moment that would have played into the presidential campaign or at least demonstrated that the committee had cleaved something because the reality is, after 17 months, they have nothing new to tell us about what actually happened that we didn't know already. so unless they can score something against the secretary, there is not much they can tell those urging the creation of this committee that justifies all the time and expense. >> rose: you're a democrat and politician. secretary has had by the judgment of most political

observers a very good month. the debate and now this performance at the committee hearing. has it seems to me essentially, in your judgment, wrapped up the nomination now? >> well, you know, i think, in this kind of flip environment, you can never say anything was wrapped up until you can see the electric votes on the board, but she is a very strong candidate. she was at the outset. i think she's gotten even stronger after her debate performance and after, frankly, going through 11 hours of grilling and looking very presidential. she demonstrated a pretty comprehensive knowledge not only of our foreign policy but how the state department operates and a great respect for the people who serve overseas. so i think she looked very presidential. i think the members of our committee looked very small in comparison and, so, you have to conclude it was a pretty good month for the secretary. >> rose: thank you very much for joining us, congressman.

we talked to one of the republican members, invited a number of them and hoped to have them on as we have an ongoing conversation not only about this particular thing but also other issues in congress. thank you very much for joining us. >> you bet. >> rose: adam schiff, democrat from california. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: herb alpert is here. he is one of the most successful trumpeters in pop history. his top ten, the lonely bull, launched him and his band into the pop culture stratosphere. three years later released whipped cream and other delight. the album won a grammy of year for the hit song a taste of honey. here's a look at a taste of honey. ♪

>> rose: alpert was also one to have the entertainment industry's shrewdest businessman. his label was one of the most

prosperous artist owned established. he sold it for $5 million. pleased to have him at the table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: it has been a remarkable career. >> a dream. >> rose: was it the lonely bull that -- >> it was the lonely bull that started 1962, that was our first relays. and became the top ten record. i got a letter from a lady in germany about a month after the record was released and it said, dear mr. alpert, thank you for send meg on this vicarious trip to tijuana. i chuckled when i read it and i thought, wow, that music was so visual to her that it took her someplace. that's the music i wanted to make. >> rose: miles davis says you hear three notes and you know if it's herb alpert or not. >> i think that's what we're all looking for is an artist.

it's the sound, you know. you want to find your own voice, and it takes a while. >> rose: when you say the sound, what do you mean? >> well, look, i have a classical background, and when i heard miles and louie armstrong and those guys closing their eyes and playing, that's what i wanted to do. so i was emulating them a while. i could play like harry james, miles, louie armstrong. >> rose: what you wanted was your own sound? >> i didn't know that at the time. i was just looking for something. i heard less paul, mary, the record "how high the moon" and les was layering his guitar many times, i tried that at home. i had two tape machines, i dubbed it back and forth and got the sound and that was the genesis of the tijuana brass sound. >> rose: when you heard it, you knew that was you and what you wanted? >> well, i didn't know that

exactly at the the time. i knew i was on to something that felt good for me and i didn't know that till the lonely bull, the letter from the lady and the follow-up records and letters from the people who liked the music and i started getting my courage up. >> rose: you've done it all. you have been a businessman, a musician, a broadway producer, a painter. >> i still am a painter and a sculptor. >> rose: which one of those defines you the most? >> i think all three. i'm a right-brained guy. mayb95% in the right side of my brain. >> rose: do they feed each other? >> i get that feeling when it happens. you know, you can be sculpting and the piece doesn't really take shape and doesn't feel good and i'm just as anxious until it's resolved and when it's

resolved, it's that great feeling, like playing a solo. you know, there is something about -- i'm intrigued about the mystery of the arts. i think there is an unwritten thing you can't describe, and i like that. >> rose: it's a bit like everybody sees a painting differently because it touches something in them that's unique and different from everybody else. >> yeah. >> rose: same thing with your ear and music, i assume. you all hear it differently. >> well, if you like something, i don't think you hear it with your ears, i think you hear it with your soul. i think god music and art resonates in the soul. it's like standing in front of a jackson pollack painting and if you try to analyze it, it's not going to happen. >> rose: it just happens. you have to feel it, you know. >> rose: is that what you've always told artists? you have to feel it? >> i think that's the main ingredient. unless you're passionate about what you're doing, if you don't believe what you're doing is good, why should anyone else

believe it. >> rose: how famous was this album? >> it was big. it was like 14 platinum -- 14 million platinum records. it was huge and happened kind of in a strange way. >> rose: how was that? i got a call from our record distributor in new orleans. he said, i just heard a song that al hurt turned down. i said what was it like? he said, he played it for me over the phone and i liked it. i said sinned it to me. it was "whipped cream." he sent me the song, i played it four days later. it made some noise michigan partner jerry said let's couch this in an album with food titles. in that album was taste of honey, you know -- >> rose: and the cover became as popular as the music. >> it became iconic.

people love that cover. >> rose: do they bring it to you and have you sign it when you perform? >> all the time. one thing happened -- this sounds like i'm going to make up this story, but it happened. the guy comes to me and says, you know the whipped cream album you did? it's beautiful, man, i love it. i said, what do you think about the album? he said, i haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, i'm going to get to it. (laughter) >> rose: when you hear music today, what do you like? >> honest music. i like artists that are parish navment when you hear it you know they're giving it their all. it's like ray charles. when we heard ray charles, he could sing god bless america, whatever he did, it drills you, goes right into you. >> rose: were you and miles friends? >> i had dinner with miles one night. i didn't understand a word he said, but i loved him.

he was an important figure. >> rose: al hurt turned something down which you took. has there been instances where you turned something down and someone else took it to stratospheric heights? >> people used to come in with master records. they'd play a record that was finished and you had the opportunity to release it if you chose to. one record, 1968, i believe it was, and i didn't like it at all. i thought it was out of tune. there was an original record i heard in 1958 but it was too long. it didn't fit right with me. just didn't feel good. i turned it down. that happened to be louie louie, which was number one eight weeks in a row and every time i heard it i always had the same feeling. >> rose: it was always out overtune when you heard it. >> i go with my instinct. if it feels good, great.

if it doesn't, i'll pass. >> rose: a&m was successful because it was for artistest by artistest? >> it was thinking from the artists' poifer. i recorded for a major company -- i mean a major company -- for about a year and a half and i didn't like the way they treated me. i was a number. you know, when i was recording it was 28524 take one, take two, you know. i went into the playback room, the studio and wanted to hear a little bit more bass on one of the songs i did. i lifted up the bass track and the engineer slapped my hand and said don't ever touch that again. this is a union board and i can get in trouble and don't do that. and i thought, gee, shouldn't you be looking at music from the artist's point of view? you're a music company. i said, if i ever had any chance to have a company, i would certainly approach it differently. >> rose: you once said you don't know what a hit record sounds like but you know what

good music sounds like. >> yeah, it's hard to predict a hit record. in 1965, my partner and i, we released third man theme on the a side and on the b side was a taste of honey. i was playing in seattle, washington, at the edgewater inn. every time i played taste of honey, the people went crazy. it was, like, a focus group. i called my partner and said, jerry, we're on the wrong side. he said, no, man, you can't. it stops in the middle, stops, start, stops, start, it's not a radio record. i said, i'm telling you, turn it over, you know. so he finally did and three months later, it was the breakthrough record. >> rose: the taste of honey was a breakthrough for you? >> well, we had hits before but this was the one that really charged a hit. >> rose: told you to trust your instincts. >> well, i always did trust my instincts, but this was a message from above, you know.

and then when taste of honey hit, we did all the big shows, ed sullivan and dean martin. >> rose: the list i saw for 1966, you were the number one. >> yeah, we sold the most records. >> rose: outsold the beatles. we outsold the beatles in 1966. i only know that -- it's not patting myself on the back, i saw that in the guinness book of records. >> rose: what song was that? a taste of honey. >> rose: a taste of honey. and it was going places. in 1966, we had five records on the top 20, four records -- >> rose: 1966, five in the top 20? >> yeah, and four albums in the top 10. it was crazy. >> rose: you also knew and worked with sam cooke. >> loved sam cooke, taught me a lot. >> rose: what did he teach

you? >> he have had a way about him. very elegant and musical. he gam came in and showed me his notebook once. i was looking at the lyrics he would write down and the set of lyrics looked really corny to me. the cokes are in the icebox, the popcorn's on the table, let's have a party -- you know, i was thinking, wow. i said, what does it sound like? he picked up his guitar and it was like magic. it was, like, his intent, the meldy was beautiful, you know -- the melody was beautiful and everything in the right place and i was thinking, man, it's all about intent. >> rose: ant emotion, wasn't it? >> absolutely. >> rose: he had emotion, he understood emotion. he knew you had to connect on an emotional level. >> it was real stuff and the major record he had was "you send me," with the whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, he did that. so the follow-up record, i was in the studio watching him and

the owner of the company had a chart and was listening to the playback and he kind of knew music in a strange way -- i'm talking about the owner of the company -- he said, sam, come here, do me a favor, bar 82 put in a whoa-whoa here and there. different spots he wanted sam to put in a whoa-whoa because of the first record. sam looked at him and said, jack, you just can't put in a whoa-whoa whenever you want to, man, you've got to feel it. that was sam. he taught me a he ca heck of a . >> rose: gillespie said of being a musician, the closer you get the farther it looks. what does that mean? >> you never get to the place on your own instrument you're satisfied, that's the beauty of it. >> rose: the closer you goat perfection in your own mind, the farther away it seems. >> i think so. >> rose: the more you know,

the more you have to know. the more you know, the more you realize you don't know much. >> that's for sure, but on an instrument, it's always different because there are so many facets of playing an instrument right. >> rose: you scramble it up on your own tour with your wife. you mix it up? >> yeah. >> rose: most of it all jazz? it's all jazz. it's all songs we're going to play but never played the same way twice. that's what i love, though. i'm basically a jazz musician and i brought that sensibility to the tijuana brass. i never ever practiced the songs i recorded, believe it or not. one time i did. sorrzorba the greek i practiced. but i just have the experience of the moment. to me, that's what's so

seductive ant painting and sculpting and making music. i'm sure you feel it as well. when you do something you're passionate about, you're in the exact moment of your life and that's what hooked me. >> rose: it's a feeling like nothing else. >> yeah. >> rose: it's almost like being, as they say in sports, in the zone. >> well, you're in the zone and when you're not in the zone you might be thinking about tomorrow or yesterday. >> rose: but when you're in the zone, it just flows. >> it's the place. i tell kids, i say, please, unless you're passionate about being a musician or an artist or a poet, don't do it. while you're sleeping, other people are practicing. >> rose: exactly. it's true. it's really true. is music missing something that it had when you were at your best? >> it's hard to say because there are a lot of great artists out there and they don't have the same opportunities because radio is a little stingy with

what they're willing to play. if it has a guitar in it, i can't play it, if it has -- you know, if you know how to get around the internet and you get lucky, but it's pretty astounding, charlie. i mean, there are records like bruno mars, his last record, are you sitting. one billion people have watched youtube. >> rose: one billion. one billion. >> rose: you like those numbers? >> wouldn't everyone like to have that number? i would like testify a tent -- d like to have a tenth of that number. >> rose: this is a clip of you and the tijuana brass playing "spanish flea." ♪ ♪ ♪

>> rose: we were just saying as we were watching this, herb asked me who i liked in jazz music and one of the people is winston. >> i love everything about him. he's a fantastic musician and human being supreme. i played with louie armstrong once, i interviewed him, i was the moderator and i played with him, and i couldn't describe -- he was the only musician i have met so far that his personality came right through the horn. >> rose: roll tape. ♪ she makes that old magnolia

tree ♪ ♪ that's just the mention of her name ♪ name ♪ ♪ who brought the cakewalk back into style ♪ ♪ who made the weeping willow tree smile ♪

>> let me tell you something. i said, louie, people sau call u satchmo, what do your friends call you? he said, my friends call me irving! (laughter) >> rose: this is marsalis. you're trying to play jazz with other people, you're listening, inventing as it goes on, you're adjusting to go with them and they're doing it with you. it's like a dance, like you're finding each other and it's very fundamental and basic but also complicated. >> rose: it's true. you've got to let it happen. >> rose: i have often believed -- and jazz is a perfect example -- the more you know, the better you are, the more schooled you are, the more spontaneous, the more you can go off because you know how to come back.

>> absolutely. yeah. all the great musicians -- stan goetz was a dear friend of mine who said i'm not sure where i'm going but i know where i'm going to end up. so it's always he never played a note he wasn't able to come out. but you have to trust your instinct. you have to let it go. if you try to be too cute with it and try to play for somebody else and see if you can do something that someone else is going to like, it's not going to work. >> rose: you know, there is also a concept in sports, sometimes you have to let the game come to you. in music, sometimes you have to let it come to you. >> i think so. if you try too hard to be hip, you're going to be corny. >> rose: just be authentic and let it come to you. >> i think to be authentic is the goal. it doesn't have to be perfect. you know, perfection is not there. we all loved bill billie holida.

it's all a feel. >> rose: you released an album on september 25th called "come fly with me." what's in it. >> well, "come fly with me" is the title song. i guess we all know that song from frank sinatra. >> rose: right. i wanted to do it and transport us into another little spot. i used steel drums on it, pans are what they're called, and takes us to the caribbean. i always loved that melody. blue skies -- >> rose: music you love. i only play music i love. i can't play music i don't love. i can only play music that feels right. >> rose: how often do you paint? >> everyday. >> rose: every day? yeah, i think that's one of the problems i'm having as an artist is you hear my name and say, hey, he has some nice paintings, he's probably a sunday painter.

>> rose: every day, you have to do it? you need to? >> for my own health. >> rose: for your own sanity, that's what i mean. >> yeah. >> rose: you get up in the morning, have a cup of coffee and -- >> i'm up 6:30, 6:00, 630 and i paint and sculpt. in the kitchen, my wife is not crazy about this, but i do these wax miniature things with a blow torch and that's where i create the idea and go to the studio. >> rose: some of the sculptures at the field museum? >> yeah, nine sculptures at the field museum right out in front. it's bronze totems from 13 feet to 17 and a half feet tall. it looks really good, and there is a huge win inside. i love doing it. that's just me. >> rose: thank you for coming. thank you so much, charlie. >> rose: herb alpert. thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us

online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org the followi

production was produced in high definition. ♪ ♪ ♪ every single bite needed to be -- >> twinkies are in there! >> wow! >> it's like a great, big hug in the cold city. >> that food is about as spicy as i can handle and my parents put chili powder in my baby food. >> i have french fried bits all over the table. just a lot of