captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc >> ifill: good evening. i'm gwen ifill. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff . >> ifill: on the newshour tonight: we're on the ground in france with the latest. >> reporter: i'm malcolm brabant. gunfire and explosions in paris, this time in a police raid targeting the mastermind of the attacks, once believed to be in syria. >> sreenivasan: and i'm hari sreenivasan. where the attacks in paris have added fuel to an already heated debate about europe's open borders. >> woodruff: and u.s. lawmakers are briefed on threats here at home. >> ifill: plus, privacy versus security in the digital age. should the government be able to access data on apps if terrorists use them to communicate? >> woodruff: all that and more on tonight's pbs newshour.

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>> and with the ongoing support of these institutions >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> ifill: the hunt for culprits in the paris attack triggered a seven-hour gun battle today. but multiple explosions, and 5,000 rounds fired, there was no official confirmation that the accused leader of the attacks had been killed. we begin our coverage with malcolm brabant, in paris. >> reporter: the terrible staccato of gunfire echoed across the saint denis neighborhood overnight, as police fought a furious battle with suspects holed up in a third floor apartment. french authorities say police stormed the building to disrupt

an imminent terrorist attack. a woman in the apartment detonated a suicide vest, killing only herself. a man was killed in the fusillade of bullets. seven other men and a woman were arrested. mobile phone video shot by witnesses showed unidentified men being hustled away. the target was the alleged ring-leader of the paris plot: abdelhamid abaaoud, seen here in an undated islamic state social media video. paris prosecutor francois molins spoke some hours after the raid's end. >> ( translated ): we have done a lot of work which has allowed us to obtain, through telephony, surveillance and witness statements, elements that could allow us to think that abaaoud might be in a conspirators' apartment in saint denis. >> reporter: it was earlier thought that abaaoud was in after the gunfight, french military lined the streets, and police frisked passersby, as witnesses told of enduring hours of mayhem. >> it was like-- war.

it was very, very noisy, what i heard. after-- i understand that it was guns, and bombs. >> ( translated ): i spoke to the emergency service, they said the police were on site and not to worry. so i thought fine. but then there was machine gun fire for half an hour. machine guns in town! of course you are going to find that scary. >> reporter: another witness wished to remain anonymous: >> ( translated ): there was lots of gunfire. there was a policewoman who got injured. other police officers were also wounded. there's a pool of blood over there. i don't know who was the victim. >> reporter: saint denis, a relatively poor district just north of the paris beltway, is now effectively under military occupation. it has a large muslim population among its 120,000 residents and is something of a melting pot. but as one local man said today, that mixing goes only so far for some. >> ( translated ): our young

people frankly feel quite separate-- excluded from society. our young people have no professional training. our young people, they only have cigarettes, joints, and all manner of mind-altering drugs. >> reporter: but nacho petit collot, a human rights activist who lives in saint denis, is keen to emphasize that turning to extreme islam is not a choice for the majority of young residents. >> some people are fragilized mentally, uh some people can be, you know, turned, brainwashed for whatever reasons, that make radicalization one exit. but let's not stigmatize st. denis or any other neighborhood, saying that this is the exit. >> reporter: although two terrorists are dead, and more are in custody, there's no sense of complacency on the streets of paris tonight. and the key question tonight remains: where is saleh abdel slam, one of three brothers involved in the paris attacks, who has so far evaded all attempts to capture him. french authorities declared a

state of emergency following the attacks, during which time security forces have conducted over 400 raids, making dozens of arrests. france's parliament will vote later this week on an extension of that emergency for a further three months. today, president francois hollande said the grief and anger caused by the attacks must translate into action: >> ( translated ): the emotion is immense, the anger is too. each of us is experiencing an intense feeling of compassion for the victims of the attacks, and at the same time, a demand for action, in order to neutralize those who committed these crimes. >> reporter: and in germany, where a bomb scare at a soccer match last night in hannover shook the country, chancellor angela merkel said angela merkel said determination must be shown in the face of terrorism. she'd been scheduled to attend the game between germany and the netherlands. >> ( translated ): this coward attack was nothing else than an attack on our freedom. and there can only be one answer to it, and that is determination. and that is why germany supports

france in order to fight against terrorist and its backers. >> reporter: meanwhile, french jets again hit islamic state targets in syria today, while the military announced that the aircraft carrier "charles degaulle" left port steaming toward the region to reinforce their operations. back in paris, president hollande said the attacks must compel international unity to take on the islamic state. >> ( translated ): i know very well that every country does not have the same interests, nor the same ideas, nor necessarily the same allies. but what's at stake here is putting an end to, destroying, an army that threatens the entire world. >> reporter: but for now, islamic state militants show no signs of giving way. instead, their online magazine carried a photo today, purporting to show the bomb, housed in a soft drink can, that brought down a russian jet over egypt's sinai peninsula in late october. the russians said yesterday they

had determined that a bomb had indeed downed the plane, and they continued a heavy bombardment in syria today, including strikes at the islamic state. >> ifill: and hari and malcolm join me now. malcolm, you spent the day in saint-denis. tell us what the conditions are like in that neighborhood, whatever you can tell bus that neighborhood. >> what was most striking, gwen, was the fact that this place really did look like a city in war. in europe, you're used to seeing police around the place but you're not used to seeing soldiers out on the streets, and this place really was under military control today. and a colleague of mine said it was like belfast in the 1980s. it was much more serious. the british were not facing trysts like this prepared to dive and you would not have 5,000 round being fired. the atmosphere in the place was really quite tense indeed. most people were staying off the streets because they were so scared about what was happening. >> ifill: one of the questions which often comes up about

immigration in paris or europe in general there hasn't been that much assimilation, that a the loof people have gathered in their own neighborhoods. is that what saint-denis represents? >> very much so. it is part of segregated paris. and one of the things that president hollande has been trying to say today is that that france really wants to be generous to people coming in, and it will honor its commitment to allow 30,000 syrians to come in. but the problem that he's going to have is trying to assimilate these people. these kinds of places like saint-denis and molenbeek in brussels where there was a shoot-out the other day, there are lots of these places all around europe where immigrants have garthed where they feel disenfranchised and don't have the same opportunities. more refugees are coming in and they perhaps are going toned up even worse off than those people who are already there. so the problem that europe has is trying to be generous, but at the same time, it must make sure that there is integration, no segregation, and that there are

opportunities for these people and that's really difficult. especially as the economies of these countries are getting worse. >> ifill: hari, you have now been on the ground several days in paris and i wonder whether this feels more like a police operation or more like war-time footing. what is the city feeling likes these days. >> even today, when we were at different places that usually you'd see flocks of tourists with their cameras, what we saw were people in military fatigues carrying machine guns, and what's strange is the parisians just going about their daily lives as best they can have almost gotten used to it. i mean, this is what we've really seen in the last three or four days. they've gotten used to the sirenz blaring at all hours of the night. they've gotten used to the military presence. and it's a different feel. this is a world-class city, a place where so many people come to vacation and holiday. but maybe this isn't the best place to be if that's the environment that you're going to be in where you're constantly feeling surveilled. >> ifill: too soon to say that

things have returned to normalcy i guess. >> yeah, yeah. also, the hard part is it's almost a cycle of suspicion, right. now, there are these immigrants or there are perhaps refugees that are anything to get a second look or a third look, not just from the police but other people that are normal parisians and perhaps that's the-- that's the beginning of their feeling where, wow, maybe i'm a second-class citizen here. and that just opens up them to, you know, recruiting by isis. >> ifill: you guys have been doing great work. we will return to hari and his reporting on how the paris attacks are change attitudes about europe's open borders after the news summary. >> woodruff: in the day's other news, the white house warned this evening that president obama will veto a house republican bill to increase screening of refugees. house speaker paul ryan announced today that republicans will call for admitting syrian and iraqi refugees only if u.s. officials certify they are not a security threat. ryan said a vote could come tomorrow on what he called common-sense precautions.

>> people understand the plight of those fleeing the middle east but they also need assurances for the safety of this country. we are a compassionate nation. we always have been and always will be. but we also must remember that our first priority is to protect the american people. >> ifill: some republican presidential candidates have said christian refugees should be given preference over muslims. at a summit in the philippines today, president obama said such proposals are rooted in hysteria and political posturing. >> we are not well-served when, in response to a terrorist attack, we descend into fear and panic. when individuals say that we should have a religious test and that only christians -- proven christians -- should be

admitted, that's offensive and contrary to american values. >> ifill: republican presidential candidate ted cruz is among those who have said christian refugees should be given special immigration preference. he challenged the president today to debate him on the issue. meanwhile, a syrian family was diverted to connecticut today instead of going to indiana as planned. resettlement groups cited the indiana governor's move to stop refugees from seeking new homes in the hoosier state. >> woodruff: chinese president xi jinping today reassured world leaders that china's economy remains strong. the country's growth rate hit a six-year low last quarter, but it was still running at an annual pace of 6.8%. today, at the asia-pacific gathering in manila, xi promised his government will keep growth on track. >> ( translated ): overall, the enduring, positive trend of china's economic development has not changed. the characteristics of the

economy being resilient, full of potential, with ample room for maneuvering have not changed. the fundamentals and conditions supporting the continuing growth of the chinese economy have not changed. >> woodruff: xi did not mention territorial disputes in the south china sea, but president obama called for beijing to stop building man-made islands. >> ifill: back in this country, cleanup is underway in washington state, after a deadly storm passed through last night, killing three people. winds that topped 100 miles-an- hour brought down trees around spokane and elsewhere, while heavy rain triggered flooding. in all, about 350,000 homes and businesses lost power. utilities said it could take days to be restored. >> woodruff: authorities in minneapolis today identified two officers involved in the fatal shooting of an unarmed black man, jamal clark. sunday's incident triggered demonstrations, and today,

police took down protesters' tents near a precinct station. the activists insisted they won't leave until video of the killing is released. investigators say clark fought with officers mark ringgenberg and dustin schwarz after a domestic assault. his family disputed that account today. >> despite what you've heard, every allegation without evidence is not the truth. everything you hear is not the truth. everything that seems is not always what it seems. my brother was a decent person. the heart that he had, i wish some of you would have half of it. everything that's happened to him, he did not deserve. >> woodruff: witnesses have said clark was handcuffed when he was shot. police initially denied that, but now say they're still trying to determine exactly what happened. >> ifill: some 2,000 workers at seven major airports in the eastern u.s. are set to go on strike tonight. plane cleaners, baggage handlers and other employees are protesting over wages and their right to unionize.

among the targets: new york's john f. kennedy and laguardia airports, chicago's o'hare international, and boston's logan international, among others. >> woodruff: and this was the best day on wall street in a month, fueled by corporate deals and hopes for improving growth. the dow jones industrial average gained 247 points to close at 17,737. the nasdaq rose 89 points, and the s&p 500 added 33. >> ifill: still to come on the newshour: paris, congress and the security debate. could government access to encrypted social media messages thwart terrorism? europe's open border policy under threat. and much more. >> woodruff: on capitol hill, many lawmakers have spent the past two days behind closed

doors, in briefings on the paris attacks and the potential threat to the u.s. to discuss that threat, we are joined now by two leading members of congress, both from california. representative ed royce is the chairman of the house foreign affairs committee. and representative adam schiff is the ranking democrat on the house select committee on intelligence. gentlemen, we welcome you both. chairman royce, let me begin with you. what have you learned from these briefings on the capability, the motivation of isis that you weren't aware of before and that you can share with the public? >> well, i think that the biggest surprise is just the magnitude of the attacks here. we've seen over 900 casualties as a result of these isis attacks, and what we're learning also is the ability of the isis organization to have used the safe haven that they have in their caliphate in order to train with new methodology of

bomb making for them, and also with automatic weapons. and you see the result of that, on the streets of paris, for example. but you also see something else, the document forgery of syrian passports now has emerged as a new issue, and we've seen even a case today with false syrian passports used in latin america. we saw the case in greece where one of the isis terrorists had used a false passport. you pay $2,000 today, you get a passporthat's so good that it's often hard for e.u. authorities even to determine whether it's false or real. so this is a security challenge for europe as we see. and lastly, i would just sabre the ability once in europe, once you've got a visa waver for those in europe that may have gone to fight with isis and they come back to europe, they now have that visa waiver they can take advantage of to come, for example, here to the united

states. these are all concerns. >> woodruff: that's a lot of information to process. congressman schiff, as a member of the intelligence committee, does that track with what you're learning, or is there more? >> well, it does. i think what we have seen graphically in the last few weeks is something we've been watching in the intelligence community for the last several months, and that is isis originally focused on building its caliphate, on holding its ground. it has now opened, really, a second front and that is trying on attack in the west. we have seen a number of plots, largely disrupted, in europe, but only recently to see the horrific attacks in paris, the bombing of this russian plane, the bombing in beirut, clearly isis is now moving to export its violence around the world. and in that respect, adopting many of the techniques of al qaeda. it has really eclipsed al qaeda as the preement terrorist threat we face now. >> woodruff: well, given all this, chairman royce, just how vulnerable is the united states? we just heard a short time ago

the president's adviser on national security, lisa monaco, said that the administration believes right now there's no credible threat to the united states. how do you see that? >> well, the good news, of course, is that since 9/11, we have had 12 attempts for attacks in new york. all of them have been thwarted. so we can credit our capabilities with that. but, of course, we have an additional challenge here, and that is that isis has now learned how to use encryption for their communication. in the past we had the capability at times to intercept these messages. now, we'll learn more about the attacks in paris. it is possible that isis used encryption in order to plan and carry out those attacks in order to keep parisian and french authorities from using the usual methodology to discover those attacks in progress. and so, if that is indeed the

case, then we are going to be more vulnerable than we would have been in the past. >> woodruff: congressman schiff, what does it say, then, if this is a new capability on the part of isis, that the u.s. has to be prepared to deal, whether it's encryption or any other aspect of this new ability that they have? >> i think it means a few things. in the near term what we're most concerned about is not a paris-style attack but homegrown radicals being inspired by what they see in paris to lash out here in the united states. isis, i think, doesn't currentl have the capability to reach us. we're a harder target to get to than europe. we have far fewer people who have left the united states to join the fight and have returned. but over the long term, if isis is able to continue holding ground in iraq and syria, if they're continuing to allow the time, the space, and devote the resources to plotting against us, we are vulnerable to a

paris-style attack, and the challenges as the chairman pointed out in dealing with these new encrypted technologies also add to the burdens of trying to thwart this. i think it underscores one point, judiy, and that is even with the best of intelligence, you are not going to be able to stop a determined enemy that is adapting to what you're doing if they have that time and space to plot against you. so we're going to have to change the dime oict battlefield in iraq and syria, i believe, to really seriously degrade this threat to us. >> woodruff: well, picking up on what the u.s. may have to do on the battlefield, chairman royce, i mean, is there a clear path ahead for the united states to pursue when it comes to confronting isis in iraq and syria? >> i think there is. i think that in terms of most of the fighting on the ground, you have a battle going on along a 650-mile front today. it is between kurdishing

peshmerga forces and some u.a.e. forces fighting against isis. they do not currently have at their diposal the type of weaponry they need. they don't have the artillery and the long-range mortars, the anti-attention weapons. we have an opportunity to go around baghdad that doesn't want us necessarily to arm the kurds but to give them that weaponry to make those 180,000 soldiers-- 30% of them women, by the way-- more effective in that fight. i think we should do that. i think we should also work more closely with the sunni tribes in the area that are fighting isis. and lastly, i think we should give them a closer air support, more in the way of airpower used in conjunction with kurdish forces that would receive more weaponry, to carry out the war on the ground and begin to roll isis back. because when it's perceived that isis is losing territory, that's when it's harder for them to

recruit on the internet and tell people that they're invincible. >> woodruff: so, congressman schiff, are those the kind of things that you oong first of all, would you support those kind of measures? and do you think there could be bipartisan support for the administration to do what we just heard? >> i certainly support providing greater material support to the kurds, and if the iraqi government isn't willing to make that happen sufficiently to provide direct support for the kurds. support the efforts of the kurdish allies in syria. they have been among the most effective fighting forces. this is a challenge because both of those action would alienate, to some degree, the iraqi government, as well as the turkish government. but nonetheless, these are the people fighting on the ground and we need to support them. you know, i will say this, also, though, i don't think merely supplying the kurds or adding to the aerial sorties or introduction of small numbers of operators will change the dynamic on the ground aappreciatably. the kurds aren't going to be able to go into large

non-kurdish areas. and i think that ultimately means we're going to have to explore some things we haven't wanted to, such as the establishment of a buffer zone or safe zone, explore with the turks and jordanians whether they're willing to put their people on the ground to police that zone if we're willing to protect it from the air. that, i think, would have a possibility of changing the dynamic. and finally, at the end of the day, the iraqi government is going to have to allow sunnis to be incorporated into the government and into the armed forces. they're going to have to give them an alternative to isis, or this problem is just going to pursift no matter what we do. >> and i'll add that i agree with my colleague on the concept of that safe zone. i think it is absolutely essential that it be established along that border, and i think it will give us a great advantage in terms of pushing back isis. >> woodruff: chairman ed royce and representative adam schiff, we thank you both. >> thank you. >> thank you.

>> ifill: the hundreds of thousands of refugees entering europe have made headlines for months. but in the wake of the paris attacks, there are new questions about how they have been able to make their journey. again, to hari sreenivasan in paris. >> sreenivasan: the question was already tearing at the fabric of europe: how to deal with hundreds of thousands of people, many fleeing from syria. now, the paris attacks -- claimed by the islamic state -- have some politicians demanding change. >> i've been saying for months that these refugees have been infiltrated, i was always told that all the checks had been made and that you know it was totally safe, but i was sure something like that would happen. >> sreenivasan: we met senator joelle garriaud maylam, along the champs elysee. among her official roles, she is on france's defense committee.

>> i know many people who've come from belgium, or you know, spain, who haven't had the slightest control, and who know very well that there's weapons trafficking, which is extremely dangerous. >> sreenivasan: that kind of sentiment is increasingly putting refugees on the defensive. >> they need to show to people that this is the islam. this is not islam, they are not islam and they don't know god, never, believe me. god didn't say in islam to kill people. that's not islam, not our islam. >> sreenivasan: top european and u.n. officials support that view, warning that public fury against the islamic state-- or "da'esh" in arabic-- should not be mis-directed. >> we cannot blame the refugees. refugees are the first victims of terror. i think that the strategy of daesh is exactly to create an environment of fear, to make european countries close their borders to syrian refugees and also to divide our societies. >> we cannot blame the refugees for this, because they are actually fleeing away from terrorism.

>> sreenivasan: for his part, french president francois hollande said today his country will stick with a plan to take in 30,000 refugees over the next two years. >> ( translated ): however, our duty of showing humanity in regards to refugees goes hand in hand with the protection duty of all french people. >> sreenivasan: france must also check before people get inside the european territory and then on french soil, that there are no risks for our country. >> sreenivasan: but other european leaders take much harder stances. hungarian prime minister viktor orban had erected border fences and condemned the flow of muslim migrants-- even before paris. and now: >> ( translated ): it has been proven that the terrorists, knowingly and in a well-organized manner, use the mass migration to blend in among the masses of people who have left their homes in the hope of a better life. we don't think that everyone who comes from there is a terrorist, >> sreenivasan: for the past 20 years, people have been able to move freely across 26 countries

through what's known as the schengen agreement. after friday night's attacks, that very idea of an open europe is under threat. is this the end of schengen as we know it? >> probably, very likely, it's the end probably of a number of things, including the way the e.u. operates and e.h.-- the way the e.u. operates and the way the e.u. sees itself and its future. >> sreenivasan: francois gere is executive director of the french strategic analysis institute, he studies conflicts and terrorism. gere is sympathetic to the plight of the migrants but to him the sheer numbers pose a problem. >> if on for instance 1,000 migrants you have 0.1 terrorists, well it's enough to have-- to create a cell for any kind of aggression.

>> sreenivasan: those likely to feel any changes to border controls first are frequent travelers like stephan viallet whom we met at the gare du norde train station on his weekly trip to belgium without the need for a passport. >> we're at a point where we need to do something that's radically different from what we currently experience, otherwise we can't control and in the case of events like these ones, we're completely lost. >> sreenivasan: the attacks, have forced some travelers to let the scales tip toward security. >> we lose a lot of the peace of liberty but we win maybe another liberty, another freedom, you see what i mean? >> sreenivasan: others are hesitant. >> ( translated ): the point is we should not give up our rights that we fought for, the liberty of moving. >> sreenivasan: and even more fuel in the debate came just today, in turkey. authorities detained eight people at istanbul's main airport, and said they were

suspected islamic state militants, planning to make their way to germany, posing as refugees. >> ifill: for more on growing calls to restrict the unprecedented migration flowing into europe and beyond, we turn to former british foreign secretary david miliband, who is now president and ceo of the international rescue committee. and andras simonyi. he was hungary's ambassador to the united states and is now a professor at the school of advanced international studies at johns hopkins university. mr. miliband, have the attacks in paris and beirut changed everything? >> i think they have brought a new level of urgency and clarity to the challenges facing not just western politicians but actually politicians around the globe. the european refugee crisis has crept up on the european union over the last three or four years when the attention was focused ofocused on the euro crd

the russian intervention in ukraine. the refugee crisis is now center stage and it's center stage for all the wrong reasons and not just the horrific bombings in beirut, the appalling attacks in france, but, obviously, the ongoing tragedy inside syria itself. i think the important thing is that they change some things. the appalling attacks do need to bring a new level of rigor, clarity, and consistency to the way in which the political settlement is sa sought in syri. they do need to bring a new level of humanity to the very, very difficult situation faced by the refugees in neighboring states, four or five million of them. of course, they need to bring increased coordination on the security front, across europe and with u.s. has to be said the u.s. situation is dramatically different from that in europe. >> ambassador simonyi, hungary has taken a hard line on this idea of migration, and i wonder whether you see any connection between that debate and the

debate we have seen about who is behind these bombings in paris, especially. >> of course, these issues are connected. there are three things one is the refugee crisis, and homegrown terrorism. these are a very, very dangerous mix very explosive mix. i do not agree with the hungarian government's line that a total isolation, building a barbed wire around hungary, not letting in any refugees without discrimination is going to do the trick. but one thing-- let me get back to the question that you asked mr. miliband. i do think it has changed something. there is now a greater sense of urgency in europe to figure this out and figure it out together. >> ifill: well, is urgency a

good thing, mr. miliband? >> the danger of urgency, obviously, is it leads to panic. the issue of the fake, now clearly fake syrian passport that became a story over the weekend, i'm afraid it's the sad truth that the lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boos boots on. and i think the ambassador is right to say that there is real urgency now about three things. first of all, the issue of how europe is going to support the neighboring states of syria in coping with the refugee load. secondly, how europe is going to process the five, six, even 700,000 refugees who have arrived in europe over the last year or so. many of them are now in germ me, most of them now in germany. and thirdly, obviously, the acute security challenge relating to the new evidence that isis is willing to strike outside the middle east. until now, the consensus opinion

among academics has been that isis was focused on building the so-called caliphate within the middle east. now it's clear that isis is ready to strike beyond those boundaries and that puts an absolute premium on the security effort in respect of the homegrown problem that the ambassador has put his finger on. >> ifill: but, mr. ambassador, i want to ask you about the conflation question, the dangers of that. obviously, urgency, when there is a crisis is not necessarily a bad thing, but what should be done? should it be the e.u.? should it be the u.n.? should it be vienna. >> when i say "urgency" definitely no panic. there are things we have to do immediately and then there are things we have to fix long term. interestingly enough, yesterday i came across an interview-- a report, that was done about molenbeek, the place where the terrorists came from in prulses, '87, which was almost 30 years

ago, which suggested if they don't give these people a chance to integrate into society, if they don't give them jobs, if they don't give them opportunities, this is going to be an explosive, and we will pay a huge price. now, there is a-- some introspection that we have to go through. but i truly believe that-- you know, i believe if europe can get out of this-- i call it a mess-- it will get out of it stronger. definitely, disintegrating and weakening the european union is not a response. let me also add that i am-- i truly believe this has to be a transatlantic issue, and the united states and europe needs to cooperate very, very closely to find a way out of this. >> ifill: david miliband, i'm sure you're keeping track, a mild way of saying, reluctance,

the harsher way of saying backlash in the united states of the idea of accepting additional refugees. is freedom compatible with security in moments like this? >> i think not only is freedom compat wibl security, but effective refugee resettlement is founded on effective security. the u.s. has a really excellent record in maintaining the security of vetting process and respect of refugees. the extensive nature of the security vetting process is one of the explanations for the fact that only 2,200 syrians have been allowed into this country over the last four years. it's a very, very rigorous security vetting process, and one of the dangers of the current debate in the u.s. is the facts get lost, and the facts are 12 to 15 u.s. government agencies, including the intelligence agencies, spend 18 to 24 months vetting all the refugees who are put forward for reslem into the u.s., and i think it's very important to maintain the principle that

refugee resettlement is an american success story that should be built on, certainly not something that should be built up. >> ifill: mr. ambassador, is there any such thing as enough vetting in cases like that? >> don't count on 100%, foolproof vetting. that's not going to work. but i totally agree with mr. miliband, if we allow these events to result in us giving up our ideals, our principles-- which includes, of course, welcoming refugees who are really, really in trouble, running from war zones-- then we are giving up more than just-- just the refugees. then we're giving up what our societies are supposed to be about. >> ifill: dave miliband, and andras simonyi, former ambassador to the u.s. from hungary, thank you both very much. >> thank you.

>> woodruff: since the attacks, there's been lots of concern in washington and other world capitals over fears of how terrorists can communicate by "going dark," namely using an array of technologies to hide from law enforcement before and after attacks. in the aftermath of the paris attacks, investigators are still hunting for answers to how the terrorists communicated with each other and eluded surveillance. but their eyes are on the now ubiquitous cell phone-- which can send coded information using free, readily available technologies that defy cracking by intelligence agencies and even the companies that created them. in washington yesterday, the chairman of the senate intelligence committee, republican richard burr, said that very technology was probably at play in paris.

globally we need to begin the debate on what we do with encrypted networks because it makes us blind to communications of potential adversaries. >> woodruff: it's called end-to-end encryption-- meaning data gets encrypted, or locked away with special codes-- on one device and is only decrypted when it reaches another. popular applications like "whatsapp", apple's "i-message", "threema" and "telegram" all operate this way. some of the encrypted apps, like "d-strux," also employ technology that makes messages disappear after they're delivered, leaving no trace. terrorists conceal their work using other sites like justpaste. it is one place the islamic state group posts messages and claims of responsibility without having to register. the "tor" browser bounces communications around a

distributed network of relays run by volunteers, hiding both the user's activity and location. terrorist groups have even created their own encrypted software, specifically to evade detection by the national security agency. c.i.a. director john brennan today warned that the digital world respects no sovereign borders. >> you can move things around the world at the speed of light, and hop around so many countries, and unless there's going to be some kind of international understanding about what is appropriate and acceptable within that digital domain, we're going to face a world of hurt in the future. >> woodruff: the tech industry is against giving up encrypted or "backdoor" information. in october, the obama administration backed down from its earlier request for access, appearing to accept the argument this would simultaneously open the door to hackers, cyber-

criminals and terrorists. >> woodruff: let's break down some of the questions about whether more government access would help fight terrorists. stewart baker was the assistant secretary of homeland security during the george w. bush administration and general counsel at the national security agency during the 1990s. and kate martin closely watches these issues as a senior fellow at the center for american progress. welcome back to the program. stewart baker to you, first. is there any doubt in your mind that we now know isis has capability to encrypt that we didn't know they had before? we had congressman ed royce on just a few minutes ago on the program, chairman of the house foreign affairs committee, and he declared that. >> so there's no doubt that they have the ability to encrypt in ways that we can't break into. whether they have used that in this particular attack is not clear. but the fact is we all do. any of us could download an yap

and have more or less perfect encryption today. >> woodruff: you're saying there is new technology they have that's-- >> nothing indication that there's some special new encryption technology that they're using. many of the things that are being complained about by the senators are tools that have been developed and commercialized over the last several years. >> woodruff: so, kate martin, how do you see their capability after the paris attacks? >> well, i don't know that we know anything about their capabilities with regard to using encryption in the paris attacks. what we know is that the french intelligence services had apparently identified the ringleader as a terrorist before the attacks. and even when people use encryption, they can't hide the metadata which shows who they're

communicating with. so the associates of that ringleader were knowable to the french intelligence service. >> woodruff: already. >> already. and so one wonders, you know, we're for law enforcement access to information, including encrypted information, when it has a warrant in the united states. but one has to wonder why all of this talk about encryption when there's no indication that it was the problem in paris attack? >> the problem here is that even with a warrant, the f.b.i. would not be able to get access to the communications. if they're encrypted, no warrant will get you in. and that's the source of many of the objections we've heard from jim comby and others. they feel we have a social contract that if we have a warrant, we can see the material. now that contract's been broken by this new technology. >> woodruff: as we understand it, the administration backed off on its urgent request that

the technology provide a backdoor to this technology that gives-- >> that's right. >> woodruff: i don't think anyone argues it has the potential to give terroristaise tool that they don't now have. >> well, but, the tool is a limited tool. it's a powerful tool. but it doesn't hide who they are communicating with. and on the other side, whatever the u.s. government says or requires of u.s. companies is going to do nothing to stop the availability of encryption that's developed overseas. >> i think you've said that twice now. i just don't think it's true. encryption used to provide tor, which was one of the technologies that was discussed here, also allows to you anon myself who you're talking to. you can't tell who is sending the message to this person because it's run through several different encrypted nodes, when it it comes out it's not tied to

the person who sent it. now it's unreadable and untraceable. >> woodruff: stewart baker, let me stay with you, then. what should the government capacity be? >> thi this is a very hard socil problem. my sense is that in the u.s. this is going to be a significant debate. how much privacy do expweept how much in the way of terrorist communications are we willing to tolerate? i don't think that debate is going to be anywhere near as difficult in the rest of the world. we saw one of our closest allies, the u.k., come close to requiring access. the french are likely to respond to this by saying, "it's those american companies who made us less safe." and i predict they'll start regulating. >> well, i hope that before they turn all their attention to "oh, we need more surveillance, or we need to stop commercially available encryption," which i think is probably impossible to do, that hard look at why did the french fail to

prevent or were they-- was it impossible to prevent that attack? and come up with an understanding of what the problem was before talking about solutions that aren't related to the-- what seems to have been the problem. >> woodruff: skews me, for toda, the chairman of the f.c.c. has said it's time for the government to look at strengthening the wiretap laws. he talked about the use of the game playstation 4 and said we've got to look at changing the law to update our able to deal with this emerging threat. >> well, it is interesting that back in the 90s, the government was faced with digital technology for telephones, cutting off our access to wiretaps, and it said we're going to regulate everybody who provides telephone service, even the new cell phone providers. they've ended that to voice over internet communications. and it sounds as though he's at least exploring the idea that other tools that allow requirem.

>> woodruff: and you think that's a good idea? >> well, it's very hard to actually enforce those rules against people who are just releasing apps because they could be anywhere in the world. it's a major regulatory dhoj actually make that work. >> it doesn't seem workable. and it seems a diversion and i'm afraid it's a diversion from what should we really do and what can we really do to stop the next attack like the one that happened in paris? >> woodruff: you mean in the non-surveillance arena? >> oh, no, surveillance is one tool that's very important, and it's just not true that it's totally going dark. it's been made a little bit more difficult, but the n.s.a., the f.b.i., and the french intelligence have massive numbers of ways to conduct surveillance. and it's also not true that of,aise understand it, that the computer scientists are pretty cleerclear that metadata is stil

available to show a person's associates and that there's no way to hide all of that in some way. >> woodruff: well, you're referring to the massive collection of data about communications between people whether it's telephone and on the internet. we're going to have to leave it there. this is, clearly, something we're all going to be continuing to talk about. kate martin, stewart baker, we thank you both. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> ifill: paris is no stranger to tragedy. extremists have targeted the city a number of times in the past decade. the wounds were still fresh from this year's assault on a satirical magazine and jewish market when friday's attacks unfolded. we wondered why france, now, has become such a target? former new york times paris bureau chief elaine sciolino has been writing from france since

2002. she explains for us the social and political dynamics behind the recent violence. >> france has long had a north african muslim population. i mean, france colonized algeria, and many algerian muslims moved to france. this has been this way for decades. and most french muslims are well integrated into french society. but there is a huge swath of young people who are french citizens what doesn't feel french, that feels alienated. why? because there is terrible discrimination against muslims. france is suffering from a horrible economic crisis. unemployment in france is more than 10%. it's a record high. among young muslims, many of whom live in the troubled suburbs that ring paris and other major metropolitan areas, it's upwards of 40%. if you've got no hope. you've got no access to equal education or jobs or housing,

what are you going to do? it's very easy to take a bus from paris to istanbul and then go over land into syria. it's a kind of summer camp, a summer's terrorist training camp. to a certain extent, muslims in france feel stigmatized. there has been a law since 1905 that separates church and state. , or secularism, so the french national ideal of republican values is triumphant. but muslims don't often fit into this cookie-cutter model what it means to be french. muslim women, for example, believe they should wear a head scarf. in 2004, a law was passed banning the wearing of head scarves in french schools. it was couched as a general rule against ostensible signs of religion so that you couldn't wear a large christian cross, for example. but it was largely aimed at the

muslim population of france. there's, like, a cultural divide that is only going to get worse with these recent attacks because the far right is using these attacks to instill fear in the french population, that all immigration is bad, that there have to be more measures for law and order and protection of the country, and that somehow, immigration means muslims, means radicalization, means terrorism. paris is paris. paris has been under siege before. paris has seen a lot worse. and paris will thrive. >> woodruff: and we end the night at the cafes of paris, where haris sreenivasan finds the spirit of the city of lights still shines bright. >> sreenivasan: geraldine pamart

and charlise coqueda are art students who lost classmates in last friday's attack. yet tonight, they're back at a neighborhood cafe. >> she looked at me and she asked me is it a problem for you to be outside on the terrace? i said of course not. >> sreenivasan: why did you think it might be? >> ( translated ): we're a little scared, we watch cars go by and we wonder if there's one that's going to stop and a guy will take out his gun and shoot us. >> it's a personal choice. so, we understand that some french people are scared and change it a way what they do, we understand. we have to keep, you know, living a life. when i can stay at home never get out. we have to drink. ( laughs ) >> sreenivasan: around the corner, co-workers amber delmeida and orian lahcene were grabbing a drink after work.

>> ( translated ): i'm not saying that i was apprehensive on monday to go to work. but then i thought about it, if it has to happen to me it will happen to me. whatever happens, whether i'm here or there or anywhere, it could happen to me anywhere. i'm going to continue living just as i used to. >> it's like we're fighting against the terrorist doing this: being here and having a drink, drinking alcohol like we always do. >> sreenivasan: why was it important for you to be here? >> to show that they didn't win and that we are not scared. >> sreenivasan: manager teuca daniel has been working in the neighborhood for seven years. he says customers are coming back, but a few things are different. one -- more people are asking for seats by the window. >> ( translated ): they want to see what's happening, if something else to happen.

so they're trying to ask us if we are aware of something. they're still watching, they're still eating, they're still drinking. they're staying, but now they're something like that it's a difference because they're stressed and they put that stress on us also because they're trying to be very fast. and when they're gone, we all say "phew." >> sreenivasan: while this defiant attitude may work for some restaurants in the immediate areas of the attack, it will take more than social media hashtags to bring back business and settle nerves, especially considering what happened to cafes just down the street, just a few days ago. for the pbs newshour, hari sreenivasan, paris. >> woodruff: thank you, hari, for that special look. >> and that's the newshour for tonight. i'm judy woodruff. >> ifill: and i'm gwen ifill. join us online and again here tomorrow evening. for all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you and good night. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by:

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